Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[RedWolf]

It's probably a different microorganism... the V-type bacterium associated with the Vajra caused debilitating illness and eventual death in humans (and human-like organisms) because it took up residence in the brain.

The fold bacterium that's causing the Var syndrome doesn't seem to be killing anyone except by driving them berserk.

In the TV series Ranka magic moved the bacteria from the brain to the stomach. Which to me means they can be programmed.

[Saruta]

I don't recall him saying anything about the Draken's legs in that interview..

I wasn'asking about his words, just the image. It seems to have some module protruding forward between the legs, which to me seems to have an uncanny resemblance to... a certain organ robots do not need.

[Mommar]

I wasn'asking about his words, just the image. It seems to have some module protruding forward between the legs, which to me seems to have an uncanny resemblance to... a certain organ robots do not need.

It's just a flap hanging down like you would see on the skirt of a knight. It in no way looks like a boner.

[Master Dex]

I wasn'asking about his words, just the image. It seems to have some module protruding forward between the legs, which to me seems to have an uncanny resemblance to... a certain organ robots do not need.

Probably just the crotch plate (from the under fuselage) not folded down correctly.

[JB0]

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/olliebarder/files/2016/05/macross_delta_10-1200x675.jpg

This is from the Forbes interview at http://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder/2016/05/28/shoji-kawamori-on-macross-delta-and-his-hopes-for-the-series/#57cd9e9e1210

And it has WHAAAT between the legs?!

Just FYI... you can't hotlink or embed images on forbes.com. They block it. All anyone sees is a file name.

[anime52k8]

I can see it just fine. (the image, not the supposed dick)

[d3v]

Been wondering about this.

Did he fire two beams from two separate guns? Or did he just fire his gunpod twice in quick succession.

Edited June 6, 2016 by d3v

[ManhattanProject972]

Been wondering about this.

Did he fire two beams from two separate guns? Or did he just fire his gunpod twice in quick succession.

Those look like they came from the two head lasers firing backwards.

[azrael]

Those look like they came from the two head lasers firing backwards.

Yeah, looks like Keith is tailing Messer so that would likely make it the head lasers.

On a side note, we now know the VF-31 has no internal fold system considering he ejected the fold booster at a really low orbit.

[Master Dex]

Yeah, looks like Keith is tailing Messer so that would likely make it the head lasers.

On a side note, we now know the VF-31 has no internal fold system considering he ejected the fold booster at a really low orbit.

I never really doubted this (at least after I learned I was wrong about the YF-29 and 30 having self-folding capability since I misunderstood their tech). I figure though if this was the first for that then they'd make a bigger case of it.

Now there does exist a case for the 262 but I'm still skeptical.

[kalvasflam]

I wonder how the little Drakkens are being controlled. The little Drakken took a hit specifically meant for Keith, it didn't just wander into the path of those energy beams. So, this makes me wonder if Keith was somehow controlling it and his own plane at the same time.

I suppose it is possible that the little Drakkens has some form of AI, but their performance seem to be nothing like that of a Ghost. May be they have a set of rudimentary instructions that are given by the pilots which tend translate to a set of specific programs. But that doesn't make sense either, there would be a specific mode where it would be ordered to sacrifice itself to protect the mother ship, those would be very difficult instructions to carry out, since one never knows if the situation would warrant such a sacrifice, and it could not be easily programmed into the drone.

Could their be some type of BDI interface there where the signal is then sent out to the drone?

[calubin_175]

Wikipedia says there are only two versions of the Sv-262 so far, the Hs and the Ba. Macross Delta lists it a Borgue's unit, so is it just a Ba with Borgue's markings?

[azrael]

Wikipedia says there are only two versions of the Sv-262 so far, the Hs and the Ba. Macross Delta lists it a Borgue's unit, so is it just a Ba with Borgue's markings?

Likely yes.

[Graham]

I wonder how the little Drakkens are being controlled. The little Drakken took a hit specifically meant for Keith, it didn't just wander into the path of those energy beams. So, this makes me wonder if Keith was somehow controlling it and his own plane at the same time.

I suppose it is possible that the little Drakkens has some form of AI, but their performance seem to be nothing like that of a Ghost. May be they have a set of rudimentary instructions that are given by the pilots which tend translate to a set of specific programs. But that doesn't make sense either, there would be a specific mode where it would be ordered to sacrifice itself to protect the mother ship, those would be very difficult instructions to carry out, since one never knows if the situation would warrant such a sacrifice, and it could not be easily programmed into the drone.

Could their be some type of BDI interface there where the signal is then sent out to the drone?

I think the Lil' Drakkens likely have a semi-autonomous A.I., with limited freedom of action, depending on instructions received.

No way a pilot could control two separate drones while also flying his own VF in combat.

Probably the pilot has a quick-access, set menu of instructions he can send also, such as "attack locked on target", "protect this SV-262 etc.", which the Lil' Drakken then follows to the best of the A.I.'s ability.

[squaresphere]

I'm wondering what the design decision was to have the Lil' Drakkens act like boosters on a super pack? Now I don't have as much detail research lore in the macross universe but wasn't the super pack concept designed around increased firepower and boosters for space maneuverability?

If I'm recalling correctly don't VF's normally purge their armor in atmosphere to maintain flight capability? I can only remember Ozuma using his full armored pack in MF in gerwalk and battleroid mode while actually in Island 1.

[JB0]

I'm wondering what the design decision was to have the Lil' Drakkens act like boosters on a super pack? Now I don't have as much detail research lore in the macross universe but wasn't the super pack concept designed around increased firepower and boosters for space maneuverability?

Initially, yes. The concept has grown a lot since Space War 1, and packs are now treated as just a way to offer one plane that can be configured multiple ways..

If I'm recalling correctly don't VF's normally purge their armor in atmosphere to maintain flight capability? I can only remember Ozuma using his full armored pack in MF in gerwalk and battleroid mode while actually in Island 1.

It varies from valk to valk, and sometimes with pack set on the same valk. Some packs are more aerodynamic than others, with a few being positively formhugging(The Plus valks spring to mind).

[Lorindor]

Please excuse me butting in, but I feel I have to intervene with the manhandling of the Swedish language in this thread...

The SV-262 is called Draken III. Draken, not Drakken nor Draaken. For information, it's also pronounced with a long A sound, like 'drah-ken'.

Now carry on.

[tout-puissant]

Also, the katakana for the drones pretty much spells them out as "Lil Draken", and not "little" - Ri-ru, not Ri-to-ru or somesuch. I got schooled on that earlier on in this thread.

Mark

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm wondering what the design decision was to have the Lil' Drakkens act like boosters on a super pack? Now I don't have as much detail research lore in the macross universe but wasn't the super pack concept designed around increased firepower and boosters for space maneuverability?

If I'm recalling correctly don't VF's normally purge their armor in atmosphere to maintain flight capability? I can only remember Ozuma using his full armored pack in MF in gerwalk and battleroid mode while actually in Island 1.

's hardly the first time a Variable Fighter has used an attached drone as an ersatz booster pack for its Super Parts... this concept previously appeared in Macross Zero as the VF-0 Phoenix Special Attack Spec. and in the Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa movie as the VF-27γ's Super Pack.

The original generation of Option Packs (e.g. Super Pack, Armored Pack, Strike Pack) were developed as a way to work around the shortcomings of the VF-1's design that were imposed, in part, by constraining the fighter's size to roughly the estimated size of an alien infantryman and to expand its operational versatility. For instance, the Super Pack was developed to address the VF-1's low endurance in space flight via extra, bolt-on fuel tanks for the main engines and a pair of hybrid rocket boosters to supplement their output and reduce their utilization. In later generations of variable fighter, these issues had already been addressed in the fighter's "naked" configuration and option packs became more about extending armor, armament, and maximizing performance.

With conventional (read: space use) Super Parts, it is generally expected that a VF will purge the option packs before entering atmosphere... but not always. Several types of option pack have been designed to be used in atmospheric flight. The first (production-wise) was the VF-1改 Refined Valkyrie's Super Pack II in Macross 2036, which was presented as an all-regime Super Pack. Macross Plus and Macross 7 also presented all-regime versions of Super Packs for the VF-11, VF-17, and VF-19 (seen during Operation Stargazer). Macross Frontier's movies added three more: the VF-25's Tornado Pack, the VF-27's Super Pack, and the YF-29's Super Pack. The Sv-262 Draken III seems to be taking a lot of pointers from the YF-29, so it's not altogether surprising that it's using its Lilldrakens as atmospheric flight boosters.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[UN Spacy]

Take this with a grain of salt. But someone mentioned on 4chan...

...there's a good chance Hayate might be getting Ghosts to accompany him.

マキナは中島雷造の孫娘か、マクロス史におけるメカニックの名門

マキナがハヤテのVF-31JにMMPブースターにゴーストつんで、VF-31JMSP(マキナスペシャルパック)

[kalvasflam]

As far as the Little DRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKens ( )are concerned, it would make sense that they are semi-autonomous. I guess Luca's ghost did the same thing in the final episode of Mac F. This does make me wonder why the drones are selectively launched with the Draken, and not just autonomous units by themselves. I've seen at least a couple of instances where the Drakens are used to change vectors very quickly, but seems strange that they have essentially a detachable FAST pack. But may be they are performance enhancers.

Also, wasn't sure if I saw this correctly, i thought Keith ejected his micro-missile launchers during the fight with Messer. I wonder if that's a part of the Draken's FAST pack as well. I don't think they actually have anything like what the VF-31 has in terms of packs.

Is the VF-27 pack a drone? I don't ever think Brera launched it that way. May be in addition to boosters, they are the control unit for the ghosts that accompanied him.

[azrael]

Take this with a grain of salt. But someone mentioned on 4chan...

...there's a good chance Hayate might be getting Ghosts to accompany him.

マキナは中島雷造の孫娘か、マクロス史におけるメカニックの名門

マキナがハヤテのVF-31JにMMPブースターにゴーストつんで、VF-31JMSP(マキナスペシャルパック)

Won't be the first time Ghosts have been deployed against (what are essential) Ghosts. Here's to hoping he doesn't trash them like he does his VF. Yeah, who am I kidding. Does Haya-Haya even have a paycheck anymore???

[Seto Kaiba]

Also, wasn't sure if I saw this correctly, i thought Keith ejected his micro-missile launchers during the fight with Messer. I wonder if that's a part of the Draken's FAST pack as well.

It certainly appears that the micro-missile launchers are an externally-mounted conformal pack on the Draken III based on the official art on Macross.jp.

Is the VF-27 pack a drone? I don't ever think Brera launched it that way. May be in addition to boosters, they are the control unit for the ghosts that accompanied him.

Yep. Per Macross Chronicle, the big dorsal booster is a QF-5100D Goblin II drone which can be detached from the VF-27 and operated remotely via the brainwave control system.

[Master Dex]

It certainly appears that the micro-missile launchers are an externally-mounted conformal pack on the Draken III based on the official art on Macross.jp.

In fact if you look at the mecha section of the Macross Delta official site it shows seperate pics of each of the Draken with and without their add-on packs. You can clearly see there are strap on portions on the legs as well as having the lil Draken on the wings.

[VF-9 Cirno]

So....

Double spoiling just in case.

Anyone want to compare the cockpit glass of a VF-0A taking a hit from a SV-51's gunpod, and the cockpit glass of a VF-31 taking a nose laser (beam cannon? I forgot which it is) from a SV-262?

One made one hell of a mess and pretty much ripped the nose off the VF.

The other made a tiny hole...and still left a pretty big mess.

Its just that there's been a massive increase in hull armor enhancement between the two time periods. So much so that its unlikely a SV-51's gunpod would so much as even damage a VF-31, with its vastly higher amount of active ECA.

Edited June 8, 2016 by VF-9 Cirno

[Master Dex]

So....

Double spoiling just in case.

Anyone want to compare the cockpit glass of a VF-0A taking a hit from a SV-51's gunpod, and the cockpit glass of a VF-31 taking a nose laser (beam cannon? I forgot which it is) from a SV-262?

One made one hell of a mess and pretty much ripped the nose off the VF.

The other made a tiny hole...and still left a pretty big mess.

Its just that there's been a massive increase in hull armor enhancement between the two time periods. So much so that its unlikely a SV-51's gunpod would so much as even damage a VF-31, with its vastly higher amount of active ECA.

It is well past the spoiler statute of limitations now, you're ok.

Anyway, typically a head laser, while not weak, is less damaging than a gunpod bullet. Also I'm pretty sure the VF-0 didn't have much in ECS because it didn't have the thermonuclear reaction engines to power it. There is some question on if ECS strengthens the canopy too. I'll defer to an expert there.

The VF-31 does have ECS in all modes (ECS in Fighter mode is a relatively new thing made possible by a newer reaction engine design) but Messer was pushing his fighter more than usual and had already taken damage. He was flying, and even speaking like, this was the last confrontation he'd have with Keith one way or the other. I think Keith knew he could manage that kill with a precision laser shot, and knew he had the skill to pull it off.

[Seto Kaiba]

Anyone want to compare the cockpit glass of a VF-0A taking a hit from a SV-51's gunpod, and the cockpit glass of a VF-31 taking a nose laser (beam cannon? I forgot which it is) from a SV-262?

[...]

Its just that there's been a massive increase in hull armor enhancement between the two time periods. So much so that its unlikely a SV-51's gunpod would so much as even damage a VF-31, with its vastly higher amount of active ECA.

I forget, what was the directionality of the shot in Zero? Did it come up through the bottom of the cockpit or down through the top?

Mind you, we're talking a MASSIVE difference in armor quality there. In GERWALK mode the VF-0's armor was roughly as tough as that of a well-armored attack helicopter, and in Battroid it was on par with your modern MBT. To put that in perspective with other VFs, that's about 1/3 the armor strength of a VF-1, 1/8th the armor strength of a VF-17 or VF-171, and I hesitate to even compute the armor strength a VF-31 or YF-29 would have, as the latter is said to have four times the defensive ability of the VF-25 w/ Armored Pack, and the "naked" VF-25 was at least as well-armored as a VF-171.

Anyway, typically a head laser, while not weak, is less damaging than a gunpod bullet.

... aaaaaactually, that may not always be the case. We don't often get power output figures for coaxial or wing glove-mounted dimension, beam, or laser weapons, but from in the VF-1's generation the anti-aircraft laser cannon mounted on the monitor turret was actually slightly more powerful than a gunpod bullet. Bear in mind, when I say that I mean a 1 second discharge imparts more energy to the target than one gunpod bullet, and we all know the virtue of a rotary cannon is that quantity has a certain quality all its own. The difference isn't huge, about 132kJ (~2.7%) in the laser's favor, but it's still pretty damned impressive for such a small weapon.

As generator outputs climbed through the generations, it's probable that energy weapons have also increased dramatically in power.

Also I'm pretty sure the VF-0 didn't have much in ECA because it didn't have the thermonuclear reaction engines to power it. There is some question on if ECA strengthens the canopy too. I'll defer to an expert there.

Very true... the VF-0 Phoenix and Sv-51 were both rather under-armored compared to later VFs as a result of having to use conventional (overtuned) turbofans for power generation. I did some rough, back of the envelope math with a friend of mine from Boeing a while back and we concluded the VF-0 probably had less than 1/10th the generator output of a VF-1 if its turbofans were doubling as turboshaft generators.

Whether the canopy enjoys the same protection as the rest of the aircraft via energy conversion armor is unclear, but my guess would be "no" since they generally slap an armored cover over it instead in battroid mode. It's made of some seriously tough stuff that's similarly durable to the hypercarbon the rest of the airframe is made of, but that'd leave it somewhat weaker than the rest of the armor in battroid mode.

The VF-31 does have ECA in all modes (ECA in Fighter mode is a relatively new thing made possible by a newer reaction engine design) but Messer was pushing his fighter more than usual and had already taken damage. He was flying, and even speaking like, this was the last confrontation he'd have with Keith one way or the other. I think Keith knew he could manage that kill with a precision laser shot, and knew he had the skill to pull it off.

Also true, though it's worth noting that we're not 100% sure if the VF-31's used by Kaos's PMC forces have a fold dimension resonance or fold wave system... if they do, that means the VF-31 could potentially have been running its energy conversion armor at full power in all modes using energy drawn from super dimension space. If not, its Stage II thermonuclear reaction engines would've supplied enough power to run light energy conversion armor around vital areas at the very least, as on the VF-25. The cockpit is naturally one of the areas marked out for that extra protection.

[squaresphere]

Wow great stuff guys!. I'd also throw out there that, depending on how premeditate Keith's strategy was, he might have had the laser tuned to have a higher output for this one shot.

At the same time, is the "durability" of energy conversion armor regenerative? ie if given time does it re strengthen after being hit? I suppose that would make it more barrier shield like than true armor.

[Seto Kaiba]

Wow great stuff guys!. I'd also throw out there that, depending on how premeditate Keith's strategy was, he might have had the laser tuned to have a higher output for this one shot.

In all likelihood it's probably a beam machine gun since it's a fixed cannon... lasers are normally for the more fiddly coaxial mountings on the monitor turret so they can be used to intercept missiles with their wider field of fire.

(Plus the Aerial Knights seem to really have a hardon for dimension weapons, so it could even be a converging energy gun...)

At the same time, is the "durability" of energy conversion armor regenerative? ie if given time does it re strengthen after being hit? I suppose that would make it more barrier shield like than true armor.

Nah, energy conversion armor isn't like a force field inside the armor material (ala Star Trek's structural integrity field or Gundam 00's GN armor), it's a layered, laminated, electromagnetically-responsive smart material that becomes significantly more resilient when exposed to certain types of electromagnetic pulses. Damaging the armor on one part of the fighter won't weaken the armor elsewhere on the fighter, unless the damage cuts off power to the EMP generators downstream of the damaged area. By the same token, the damaged area won't be restored to full defensive ability until the physical armor material is repaired or replaced.

[azrael]

At the same time, is the "durability" of energy conversion armor regenerative? ie if given time does it re strengthen after being hit? I suppose that would make it more barrier shield like than true armor.

One way to describe ECA is, it's like taking a piece of aluminum foil, running an electrical current through it, and it becomes as tough as 5 mm of titanium yet still retaining the thickness of that aluminum foil. Instead of just needing the force of your arm and finger to put a hole into the foil, you're going to need an RPG to put a hole in that foil.

[Master Dex]

So I recently got a DX YF-29B (thanks again Duymon) and I started to wonder something about the wing mounted boosters. This question can apply to the VF-27 as well:

Since the wing boosters are not add on engines and are smaller than the main engines in the legs, do they actually have their own smaller reaction engines or do they just siphon heat from the main engines to superheat intake air?

Now I already think that it is more likely they have smaller engines because 1. The wing boosters have no connection to the leg engines in Gerwalk or Battroid modes, and 2. It would make it less useful in space since it wouldn't add to thrust considering how reaction weapons are used in space (though since they can pivot that makes them useful for maneuvers).

This opens up a side curiosity though: are the boosters on modern super packs (such as on the VF-25 and 31) using reaction engines? I know the VF-1's boosters were hybrid rockets but after 60 years I'm sure they use something more advanced.

[Seto Kaiba]

So I recently got a DX YF-29B (thanks again Duymon) and I started to wonder something about the wing mounted boosters. This question can apply to the VF-27 as well:

Since the wing boosters are not add on engines and are smaller than the main engines in the legs, do they actually have their own smaller reaction engines or do they just siphon heat from the main engines to superheat intake air?

They have their own engines... the VF-27's wing-mounted engines are the same type as the ones mounted in the legs (FF-3011/C), while the YF-29 uses an improved version of the VF-25 engine in the legs (the FF-3001/FC1) and a new model of engine in the wing pods (FF-3003J/FC1).

Based on the official material on the VF-27 and the coverage of the prototype in Macross the Ride, the VF-27 appears to actually need those four engines to do all the things it does... like powering that monster beam rifle, running its energy conversion armor and pin-point barrier in fighter mode, etc. On the YF-29, the four engines appear to be more for agility and speed rather than generator output.

This opens up a side curiosity though: are the boosters on modern super packs (such as on the VF-25 and 31) using reaction engines? I know the VF-1's boosters were hybrid rockets but after 60 years I'm sure they use something more advanced.

They're still chemical rockets... presumably using more advanced overtechnology material fuels.

[Master Dex]

They have their own engines... the VF-27's wing-mounted engines are the same type as the ones mounted in the legs (FF-3011/C), while the YF-29 uses an improved version of the VF-25 engine in the legs (the FF-3001/FC1) and a new model of engine in the wing pods (FF-3003J/FC1).

Based on the official material on the VF-27 and the coverage of the prototype in Macross the Ride, the VF-27 appears to actually need those four engines to do all the things it does... like powering that monster beam rifle, running its energy conversion armor and pin-point barrier in fighter mode, etc. On the YF-29, the four engines appear to be more for agility and speed rather than generator output.

They're still chemical rockets... presumably using more advanced overtechnology material fuels.

Ok, that makes sense. I guess the wing thrusters on the 27 are bigger than I recall (was not looking at any pics when writing that since I was on break from work, which is ironically, working on jet engines, lol). Though clearly they have a different nozzle setup instead of the specialized 'feet' nozzles in the legs. As for the 29. I figured it would have to be a different engine because the thruster is smaller enough than the leg sections that I just couldn't believe they'd be the same type.

That's amazing their still chemical (hybrid will always make the most sense for their size. Pure liquid would require extra tank space and more plumbing, and solid of course can't throttle on demand or shut off). You are probably right that they have special fuels, likely with higher enthalpy, but there is a limit to that (then again.. we are talking about overtechnology...). I guess they should be chemical since they are discarded so easily. Reaction engines are probably expensive.

[azrael]

That's amazing their still chemical (hybrid will always make the most sense for their size. Pure liquid would require extra tank space and more plumbing, and solid of course can't throttle on demand or shut off). You are probably right that they have special fuels, likely with higher enthalpy, but there is a limit to that (then again.. we are talking about overtechnology...). I guess they should be chemical since they are discarded so easily. Reaction engines are probably expensive.

The reaction engines generate electricity. Otherwise, the principle is still the same as a conventional turbofan jet engine. Something has to come out of the other end of the engine to push the vehicle along. Since space has no air to throw out, they have to use some kind of propellant. Until some form of new engine comes along which uses different form of propulsion, this is how VF engines work. In space, VF reaction engines are basically rocket engines. That's how it's been.

[Master Dex]

The reaction engines generate electricity. Otherwise, the principle is still the same as a conventional turbofan jet engine. Something has to come out of the other end of the engine to push the vehicle along. Since space has no air to throw out, they have to use some kind of propellant. Until some form of new engine comes along which uses different form of propulsion, this is how VF engines work. In space, VF reaction engines are basically rocket engines. That's how it's been.

I wasn't disputing that (I've technically studied rocket science as part of my degree, heh). Actually though, and Seto will surely come by to confirm this with more technical language than I care to use now, in space VF engines propel via expelling the reaction products from the fusion process. This happens in air too but it is combined with inlet air to increase thrust and efficiently. According to Seto, who says this comes from Master File (so not 100% canon but still, more detailed than anything else) they just ramp up the fusion process in space to the point where the fusion reaction products are enough to achieve similar thrust. It's crazy inefficient but overtech apparently enables them to do it. It also means they only need to carry fuel for the reaction and not a ton of propellant. This makes sense cause to do the stuff they do in the show they'd need massive propellant tanks to hold it all. Yes we can call it anime magic... but if we have one good explanation... I just assume go with that.