Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[JB0]

Whether the canopy enjoys the same protection as the rest of the aircraft via energy conversion armor is unclear, but my guess would be "no" since they generally slap an armored cover over it instead in battroid mode. It's made of some seriously tough stuff that's similarly durable to the hypercarbon the rest of the airframe is made of, but that'd leave it somewhat weaker than the rest of the armor in battroid mode.

If the canopy is similarly durable to the rest of the airframe... how come when Hikaru and Misa are escaping the grand cannon's destruction an explosion shattered the canopy "glass" but left the rest of the GERWALK more or less unscathed?

My impression has been that the canopy, although insanely durable by any modern standard, is still weaker than the surrounding armor.

Of course, if THAT is the case, one can ask why the YF-19 doesn't utilize a fully holographic cockpit instead of just a holographic floor. A "metal" bubble would appear to be far safer than a "glass" bubble, and damage visibility isn't a concern if the battroid design is any indication.

[anime52k8]

because not having a glass canopy is sinister and dishonorable, hence why only the bad guys ever seem to do it.

[d3v]

I'm guessing canopies are still used for the same reason we still use them today, even when theoretically, the tech exists to not require them. At the end of the day, nothing beats a pair of Mk. 1 Eyeballs.

Additionally that shot that Keith pulled off is an almost one in a million shot. For the most part, in air combat, planes tend to get shot from behind as getting on someone's six is still the best way to lineup a shot in WVR combat (and how we get stories of real life aces, such as the IAF's Giora Epstein surviving a 11 on 1 fight - because no matter how many enemies you have, only one can be on your six at any time).

Edited June 9, 2016 by d3v

[JB0]

I'm guessing canopies are still used for the same reason we still use them today, even when theoretically, the tech exists to not require them. At the end of the day, nothing beats a pair of Mk. 1 Eyeballs.

Unless you're in battroid mode, and then cameras have always beat the eyeball.

[grigolosi]

Seto if I remember correctly the rounds from D.D. came came from above the VF-0. They stitched along the nose and struck mid canopy. Roy had to look up and to his left to spot Ivanov inbound.

[d3v]

Unless you're in battroid mode, and then cameras have always beat the eyeball.

But battroid isn't exactly used for aerial combat.

Additionally, knocking out the sensors can cripple the plane if even fighter mode uses sensors. We saw how Hayate couldn't aim when his head was damaged in episode 8, yet once he transitioned back to gerwalk and fighter modes, he had no issues at all. Can't say the same for something that requires monitors and cameras full time.

Edited June 9, 2016 by d3v

[JB0]

But battroid isn't exactly used for aerial combat.

Nope, it's for aerial DANCING!

More seriously, heavy damage can leave a vehicle incapable of transformation. So each mode should have the same priority placed on survivability, because the pilot might not be able to get back to F mode when the poo hits the fan.

Additionally, knocking out the sensors can cripple the plane if even fighter mode uses sensors. We saw how Hayate couldn't aim when his head was damaged in episode 8, yet once he transitioned back to gerwalk and fighter modes, he had no issues at all. Can't say the same for something that requires monitors and cameras full time.

I assume fighter/GERWALK primary sensors are in the nosecone, since the head turret has a very poor view outside of battroid mode and the nose has a very poor view while IN battroid mode. Hooray for redundancy!

But... you get redundancy in the fully camera-ized situation, too. The head turret alone is not enough for a full YF-19-style display.

The holosseum cockpit requires an array of cameras with overlap in their field of view, so losing any one camera isn't going to devastate your basic visibility in any mode(but there's far less coverage on more specialized sensors, obviously).

But the glass cockpit (wait, that means something else) seems less present in Delta. That may be one of those things that the UN doesn't export, and thus a moot point outside of Plus. Oh well.

[This Confuses Gamlin]

Additionally that shot that Keith pulled off is an almost one in a million shot.

It was a head-on zero-deflection shot, which is geometrically the next-easiest thing to being directly aft. The only lucky/skilled part was the single shot to the canopy.

[Nazareno2012]

But the glass cockpit (wait, that means something else) seems less present in Delta. That may be one of those things that the UN doesn't export, and thus a moot point outside of Plus. Oh well.

The VF-171 has such a cockpit to an extent, and I don't think it would be a restricted technology in the first place.

[JB0]

Oh well, I rescind the oh well.

[Seto Kaiba]

I wasn't disputing that (I've technically studied rocket science as part of my degree, heh). Actually though, and Seto will surely come by to confirm this with more technical language than I care to use now, in space VF engines propel via expelling the reaction products from the fusion process. This happens in air too but it is combined with inlet air to increase thrust and efficiently. According to Seto, who says this comes from Master File (so not 100% canon but still, more detailed than anything else) they just ramp up the fusion process in space to the point where the fusion reaction products are enough to achieve similar thrust. It's crazy inefficient but overtech apparently enables them to do it. It also means they only need to carry fuel for the reaction and not a ton of propellant. This makes sense cause to do the stuff they do in the show they'd need massive propellant tanks to hold it all. Yes we can call it anime magic... but if we have one good explanation... I just assume go with that.

In a word... "Yep".

The more detailed technical publications like Master File do indicate that the thermonuclear reaction engines provide their own space-use propellant in the form of plasma bled off the reactor... which is why their space endurance is so much lower than their atmospheric endurance. They're consuming their internally-carried fuel at an astronomically (lol) greater rate to provide enough plasma to produce the thrust they're being asked to produce. It's not a pure fusion rocket (there's an ion engine in there too) but it's monstrously inefficient compared to the way they operate when in atmosphere.

I'd assume the FAST packs continue to use chemical rockets for simplicity's sake... meaning that, by using OTMat rocket fuels in conventional rocket designs, they can keep the system mechanically simpler and thus reduce the cost necessary to operate and maintain the packs, as well as minimizing the loss incurred when a pilot has to ditch his packs due to damage or a sudden change of operating regime. A reaction engine is not a cheap thing by any means.

If the canopy is similarly durable to the rest of the airframe... how come when Hikaru and Misa are escaping the grand cannon's destruction an explosion shattered the canopy "glass" but left the rest of the GERWALK more or less unscathed?

My impression has been that the canopy, although insanely durable by any modern standard, is still weaker than the surrounding armor.

Of course, if THAT is the case, one can ask why the YF-19 doesn't utilize a fully holographic cockpit instead of just a holographic floor. A "metal" bubble would appear to be far safer than a "glass" bubble, and damage visibility isn't a concern if the battroid design is any indication.

Remember, Hikaru's VF-1S was in GERWALK mode at the time... its energy conversion armor would've been operating (albeit not at full power), meaning the armor would've been tougher than the canopy was at that point. Earlier on in the series we're shown exactly how tough the canopy is, when Hikaru powers an unpowered VF-1D through a row of concrete buildings before the armored cover could slide into place.

With respect to the YF-19 and many other later designs still having traditional canopy designs instead of a fully holographic cockpit, it's the failsafe approach. The YF-19 was the more traditional of the two Super Nova designs, so I'm sure "it's traditional" plays a slight role in it, but with the clear canopy you can still see where you're going even if you lose the cockpit display electronics or the sensors feeding them. Guld's YF-21 retained a (reduced visibility) clear canopy even though it had the BDI system for similar reasons. The next generation after that sort of found a happy medium, with the clear canopy supplemented with a more advanced wraparound holographic HUD that could project displays for things like zooming in on or outlining hazards for better visibility, displaying alerts, etc. Even the VF-27 retained a clear canopy under that armored cover in the event that the BCS cockpit system failed, and it'd be an awfully stupid design flaw if the Sv-262 didn't. The material the canopy was made from probably improved along with the armor materials used elsewhere in the airframe too, so that the cockpit would be better protected even without going to a hard-armor cover.

Seto if I remember correctly the rounds from D.D. came came from above the VF-0. They stitched along the nose and struck mid canopy. Roy had to look up and to his left to spot Ivanov inbound.

Ah, so the path of least resistance... since those rounds cut through the fully-energized energy conversion armor of a VF-0 in battroid mode, it's a safe bet they'd go right through the canopy.

But the glass cockpit (wait, that means something else) seems less present in Delta. That may be one of those things that the UN doesn't export, and thus a moot point outside of Plus. Oh well.

The full wrap-around monitors are almost omnipresent at least in battroid mode... it doesn't appear that it was enough of an asset on the YF/VF-19's fighter mode to merit inclusion in future models though.

[d3v]

It was a head-on zero-deflection shot, which is geometrically the next-easiest thing to being directly aft. The only lucky/skilled part was the single shot to the canopy.

You forget the fact that anyone going for this is basically playing chicken with their target and, at the speeds they're going, risks getting a head on collision.

Nope, it's for aerial DANCING!

More seriously, heavy damage can leave a vehicle incapable of transformation. So each mode should have the same priority placed on survivability, because the pilot might not be able to get back to F mode when the poo hits the fan.

I assume fighter/GERWALK primary sensors are in the nosecone, since the head turret has a very poor view outside of battroid mode and the nose has a very poor view while IN battroid mode. Hooray for redundancy!

But... you get redundancy in the fully camera-ized situation, too. The head turret alone is not enough for a full YF-19-style display.

The holosseum cockpit requires an array of cameras with overlap in their field of view, so losing any one camera isn't going to devastate your basic visibility in any mode(but there's far less coverage on more specialized sensors, obviously).

With a canopy, you get total redundancy in case everything sensor/camera goes out. Take note that in fighter mode, there's a higher chance that this'll happen in flight and the pilot will still need visibility. In battroid mode, there's a higher chance that they're on the ground and the pilot wont need to visibility to stop the plane from crashing.

Of course, there are workaround, such as the ejectable armor plate on the VF-27. At the same time however, the fact that the planes already have pin-point barriers, plus the higher chance of them getting hit somewhere else (engined due to head, main fuselage since it's the center of mass, etc.) means that the NUNS doctrine probably thinks that it's extraneous.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it. Most things that would hit a cockpit would probably tear through the armor anyway. Especially when rounds that can make whatever they hit just go the hell away into fold space exist.

Edited June 9, 2016 by d3v

[azrael]

and it'd be an awfully stupid design flaw if the Sv-262 didn't.

I have an annoying suspicion that the '262s have no clear canopy. The Varuata fighters also used that, but they also acted as a full escape pod instead of the '262s standard ejection seat.

The full wrap-around monitors are almost omnipresent at least in battroid mode... it doesn't appear that it was enough of an asset on the YF/VF-19's fighter mode to merit inclusion in future models though.

In a dogfight when you could be engaging each other at close to Mach-speeds, the use of a wrap-around screen probably added little benefit to fighter mode. Missile could be dodged or decoyed so it wouldn't matter if you obtained missile lock from above them. Bombing runs could still use the MFD that's already there. And guns still fire in only one direction at any given instance.

[grigolosi]

Even in a dogfight at the speeds they are moving vision is life. The more visual acuity you have the more likely you can counter what your opponent is doing. The wrap around would allow the pilot in the VF to more readily predict what his/her opponent is going to do. A great part of VR engagement is seeing where your opponent is and the next part is intuitively predicting and counter maneuvering them. Even with an outstanding field of vision from a normal canopy I bet most pilots would love to have a wrap around system that allows them a complete 360 view in both the horizontal and vertical plane area.

As for the material the canopies are made of I would have to say Seto is probably correct in it being some form of hypercarbon. The canopies on modern fighters are soft, so soft that you can scratch them with a strong fingernail. Considering the wear and tear plus harsh environment a VF operates in a modern canopy wouldn't last. The amount of friction a normal canopy is exposed too is insane. Some aircraft have grounding plates built into the cockpit/canopy area for the ground crews to ground them because of static build up across the plastic. I have talked to F-16 pilots who have had electrical arcs between the frame sides of the canopy because of static build up. Also canopies are designed to take frontal impacts. They essentially transmit the impact energy aft when something like a bird strikes it (on the F-16 it transmits aft and the aft transperancy is supposed to shatter...in theory). This would explain why Hikaru's canopy shattered since the concussion from the explosion was directed form the side instead of the front. The canopy material wasn't designed to absorb the shock from that direction. But either way I doubt the material is designed to absorb the impact from a focused energy beam like Keith used. I would have to agree that the shot was a golden BB.

[Seto Kaiba]

As for the material the canopies are made of I would have to say Seto is probably correct in it being some form of hypercarbon. The canopies on modern fighters are soft, so soft that you can scratch them with a strong fingernail. Considering the wear and tear plus harsh environment a VF operates in a modern canopy wouldn't last. The amount of friction a normal canopy is exposed too is insane. Some aircraft have grounding plates built into the cockpit/canopy area for the ground crews to ground them because of static build up across the plastic. I have talked to F-16 pilots who have had electrical arcs between the frame sides of the canopy because of static build up. Also canopies are designed to take frontal impacts. They essentially transmit the impact energy aft when something like a bird strikes it (on the F-16 it transmits aft and the aft transperancy is supposed to shatter...in theory). This would explain why Hikaru's canopy shattered since the concussion from the explosion was directed form the side instead of the front. The canopy material wasn't designed to absorb the shock from that direction. But either way I doubt the material is designed to absorb the impact from a focused energy beam like Keith used. I would have to agree that the shot was a golden BB.

There's mention in Macross Chronicle of a transparent, glasslike supermaterial called Herculite, which is used to construct exterior-facing windows and such in starships... dollars to donuts VF canopies are made of the same or similar stuff.

[This Confuses Gamlin]

You forget the fact that anyone going for this is basically playing chicken with their target and, at the speeds they're going, risks getting a head on collision.

That's exactly what they ended up doing, except that Messer was hit first and slipped out of the way.

And I'm just referring to the complexity of the angles involved. They were head-on and in the same plane of travel, so there was no lead to calcuate. It wasn't like Keith landed a deflection shot on Messer while the latter was flying 90 degrees across his nose.

On the general topic of cockpit vision, I once thought that the pilots were actually getting the "clear cockpit" view through their helmet systems (like this) and what we saw as no cockpit was actually a representation of what they saw through the display, not that projectors in the cockpit hid the bulkheads. But it's supposed to be the latter (especially in Hayate's case), which presents some considerations for how the view is compressed for areas where the pilot can't easily turn their head, such as something coming up from six o'clock low, which would seem to involve trying to look through their own stomach.

[Seto Kaiba]

On the general topic of cockpit vision, I once thought that the pilots were actually getting the "clear cockpit" view through their helmet systems (like this) and what we saw as no cockpit was actually a representation of what they saw through the display, not that projectors in the cockpit hid the bulkheads. But it's supposed to be the latter (especially in Hayate's case), which presents some considerations for how the view is compressed for areas where the pilot can't easily turn their head, such as something coming up from six o'clock low, which would seem to involve trying to look through their own stomach.

Sort of...

To the best of my knowledge, there's never been anything like a direct-to-visor "clear cockpit" system on a Variable Fighter in Macross. Most VFs have just had a thoroughly traditional "glass" canopy with either a traditional HUD or holographic HUD projected directly onto said canopy, supplemented with rearview mirrors (or monitors doing the same job) just like on a real-world fighter. The few VFs to get wraparound monitors in fighter mode had honest-to-goodness displays built into the sides of the cockpit. The closest you get to a true "clear cockpit" are the fighters with brainwave control systems, where imaging can be projected directly into the pilot's brain like the YF-21, VF-22HG, or VF-27... though it's worth noting the YF-21 appeared to favor a computer-generated third person view of the fighter rather than the ability to see through the body of the aircraft. The Sv-262 seems to be unique in that it doesn't appear to require cybernetic implants, but uses a full wraparound monitor AND in-cockpit holographics... apparently for purely aesthetic reasons.

There is no wraparound imaging monitor in the VF-31's fighter mode, though... so there's no compression involved in the pilot's field of view. What they have is the same arrangement found on the VF-25, YF-29, and YF-30, with a traditional canopy supplemented with on-canopy holographic HUD and the ability to display alternate views like zooms or rear angles either on the main display or in holographic windows that pop up on the HUD.

[JB0]

Remember, Hikaru's VF-1S was in GERWALK mode at the time... its energy conversion armor would've been operating (albeit not at full power), meaning the armor would've been tougher than the canopy was at that point. Earlier on in the series we're shown exactly how tough the canopy is, when Hikaru powers an unpowered VF-1D through a row of concrete buildings before the armored cover could slide into place.

Ah, fudge. I was thinking the energy armor was only active in battroid mode. Welp, that completely derails that train of thought.

... though it's worth noting the YF-21 appeared to favor a computer-generated third person view of the fighter rather than the ability to see through the body of the aircraft....

I have always taken the Plus "Guld's eye view" scenes as more artistic interpretations than literal representations. Like the hanger scene, I don't think Guld was ACTUALLY flexing his hands to control the wings, it was just representational of how "natural" the controls were.

My impression was that, through the BDI, Guld's view WAS the aircraft's view. Which is a remarkably unclear way to say it, but...

The CG fighter scenes I took as a sort of tactical display, distinct from the "normal" in-flight view.

Or, again, artistic interpretation. Removing information Guld had that just served to make the actual intent of the scene unclear for audiences. It made it clear, for instance, that those cones in the scenes where he flew through the missile cloud were computer projections of the flight paths and not the missiles shooting lasers at Guld, which COULD have been an interpretation if the prediction cones were layered on top of the normal visible-light view.

Ultimately, though, it is impossible to illustrate how the BDI actually "looks" to the pilot, because we can't plug a DVD into our brains.

With a canopy, you get total redundancy in case everything sensor/camera goes out. Take note that in fighter mode, there's a higher chance that this'll happen in flight and the pilot will still need visibility. In battroid mode, there's a higher chance that they're on the ground and the pilot wont need to visibility to stop the plane from crashing.

If EVERY camera goes out, your plane has been blasted from so many different directions that it is likely a rapidly expanding ball of plasma regardless. There's a LOT of redundancy inherent in the glass cockpit(as I shall persist in calling it), particularly if it is displaying in 3D(and why wouldn't it, with holographic projection being cheap and easy).

An electrical failure would do it, sure. But it'd ALSO take out your controls.

It seems like modern battroids are much more functional in the air than the older ones were, so I'm not sure "battroids are on the ground" is a safe assumption anymore even for terrestrial combat anymore(and it was never a safe one for space combat, particularly after the advent of super packs).

Though it was a sound assumption in the good ol' days when they were making the VF-1, and such assumptions DO tend to outlive their foundations.

Of course, there are workaround, such as the ejectable armor plate on the VF-27. At the same time however, the fact that the planes already have pin-point barriers, plus the higher chance of them getting hit somewhere else (engined due to head, main fuselage since it's the center of mass, etc.) means that the NUNS doctrine probably thinks that it's extraneous.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think about it. Most things that would hit a cockpit would probably tear through the armor anyway. Especially when rounds that can make whatever they hit just go the hell away into fold space exist.

I find this reasoning more sound than "in case of complete failure of a multiple-redundant system". The glass cockpit DID show up at the same time as the fighter-mounted PPB, and the latter goes a long way towards obviating any need for a more durable cockpit.

[d3v]

It seems like modern battroids are much more functional in the air than the older ones were, so I'm not sure "battroids are on the ground" is a safe assumption anymore even for terrestrial combat anymore(and it was never a safe one for space combat, particularly after the advent of super packs).

Though it was a sound assumption in the good ol' days when they were making the VF-1, and such assumptions DO tend to outlive their foundations.

Battroids still have limited use in the air (in atmosphere) since there's no way then can beat basic aerodynamics. Once the small window of surprise is gone, they're slower moving targets that a faster moving fighter can easily take out. One of the most important factors in survivability for air combat is pure speed ("Speed is life" is one of the cardinals rules of air combat, alongside "Lose sight, lose fight"), something which battroid mode cannot have over fighter move due to drag (as well as the fact that they need to use most of their thrust for lift).

[JB0]

That's fair. But they are far less useless than they used to be, since they DO have enough thrust to stay airborne and dodging. Combined with the much faster mode changes of modern valks mean one can "pop" into battroid mode briefly for 360° shooting and advanced evasive maneuvers(or showboating, depending on how you feel about the immelman dance), then drop back to fighter to get moving again.

Granted, Hayate is a unique pilot and general atmospheric tactics do not seem to call for the pop-up battroid, but...

[Product9]

If you want a good example of modern Valkyries engaging in multi-mode air to air combat, look no further than Sayonara no Tsubasa. The YF-29 vs the VF-27 had a lot of multimode shenanigans. Battroids aren't a liability in air to air combat, because transformations are so fast, and thrust to weight ratios are so high, that one can transform, pop off a few shots, and the transform back to fighter and accelerate to maximum corner velocity almost immediately. The idea of 'losing too much' energy doesn't factor in at all.

Remember what made Max such a good pilot? (IMO) It wasn't that he was especially good at any one mode, but rather he was good at using all modes simultaneously. The transformation ability of the Valkyrie is its chief strength, and pilots who don't get that are missing out. Shinn Kudo from Zero complained that he didn't become a fighter pilot to crawl around on the ground (or something to that effect), and Roy berated him for not understanding the bigger picture.

That said, I believe every pilot to date has shown a pretty clear 'mode preference'. Alto preferred fighter, Basara preferred battroid, etc. It's actually pretty fun to think about (again IMO).

Also, when talking about the armor strength of these things, have you guys forgotten how INSANELY TOUGH the VF-1 was? Remember in DYRL? when Hikaru FLEW THROUGH A BRIDGE in GERWALK mode? Fast forward to 2059, and Alto crash lands his VF-25 on a the rocky surface of a planet with barely a scratch to show for it. And, to top things off, said VF-25 was unpowered at the time, meaning no energy converting armor (I assume).

Valkyries are so resilient I'm kind of surprised they can be shot down at all. I guess that just goes to show how powerful their weapons are.

[Nazareno2012]

Ah, fudge. I was thinking the energy armor was only active in battroid mode. Welp, that completely derails that train of thought.

I have always taken the Plus "Guld's eye view" scenes as more artistic interpretations than literal representations. Like the hanger scene, I don't think Guld was ACTUALLY flexing his hands to control the wings, it was just representational of how "natural" the controls were.

My impression was that, through the BDI, Guld's view WAS the aircraft's view. Which is a remarkably unclear way to say it, but...

The CG fighter scenes I took as a sort of tactical display, distinct from the "normal" in-flight view.

Or, again, artistic interpretation. Removing information Guld had that just served to make the actual intent of the scene unclear for audiences. It made it clear, for instance, that those cones in the scenes where he flew through the missile cloud were computer projections of the flight paths and not the missiles shooting lasers at Guld, which COULD have been an interpretation if the prediction cones were layered on top of the normal visible-light view.

Ultimately, though, it is impossible to illustrate how the BDI actually "looks" to the pilot, because we can't plug a DVD into our brains.

The cones represent the area which the fragmentation warheads of the missiles will cause damage, and Guld flew straight through the missile swarm so that that the missiles detonate behind him. That was a tactic used by B-52 bomber pilots in the Vietnam war to avoid getting hit by missiles fired at them.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ah, fudge. I was thinking the energy armor was only active in battroid mode. Welp, that completely derails that train of thought.

Yeah, a Variable Fighter's energy conversion armor is enabled in an intermediate power level in GERWALK mode... except on fighters that have a fold wave system or fold dimensional resonance system, where it's operating at full power all the time (even in fighter mode).

Also, when talking about the armor strength of these things, have you guys forgotten how INSANELY TOUGH the VF-1 was? Remember in DYRL? when Hikaru FLEW THROUGH A BRIDGE in GERWALK mode? Fast forward to 2059, and Alto crash lands his VF-25 on a the rocky surface of a planet with barely a scratch to show for it. And, to top things off, said VF-25 was unpowered at the time, meaning no energy converting armor (I assume).

Valkyries are so resilient I'm kind of surprised they can be shot down at all. I guess that just goes to show how powerful their weapons are.

Crashing through a bridge in DYRL? was a milder crash than the one he had in the original SDF Macross TV series... where he plowed a stalled VF-1D through an entire row of concrete buildings and it came out the other side without any noticeable additional damage beyond what had caused the crash.

Some of the older technical material like Sky Angels contends that the VF-1's armor material is approximately 100 times stronger (per unit of thickness) than steel.

[Kelsain]

Crashing through a bridge in DYRL? was a milder crash than the one he had in the original SDF Macross TV series... where he plowed a stalled VF-1D through an entire row of concrete buildings and it came out the other side without any noticeable additional damage beyond what had caused the crash.

Besides, that bridge was slapped together for the refugee population of Macross CIty in a month or so? You know that sucker's not up to code...

[tout-puissant]

Also, if you accept that you're watching a movie version, some dramatic license is expected. Or alternatively, they were using a more advanced version of the VF-1 as a stand-in for an actual VF-1 to fly through a bridge for that stunt shot.

Mark

[Product9]

Maybe Macross-era bridges are rated in how many VF-1s they can withstand.

That one was rated at 1/2, or 500 millivalks.

[Seto Kaiba]

Besides, that bridge was slapped together for the refugee population of Macross CIty in a month or so? You know that sucker's not up to code...

Actually, in DYRL?, the SDF-1 Macross was built as an emigrant ship and the city was a pre-existing feature when the ship was launched. That bridge was probably as tough as any other similar bridge in a modern city... which speaks volumes of the Valkyrie's structural strength.

Also, if you accept that you're watching a movie version, some dramatic license is expected. Or alternatively, they were using a more advanced version of the VF-1 as a stand-in for an actual VF-1 to fly through a bridge for that stunt shot.

If you look at it from the "it's a movie" perspective, that shouldn't affect much... the VF-1's would've been filmed using later block VF-1 Valkyries.

[Master Dex]

Actually, in DYRL?, the SDF-1 Macross was built as an emigrant ship and the city was a pre-existing feature when the ship was launched. That bridge was probably as tough as any other similar bridge in a modern city... which speaks volumes of the Valkyrie's structural strength.

Never knew that, heh... it does explain why the city in the movie looked so well put together and detailed, unlike the version in the show which was set up hastily and destroyed and rebuilt every other week.

I'm told city being destroyed often builds character though.

[anime52k8]

Also, if you accept that you're watching a movie version, some dramatic license is expected. Or alternatively, they were using a more advanced version of the VF-1 as a stand-in for an actual VF-1 to fly through a bridge for that stunt shot.

Mark

If were using the "it's just a movie" logic than it was probably a stunt bridge made of Styrofoam

[Product9]

What do you suppose a FOD walk is like in Macross? Just a bunch of guys looking for bridges on the runway?

[JB0]

What do you suppose a FOD walk is like in Macross? Just a bunch of guys looking for bridges on the runway?

"Hey Ed, you see any craters in the runway?"

"Nope. Reckon that'll do for FOD."

Edited June 12, 2016 by JB0

[Sandman]

Actually, in DYRL?, the SDF-1 Macross was built as an emigrant ship and the city was a pre-existing feature when the ship was launched. That bridge was probably as tough as any other similar bridge in a modern city... which speaks volumes of the Valkyrie's structural strength.

Interesting. Where were they immigrating to? And why?

[JB0]

"Why" could most likely be answered as "because an alien warship done crashed itself in our hometown."
It is a less dramatic illustration of the "everybody died in an orbital bombardment" impetus for the TV series immigration. If the wreckage of alien battleships are washing up on your shores, it is safe to say aliens are at war nearby and you stand a good chance of getting caught in the crossfire (which is exactly what happened in both the series and movie).+

"Where" can probably be deduced as "inside the solar system."

If the launch of the Macross was more orderly than in the TV series*, the fold accident may not have happened. IF that assumption holds, then we can deduce their initial colonization target was most likely in the solar system.

Even if the fold accident DID happen, their initial plan was likely not interstellar.

Begin big wall of speculative contemplation!

My logic is... if they are carrying civilians as a pre-planned colonization effort, it means the ship has finished the shakedown cruise, all the tests are done, and all the hardware works. Were they planning to colonize an extrasolar planet, they would've presumably already folded out of the system.

But wait, there's more!
For a species with exactly one working starship... the instant they colonize a world that requires fold travel to reach, then necessity dictates the Macross become a dedicated supply** and communications ship between that colony and Earth. This would be a LOT of defensive power stationed at neither Earth nor Extrasolar Colony One, because the ship spends a lot of time between those two ports. So humanity can't really start colonizing other star systems until a second vessel is ready.***

Likely the Macross would be scheduled to tour the solar system setting up colonies on every chunk of rock or ice reachable with rockets until more fold-capable vessels were operational. The moons of Saturn are prime interplanetary real estate, as are the more obvious targets of Mars and Venus.

And, you know, good ol' Luna, but you don't need overtech to do THAT. It's only a couple days' flight by a conventional H2/O2-fueled rocket.


*That the Macross docked with the ARMD-1 and ARMD-2 instead of jury-rigging the Daedalus and Prometheus, and contains a purpose-built city instead of a jury-rigged one, implies the launch did in fact go much smoother. Exactly how much smoother is unknown. I do seem to recall the movie saying they launched under fire, but I don't recall if they reference the fold accident. They probably do, rendering half of this moot.

** Certainly a colony is intended to be self-sufficient, but there needs to be a safety net while they are getting established. Otherwise they might all get ate by space dinosaurs after the ship leaves. And it seems like FTL communications didn't yet exist at the time of SDF and DYRL.

*** The Megaroad, obviously, was not humanity's only fold-capable vessel when it launched, nor their only one with big freakin' space guns . Even ignoring the Macross, the captured/defected zentradi ships would leave humanity with HUNDREDS of the things. Earth and Extrasolar Colony One can both have a small defensive fleet and run supply/mail ships.

End big wall of speculative contemplation.

+ And IRL there's a lot of good arguments for extraterrestrial colonization we DO know of. The Earth is not intrinsically safe. There are several major extinctions in the fossil record, some of which we can link to devastatingly powerful extraterrestrial events. It only takes one space rock going Yucatan Peninsula on our butts to wreck our entire civilization. But it is likely stretching things to think that the denizens of the Macross universe bear that much more foresight than the citizens of our own.

[Master Dex]

*That the Macross docked with the ARMD-1 and ARMD-2 instead of jury-rigging the Daedalus and Prometheus, and contains a purpose-built city instead of a jury-rigged one, implies the launch did in fact go much smoother. Exactly how much smoother is unknown. I do seem to recall the movie saying they launched under fire, but I don't recall if they reference the fold accident. They probably do, rendering half of this moot.

All of what you said is pretty much good, but it is worth noting that the PS2 DYRL game expands upon the movie by showing the events of the initial attack on Earth (an animated opening exists even, though that might be from a different game). Either way, it clearly shows the Macross launching from Earth just as Zentradi attacks begin but unlike the show where it does the up to space and back down for a trick fold maneuver, it just immediately initiates fold close to ground, not to try to trick the Zentradi attackers, but because they just started mass orbital bombardment of Earth and it was the only chance they had.

It is likely everything was done, tested, and working like you said, but the fold maneuver itself was still done under stress and likely wasn't supposed to shoot them off as far as it did. This also fits with the DYRL lore that Earth was basically wiped out once the Macross left, and likely Global and SDF-1 command knew for the most part since they had an 'official story' in place.

EDIT: Found the video, it is from the Sega Saturn game apparently, but the PS2 one does have an opening level where you fight the first wave of attackers and ends with fold and mass bombardment.

Edited June 12, 2016 by Master Dex

[Sandman]

Ok when I ask questions like that I always mean the in universe explanation. I know why from the production side of things probably more than most.