Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[Sandman]

I didn't know the 262 was considered less advanced that the 31. Where was this stated?

[ManhattanProject972]

I dunno if I'm wrong or not, but wouldn't externally mounted missiles reduce the capabilities of a VF?

I know a VF itself can withstand Mach 5+ temperatures, but can their missiles also survive the heat?

If not, wouldn't that limit their ability to do a re-entry on an Earth-class planet?

[Ghostbear0]

So for a weird little wormhole one of the jokes if seen pop up ocasionaly is that Lady M is Gadget M. Chiba in drag this running across my mind did a why not trans which ran into thoughts about how Mikumo's nature shouldn't actually be a big deal since its the same basic origin of all pre war zentradi which looked back into could you use a variation of the miclone proces for things like gender reassignment or other types of gene therapy? With all the giant robots and dimensional weaponry we forget that macross has some fairly wild boimanipulation tech they don't explore to much.

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 8/22/2016 at 10:59 PM, Sandman said:

I didn't know the 262 was considered less advanced that the 31. Where was this stated?

Great Mechanics G hints at it in places, mentioning that technical advancements like EX-Gear have been left out of the design because the Windermereans have no need of the increased g-force resistance.

  On 8/25/2016 at 2:23 AM, ManhattanProject972 said:

I dunno if I'm wrong or not, but wouldn't externally mounted missiles reduce the capabilities of a VF?

I know a VF itself can withstand Mach 5+ temperatures, but can their missiles also survive the heat?

If not, wouldn't that limit their ability to do a re-entry on an Earth-class planet?

Without cheats like running the energy conversion armor in fighter mode or using the pin-point barrier, ~Mach 5 is pretty much the lower atmosphere speed limit for VFs due to atmospheric friction-heating of the fuselage. The few fighters noted to be able to exceed that don't seem to carry ordinance out on the wings (e.g. VF-27, YF-29).

The (New) UN Forces have ways of making high-speed reentry with missiles and bombs mounted out on the wings though... the reentry sleds from Macross 7 being one way of letting them make a ballistic reentry without exposing themselves to the intense heat such a course normally generates.

  On 8/25/2016 at 1:26 PM, Ghostbear0 said:

So for a weird little wormhole one of the jokes if seen pop up ocasionaly is that Lady M is Gadget M. Chiba in drag this running across my mind did a why not trans which ran into thoughts about how Mikumo's nature shouldn't actually be a big deal since its the same basic origin of all pre war zentradi which looked back into could you use a variation of the miclone proces for things like gender reassignment or other types of gene therapy? With all the giant robots and dimensional weaponry we forget that macross has some fairly wild boimanipulation tech they don't explore to much.

That's pretty much my running gag... made funnier by the reveal that Dr. Chiba is apparently one of her students.

Mikumo's origins really shouldn't be all that remarkable, since Humanity was making extensive use of cloning not even 40 years ago from Macross Delta's perspective and a decent-sized chunk of their population must be clones or the descendants thereof. Cloning is used casually by Zentradi troops too (that's how a micloning machine works), so you'd think "You're a clone?" would be delivered with the same surprise as finding out there's tapioca on the lunchroom menu today.

[Ghostbear0]

That's the sticker it's a common enough tech that there are certainly laws in place on the rights and responsibilities regarding the creation of adult skill implanted clones and I imagine it would involve letting them know what they are and not brainwashing them into your service.

[squaresphere]

  On 8/25/2016 at 6:19 PM, Ghostbear0 said:

That's the sticker it's a common enough tech that there are certainly laws in place on the rights and responsibilities regarding the creation of adult skill implanted clones and I imagine it would involve letting them know what they are and not brainwashing them into your service.

Well that's a great point for clones that were created for the purposed of filling the skill gap. How much autonomoy do they get after they're "born"? I mean it would not be cost effective to make a clone to be a mechanic if he decides to quit after a year to follow his dream of being the best bartender in the galaxy.

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 8/25/2016 at 6:57 PM, squaresphere said:

Well that's a great point for clones that were created for the purposed of filling the skill gap. How much autonomoy do they get after they're "born"? I mean it would not be cost effective to make a clone to be a mechanic if he decides to quit after a year to follow his dream of being the best bartender in the galaxy.

I've not seen anything to indicate they were treated as anything less than completely independent individuals. Presumably, given the extreme situation they were "born" into, they probably saw the necessity of doing what they were good at rather than chasing their dreams... and were probably made using volunteers.

[Aries Turner]

  On 8/25/2016 at 5:21 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Without cheats like running the energy conversion armor in fighter mode or using the pin-point barrier, ~Mach 5 is pretty much the lower atmosphere speed limit for VFs due to atmospheric friction-heating of the fuselage. The few fighters noted to be able to exceed that don't seem to carry ordinance out on the wings (e.g. VF-27, YF-29).

In the end, maybe there was a reason as to why the Kairos only had two hardpoints or the gunpod is partially shielded by the VF main body. Sure, having to extend for a clear shot before firing may seem a disadvantage, but the same is true for the VF-27 or YF-30 beampod that have to open before firing. It also can be deployed early on, at the penalty of air friction in the same levels as a regular gunpod.

[Zinjo]

  On 8/25/2016 at 5:21 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Mikumo's origins really shouldn't be all that remarkable, since Humanity was making extensive use of cloning not even 40 years ago from Macross Delta's perspective and a decent-sized chunk of their population must be clones or the descendants thereof. Cloning is used casually by Zentradi troops too (that's how a micloning machine works), so you'd think "You're a clone?" would be delivered with the same surprise as finding out there's tapioca on the lunchroom menu today.

THERE'S TAPIOCA IN THE LUNCH ROOM?!!

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 8/25/2016 at 10:51 PM, Zinjo said:

THERE'S TAPIOCA IN THE LUNCH ROOM?!!

Well, you didn't hear it from me...

REJOICE, BROTHERS! Macross Delta Vol.2 BD liner notes have specs for the Sv-262 Draken III! In M3 form:

Equipment Type: Variable Fighter

Government: Windermere Kingdom

Manufacturer: General Galaxy Corporation SV Works

Accommodation: Pilot only

Dimensions:

• Length: 17.54m (Sv-262Hs)
• Wingspan: 13.00m (Sv-262Hs)
• Height: 5.74m (Fighter), 15.78m (Battroid)

Mass: 9,810kg

ISC Max G-Load: 30.8G

Power Plant: Two P&W/RR/LAI FF-2999/FC2 Stage IIG thermonuclear reaction turbine engine

Propulsion: 2x 1,955kN (Hs type can increase output nearly 30% using reheat system)

Thrust-to-weight ratio: 40.642 (unboosted)

Performance: Mach 5.8+ at 10,000m (capable of independent flight to satellite orbit)

Design Features: 3-mode variable transformation, ISC/T021G inertia store converter, SWGA energy conversion armor, pinpoint barrier system, active stealth system, chaff/flare/smoke discharger, bulletproof shield.

Armament:

• 2x Ramington LM-27C 27mm railgun pod (right forearm)
• 1x General Galaxy GBP-35A beam gun pod
• 4x Micro-Missile Pod (detachable)
• 2x Lilldraken (armament options available)
• 2x Laser machine gun (Hs type only)

Armament: (Lilldraken)

• 1x 30mm beam cannon
• 4x Micro-Missile Launcher

Armament: (Lilldraken, Alternate)

• 1x Jamming System

In this day in age, Sv apparently doesn't stand for Sukhoi Variable anymore... it's "Slayer Valkyrie".

Edited August 25, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[kalvasflam]

General Galaxy eh? Wow, I wonder if they get sanctioned by NUNS for supplying arms to the wrong side. Would be like Lockheed Martin selling F-35 to Iran.

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 8/26/2016 at 12:37 AM, kalvasflam said:

General Galaxy eh? Wow, I wonder if they get sanctioned by NUNS for supplying arms to the wrong side. Would be like Lockheed Martin selling F-35 to Iran.

Back when I (like many others) was assuming the Draken III was an Epsilon product, I equated them to Gundam's Anaheim Electronics... selling weapons to both sides to ensure there would be ongoing conflicts to drive demand for those weapons and future developments. I'd be inclined to say that, with a good chunk of the galaxy still dependent on General Galaxy's VF designs and GG-built starships, they're probably "too big to prosecute" just like Anaheim is for much of the Universal Century.

[trojan_gambit]

So the official name for the drone is actually Lilldraken. I thought it was just a nickname ('Little Draken').

The 'SV Works' part reminds me of Skunkworks name.

[wakusei]

It was some design shop set up by one of the big designers in General Galaxy, who also did development for the SV-51 and the Lightning. There's some information on him in the VF-4 Master File.

The focus on the team was on VF vs VF combat, hence the name.

Epsilon purchased SV Works and that's how they got the Draken.

[This Confuses Gamlin]

  On 8/26/2016 at 3:15 AM, trojan_gambit said:

So the official name for the drone is actually Lilldraken. I thought it was just a nickname ('Little Draken').

It's a parallel to the development of the actual Draken: Saab 210.

[RedWolf]

  On 8/26/2016 at 12:37 AM, kalvasflam said:

General Galaxy eh? Wow, I wonder if they get sanctioned by NUNS for supplying arms to the wrong side. Would be like Lockheed Martin selling F-35 to Iran.

To me it is starting took like elements within General Galaxy is looking shadier than before. In Macross Dynamite 7 Loschier's black market was selling them new teal VF-17Ds. Macross Galaxy was sponsored by General Galaxy as well. Not to mention Epsilon Foundation is selling battleships similar to Macross Galaxy escorts.

Edited August 26, 2016 by RedWolf

[kalvasflam]

  On 8/26/2016 at 4:32 AM, RedWolf said:

Galaxy-Windermere ship comparison.png

Nice pictures of the fat Quarter and Harlock's long lost brother. The one advantage is that the Windermere ships seem to have better defined surface features, you can tell where the guns are, with the Galaxy ships, it isn't nearly as easy, you'd almost have to assume they are retractable or something. Too bad, would love to see those ships in actual action, but alas, this is not Yamato 2199.

  On 8/26/2016 at 2:58 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Back when I (like many others) was assuming the Draken III was an Epsilon product, I equated them to Gundam's Anaheim Electronics... selling weapons to both sides to ensure there would be ongoing conflicts to drive demand for those weapons and future developments. I'd be inclined to say that, with a good chunk of the galaxy still dependent on General Galaxy's VF designs and GG-built starships, they're probably "too big to prosecute" just like Anaheim is for much of the Universal Century.

Thanks for reminding me of Anaheim Electronics, talk about a bunch of war profiteers... hey guys, want this Gundam, how about a Sazabi here??? oh, try this Gundam with Fins instead of funnels. Crazy.

One nice thing they confirmed though on the spec sheet, no internal fold drive. So the Drakens must be either using boosters or have something dropping them off somehow.

Edited August 26, 2016 by kalvasflam

[squaresphere]

In a way this Winderemere war has been a fantastic piece of field marketing for Eplison. It's showing that it can stand toe toe with the latest 5th generation models (no need to disclose the pilots are using space wall hax ).

I'm a still a little confused on the use of ISC. Is that the system that keeps the pilots from turning into mush from G Forces or is it more of a structual integrity system? Hows does it's 30+G rating compare to the VF-31?

[azrael]

  On 8/26/2016 at 6:17 AM, kalvasflam said:

Thanks for reminding me of Anaheim Electronics, talk about a bunch of war profiteers... hey guys, want this Gundam, how about a Sazabi here??? oh, try this Gundam with Fins instead of funnels.

I need to look at the 1/72 kit manual (which looks like it is essentially the same text as the Vol. 2 liner notes) but it sounds more like Epsilon is essentially "buying" Sv-262s then selling them to Windermere. "SV Works" sounds like it's a General Galaxy-subsidiary who is majority-owned by an Epsilon subsidiary.

  Quote

One nice thing they confirmed though on the spec sheet, no internal fold drive. So the Drakens must be either using boosters or have something dropping them off somehow.

I believe Arad made a point about that in Ep 21 regarding how they are able to break through the fold fault surrounding the planet. I guess we'll find out soon. There is a note that due to the unusual transformation design, the Drakens have poor flight range in space since there's a lot less room for fuel.

  On 8/26/2016 at 2:01 PM, squaresphere said:

I'm a still a little confused on the use of ISC. Is that the system that keeps the pilots from turning into mush from G Forces or is it more of a structual integrity system?

Mainly column A, tiny tiny bit on column B.

  Quote

Hows does it's 30+G rating compare to the VF-31?

A VF-31 can do 29.5G. Will they ever hit those limits in practice? Probably not.

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 8/26/2016 at 3:15 AM, trojan_gambit said:

So the official name for the drone is actually Lilldraken. I thought it was just a nickname ('Little Draken').

Yep, it's using the Saab 210's name... which was the predecessor/prototype for the Saab J 35 Draken.

  On 8/26/2016 at 3:15 AM, trojan_gambit said:

The 'SV Works' part reminds me of Skunkworks name.

Not the first time General Galaxy has been caught doing that either... Macross Galaxy's in-house development group was the Guld Works, apparently named in honor of deceased General Galaxy contractor Guld Goa Bowman.

  On 8/26/2016 at 3:37 AM, wakusei said:

It was some design shop set up by one of the big designers in General Galaxy, who also did development for the SV-51 and the Lightning. There's some information on him in the VF-4 Master File.

The focus on the team was on VF vs VF combat, hence the name.

Epsilon purchased SV Works and that's how they got the Draken.

There are a couple problems with what you just said...

The General Galaxy SV Works were set up at the behest of Alexi Kurakin, once of the Anti-Unification Alliance... but they were not sold to Epsilon. All indications are that the Epsilon Foundation has been used as the go-between through which the Windermere Kingdom has been purchasing Draken III's from General Galaxy. Per Great Mechanics G, Windermere IV is an underdeveloped planet due to the difficulty of getting there through the fold faults surrounding the planet, so it seems a safe bet they don't have the technical infrastructure to produce the Draken III's locally under license. With the Windermere Kingdom effectively an independent power after its secession from the New UN Government in 2060, their interstellar trade is probably subject to much tighter restrictions and greater scrutiny than trade between NUNG member worlds... and thus they'd have to buy weapons under the table using sympathetic (unscrupulous) intermediaries like the Epsilon Foundation.

Also, General Galaxy had no role in the development of the VF-4 Lightning III. The company didn't even exist when the fighter was developed, and it was developed by the companies that merged to become the chief rival to General Galaxy: Stonewell, Bellcom, and Shinnakasu... the forerunners of Shinsei Industry.

  On 8/26/2016 at 4:32 AM, RedWolf said:

To me it is starting took like elements within General Galaxy is looking shadier than before. In Macross Dynamite 7 Loschier's black market was selling them new teal VF-17Ds. Macross Galaxy was sponsored by General Galaxy as well. Not to mention Epsilon Foundation is selling battleships similar to Macross Galaxy escorts.

At present, it's not clear how new the Windermere Kingdom's space fleet actually is. Windermere IV was colonized in 2027 and didn't secede from the New UN Government until 2060, so they had a lot of time to build up their fleet through entirely legitimate channels.

Considering what kalvasflam noted about being able to see visible gun turrets on the Windermere ships but not the Macross Galaxy ones, it's possible Windermere is using older versions of some of the General Galaxy ship designs that were updated for Macross Galaxy's use. It would be far from uncommon for a warship class to remain in production with updates for that span of time in Macross.

  On 8/26/2016 at 6:17 AM, kalvasflam said:

Nice pictures of the fat Quarter and Harlock's long lost brother. The one advantage is that the Windermere ships seem to have better defined surface features, you can tell where the guns are, with the Galaxy ships, it isn't nearly as easy, you'd almost have to assume they are retractable or something. Too bad, would love to see those ships in actual action, but alas, this is not Yamato 2199.

It may be that the Macross Galaxy versions are using high-angle beam cannons instead of turrets... that type of beam cannon uses a pin-point barrier-like deflection field to bend a beam coming out of a fixed gun port. The Mardook ships in Macross II: Lovers Again and Varauta ships in Macross 7 used these a lot.

  On 8/26/2016 at 6:17 AM, kalvasflam said:

One nice thing they confirmed though on the spec sheet, no internal fold drive. So the Drakens must be either using boosters or have something dropping them off somehow.

That isn't exactly surprising. A fold system is a big, unwieldy thing that isn't about to fit gracefully into a VF... even the compact fold boosters for fighters are still about the size of a Ghost or Lilldraken.

The only time we see the Aerial Knights arrive by fold and witness the fold effect close up behind them, a ship comes out... so it seems a safe bet they're riding inside the fold effect of a warship as is fairly common practice in the Macross universe.

  On 8/26/2016 at 2:01 PM, squaresphere said:

In a way this Winderemere war has been a fantastic piece of field marketing for Eplison. It's showing that it can stand toe toe with the latest 5th generation models (no need to disclose the pilots are using space wall hax ).

Not so much for Epsilon, who are intermediaries reselling the fighters to Windermere... but General Galaxy could probably be pretty smug about how their latest under-the-table toy is kicking a Shinsei-derived next main VF around like it's no big deal. One has to wonder if they'll slap some EX-Gear in that sucker and try to remarket it to the New UN Forces later on, like what happened with the captured Variable Glaug being produced as VA-110.

  On 8/26/2016 at 2:01 PM, squaresphere said:

I'm a still a little confused on the use of ISC. Is that the system that keeps the pilots from turning into mush from G Forces or is it more of a structual integrity system? Hows does it's 30+G rating compare to the VF-31?

In a word: "Yes".

Strictly speaking, it's not a structural integrity system in the Star Trek sense where they're running a force field through the structural frame to increase its resilience. It's a g-force displacement system that prevents the g-load on the airframe from exceeding the biological tolerances of the pilot and the design tolerances of the aircraft by converting the g-forces into dimensional shift energy and temporarily buffering it to clip the peaks and fill the valleys in the graph of experienced g-forces. The pilot and airframe experience a nice, gentle, survivable change in g-forces instead of sharp jumps during intense maneuvering. For humans, this is helped by the EX-Gear, which functions as a vital point stimulation seat that changes angle and position inside the aircraft's cockpit to optimize the pilot's blood flow and g-force stresses on the pilot's body, which helps prevent g-forces from reaching incapacitating levels. Windermereans are just made of sterner stuff, so they forego the EX-Gear.

Exactly how the Draken III's 30.8G ISC rating compares to the VF-31's is unclear, since the VF-31J spec didn't give us an ISC value for that fighter.

Curiously, the Draken III seems to be using an improved/enhanced variant of the same Inertia Store Converter employed in the VF-25 Messiah (ISC/TO21). The original TO21 was rated for 27.5G, and the TO21G used by the Draken III apparently offers a 12% improvement over the original model in terms of buffered g-forces. That puts it in the same league as the YF-29's ISC/TO22, which was rated for 30G.

[RedWolf]

Liner Notes translated by /m/ Anon

  Reveal hidden contents

What is the Sv-262 Draken III?

A variable fighter used by the Aerial Knights of the Kingdom of Windermeria.

Its roots can be traced back to the Unification War some 60 years ago.

Alexei Kurakin who headed the development of the SV-51 in the same era would later found General Galaxy. He predicted that that there would not only be fighting against Zentradi and humanity but amongst humanity and so he set up SV Works within General Galaxy for the purpose of always developing a VF that could always compete against the latest VF.

SV stands for Slayer Valkyrie or Slayer VF; in other words, it is an anti-VF VF.

Afterwards, Belger Stone of the Epsilon Foundation, who was interested in the high specs of the Sv-154 developed by SV Works, transferred ownership of the entirety of SV Works to the Dian Cécht Company, a subsidiary company under Epsilon.

The Sv-262 which was developed so as to also meet the demands of Windermere, is a state of the art variable fighter produced by SV Works.

It was designed as an interceptor and for base defense and exhibits incredible climb rate, acceleration, and mobility, but the amount of internal propellant it can hold is low and its range outside of the atmosphere is limited

The greatest feature of the fighters built for the aerial knights is the reheat system which is equipped with fold quartz excavated from the Protoculture ruins of Windermere. It is a device that is based on the same principle as the fold wave system but it is mainly purposed for overboosting, and while it does have fold wave relay and amplification functions, they are limited.

No wonder the Sv-262Hs can keep up with the VF-31 Siegfried's Fold Wave System, besides having a strong Fold Receptor pilot it has an inferior version of the Fold Wave System. The VF-31 Siegfried uses a version of the Fold Wave System used by the YF-29. Fold Dimensional Resonance System of the YF-30 is a more advanced version of the Fold Wave System.

It looks like Anti-UN Sv developers got integrated to General Galaxy and continued to develop Anti-VF units. The Zentradi Variable Glaug is speculated to be developed from General Galaxy and Macross Combine's VBP-1/VA-110 Neo Glaug. Data being leaked to rebel and Lost Zentradi.

However SV Works got bought by Epsilon Foundation that may not have necessarily Anti-UN motivations. Meaning we don't know what is Berger Stone's end game. Certainly he is playing all sides. NUNS, Anti-UN engineers and Windermere.

Edited August 26, 2016 by RedWolf

[Aries Turner]

  On 8/26/2016 at 3:53 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Curiously, the Draken III seems to be using an improved/enhanced variant of the same Inertia Store Converter employed in the VF-25 Messiah (ISC/TO21). The original TO21 was rated for 27.5G, and the TO21G used by the Draken III apparently offers a 12% improvement over the original model in terms of buffered g-forces. That puts it in the same league as the YF-29's ISC/TO22, which was rated for 30G.

Sorry for abusing your inside knowledge of the saga yet again, but it allways has confused me how the VF-25 g tolerances actually *dropped* from YF-19,-21 and VF-19,-22 numbers. Is that a *proof* that the VF-24 is a beast and VF-25,-26,-27,-29,-30,-31 are the F-16 Block 5-10 of the series: upgrades from colonial Star Mirages or VF-9s? Edited August 26, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 8/26/2016 at 4:55 PM, RedWolf said:

Liner Notes translated by /m/ Anon

  Reveal hidden contents

What is the Sv-262 Draken III?

A variable fighter used by the Aerial Knights of the Kingdom of Windermeria.

Its roots can be traced back to the Unification War some 60 years ago.

Alexei Kurakin who headed the development of the SV-51 in the same era would later found General Galaxy. He predicted that that there would not only be fighting against Zentradi and humanity but amongst humanity and so he set up SV Works within General Galaxy for the purpose of always developing a VF that could always compete against the latest VF.

SV stands for Slayer Valkyrie or Slayer VF; in other words, it is an anti-VF VF.

Afterwards, Belger Stone of the Epsilon Foundation, who was interested in the high specs of the Sv-154 developed by SV Works, transferred ownership of the entirety of SV Works to the Dian Cécht Company, a subsidiary company under Epsilon.

The Sv-262 which was developed so as to also meet the demands of Windermere, is a state of the art variable fighter produced by SV Works.

It was designed as an interceptor and for base defense and exhibits incredible climb rate, acceleration, and mobility, but the amount of internal propellant it can hold is low and its range outside of the atmosphere is limited

The greatest feature of the fighters built for the aerial knights is the reheat system which is equipped with fold quartz excavated from the Protoculture ruins of Windermere. It is a device that is based on the same principle as the fold wave system but it is mainly purposed for overboosting, and while it does have fold wave relay and amplification functions, they are limited.

No wonder the Sv-262Hs can keep up with the VF-31 Siegfried's Fold Wave System, besides having a strong Fold Receptor pilot it has an inferior version of the Fold Wave System. The VF-31 Siegfried uses a version of the Fold Wave System used by the YF-29. Fold Dimensional Resonance System of the YF-30 is a more advanced version of the Fold Wave System.

It looks like Anti-UN Sv developers got integrated to General Galaxy and continued to develop Anti-VF units. The Zentradi Variable Glaug is speculated to be developed from General Galaxy and Macross Combine's VBP-1/VA-110 Neo Glaug. Data being leaked to rebel and Lost Zentradi.

However SV Works got bought by Epsilon Foundation that may not have necessarily Anti-UN motivations. Meaning we don't know what is Berger Stone's end game. Certainly he is playing all sides. NUNS, Anti-UN engineers and Windermere.

This raises a few awkward questions... like why are the writers working at cross-purposes, indicating that the Sv-262 was designed and built by the General Galaxy SV Works and then saying it's actually built by a company named Dian Cecht?

Does this mean that Epsilon is merely financing the SV Works division, do they own a partial stake in it, or is Epsilon merely a dummy corporation run by General Galaxy from the shadows?

Insofar as the Anti-Unification Alliance personnel, they weren't integrated into General Galaxy... they apparently helped create General Galaxy from their positions inside the surviving manufacturers that merged to form it.

That bit about the Variable Glaug doesn't sound right... can you source it? Existing lore puts the Variable Glaug in service two full decades before the Neo Glaug was even prototyped, being that it was a derivative of a stolen VF-4A Lightning nicked by Zentradi rebels. The Neo Glaug was supposedly a Project Super Nova-era improved (unmanned) version and rival candidate to the AIF-X-9 Ghost.

  On 8/26/2016 at 5:31 PM, Aries Turner said:

Sorry for abusing your inside knowledge of the saga yet again, but it allways has confused me how the VF-25 g tolerances actually *dropped* from YF-19,-21 and VF-19,-22 numbers. Is that a *proof* that the VF-24 is a beast and VF-25,-26,-27,-29,-30,-31 are the F-16 Block 5-10 of the series: upgrades from colonial Star Mirages or VF-9s?

Don't you dare apologize for asking questions! Questions are like 90% of what I'm here for!

All told, that's an infuriating area where Macross Chronicle did not present information in a clear manner... which caused no end of confusion.

You see... we're never actually told what the airframe maximum design limit is. The Macross Chronicle Mechanic Sheet coverage of the VF-25, VF-27, etc. misuses the airframe maximum design load field to give the maximum g-forces the inertia store converter can buffer instead... so the Mechanic Sheet for the VF-25S, for example, just lists the g-limit as 27.5G+. The confusing way that was presented was exacerbated thanks to English language fansites copying Chronicle's presentation style for the info, making it seem as though airframes of the 5th Generation have somehow become more fragile despite being said to have a defensive strength that greatly exceeds the preceding generation's (and, in some cases, exceeds that of battleships).

The actual maximum G-limit of the airframe is the structural limit (unknown) plus an unknown percentage of the ISC limit (usually given). So even if structural strength didn't improve one jot from the VF-19's, we'd still be talking about a VF with an actual operational maximum g-load greater than the ISC output.

Come to think of it, that explains the VF-22 having a significantly greater maximum design load than the VF-19. The VF-22 had the ISC's little brother, the Quimeliquola inertia vector control system that was also used in the Queadluun-Rau and Queadluun-Rhea, which was good for buffering up to 18G for short spans of time. If the 60G maximum limit listed in the stats is its boosted g-limit, that'd mean its actual structural design limit is a more reasonable-for-the-period 42G.

(Mind you, even if the airframe's maximum design load and ISC design load were the same number N, that'd mean the fighter's total g-force endurance was 2N... the output of the ISC plus the fighter's physical g-limit... which would put the VF-25 at a respectable 55G anyway.)

EDIT: The YF-29 mechanic sheet in Macross Chronicle 2nd Edition has a well-camouflaged statement of the VF-25's structural g-limit. It's apparently 30.5G without the assistance of the ISC buffering up to 27.5G. The YF-29's is 40G, also without the ISC support buffering up to 32.5G.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[azrael]

  On 8/26/2016 at 7:21 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Does this mean that Epsilon is merely financing the SV Works division, do they own a partial stake in it, or is Epsilon merely a dummy corporation run by General Galaxy from the shadows?

It appears more like Epsilon has a majority stake in that subsidiary they own who in turn, owns or has a majority stake in SV Works who is a subsidiary of General Galaxy. Epsilon is suppose to be this huge corporation. The funny thing is, this happens in real life; this war of proxies. A company that could be own by, is a subsidiary, or is a majority stake or share holder through another company and they are in competition with another company who is owned by, a subsidiary of, or whatever of a larger company.

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 8/26/2016 at 8:14 PM, azrael said:

It appears more like Epsilon has a majority stake in that subsidiary they own who in turn, owns or has a majority stake in SV Works who is a subsidiary of General Galaxy. Epsilon is suppose to be this huge corporation. The funny thing is, this happens in real life; this war of proxies. A company that could be own by, is a subsidiary, or is a majority stake or share holder through another company and they are in competition with another company who is owned by, a subsidiary of, or whatever of a larger company.

Ah, yeah... now that's a familiar situation. I'm just trying to figure out why one side of the booklet says "General Galaxy SV Works" and the other says a subsidiary of Epsilon Foundation.

Incidentally, where was the 29.5G loading for the VF-31's ISC cited?

That puts the YF-29 on top of the known ISC systems with:

YF-29 - 32.5G

Sv-262 - 30.8G

VF-31 - 29.5G

VF-27 - 27.5G

VF-25 - 27.5G

[azrael]

  On 8/26/2016 at 9:56 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Incidentally, where was the 29.5G loading for the VF-31's ISC cited?

Bandai 1/72 VF-31 model kit. Not the PDF brochure. The actual model kit manual.

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10382560

[wakusei]

What I meant to say was that Kurakin himself, not GG, is credited as the man in charge of Lightning development.

  On 8/26/2016 at 3:53 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Also, General Galaxy had no role in the development of the VF-4 Lightning III. The company didn't even exist when the fighter was developed, and it was developed by the companies that merged to become the chief rival to General Galaxy: Stonewell, Bellcom, and Shinnakasu... the forerunners of Shinsei Industry.

[kalvasflam]

It would be interesting to see what the economics of the Macross Universe is like. You have several mega corps involved in armaments and ships, would be curious to see who does all of the consumer goods, and how much influence they have. If it is anything like us, those consumer corporation should be much more profitable and powerful to boot. Although the companies in the Macross universe appear to take on the characteristics of dai-kiretsus... a big set of conglomerates that does everything from starships to diapers.

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 8/26/2016 at 10:11 PM, azrael said:

Bandai 1/72 VF-31 model kit. Not the PDF brochure. The actual model kit manual.http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10382560

Duly noted and recorded, thank you.

Every little bit I add to my notes helps when His Marchness decides to start covering Delta.

  On 8/26/2016 at 11:01 PM, wakusei said:

What I meant to say was that Kurakin himself, not GG, is credited as the man in charge of Lightning development.

If it's not an imposition, where is Alexi mentioned in the VF-4 Master File?

I don't doubt you, but I've skimmed the book a few times now and I haven't found him yet. Is it one of those little marginal notes like the test pilot bios on pg29, or is he buried in a paragraph somewhere?

  On 8/26/2016 at 11:58 PM, kalvasflam said:

It would be interesting to see what the economics of the Macross Universe is like. You have several mega corps involved in armaments and ships, would be curious to see who does all of the consumer goods, and how much influence they have. If it is anything like us, those consumer corporation should be much more profitable and powerful to boot. Although the companies in the Macross universe appear to take on the characteristics of dai-kiretsus... a big set of conglomerates that does everything from starships to diapers.

Macross R gave us a bit of long-overdue insight into the world of non-defense corporate culture in the Macross universe... but it was still rather lopsided and oriented toward megacorporations, since the corporations featured were ones rich enough to sponsor their own Vanquish teams.

Apart from Oscar Brauhitsch of Team Shinsei, most of the teams were sponsored by corporations that dealt in the civilian domain. The most common were those interstellar shipping concerns like Bilra Transport Co., Viswa & Oder, and Tachyon Express (the latter of which is apparently Space UPS). There were a couple oddballs in there, like Skylab: a food service company that started as a coffee chain on Eden.

For a while there I think Kawamori was going a bit Ghost in the Shell with megacorporations influential enough to be a law unto themselves the way Macross Galaxy was as a branch of General Galaxy.

[wakusei]

The two page section dedicated to him starting from page 20.

  On 8/27/2016 at 12:21 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

If it's not an imposition, where is Alexi mentioned in the VF-4 Master File?

I don't doubt you, but I've skimmed the book a few times now and I haven't found him yet. Is it one of those little marginal notes like the test pilot bios on pg29, or is he buried in a paragraph somewhere?

[RedWolf]

  On 8/26/2016 at 7:21 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

That bit about the Variable Glaug doesn't sound right... can you source it? Existing lore puts the Variable Glaug in service two full decades before the Neo Glaug was even prototyped, being that it was a derivative of a stolen VF-4A Lightning nicked by Zentradi rebels. The Neo Glaug was supposedly a Project Super Nova-era improved (unmanned) version and rival candidate to the AIF-X-9 Ghost.

Here.

http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.org/MCRmechanic/Other04bVariableGuraajiNeoGuraaji.php

  Quote

Neo-Guraaji

An aircraft that is considered to have been a Zentraadi "Guraaji" Battle Pod -which were recovered by the Unified Forces after the First Interstellar War- that was studied and improved upon by the technology of the Earth side. Although the exterior and transformation mechanism are both basically shared with the Variable Guraaji, the relationship between both aircraft is unknown (it's likely that the Variable Guraaji is considered to be an aircraft based on the Neo-Guraaji that was improved upon by the Anti Unification Power. There's also a rumour that Sharon Apple hacked it, and it fought against the YF-19 in the Sharon Apple Incident in 2040. [source: Macross Plus -Game Edition-]*

Looks to me somebody leaked data to Zentradi so they can get performance data for Neo Glaug development. Which awfully sounds like how Critical Path did their business regarding the Sound Jamming System.

[Seto Kaiba]

  On 8/27/2016 at 12:34 AM, wakusei said:

The two page section dedicated to him starting from page 20.

Wow. OK, how did I miss THAT? The section's title is literally just his name.

  On 8/27/2016 at 12:45 AM, RedWolf said:

Here.http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.org/MCRmechanic/Other04bVariableGuraajiNeoGuraaji.php

Looks to me somebody leaked data to Zentradi so they can get performance data for Neo Glaug development. Which awfully sounds like how Critical Path did their business regarding the Sound Jamming System.

Yeah, like I said before that doesn't fit with the other sources that discuss the origins of the Variable Glaug and Neo Glaug. The writer of that sheet got the development timeline backwards, though at least his uncertainty is clear given that he didn't state that backwards relationship as a fact.

Macross M3 and Macross R's descriptions both establish that the Neo Glaug was developed for the AVF Program in the late 2030's by the Macross Concern. They used the EVA (Enemy Valkyrie) based on the Glaug which Zentradi rebels created using stolen/leaked overtechnology (from the VF-4) in the late 2010's. The Neo Glaug was created first in production terms, but in the story the Variable Glaug was developed a good twenty years before the Neo Glaug was even conceived.

(That isn't to say rogue Anti-UN sympathetic engineers weren't involved... as we've been told they had a hand in helping develop all the EVA units.)

[azrael]

  On 8/27/2016 at 12:21 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Duly noted and recorded, thank you.

Every little bit I add to my notes helps when His Marchness decides to start covering Delta.

Correction, it is on the 1/72's brochure. But the manual has some other tidbits. I should probably find some better scans.

[kalvasflam]

  On 8/27/2016 at 12:21 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Macross R gave us a bit of long-overdue insight into the world of non-defense corporate culture in the Macross universe... but it was still rather lopsided and oriented toward megacorporations, since the corporations featured were ones rich enough to sponsor their own Vanquish teams.

Apart from Oscar Brauhitsch of Team Shinsei, most of the teams were sponsored by corporations that dealt in the civilian domain. The most common were those interstellar shipping concerns like Bilra Transport Co., Viswa & Oder, and Tachyon Express (the latter of which is apparently Space UPS). There were a couple oddballs in there, like Skylab: a food service company that started as a coffee chain on Eden.

For a while there I think Kawamori was going a bit Ghost in the Shell with megacorporations influential enough to be a law unto themselves the way Macross Galaxy was as a branch of General Galaxy.

It would make sense though, the mega corporations would be the ones having all the resources to go into space, as well as do these prohibitively expensive colonies. One does wonder about the power dynamics of the government as it relates to these corporations. I would assume it would be in NUNS best interest to have no monopolies, may be like the era of the late 70s, early 80s, where there were at least six different aerospace companies trying to get contracts for US government dollars. Consolidation ended up making things far less efficient. Epsilon for example seem to be a little too powerful in this universe, after all, the closest equivalent I could think of is McDonald Douglas selling F-15s to the US, and at the same time selling F-18s to the Soviet Union, that seems to be what they are doing, and they seem to be getting away with it.

[wakusei]

Very rough translation of the Kurakin section, which I translated for some reason.

I'm also the anon who did the Draken text.

  Reveal hidden contents

Alexi Kurakin

Fortunately for humanity, the leader of the VF-4 project, Alexi Kurakin, miraculously survived the interstellar war. Kurakin was the man who led the VF-4 project from start to finish, but he had once been a member of the ASS-1 survey team and later developed the SV-51 variable fighter under the Anti-Unification Alliance. However, he had been simply working under the powers in control of his motherland and not out of any political ideology.

The SV-51 was considered to possess performance equivalent to the VF-0 or better in certain conditions and greatly impacted development of the VF-1. After making the SV-51, he defected to the UN government. Under the United Nations military prior to Space War 1, Kurakin worked as a civilian engineer in the VF-1’s development, after which he became a contracted employee of Stonewell Belcom, where he suddenly was left in charge of the VF-4 project. This was of course because they recognized his ability in the creation of the SV-51 which had rivaled the VF-0 in performance.

A development division and factory for the VF-4 project were built on South Ataria, and when a section and work space were set up inside the SDF-1 Macross, Kurakin assigned his deputy chief, who could be called his right hand, to lead the section while he would work on the island. The section chief was Oleg Fedorov, who traveled with the SDF-1 in its so-called journey back to Earth.

On the day of the SDF-1 Macross’ launching ceremony and the attack on South Ataria by Britai’s fleet, Federov witnessed the activation of the SDF-1’s booby trap while attending the ceremony and immediately went to inspect his section in the ship. The SDF-1 then executed a space fold, and Federov and the other engineers who escaped no longer had the luxury to carry out their research and were tasked with maintenance, repair, and upgrading of the VF-1 squadrons. The valuable findings they gained from handling actual combat aircraft proved to be invaluable in later upgrades to the VF-1 and tactical analysis and would be passed on to the VF-4 project, needless to say.

On the day the SDF-1 folded out, Kurakin, also at the ceremony, avoided catastrophe by boarding a transport plane or helicopter escaping from the island. He was taken in by a nearby UN Navy carrier and changed his base of operations to work on the VF-4 project. He was based at the Grand Cannon in Alaska but luckily for him he was moved to the Apollo base with a test model right before the battle against the Bodol main fleet. Having survived Space War 1, he was directly commissioned by the UN Spacy to continue work on the VF-4 project. This was because the competing VF-3 Project was lost along with its staff due to the attack by the Bodol main fleet, and the survivors of the original VF-1 development team had their hands full with improving the VF-1. Federov also joined his project.

Through part of the development of the VF-4 series, Kurakin sought to achieve an airframe that surpassed the VF-1 in aerial maneuverability. To do that he even thought that transformation was unnecessary, but it wasn’t that he dismissed the idea. As evidence to that, for all models he made prototypes that could transform. He had later said, “The VF’s transformation is like a sudden mutation in the genes of an organism and if used in the right manner it could break stalemates or snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. I hoped it would serve as a catalyst in extend the conscious of a pilot." Kurakin himself had developed the SV-51 before the interstellar war and could not have anticipated the full scope of the transforming ability of the VF. He hoped that the added functionality to the fighter aircraft would create something that surpassed the expectations of its designers, and that it would be created by pilots placed in extreme situations. The fact of the matter is that there had been numerous reports of dramatic comebacks in situations where transformation was used by some skilled VF-1 pilots, and it was by reflecting those lessons learned in combat to the whole that the VF gained superiority over all else as a tactical weapon used by individuals. This is ultimately due to such possibilities and versatility being incorporated since the birth of the VF, but Kurakin’s genius was that he had implemented these uncertain factors while presenting a convincing and concrete argument to get permission for development from the military.

However there was a reason why even Kurakin had to give up on adding the transforming mechanism to the VF-4. The transforming mechanism of the VF-4 was excluded due to constraints that prevented sufficient enough time to be allocated to R&D and also because he was in agreement with the UN Spacy, which desired a fighter that would be easier to achieve flying qualifications for than the transformable VF-1 in order to get as many pilots into combat as possible. As a result, the VF-4 in all of its variations came to have specs surpassing the VF-1 and had the high evaluation of surpassing the VF-1 in operating rates and maintainability. After development of the VF-4, Kurakin did not join Shinsei Industries but created General Galaxy, and though the number of models that did end up being mass produced were few, he did create many excellent variable fighters.

Kurakin foresaw that with humanity’s sudden emergence into galactic space, it would be fighting against humanity that would escalate more than that against Zentradi. The main weapon in a war of humans versus humans would be the VF. Kurakin set up the SV design division as a special development team in General Galaxy. The SV design division worked on designs of “anti-VF VFs,” and there is talk of prototyping and limited run production, but this is of course top secret and the facts of it are unknown. There are also rumors of field testing on colony planets such those on the frontier.

As these aircraft constantly possessed maneuverability surpassing the mainstream fighters of the UN Spacy at all times, they were called VF-killers. It is also said that the SV in SV development division is Slayer of VF or Slayer of Valkyrie.

If the VFs made by Shinsei Industry are the yang, then the VFs made by General Galaxy as their yang counterparts could be said to have made great contributions to improving each other’s and all of the galaxy’s VF technology. Kurakin died in 2036, but up until then he personally led the development of a new fighter (what became the VF-9 Cutlass). And even now General Galaxy is continuing to produce VF-Killers.

Edited August 28, 2016 by wakusei