Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[Seto Kaiba]

Well it is capable of generating a tactile fold fault shield. Whether that is connected to the Wind Song or not is not exactly clear. Either way, it is a remarkable defensive feature never before seen in a Macross production. Even the PD were incapable of such a defence.

... that's actually not new, we've seen that ability in play at least two or three times before.

As with so many other technologies the Protoculture developed, dimensional fault barriers were almost certainly something they came up with by imitating the natural abilities of the Vajra. The Vajra Queen demonstrated the ability to produce a dimensional fault barrier of some substantial size during the final battle of the war between the Vajra and the Macross Frontier emigrant fleet (in the Macross Frontier series). The Birdman, which is believed to have been based on Vajra Queen anatomy, almost certainly possessed that ability as well and used it to contain the detonation of the thermonuclear reaction shells used in Operation Iconoclasm. The fully-functional Evil-series bio-weapon that Havamal recovered on Uroboros also was able to produce a dimensional fault barrier and Colonel Todo used that ability in an effort to prevent the combined SMS Uroboros and SMS Frontier forces from intervening in the weapon's activation (though the YF-30 was able to get through it using its fold dimensional resonance system). The Protodeviln may have also been capable of producing this type of barrier, and that may also explain the barrier produced by the Queadluun-Alma's Astral System, which was said to be able to repel fire from a Macross cannon.

This is, at least, the first time we're seeing a starship capable of producing a dimensional fault barrier.

A very Macross solution.

Step 1: Try singing to it.

Step 2: Try singing harder.

Step 3: If it obviously doesn't intend to listen, punch it in the face with an aircraft carrier.

Step 3B: If getting close enough to punch it in the face with an aircraft carrier is proving difficult, shoot it with a Macross cannon first and charge through the hole you just made. *Then*, punch it in the face with an aircraft carrier. While singing.

And if what I suspect and hope about the Elysion is true, we might end up getting to see something get punched in the face with an aircraft carrier that turns out to hide a Macross cannon inside of it, which would combine the two attacks really nicely.

I'm still holding out hope that Aether or Hemera will perform the long-overdue Macross Rocket Punch.

[tout-puissant]

All things considered, I'm expecting Elysion to give a one-two punch if only because she has two limbs capable of doing it, and no cannon to nominally occupy the other limb. Only the Movie Edition SDF-1 was also capable of such an attack, but this time we'll see a case of "we're doing it because we CAN".

Also, I think we've just discovered the real reason the two Elysion carriers' outer decks fold down - all the better for punching. And I guess, when folded down in space, any fighters launching on the non-axial inner catapults (assuming that's what they do) would not launch directly into the opposite carrier.

Mark

[SebastianP]

Model kit promos and manuals and whatnot for the Bandai 1/72 VF-31J kit is out. Here's their PDF promo brochure:

http://bandai-hobby.net/site/character_macrossd/72_vf31j_spec01.pdf

Since the PDF has selectable text, it's machine translatable, so I plugged in some of it into Google Translate. To wit:

? VF-31J [sPEC]

Basic design: Surya Aerospace

Renovated: Chaos Valkyrie Works

Overall length: 19.31m overall width: 14.14m

Height: 3.85m (Battroid time: 15.33m ? not included laser machine gun)

Empty weight: 8,525kg (not including multi-purpose container equipment)

Airframe design maximum load: 29.5G

(At the time of ISC operation is protected from both high-G aircraft, crew and equipment)

Engine: Shinsei Industry / P & W / RR Co., Ltd.

FF-3001 / FC2 stage IIC heat nuclear turbine engine × 2

Space maximum thrust: 1,875KN + × 2

Fold Wave system during operation is up to about 15%

Over boost is possible.

High Mobility thrusters: P & W HMM-10A

Maximum speed: M5.5 + (advanced 10,000m / However heat limit)

Thrust Ribasa, three-dimensional deflection nozzle equipment

The big gun pod is labeled "Howard Co., Ltd. LU-18A beam gun pod", and the explanation given is that previous VFs had physical gun pods, but engine output is now great enough to support a beam gun pod and so the VF-31 is now officially equipped with one.

The knives are labeled "AK / VF-M11 Assault knife", with the explanation telling where it's stored (back edge of elbow shield), that it's made of super-alloy, and how the edge can be enhanced with the use of the pin-point barrier for extra force.

The "Elbow Shield" caption states that they're made from Energy Conversion Armor, and can be improved with the pin point barrier, then something about functioning as "Uchitsubasa" which I don't know what it means.

The "Arm rail gun (mini gun pod)" caption mentions how it's stored facing forwards in fighter mode and rotates around a fulcrum to face forward in Gerwalk or battroid, near as I can tell.

The model kit instructions have bigger captions for some of the items, but the scans are small so I can't see the characters well enough to transcribe them.

Edited June 23, 2016 by SebastianP

[Seto Kaiba]

Model kit promos and manuals and whatnot for the Bandai 1/72 VF-31J kit is out. Here's their PDF promo brochure:

http://bandai-hobby.net/site/character_macrossd/72_vf31j_spec01.pdf

Since the PDF has selectable text, it's machine translatable, so I plugged in some of it into Google Translate. To wit:

Thanks for that. This should be an interesting analysis indeed.

Basic Design: Sūrya Aerospace¹

Renovated: Chaos Valkyrie Works²

Overall Length: 19.31m - that would make this, IIRC, the second biggest variable fighter behind the Sv-51.

Overall Width: 14.14m - narrower than the VF-25 tho.

Overall Height: 3.85m - without landing gear, obviously. At 15.33m to the top of the head, the VF-31's also one of the tallest battroids.

Empty Mass: 8,525kg - 419kg heavier than the YF-30 Chronos prototype.

Airframe Design Load: 29.5g - This is probably actually the ISC output limit, since the VF-19 had a structural g-limit of over 35g and this is substantially tougher.

Engine: Shinsei/P&W/RR FF-3001/FC2 Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines - the same engine model used by the YF-30.

Maximum output (space): 1,875kN - ... but apparently significantly detuned. The YF-30's FF-3001/FC2 engines were rated at 2,110kN. This can apparently be boosted 15% when the fold wave system is operating. That's 2,156.5kN, slightly more than the YF-30's base output.

High Mobility Thrusters: P&W HMM-10A - a newer model than the YF-30's.

Maximum Speed: Mach 5.5+ (at 10km, limited by the fuselage's thermal limits). - This has been pretty consistent on all 5th-Gen Valkyries.

The "Elbow Shield" caption states that they're made from Energy Conversion Armor, and can be improved with the pin point barrier, then something about functioning as "Uchitsubasa" which I don't know what it means.

It's talking about how they also function as part of the wing surface in fighter mode.

The "Arm rail gun (mini gun pod)" caption mentions how it's stored facing forwards in fighter mode and rotates around a fulcrum to face forward in Gerwalk or battroid, near as I can tell.

The model kit instructions have bigger captions for some of the items, but the scans are small so I can't see the characters well enough to transcribe them.

Very interesting... this is the first time in a while we've had a Valkyrie with a railgun as its main offensive gun system. Usually railguns are an optional or supplementary weapon, like the VF-25's sniper rifle, YF-25 Paladin Prophecy's blaze lance, or Queadluun-Alma's rail rifle.

EDIT: Based on what's said in Great Mechanics G Spring 2016, it's likely that only the Delta Platoon's VF-31 Siegfried units have the fold wave system. The stock VF-31A Kairos doesn't seem to.

1. Sūrya is, or so Wikipedia assures me, the chief solar deity in Hinduism.

2. Obviously in this case, renovated for Hayate's use. I wonder if the other VF-31 Delta Platoon units are renovated models or if they're stock.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[SebastianP]

Thanks for that. This should be an interesting analysis indeed.

Basic Design: Sūrya Aerospace¹

Renovated: Chaos Valkyrie Works²

Overall Length: 19.31m - that would make this, IIRC, the second biggest variable fighter behind the Sv-51.

Overall Width: 14.14m - narrower than the VF-25 tho.

Overall Height: 3.85m - without landing gear, obviously. At 15.33m to the top of the head, the VF-31's also one of the tallest battroids.

Empty Mass: 8,525kg - 419kg heavier than the YF-30 Chronos prototype.

Airframe Design Load: 29.5g - This is probably actually the ISC output limit, since the VF-19 had a structural g-limit of over 35g and this is substantially tougher.

Engine: Shinsei/P&W/RR FF-3001/FC2 Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines - the same engine model used by the YF-30.

Maximum output (space): 1,875kN - ... but apparently significantly detuned. The YF-30's FF-3001/FC2 engines were rated at 2,110kN. This can apparently be boosted 15% when the fold wave system is operating. That's 2,156.5kN, slightly more than the YF-30's base output.

High Mobility Thrusters: P&W HMM-10A - a newer model than the YF-30's.

Maximum Speed: Mach 5.5+ (at 10km, limited by the fuselage's thermal limits). - This has been pretty consistent on all 5th-Gen Valkyries.

It's talking about how they also function as part of the wing surface in fighter mode.

Very interesting... this is the first time in a while we've had a Valkyrie with a railgun as its main offensive gun system. Usually railguns are an optional or supplementary weapon, like the VF-25's sniper rifle, YF-25 Paladin Prophecy's blaze lance, or Queadluun-Alma's rail rifle.

1. Sūrya is, or so Wikipedia assures me, the chief solar deity in Hinduism.

2. Obviously in this case, renovated for Hayate's use. I wonder if the other VF-31 Delta Platoon units are renovated models or if they're stock.

I'm thinking that the C/E/F/J/S models are *all* Chaos Valkyrie Works redesigns, based on the blurb at the top of the page about the VF-31 Siegfried. It mentions that the Siegfried was developed for Delta Squad from the VF-31A Kairos for supporting Walkure, and has several features to that end such as the forward swept wing for improved mobility, the "rare fold quartz" insert, the drone launchers, and specialized Multipurpose container units like the sound projection unit and an energy supply unit for the drones. Or at least that's what I can make out from the machine translation.

The blurb under "Battroid" of course mentions the history behind the mode (needing it to fight 10 meter tall giants), and how the battroid mode can be used to penetrate into enemy ships like infantry. Also, the capabilities for battroids have improved with time, to the point where they can now use fold boosters to jump right into the enemy command centers. (This will be a thing to see - battroids defolding in the enemy base. Forget cloaking devices like the Frontier special forces EX-gears had, we foldin' now!)

Another blurb says the forward swept wing was adopted in order to enhance the mobility at low speed in the atmosphere during Var suppression.

Yet another says the fold quarts (FQ) is equipped only on Delta squad machines, and is used to amplify the fold waves of Walkure's songs to make them reach further, which is probably why they fly air shows over the concerts. (though standing around on the ground would probably work as well, but it wouldn't be as fun to watch. )

Edit: The rest of the text blocks appear to mostly be either general historical information about other fighters or the setting; or "look how great this model is" bits.

Edited June 23, 2016 by SebastianP

[squaresphere]

Maximum speed: M5.5 + (advanced 10,000m / However heat limit)

This got me wondering. Isn't mach 5.5 way below what's needed for escape velocity?

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm thinking that the C/E/F/J/S models are *all* Chaos Valkyrie Works redesigns, based on the blurb at the top of the page about the VF-31 Siegfried. It mentions that the Siegfried was developed for Delta Squad from the VF-31A Kairos for supporting Walkure, and has several features to that end such as the forward swept wing for improved mobility, the "rare fold quartz" insert, the drone launchers, and specialized Multipurpose container units like the sound projection unit and an energy supply unit for the drones. Or at least that's what I can make out from the machine translation.

Good point. I probably should've realized that, but for some reason my brain keeps latching onto just that goofy EX-Gear helmet Hayate has because he won't wear the normal one.

As it says the fold quartz inserts are unique equipment for Delta Platoon, I'm still left with my most burning question half-answered... now that we know the specially-customized VF-31 Siegfried ver. has a fold wave system, I'm left wondering if the VF-31A/B Kairos also has the system. Probably not, but if it does then that would represent a HUGE leap forward in variable fighter capabilities in the 5th Generation.

I'm also somewhat surprised that the forearm shields are made out of normal energy conversion armor rather than the advanced energy conversion armor that was used for the anti-projectile shields on the other 5th Gen VFs and in the VF-25 Armored Pack. I wonder if that'll be finessed in later, more detailed publications or if it's going to be just double-thickness conventional energy conversion armor running at higher power the way the YF-29 did (presumably as a cost save).

The blurb under "Battroid" of course mentions the history behind the mode (needing it to fight 10 meter tall giants), and how the battroid mode can be used to penetrate into enemy ships like infantry. Also, the capabilities for battroids have improved with time, to the point where they can now use fold boosters to jump right into the enemy command centers. (This will be a thing to see - battroids defolding in the enemy base. Forget cloaking devices like the Frontier special forces EX-gears had, we foldin' now!)

Now THAT will be something to see... we've known that the 5th Generation VFs are capable of incredibly precise short-range fold jumps, because that was one of the two demonstrations that sold the New UN Forces on the YF-24 Evolution, but that's a level above anything the YF-24 Evolution ever did.

(I wonder if that's inspired by Macross 30 using fold boosters as a "get out of dungeon free" card?)

[SebastianP]

Good point. I probably should've realized that, but for some reason my brain keeps latching onto just that goofy EX-Gear helmet Hayate has because he won't wear the normal one.

As it says the fold quartz inserts are unique equipment for Delta Platoon, I'm still left with my most burning question half-answered... now that we know the specially-customized VF-31 Siegfried ver. has a fold wave system, I'm left wondering if the VF-31A/B Kairos also has the system. Probably not, but if it does then that would represent a HUGE leap forward in variable fighter capabilities in the 5th Generation.

Those dark hexagons to either side of the head are where the fold quartz inserts go on the Siegfried version, and as you can see they don't really look like crystal on this Kairos.

Here's Mirage's machine, you can see the difference in that area pretty clearly.

Edit: Huh, I never noticed you can actually read the Aether's name on the fin of the VF-31A. Not too surprising I suppose.

Edited June 23, 2016 by SebastianP

[Seto Kaiba]

This got me wondering. Isn't mach 5.5 way below what's needed for escape velocity?

Well, yes... but that Mach 5.5+ top (safe) speed is the aircraft's top speed at 10km (32,800ft), where the atmosphere is still relatively thick and thus aerodynamic heating of the airframe becomes a real concern. They can actually go much faster at that altitude, but without powering up the energy conversion armor and/or using the pin-point barriers they'd start overheating the fuselage and damaging the aircraft. The VF-27 could reach speeds in excess of Mach 9 by using the generator output of its four engines to run its energy conversion armor and barrier system at that altitude.

The higher the altitude, the less of a concern aerodynamic heating becomes and the faster they can go... and we know the VF-31 is as capable of launching into a satellite orbit on its own, so its top speed must be at or above 7.9km/s. I think they stopped listing the top speed at higher altitudes because, really, if you can achieve an unboosted ceiling of satellite orbit you're traveling at least Mach 23.

Those dark hexagons to either side of the head are where the fold quartz inserts go on the Siegfried version, and as you can see they don't really look like crystal on this Kairos.

Yes, but I don't think it's been established if those are necessary for a fold wave system. The YF-29 had something very similar, but the YF-30 didn't and it was equipped with an enhanced version of the fold wave system. Hence my wondering...

[azrael]

Now THAT will be something to see... we've known that the 5th Generation VFs are capable of incredibly precise short-range fold jumps, because that was one of the two demonstrations that sold the New UN Forces on the YF-24 Evolution, but that's a level above anything the YF-24 Evolution ever did.

(I wonder if that's inspired by Macross 30 using fold boosters as a "get out of dungeon free" card?)

Don't know how the Battroid-folding thing jump started this, but couldn't they use the super fold boosters, which were designed to punch through fold faults, to jump into Windermere?

[Solo Wing Pixy]

Model kit promos and manuals and whatnot for the Bandai 1/72 VF-31J kit is out. Here's their PDF promo brochure:

http://bandai-hobby.net/site/character_macrossd/72_vf31j_spec01.pdf

Since the PDF has selectable text, it's machine translatable, so I plugged in some of it into Google Translate. To wit:

? VF-31J [sPEC]

Basic design: Surya Aerospace

Renovated: Chaos Valkyrie Works

Overall length: 19.31m overall width: 14.14m

Height: 3.85m (Battroid time: 15.33m ? not included laser machine gun)

Empty weight: 8,525kg (not including multi-purpose container equipment)

Airframe design maximum load: 29.5G

(At the time of ISC operation is protected from both high-G aircraft, crew and equipment)

Engine: Shinsei Industry / P & W / RR Co., Ltd.

FF-3001 / FC2 stage IIC heat nuclear turbine engine × 2

Space maximum thrust: 1,875KN + × 2

Fold Wave system during operation is up to about 15%

Over boost is possible.

High Mobility thrusters: P & W HMM-10A

Maximum speed: M5.5 + (advanced 10,000m / However heat limit)

Thrust Ribasa, three-dimensional deflection nozzle equipment

The big gun pod is labeled "Howard Co., Ltd. LU-18A beam gun pod", and the explanation given is that previous VFs had physical gun pods, but engine output is now great enough to support a beam gun pod and so the VF-31 is now officially equipped with one.

The knives are labeled "AK / VF-M11 Assault knife", with the explanation telling where it's stored (back edge of elbow shield), that it's made of super-alloy, and how the edge can be enhanced with the use of the pin-point barrier for extra force.

The "Elbow Shield" caption states that they're made from Energy Conversion Armor, and can be improved with the pin point barrier, then something about functioning as "Uchitsubasa" which I don't know what it means.

The "Arm rail gun (mini gun pod)" caption mentions how it's stored facing forwards in fighter mode and rotates around a fulcrum to face forward in Gerwalk or battroid, near as I can tell.

The model kit instructions have bigger captions for some of the items, but the scans are small so I can't see the characters well enough to transcribe them.

Surya airspace? Are we seeing a new make or is it the same old shinsei industries?

[SebastianP]

Yes, but I don't think it's been established if those are necessary for a fold wave system. The YF-29 had something very similar, but the YF-30 didn't and it was equipped with an enhanced version of the fold wave system. Hence my wondering...

If you look at both the toy and the official 3D renders of the Chronos, you can see a crystal insert in the edge of the auxiliary intake on the "chest" section.

They're smaller and they're completely streamlined as opposed to free standing like on the Durandal, but they're there.

[SebastianP]

Surya airspace? Are we seeing a new make or is it the same old shinsei industries?

It's written スーリヤ・エアロスペース, Shinsei is written with the kanji for "Nova", at least according to Wikipedia. If you go to the Japanese Wikipedia and look up the VF-19 or VF-25, and let it auto-translate for you, it'll tell you both aircraft were built by "Nova Industries".

[Seto Kaiba]

Don't know how the Battroid-folding thing jump started this, but couldn't they use the super fold boosters, which were designed to punch through fold faults, to jump into Windermere?

Yeah... any ship or fighter outfitted with a zero-time fold system or any fighter with a fold dimensional resonance system should be able to penetrate the dimensional fault around Windermere.

I wonder if a fold wave system can do the same job, since it's a less refined version of the fold dimensional resonance system?

Surya airspace? Are we seeing a new make or is it the same old shinsei industries?

It's a new make, apparently.

If you look at both the toy and the official 3D renders of the Chronos, you can see a crystal insert in the edge of the auxiliary intake on the "chest" section.

They're smaller and they're completely streamlined as opposed to free standing like on the Durandal, but they're there.

The question there is "sensor window or something else". Fold quartz is pinkish, those are blue.

[Mr March]

Model kit promos and manuals and whatnot for the Bandai 1/72 VF-31J kit is out. Here's their PDF promo brochure:

http://bandai-hobby.net/site/character_macrossd/72_vf31j_spec01.pdf

Since the PDF has selectable text, it's machine translatable, so I plugged in some of it into Google Translate. To wit:

? VF-31J [sPEC]

Basic design: Surya Aerospace

Renovated: Chaos Valkyrie Works

Overall length: 19.31m overall width: 14.14m

Height: 3.85m (Battroid time: 15.33m ? not included laser machine gun)

Empty weight: 8,525kg (not including multi-purpose container equipment)

Airframe design maximum load: 29.5G

(At the time of ISC operation is protected from both high-G aircraft, crew and equipment)

Engine: Shinsei Industry / P & W / RR Co., Ltd.

FF-3001 / FC2 stage IIC heat nuclear turbine engine × 2

Space maximum thrust: 1,875KN + × 2

Fold Wave system during operation is up to about 15%

Over boost is possible.

High Mobility thrusters: P & W HMM-10A

Maximum speed: M5.5 + (advanced 10,000m / However heat limit)

Thrust Ribasa, three-dimensional deflection nozzle equipment

The big gun pod is labeled "Howard Co., Ltd. LU-18A beam gun pod", and the explanation given is that previous VFs had physical gun pods, but engine output is now great enough to support a beam gun pod and so the VF-31 is now officially equipped with one.

The knives are labeled "AK / VF-M11 Assault knife", with the explanation telling where it's stored (back edge of elbow shield), that it's made of super-alloy, and how the edge can be enhanced with the use of the pin-point barrier for extra force.

The "Elbow Shield" caption states that they're made from Energy Conversion Armor, and can be improved with the pin point barrier, then something about functioning as "Uchitsubasa" which I don't know what it means.

The "Arm rail gun (mini gun pod)" caption mentions how it's stored facing forwards in fighter mode and rotates around a fulcrum to face forward in Gerwalk or battroid, near as I can tell.

The model kit instructions have bigger captions for some of the items, but the scans are small so I can't see the characters well enough to transcribe them.

This is some good trivia. It's confirmed a few things we've suspected about the VF-31 Siegfried (beam gun pod, ICS, ), but there is a few surprises in there. Overall, the statistics aren't that high performing. The weight, thrusts and capabilities seem solidly in line with the YF-24/VF-25 Messiah era of variable fighters. The VF-31 is an advancement to be sure, but not significantly outside of this generation. Certainly nothing like the leap from SDF Macross to Macross Plus or the leap from Macross Plus to Frontier. That's not bad or good, just interesting.

I must say, it's really eye-opening to read mention of "Overboost" after all these years. I've personally long suspected that all Valkyries following the VF-1 Valkyrie could achieve the thrust-doubling effect of overboost, but there's been very little trivia that I've seen translated to support that. In fact, the only other overboost mention I ever found was in the cockpit control line art for the VF-17 Nightmare, which clearly shows overboost is still a feature after the VF-1 Valkyrie. This trivia for the VF-31 Siegfried would seem to once again confirm that overboost is still used in the variable fighters even in 2067. Hence, all the thrust-to-weight ratios we have for all the valkyries post-VF-1 Valkyrie really have been low-end estimates just like I suspected. Very interesting indeed.

[Solo Wing Pixy]

From what we've seen of the siegfried's mini gun pods(appears to be single barrel so far), I presume the rail guns function as an auto cannon rather than a gatling. Though their high rate of fire says otherwise.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Solo Wing Pixy

[SebastianP]

This is some good trivia. It's confirmed a few things we've suspected about the VF-31 Siegfried (beam gun pod, ICS, ), but there is a few surprises in there. Overall, the statistics aren't that high performing. The weight, thrusts and capabilities seem solidly in line with the YF-24/VF-25 Messiah era of variable fighters. The VF-31 is an advancement to be sure, but not significantly outside of this generation. Certainly nothing like the leap from SDF Macross to Macross Plus or the leap from Macross Plus to Frontier. That's not bad or good, just interesting.

I must say, it's really eye-opening to read mention of "Overboost" after all these years. I've personally long suspected that all Valkyries following the VF-1 Valkyrie could achieve the thrust-doubling effect of overboost, but there's been very little trivia that I've seen translated to support that. In fact, the only other overboost mention I ever found was in the cockpit control line art for the VF-17 Nightmare, which clearly shows overboost is still a feature after the VF-1 Valkyrie. This trivia for the VF-31 Siegfried would seem to once again confirm that overboost is still used in the variable fighters even in 2067. Hence, all the thrust-to-weight ratios we have for all the valkyries post-VF-1 Valkyrie really have been low-end estimates just like I suspected. Very interesting indeed.

Pretty sure that "overboost" has been factored in with previous VF specifications, given what Seto Kaiba wrote above about the listed thrust plus 15% being in line with the listed thrust of the YF-30, which uses the same engines. It just wasn't written out like this before.

The advancement of the VF-31 is probably focused in areas other than raw thrust-to-weight or G loading, like the Modular Container subsystem, sensor tech, and finally getting landing gear that aren't more than half way between the center of gravity and the tail end of the plane (something that's pretty much always bugged me about the VFs.)

And at a guess, the reason a lot of things aren't mentioned as being "advanced" versions when their predecessors were, is that by now the old versions - 8+ years old at this point - are no longer "advanced", they're standard. What used to be "advanced energy conversion armor" eight years ago is now just "regular energy conversion armor", with "advanced" being reserved for something that's really on the bleeding edge right now.

Oh, by the way I'm looking at the model kit instructions, and it looks like the Siegfried has two hardpoints under each wing - on is on the arm shield units, and the other is on the outer wing section. They're pretty clearly visible in the paint guide for the plane, and have their own warning stencils. They're not functional on the model, then again we've never seen the actual plane carry anything under its wings so far in the anime, so it's not like they need to be functional for anime accuracy or anything.

[Solo Wing Pixy]

Pretty sure that "overboost" has been factored in with previous VF specifications, given what Seto Kaiba wrote above about the listed thrust plus 15% being in line with the listed thrust of the YF-30, which uses the same engines. It just wasn't written out like this before.

The advancement of the VF-31 is probably focused in areas other than raw thrust-to-weight or G loading, like the Modular Container subsystem, sensor tech, and finally getting landing gear that aren't more than half way between the center of gravity and the tail end of the plane (something that's pretty much always bugged me about the VFs.)

And at a guess, the reason a lot of things aren't mentioned as being "advanced" versions when their predecessors were, is that by now the old versions - 8+ years old at this point - are no longer "advanced", they're standard. What used to be "advanced energy conversion armor" eight years ago is now just "regular energy conversion armor", with "advanced" being reserved for something that's really on the bleeding edge right now.

Oh, by the way I'm looking at the model kit instructions, and it looks like the Siegfried has two hardpoints under each wing - on is on the arm shield units, and the other is on the outer wing section. They're pretty clearly visible in the paint guide for the plane, and have their own warning stencils. They're not functional on the model, then again we've never seen the actual plane carry anything under its wings so far in the anime, so it's not like they need to be functional for anime accuracy or anything.

That makes me wonder if the VF 25 has been adopted by the NUNS yet(VF 25 with NUNS markings?), or if its related technology has been mass produced.

[Seto Kaiba]

This is some good trivia. It's confirmed a few things we've suspected about the VF-31 Siegfried (beam gun pod, ICS, ), but there is a few surprises in there. Overall, the statistics aren't that high performing. The weight, thrusts and capabilities seem solidly in line with the YF-24/VF-25 Messiah era of variable fighters. The VF-31 is an advancement to be sure, but not significantly outside of this generation. Certainly nothing like the leap from SDF Macross to Macross Plus or the leap from Macross Plus to Frontier. That's not bad or good, just interesting.

's unusual, but not surprising, that the VF-31 isn't a huge leap forward vs. the fighters we've seen in previous shows. Macross Delta is the first time we've had a new Macross series without also technologically jumping forward at least one VF generation. The VF-31A/B Kairos and VF-31C/E/F/J/S Siegfried are further developments of the YF-30 Chronos, and the YF-30 was developed from the YF-24 spec. same as the YF-25 Prophecy, YF-27 Shahar, or YF-29 Durandal were. Its performance, with a thrust-to-weight ratio of 44.85, sits comfortably between that of the VF-25 and VF-27 without the assistance of its fold wave system.

I must say, it's really eye-opening to read mention of "Overboost" after all these years. I've personally long suspected that all Valkyries following the VF-1 Valkyrie could achieve the thrust-doubling effect of overboost, but there's been very little trivia that I've seen translated to support that. In fact, the only other overboost mention I ever found was in the cockpit control line art for the VF-17 Nightmare, which clearly shows overboost is still a feature after the VF-1 Valkyrie. This trivia for the VF-31 Siegfried would seem to once again confirm that overboost is still used in the variable fighters even in 2067. Hence, all the thrust-to-weight ratios we have for all the valkyries post-VF-1 Valkyrie really have been low-end estimates just like I suspected. Very interesting indeed.

Well, not quite. This is somewhat different from the Overboost mode on older models of variable fighter with thermonuclear reaction turbine engines, which were just the (unsustainable?) "true maximum" output power of the engines.

It seems like the feature may have gone away on the thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines, since at that point we started getting thrust in terms of just the maximum possible output.

On the VF-31, the 1,875kN thrust figure is the maximum output the engines are capable of without the intervention of the fold wave system, which alters something about the thermonuclear reaction going on inside the engines (perhaps it's replacing the heavy quantum in the reactor with super heavy quantum?) which allows the engines to run at above their normal maximum performance. It also supplies the airframe with power via fold dimensional energy conversion, so the system may be allowing ALL of the energy from the reaction to go into thrust generation or something of that nature. It only yields a 15% improvement in output on the VF-31, but that's still 281.25kN per engine, which is nothing to sneeze at.

That makes me wonder if the VF 25 has been adopted by the NUNS yet(VF 25 with NUNS markings?), or if its related technology has been mass produced.

Variable Fighter Master File and Variable Fighter Episode Archive both suggested that it would/should be by now... though their "not official setting" status means that has to be taken with a grain of salt until confirmed elsewhere, though it is practically a given (IMO) that the Macross Frontier NUNS forces have started to adopt the VF-25 by now.

[azrael]

IIRC, Kawamori's comments regarding the VF-31 are meant to indicate that the VF-31 is "evolutionary", not revolutionary. So the VF-31's specs aren't meant to "wow" us, but should reflect updates in the YF-24-family.

[Seto Kaiba]

And at a guess, the reason a lot of things aren't mentioned as being "advanced" versions when their predecessors were, is that by now the old versions - 8+ years old at this point - are no longer "advanced", they're standard. What used to be "advanced energy conversion armor" eight years ago is now just "regular energy conversion armor", with "advanced" being reserved for something that's really on the bleeding edge right now.

Possible, though since both "Advanced Energy Conversion Armor" and "Energy Conversion Armor II" are supposed to be different materials from the normal stuff, I'm inclined to suspect that the VF-31 is simply layering on the cheaper regular stuff like the YF-29 did because the advanced material was so bank-breakingly expensive that the VF-25 and VF-27 could only economically use it on their anti-projectile shields.

Oh, by the way I'm looking at the model kit instructions, and it looks like the Siegfried has two hardpoints under each wing - on is on the arm shield units, and the other is on the outer wing section. They're pretty clearly visible in the paint guide for the plane, and have their own warning stencils. They're not functional on the model, then again we've never seen the actual plane carry anything under its wings so far in the anime, so it's not like they need to be functional for anime accuracy or anything.

It probably gave up a pair (or more) of hardpoints for that smaller forward-swept wing, kind of like the VF-19F/S did.

[Mommar]

Those dark hexagons to either side of the head are where the fold quartz inserts go on the Siegfried version, and as you can see they don't really look like crystal on this Kairos.

Here's Mirage's machine, you can see the difference in that area pretty clearly.

Edit: Huh, I never noticed you can actually read the Aether's name on the fin of the VF-31A. Not too surprising I suppose.

The shape of the "hexagon" on the Cairos is not the same as on the same as the Fold Quartz inserts (err, maybe that's just the angle...) I wonder if on the standard 31 those are actually missile ports, as is standard for hexagon shaped ports on Valks.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Mommar

[SebastianP]

It probably gave up a pair (or more) of hardpoints for that smaller forward-swept wing, kind of like the VF-19F/S did.

Curiously, my research into the matter suggests the opposite.

The hardpoints have been marked out in basically every source as three small rectangular recesses in a line with a panel line around them, looking kind of like the slots where the hardpoints on the DX toys connect. On the Siegfried, these are visible in the actual show, on the 1/72 Bandai kit, on the 1/144 Tomytec kit, and the non-scale MechaColle kit. All of them show one hardpoint on the arm shield, and one on the outer wing... on the Siegfried. (Curiously, the DX Chogokin toy prototypes does not even have panel lines in those locations...)

For the Kairos, we have line art of the underside, which shows a smooth outer wing. And the Tomytec kit, which shows another smooth outer wing. I haven't started going through the footage of the VF-31 from the show, but I don't think I'll find any evidence for any outer wing hardpoints there either...

Edit: Here's one from the actual show too, the only time I think we actually see the underside of the outer wing of the plane in the whole show to date:

Edited June 23, 2016 by SebastianP

[Seto Kaiba]

The hardpoints have been marked out in basically every source as three small rectangular recesses in a line with a panel line around them, looking kind of like the slots where the hardpoints on the DX toys connect. On the Siegfried, these are visible in the actual show, on the 1/72 Bandai kit, on the 1/144 Tomytec kit, and the non-scale MechaColle kit. All of them show one hardpoint on the arm shield, and one on the outer wing... on the Siegfried. (Curiously, the DX Chogokin toy prototypes does not even have panel lines in those locations...)

For the Kairos, we have line art of the underside, which shows a smooth outer wing. And the Tomytec kit, which shows another smooth outer wing. I haven't started going through the footage of the VF-31 from the show, but I don't think I'll find any evidence for any outer wing hardpoints there either...

Hm... not being much of a toy/kit collector, I hadn't noticed the TomyTech kits show a second hardpoint on the forward-swept wing segment.

Well, this is definitely a bit bizarre. I mean, I know that Macross Delta's VFs haven't really used anything pylon-mounted thus far, but ordinarily you'd expect the standard front-line combat version to be armed at least as well as the specialist model intended for sound warfare (and usually better). This appears to be an odd case of the reverse being true, since the Kairos uses the same ordinance container system as the Siegfried, despite apparently not needing/carrying multidrones, has two hardpoints instead of four, and is otherwise armed identically.

I wonder why they lost the second pair of hardpoints that the YF-30 Chronos had on the outer wing... and why they're bothering with the energy projector when they would stand to benefit far more from something like the YF-30's missile container.

(Answered my own question on the fold wave system via Chronicle... the bits on the outside of the aircraft are only peripherally associated with the fold wave system, so not having the glowy fold quartz bits on the outside near the monitor turret apparently doesn't rule out the possibility of the VF-31A/B Kairos having a fold wave system.)

[Zinjo]

From what we've seen of the siegfried's mini gun pods(appears to be single barrel so far), i'm presume the rail guns function as an auto cannon rather than a gatling. Though their high rate of fire says otherwise.

With rail guns utilizing the high power output of the engines to generate the magnetic propellant, it answers a few questions. Your projectiles no longer require propellant and thus can be the same size shell without the added dimension of a casing, equalling more storable rounds. The need for them to be incorporated into the airframe of the Valk also becomes necessary. However where the power is transferred to the DEW Gunpod is a new question? Through a hand port?

(Answered my own question on the fold wave system via Chronicle... the bits on the outside of the aircraft are only peripherally associated with the fold wave system, so not having the glowy fold quartz bits on the outside near the monitor turret apparently doesn't rule out the possibility of the VF-31A/B Kairos having a fold wave system.)

The air frame is the same, the only principal visible difference seems to be the wings and the sensor package in front of the cockpits.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Zinjo

[SebastianP]

The air frame is the same, the only principal visible difference seems to be the wings and the sensor package in front of the cockpits.

The visible crystal bits from the top are also missing, they're shaded so they almost look like missile ports on the VF-31A. They're certainly not sparkly crystals at any rate.

As for the missing hardpoints, I'm thinking that someone forgot to draw them in the line art, then the 3D model was made without them, then the model kits were made using the 3D model as a reference, and so none of them have any extra hardpoints. Stupid, but that sort of thing happens.

[anime52k8]

However where the power is transferred to the DEW Gunpod is a new question? Through a hand port?

Maybe it runs on a battery/capacitor while hand held and charges while stowed.

[azrael]

Those arm guns being rail guns explains sone things, but, going back to Graham's question, where is the ammo stored?

[Solo Wing Pixy]

Presumably on the forearm or behind the actual barrel. We don't know what kind of feed system this gun is using(i.e. belt, cartridge, etc.).

[Seto Kaiba]

With rail guns utilizing the high power output of the engines to generate the magnetic propellant, it answers a few questions. Your projectiles no longer require propellant and thus can be the same size shell without the added dimension of a casing, equalling more storable rounds. The need for them to be incorporated into the airframe of the Valk also becomes necessary. However where the power is transferred to the DEW Gunpod is a new question? Through a hand port?

Almost certainly a conductive power transfer through the hand... Macross the Ride confirmed that beam gun pods are powered externally by tapping into the fighter's reactor.

(Based on Macross the Ride's presentation of the YF-27-5, this is almost certainly a big part of why the VF-27 has four engines... the prototype needed an extra reactor mounted out on one wing to power the gun pod.)

[SebastianP]

Almost certainly a conductive power transfer through the hand... Macross the Ride confirmed that beam gun pods are powered externally by tapping into the fighter's reactor.

(Based on Macross the Ride's presentation of the YF-27-5, this is almost certainly a big part of why the VF-27 has four engines... the prototype needed an extra reactor mounted out on one wing to power the gun pod.)

I thought that was explicitly stated somewhere? At least I've been assuming as much for a couple of years at this point, as it was mentioned in the very first description I ever read of the YF-27-5. Though it's been so long I don't even remember where I saw the description...

Anyway, given that both the YF-29 and VF-25 Tornado pack also have large-scale beam guns and extra engines, I've been assuming it was pretty much the same deal there, it's just that the power generation of the YF-29 was more efficient so they could make do with two extra engines rather than the four of the Tornado pack. It wasn't until the FF-3001's on the YF-30 (and now the VF-31) that the main engines had enough power generation to feed a beam gun pod on their own.

[Seto Kaiba]

I thought that was explicitly stated somewhere? At least I've been assuming as much for a couple of years at this point, as it was mentioned in the very first description I ever read of the YF-27-5. Though it's been so long I don't even remember where I saw the description...

That the YF-27-5's beam gun pod is externally powered is explicitly stated in Macross the Ride... that the energy requirements of the gunpod are the reason for the four engines on the production model is not. (That, from Ride and the movies, was hinted at being the result of the VF-27 being based on illicitly obtained YF-29 developmental specs.)

Anyway, given that both the YF-29 and VF-25 Tornado pack also have large-scale beam guns and extra engines, I've been assuming it was pretty much the same deal there, it's just that the power generation of the YF-29 was more efficient so they could make do with two extra engines rather than the four of the Tornado pack. It wasn't until the FF-3001's on the YF-30 (and now the VF-31) that the main engines had enough power generation to feed a beam gun pod on their own.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It really depends on the fighter.

For instance, the VF-25's Tornado Pack and Armored Pack both have dedicated power systems built into them rather than tapping the fighter's own generators. The Armored Pack had capacitors, and the Tornado Pack actually had a small reaction power system. None of the packs added additional reaction engines with their own generators, they mostly used chemical rockets. Master File has waffled back and forth about whether things like Strike Packs have the ability to top off the beam gun capacitors from the fighter's reactors.

With the FC2 versions of the FF-3001 Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines, we finally appear to have enough surplus generator output to power a beam gun pod with just two engines instead of four.

[Graham]

From what we've seen of the siegfried's mini gun pods(appears to be single barrel so far), I presume the rail guns function as an auto cannon rather than a gatling. Though their high rate of fire says otherwise.

I'm pretty sure the arm guns they are single barrel.

Their rate of fire doesn't seem super high to me based on the animation, around. Single barrel modern day aircraft cannon are capable of quite high rates of fire. For example the Eurofighter Typhoon's 27mm Mauser cannon has a rate of fire of 1,700 rounds per second. The Siegfreid's rate of fire looks about similar to me.

And who knows, being rail guns and presumably powered by the VF-31's reactor output, maybe they can have a higher rate of fire.

[Graham]

Those arm guns being rail guns explains sone things, but, going back to Graham's question, where is the ammo stored?

I'd say it has to be in the forearm as the hands do not retract into the forearm, so there should be room for a fairly decent ammo capacity in there, even including any other mechanical gubins inside. I'm estimating around 200 to 300rds per gun.

And bear in mind as the arm guns are rail guns, the ammo will take up less space as you only need to store the projectiles, there is no need for a cartridge case for propellant

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm pretty sure the arm guns they are single barrel.

Their rate of fire doesn't seem super high to me based on the animation, around. Single barrel modern day aircraft cannon are capable of quite high rates of fire. For example the Eurofighter Typhoon's 27mm Mauser cannon has a rate of fire of 1,700 rounds per second. The Siegfreid's rate of fire looks about similar to me.

And who knows, being rail guns and presumably powered by the VF-31's reactor output, maybe they can have a higher rate of fire.

Pretty sure you're right. We get a look almost right down the barrel of one in Ep8 right before Freyja manages to free Captain Larazzabal from Var syndrome, and it appears to be a single barrel.