Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[Ghostbear0]

My favorite part is that the glass jets are an inferior track for the purpose than available anti-grav. So their using less advanced and sillier looking tech to look less like strait up magical girls.

[RedWolf]

My favorite part is that the glass jets are an inferior track for the purpose than available anti-grav. So their using less advanced and sillier looking tech to look less like strait up magical girls.

Well tech wise it does seem less exotic compared to air blades or hover boards that we've seen in the setting.

edit:

I wondering why the Japanese wikipedia page on Zentradi mechanical weapons says the movie Thurvel-Salan has a main gun. Re-watching DYRL I saw its front hull split firing an energy convergence canon in front of Golg Boddole Zer's ship.

Given the lack of any Battle classes in the Brisingr cluster if we take DYRL mechanic as preferred canon then that Thurvel-Salan was Al Shahal's big stick as it were.

No wonder the first target was the Zentradi garrison. If NUNS Zentradi ships in the region provide the extra fire power then it is possible Windermere targeted them specifically so they'd be assigned elsewhere before they declared war.

Edited July 29, 2016 by RedWolf

[Seto Kaiba]

My favorite part is that the glass jets are an inferior track for the purpose than available anti-grav. So their using less advanced and sillier looking tech to look less like strait up magical girls.

Thus far, we haven't seen any applications of gravity control technology small enough to be worn or even ridden. Personal hover or flight gear like Air Blades or EX-Gear stay aloft by thrust the same as any modern hovercraft or airplane. Those chemical rockets are likely the most compact way to get the necessary thrust they could find...

[RedWolf]

Thus far, we haven't seen any applications of gravity control technology small enough to be worn or even ridden. Personal hover or flight gear like Air Blades or EX-Gear stay aloft by thrust the same as any modern hovercraft or airplane. Those chemical rockets are likely the most compact way to get the necessary thrust they could find...

Macross Frontier episode 1 we see a high school boy ride a hover board.

[tout-puissant]

There may be some limited application of anti-grave but for gravity (and inertial) negation purposes, allowing the girls to use the jets for propulsion a whole lot easier. Furthermore, the opaque underwear is supplemented by a transparent skin-tight suit, and ARGUABLY a helmet in some cases as Reina was wearing one when she jumped out of Chuck's plane in episode 1, where it promptly disappeared as her outfit transformed. I'd guess that the fold projector stuff effectively works as a hard light hologram too, so people can have their outfits (and hair!) change, be blown around, and perhaps even be discarded as needed.

And no, it's NOT magic. We're just supposed to accept it.

Mark

[Seto Kaiba]

Macross Frontier episode 1 we see a high school boy ride a hover board.

IIRC, we see the bottom of one that someone's set against the locker room wall in a later episode and it has two lift fans on the bottom.

[RedWolf]

And no, it's NOT magic. We're just supposed to accept it.

Mark

Reina Prowler: It's not Magic it's SCIENCE!

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] Furthermore, the opaque underwear is supplemented by a transparent skin-tight suit, [...]

That's the part that annoys me... there's no reason for the bodysuit to be transparent, or for the harness to look like underwear. It's pure fanservice.

If the holographic technology can produce the appearance of bare skin through an opaque suit and a projector that appears to be no bigger than a cell phone jogging armband, why does the Walkure version need to look like underwear and have a clear bodysuit? It's not like this is effing Dirty Pair.

[Ghostbear0]

There may be some limited application of anti-grave but for gravity (and inertial) negation purposes, allowing the girls to use the jets for propulsion a whole lot easier. Furthermore, the opaque underwear is supplemented by a transparent skin-tight suit, and ARGUABLY a helmet in some cases as Reina was wearing one when she jumped out of Chuck's plane in episode 1, where it promptly disappeared as her outfit transformed. I'd guess that the fold projector stuff effectively works as a hard light hologram too, so people can have their outfits (and hair!) change, be blown around, and perhaps even be discarded as needed.

And no, it's NOT magic. We're just supposed to accept it.

Mark

I'd say their shield drones fit the bill. Also they are magical girls all the fold resonance stuff is magic. Being able to kinda sort sometimes guess what it will do with hypertech does not make it not magic. "Sufuciantly advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." I really wish I could remember what book I stole that from.

[kalvasflam]

That's the part that annoys me... there's no reason for the bodysuit to be transparent, or for the harness to look like underwear. It's pure fanservice.

If the holographic technology can produce the appearance of bare skin through an opaque suit and a projector that appears to be no bigger than a cell phone jogging armband, why does the Walkure version need to look like underwear and have a clear bodysuit? It's not like this is effing Dirty Pair.

I disagree, it is not fan service, it is distraction, look at what it does to Bogue, if Mikumo show some skin or Makina show a little boobs, Bogue will totally forget himself for a second. Think about it, you're a jet jockey knifing through the sky, suddenly a giant hologram of a half naked hologram of some girl shows up, odds are, you are going to get distracted for a sec.. just enough to make a critical difference in combat.

[JB0]

I'd say their shield drones fit the bill. Also they are magical girls all the fold resonance stuff is magic. Being able to kinda sort sometimes guess what it will do with hypertech does not make it not magic. "Sufuciantly advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." I really wish I could remember what book I stole that from.

Arthur C. Clarke said it. He has been quoted on the subject quite a lot in quite a few places.

And I think it is kind of funny that the part most everyone is taking at face value(ANIMA SPIRITIA!!!!!) is far closer to magic than the part everyone is complaining about(jetpacks and holograms).

Edited July 30, 2016 by JB0

[Ghostbear0]

I thought Clark was "Sufficiently andvanced technology is indisringuosable from magic." the one I have was a riff on that in a book with actual magic.

And yeah while macross phyisics and tech are probably better explained with magic the same can be said for most sci-fi but the fold resonance/Anima spirita stuff is full stop magic.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'd say their shield drones fit the bill. Also they are magical girls all the fold resonance stuff is magic. Being able to kinda sort sometimes guess what it will do with hypertech does not make it not magic. "Sufuciantly advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." I really wish I could remember what book I stole that from.

Strictly speaking, given what's been established in prior Macross titles about the relationship between the human mind and higher dimensions this is not "magic" per se... what's going on here is arguably advanced and unconventional clinical psychiatry.

Walkure is using the human(oid) mind's natural connection to higher dimension space as a means to deliver treatment for an artificial, biologically-induced mental disorder that causes extreme aggression. The treatment is nothing more than introducing an external brainwave that neutralizes the factor triggering the Var syndrome outbreak. I suppose, in a way, it's like shooting someone in the grip of depression with a dartgun full of uppers.

I'd argue that, in order to be "magic" it would have to 1. defy technological detection and scientific measurement and 2. defy physics in some way (e.g. to violate conservation of matter and energy by producing a fireball out of thin air). This is doing neither, as the biological fold waves are traveling via a means that is well understood and scientifically quantified in the setting of the series, and it's operating entirely within the bounds of the physics that have been established for same.

"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology" as the inverse of a statement Clark made about sufficiently advanced technology. The number of authors who've cited the inverse is significant, so I don't know who precisely posited it originally...

I disagree, it is not fan service, it is distraction, look at what it does to Bogue, if Mikumo show some skin or Makina show a little boobs, Bogue will totally forget himself for a second.

The problem with this rationale is that it doesn't fit with Walkure's tactics even slightly. This is the sort of thing you'd use against the Zentradi, that would play on existing culture shock tactics and their standing orders not to mix genders.

Walkure doesn't intervene in combat directly like that. Their entire strategy is to neutralize Var syndrome via their fold songs. Their physical appearance has zero effect on the matter... it's all about the biological fold waves the girls transmit. They could be dressed like nuns and it wouldn't matter to the actual Var-neutralizing impact of their songs.

There's no tactical advantage to what you're proposing, becuase people who're suffering from Var syndrome are too lost in their murderfrenzy to give a toss what Walkure are wearing. Plus, the only member of the Aerial Knights who has shown any adverse reaction to seeing Walkure is Bogue, and that reaction came not from seeing them practically naked... but seeing them, period. In show it has no impact, it's JUST FANSERVICE.

And I think it is kind of funny that the part most everyone is taking at face value(ANIMA SPIRITIA!!!!!) is far closer to magic than the part everyone is complaining about(jetpacks and holograms).

Well, yeah... to those who didn't pay attention in Macross 7 and Macross Frontier it would be. To those who did, it's not even sufficiently advanced technology. It's just sci-fi technology.

I thought Clark was "Sufficiently andvanced technology is indisringuosable from magic." the one I have was a riff on that in a book with actual magic.

And yeah while macross phyisics and tech are probably better explained with magic the same can be said for most sci-fi but the fold resonance/Anima spirita stuff is full stop magic.

See my above explanation of why it's not.

[JB0]

I thought Clark was "Sufficiently andvanced technology is indisringuosable from magic." the one I have was a riff on that in a book with actual magic.

You are right, my internal editor corrected your quote without me noticing.

Terry Pratchett, maybe? It is a very Discworld thing to do.

[kalvasflam]

The problem with this rationale is that it doesn't fit with Walkure's tactics even slightly. This is the sort of thing you'd use against the Zentradi, that would play on existing culture shock tactics and their standing orders not to mix genders.

Walkure doesn't intervene in combat directly like that. Their entire strategy is to neutralize Var syndrome via their fold songs. Their physical appearance has zero effect on the matter... it's all about the biological fold waves the girls transmit. They could be dressed like nuns and it wouldn't matter to the actual Var-neutralizing impact of their songs.

There's no tactical advantage to what you're proposing, becuase people who're suffering from Var syndrome are too lost in their murderfrenzy to give a toss what Walkure are wearing. Plus, the only member of the Aerial Knights who has shown any adverse reaction to seeing Walkure is Bogue, and that reaction came not from seeing them practically naked... but seeing them, period. In show it has no impact, it's JUST FANSERVICE.

Walkure do get involved in combat, whether they like it or not, if you think about the number of times they are on the battle field singing, they are in fact tactical weapons, they do two things, innoculate the pilots on one side, and attempt to cure the Var out of opposing pilots.

However, they make extensive use of holograms in many of those combat situation, so the "fan service" could be a potential point of distraction for combatants. The only thing that is potentially troubling is that it could distract the pilots on their side if not properly directed. Think about it, it would be a fun little weapon if there is a projector mounted on the Valks... which hey, there already are. And distraction at that level could be deadly, there are two dozen micro missiles coming at you, and all of a sudden, a giant fan service Makina flashes in your eyes... if that's not a distraction, even momentarily, then you're not a biological. It's just that moment where you might get killed.

[This Confuses Gamlin]

The only thing that is potentially troubling is that it could distract the pilots on their side if not properly directed. Think about it, it would be a fun little weapon if there is a projector mounted on the Valks... which hey, there already are. And distraction at that level could be deadly, there are two dozen micro missiles coming at you, and all of a sudden, a giant fan service Makina flashes in your eyes... if that's not a distraction, even momentarily, then you're not a biological. It's just that moment where you might get killed.

Athletes often mention training themselves to be able to perform while ignoring the numerous distractions going on around them. It would have helped to show Delta and the other Xaos flights practicing with the full holoshow going on so we know that they're used to it, but that would have stolen some of the effect on the anime audience of seeing the concerts for the first time.

In Episode 6, they do split the units so that Delta is the only group that has to fight near their own self-generated spectacle. Probably they would also separate like that if Delta/Walküre had to cooperate with a regular NUNS unit that's not prepared for psychological weirdness.

Though Episodes 1 and 6 are thus far the only instances of large holograms appearing in a battle.

This idea is just for laughs: Alternatively, everyone in NUNS spends their downtime watching idol videos and ecchi. So they're desensitized in case the battle comes down to having to flash gigantic holographic oppai at the enemy.

Edited July 30, 2016 by This Confuses Gamlin

[Seto Kaiba]

Walkure do get involved in combat, whether they like it or not, if you think about the number of times they are on the battle field singing, they are in fact tactical weapons, they do two things, innoculate the pilots on one side, and attempt to cure the Var out of opposing pilots.

At best, they're usually on the periphery of the battlefield... and focused entirely on fold songs to negate Var syndrome in the afflicted and protect Delta Flight from the obset of Var syndrome. They don't take any kind of direct role in combat except to defend themselves when attacked.

However, they make extensive use of holograms in many of those combat situation, so the "fan service" could be a potential point of distraction for combatants. The only thing that is potentially troubling is that it could distract the pilots on their side if not properly directed.

Walkure makes relatively limited use of holograms... in fact, for most of their performances on the battlefield the only thing they use holograms for is costumes. They don't seem to use any kind of active or large-scale holograms when they're operating in close proximity to the battlefield, and the reason is probably the very one you just named: it's not something that they can target just the enemy with. The chances are equal or better that they'll distract a friendly pilot and get them killed.

There's no in-story justification for it... it's JUST fanservice, nothing more.

[Phoenix1]

I'd guess that the fold projector stuff effectively works as a hard light hologram too, so people can have their outfits (and hair!) change, be blown around, and perhaps even be discarded as needed.

Any native Japanese speakers willing to translate the short around? Kaname says something about the fold projector using fold carbon to materialize the outfits, but that's as far as I can make out.

It's pretty cool that the Macross universe finally has a form of hard-light tech, though.

[RedWolf]

Huh? Just noticed the Dulfim type can fire like Supervision gunship and Meltrandi gunship without the the whole split transformation.

Windermere's Deneb variant don't seem equipped as a gunship. The Catamaran-type of theirs half serves a gunship it seems while the other a carrier.

edit:

We finally got a name for those portals Mega Fold Gates. Which suspiciously sounds like Super Dimensional Energy Gates technology that led to the Protodevlin entering the universe.

From what I understand from Macross Chronicle Technology sheet on Space Fold says Fold can appear differently due to circumstances. Folds we see were it is instantaneous with a bubble effect is that ships are wrapped in a warp bubble and fold at short ranges while those which are not instantaneous or using portals are super long range folds. The third time of folding is at super-luminal speeds done by Protodevlin like Sivil and Gravil.

Edited August 1, 2016 by RedWolf

[Raptor One]

I'd say their shield drones fit the bill. Also they are magical girls all the fold resonance stuff is magic. Being able to kinda sort sometimes guess what it will do with hypertech does not make it not magic. "Sufuciantly advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." I really wish I could remember what book I stole that from.

Isn't the modified quote "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology"?

[RedWolf]

Isn't the modified quote "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from technology"?

Actually...

Agatha Hetrodyne: "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from SCIENCE!"

Fairy Godmother Zeetha: What is with the quotation marks? Who said that?

Agatha Hetrodyne: ME!

[JB0]

Actually...

Agatha Hetrodyne: "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from SCIENCE!"

Fairy Godmother Zeetha: What is with the quotation marks? Who said that?

Agatha Hetrodyne: ME!

A. great comic.

B. I searched it up, and le wikiz sez:

"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.

It has been called "Niven's Law" and attributed to Larry Niven by some, and to Terry Pratchett by others, but without any citation of an original source in either case, and the earliest occurrence yet located is in Keystone Folklore (1984) by the Pennsylvania Folklore Society."

It sure SOUNDS like a Pratchett quote, but apparently can't be connected to him.

[Zinjo]

And I think it is kind of funny that the part most everyone is taking at face value(ANIMA SPIRITIA!!!!!) is far closer to magic than the part everyone is complaining about(jetpacks and holograms).

Well I don't, as I am not one of those who so highly regards AS as depicted in M7, but that's me not accepting a poorly excecuted series. At least Delta is making an attempt at explaining that song and emotion have an affect on fold waves to those with the ability. Getting away from the incredibility of tangible, tactile abilities of song introduced in M7 is a welcome change.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

edit:

We finally got a name for those portals Mega Fold Gates. Which suspiciously sounds like Super Dimensional Energy Gates technology that led to the Protodevlin entering the universe.

From what I understand from Macross Chronicle Technology sheet on Space Fold says Fold can appear differently due to circumstances. Folds we see were it is instantaneous with a bubble effect is that ships are wrapped in a warp bubble and fold at short ranges while those which are not instantaneous or using portals are super long range folds. The third time of folding is at super-luminal speeds done by Protodevlin like Sivil and Gravil.

I always wondered if the warp bubble was more of a defensive barrier used for PC capital ship retreats. A barrier forms and the ship folds a short distance to escape. It would nicely explain that the SDF-1 always had an omni-barrier but mankind had not found out how to initiate it and triggered it when they performed their emergency fold. The loss of the fold drives severely compromised the the barrier and it became a pin point barrier as a result. It took a few decades before they re-discovered the tech (my personal theory, not official).

Edited August 3, 2016 by Zinjo

[Ghostbear0]

Biofold resonance= song energy= Anima spirita= magic. Its all magic the rest are just terms to fool themselves that they understand what's happening.

[Zinjo]

Biofold resonance= song energy= Anima spirita= magic. Its all magic the rest are just terms to fool themselves that they understand what's happening.

Nah. M7 introduced tangible properties to singing a song (aka song energy) that were never explained outside of the enigmatic term of "Anima Spiritia" and were far too difficult for a reasonable person to take, yet the audience was supposed to swallow it. Some drank the coolaid, but apparently many didn't according to SK's later assertions about M7 and the Macross fanbase.

I would wager a Macross researcher can fully explain the concepts introduced in this series in a very technical manner. Granted, like with all SF you will have fudging, but I am doubtful it will be sufficient to dismiss as "magic".

Gundam has it's Minofsky particle and Newtypes, Nadesico has their Tulips, Star Trek has warp drive and I could go on. All SF series have their "speculative bridges" to take us beyond what we know now. Macross is no different, only they are currently focusing on music as that is their niche and their current marketing excuse to sell a mecha show on Japanese TV.

Once upon a time, fire was considered magic until we understood how to make it.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Zinjo

[Sandman]

Nah. M7 introduced tangible properties to singing a song (aka song energy) that were never explained outside of the enigmatic term of "Anima Spiritia" and were far too difficult for a reasonable person to take, yet the audience was supposed to swallow it. Some drank the coolaid, but apparently many didn't according to SK's later assertions about M7 and the Macross fanbase.

What are these assertions SK made about M7 and the macross fanbase?

[Sir Galahad®]

What are the requirements for a VF to have Ex-Gear Installed? Since the VF-22S has one installed too.

[Ghostbear0]

What are these assertions SK made about M7 and the macross fanbase?

Mythical statements about how (insert things I don't like about the franchise here) aren't actually canon most likely.

[RedWolf]

According to Macross Delta novelization vol 1 by Kodachi Ukyo the Sv-154 was called the Sv-154 Svärd, meaning Sword in Swedish.

Edited August 4, 2016 by RedWolf

[JB0]

I always wondered if the warp bubble was more of a defensive barrier used for PC capital ship retreats. A barrier forms and the ship folds a short distance to escape. It would nicely explain that the SDF-1 always had an omni-barrier but mankind had not found out how to initiate it and triggered it when they performed their emergency fold. The loss of the fold drives severely compromised the the barrier and it became a pin point barrier as a result. It took a few decades before they re-discovered the tech (my personal theory, not official).

Definitely not official, since the TV series explicitly states in Daedalus Attack and Global Report that the Macross's* barrier systems were built by humans, using the energy that appeared in the engine room after the fold accident. (Which makes it the first human use of what we now know as fold energy, and the episode carried the implication that the phenomenon was largely unknown at the time.)

The zentradi were also unfamiliar with barrier systems, and they had no small degree of experience with the supervision army's capabilities. The implication in SDF is that it was a completely new technology... and then Delta happened.

It actually kind of bothers me that the protoculture vessels apparently have barriers, though it isn't near as egregious a retcon as fold faults were(yes, I'm still hung up on that one).

*Should it be the Macross-1 nowadays? There's too many vessels with Macross in their name for "just Macross" to be really clear. 'S as bad as the Enterprise. SDF-1 Macross feels clumsy, and just SDF-1 tastes like Robotech to me.

[Ghostbear0]

Definitely not official, since the TV series explicitly states in Daedalus Attack and Global Report that the Macross's* barrier systems were built by humans, using the energy that appeared in the engine room after the fold accident. (Which makes it the first human use of what we now know as fold energy, and the episode carried the implication that the phenomenon was largely unknown at the time.)

The zentradi were also unfamiliar with barrier systems, and they had no small degree of experience with the supervision army's capabilities. The implication in SDF is that it was a completely new technology... and then Delta happened.

It actually kind of bothers me that the protoculture vessels apparently have barriers, though it isn't near as egregious a retcon as fold faults were(yes, I'm still hung up on that one).

*Should it be the Macross-1 nowadays? There's too many vessels with Macross in their name for "just Macross" to be really clear. 'S as bad as the Enterprise. SDF-1 Macross feels clumsy, and just SDF-1 tastes like Robotech to me.

Its still the Macross that is it's name. The rest of the Macrosses are using it as a class name like what ahappened with the Drednought. Unless battle 1 was actually named New Macross and that is why that class is called the new Macross class.

[JB0]

Actually, we know the seventh of the New Macross-class is called the Macross 7. And the fifth was Macross-5...

Actually, it seems all the New Macross class are "Macross-Number"... and the first New Macross is the Macross-1. Never mind then.

I still feel just Macross is as ambiguous as just Enterprise, but I shall continue to wing it.

[RedWolf]

Definitely not official, since the TV series explicitly states in Daedalus Attack and Global Report that the Macross's* barrier systems were built by humans, using the energy that appeared in the engine room after the fold accident. (Which makes it the first human use of what we now know as fold energy, and the episode carried the implication that the phenomenon was largely unknown at the time.)

The zentradi were also unfamiliar with barrier systems, and they had no small degree of experience with the supervision army's capabilities. The implication in SDF is that it was a completely new technology... and then Delta happened.

It actually kind of bothers me that the protoculture vessels apparently have barriers, though it isn't near as egregious a retcon as fold faults were(yes, I'm still hung up on that one).

*Should it be the Macross-1 nowadays? There's too many vessels with Macross in their name for "just Macross" to be really clear. 'S as bad as the Enterprise. SDF-1 Macross feels clumsy, and just SDF-1 tastes like Robotech to me.

Macross 7 showed the Protoculture ruin of Rax which rose up from the mantle responding to Basara's song had its AI deploy a barrier Gavil.

More Macross 7 reference with Mikumo. Not only is her hair can move and act like Sivil's but Mikumo had a bubble barrier like Sivil did.

[Ghostbear0]

Actually, we know the seventh of the New Macross-class is called the Macross 7. And the fifth was Macross-5...

Actually, it seems all the New Macross class are "Macross-Number"... and the first New Macross is the Macross-1. Never mind then.

I still feel just Macross is as ambiguous as just Enterprise, but I shall continue to wing it.

Many we've heard the 5, 7, 11, and 13 referee to by their hull number but the 21 and 25 are the Galaxy and Frontier. So maybe the others had names but more people just used the hull number which coincided with the fleet number.

And really at this point Macross seems to be more the designation of the concept equivalent more to battleship or carrier.