Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[Nekko Basara]

what do you think of Delta team not using delta wings?. I loved one passage of the Macross the First about the 9 series Valks (VF-9, VF-19 and VF-29) as being the ones with swept forward wings and I think it would make so much more sense for the engineering, mythology and the series title to have all VF-31 with delta wings. I believe that they chose to use the swept forward wings in order for the plane to imitate the valkure hand gesture of the "W". It really bothers me somehow

I wasn't aware of the -9 theory, but my inertial reaction is that it doesn't make sense given the way VF designations are assigned serially and loosely mimic the US Tri-Service system. There are decades of time difference, different manufacturers, and widely different circumstances separating those craft. To use an analogy, if the F-5, F-15, and F-35 share any major design elements, it's due to coincidence or common requirements, not due to some overarching plan based on their designations (and it certainly wouldn't mean no other US fighter could use that element).

As far as Macross Delta not having delta-winged hero valks, I think your answer is a good one. Kawamori chose to mirror the name/symbol of Walkure rather than the name/symbol of the series. As long as that's not the in-universe explanation (i.e. Delta squadron literally modified the aircraft design for that reason), that seems like an artistic choice that feels like six or one-half-dozen to me.

(Personally, I dislike most FSW aircraft aesthetically and I'd prefer that they were as rare in Macross as they are in real-world designs, but that's just my taste.)

[calubin_175]

So were those in episode 3 VF-1EX or VF-X?

Was this the first time the VF-1 appeared in CG or did Frontier have one too?

[Nazareno2012]

So were those in episode 3 VF-1EX or VF-X?

Was this the first time the VF-1 appeared in CG or did Frontier have one too?

It is the VF-1EX, and a VF-1 appeared in Frontier as a static display only.

[d3v]

what do you think of Delta team not using delta wings?. I loved one passage of the Macross the First about the 9 series Valks (VF-9, VF-19 and VF-29) as being the ones with swept forward wings and I think it would make so much more sense for the engineering, mythology and the series title to have all VF-31 with delta wings. I believe that they chose to use the swept forward wings in order for the plane to imitate the valkure hand gesture of the "W". It really bothers me somehow

The simplest answer would be Kawamori not wanting to have a design that looks just like the previous one (YF-30 Chronos), which still having as the production variant of it (which is why the A model has delta wings).

[Seto Kaiba]

I wonder how turning off the AI limited on the VF-1EX (or any other variable fighter) works. I assume it's just analogous to cutting off the alpha limiter on a real fighter jet, except it doesn't just cover angle of attack. I mean, there's no way he can continue to ply if the fly by wire was actually turned off.

Point of order... what Hayate turned off was a training support/safety AI that was apparently built into the VF-1EX to prevent trainee pilots from crashing. The displays actually refer to it as a "Snap Guide Support" system, and it seems (entertainingly) to work much like the auto-level function in Ace Combat... overriding pilot input and pushing the aircraft back to level flight at a safe altitude if the trainee messes up and causes a stall or something else life-threatening.

Had Hayate turned off the airframe control AI (presumably the same Brunhilde/ARIEL II system used by the YF-30?) then he would have crashed for sure because he would've cut off the entire control system and turned the plane into a brick.

what do you think of Delta team not using delta wings?. I loved one passage of the Macross the First about the 9 series Valks (VF-9, VF-19 and VF-29) as being the ones with swept forward wings and I think it would make so much more sense for the engineering, mythology and the series title to have all VF-31 with delta wings. I believe that they chose to use the swept forward wings in order for the plane to imitate the valkure hand gesture of the "W". It really bothers me somehow

I'm actually vaguely annoyed by it, since the VF-31A is IMO far and away the better looking of the two VF-31 versions.

It's always been a funny little in-joke that the -9 VFs have sword names and forward-swept wings... the sole exception being Rod's YF-29B Percival.

So were those in episode 3 VF-1EX or VF-X?

Was this the first time the VF-1 appeared in CG or did Frontier have one too?

VF-1EX apparently. VF-X was the designation of the first VF-1 prototype.

Macross Pachinko Fever had some CG VF-1's animated in it, but this is the first time a proper series has done it.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[kajnrig]

I haven't watched the episode yet, but does the VF-1 transform, or is it a fighter-only CGI model?

[Seto Kaiba]

I haven't watched the episode yet, but does the VF-1 transform, or is it a fighter-only CGI model?

All three modes.

[kajnrig]

All three modes.

Oh, be still my beating heart...

[Sandman]

What did you guys think of the cg model of the vf-1? It seemed to me not as refined as the vf-31. The gunpod didn't quite look right to me. It seemed to be longer but that may be due to the ex model changing it?

[azrael]

What did you guys think of the cg model of the vf-1? It seemed to me not as refined as the vf-31. The gunpod didn't quite look right to me. It seemed to be longer but that may be due to the ex model changing it?

They also screwed up the transformation. The cockpit/nose section broke away as if it was ejecting.

(spoiler for size)

[Mr March]

What did you guys think of the cg model of the vf-1? It seemed to me not as refined as the vf-31. The gunpod didn't quite look right to me. It seemed to be longer but that may be due to the ex model changing it?

I love it. I admit, the move to CG does make the look of the VF-1 Valkyrie feel a little weird. This is a mechanical design we've always known as line art and all the "proportion cheats" and other magic that was used to make all three modes look so perfect when drawn by hand. We have had the plastic models and CG models in books like the Master File series, but seeing it animated is something else entirely. The physical compromises of a CG model means the VF-1 Valkyrie will look different. But I think it was incredibly well done. The design compromises feel carefully thought out, although I was hoping they would be inspired to steal some of the design sensibilities from the 1/72 scale Hasegawa kits, since I have always felt those proportions for the Battroid mode are still some of the best renditions of a real physical version of the VF-1 Valkyrie.

But overall, I'm very pleased with the look.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Mr March

[Sandman]

I'll have to watch the scene again but i thought i saw the turbine covers being on in fighter mode? I did like the use of the wing flaps. That looked cool.

[Raptor One]

It is the VF-1EX, and a VF-1 appeared in Frontier as a static display only.

There was also a shot of a VF-1 that Ranka used at one of her concerts in the second movie.

[David Hingtgen]

Ah, but the -9 series also share names, not just FSW-----Cutlass, Excalibur, Durandal-----they're all named after swords.

3 valks, 3 FSW, 3 swords. It's more than coincidence at this point.

[Bariaburu Faita]

Producer Kawamori reportedly has a massive design portfolio filled with every unpublished valkyrie variant. Some of these were shown on rotation at the henkei event at the Tezuka Museum.

What about the VF-2? 3? 5? Or even the VF-16? Some of those have been mentioned, but aside from foot notes about being competing fighters or engines being used in other VFs, that's all we know.

[Sandman]

I'd would love to know what a Kawamori VF-2 looks like.

[JB0]

They also screwed up the transformation. The cockpit/nose section broke away as if it was ejecting.

(spoiler for size)

Well, how else are they gonna sell is BluRays if not by promising that Makina reviewed and corrected the CG?

[Valkyrie Driver]

So the VF-19 is basically the Porsche 911 of Valkyries/variable fighters, where the unusual configuration (forward swept wing vs the Porsche's rear engine) leads to it having tricky handling and a reputation as something of a widowmaker?

Does that then make the FSW variants of the VF-31 the equivalent of later 911s (996, 997, 991) that have largely overcome the tricky handling factor?

I think that the more accurate car comparison to the Y/VF-19A-E series would be a Lamborghini, big, insane acceleration, bonkers handling, and terrifyingly unstable. The only thing keeping it going in a straight line is the flight control computer. It's much like the F-16 and F-18 in that regard. That's just me, since from everything I've heard the Porsche 911's are rather tame when compared to the big lambo's. Characteristics that seem to be ascribed to the YF-19 and it's successors as well. I also seem to remember seeing a YF-19 paint scheme on an Aventador, but I can't seem to find it now.

I wonder how turning off the AI limited on the VF-1EX (or any other variable fighter) works. I assume it's just analogous to cutting off the alpha limiter on a real fighter jet, except it doesn't just cover angle of attack. I mean, there's no way he can continue to ply if the fly by wire was actually turned off.

Following the car analogy, perhaps it's like turning the dial to the track setting...

[d3v]

I think that the more accurate car comparison to the Y/VF-19A-E series would be a Lamborghini, big, insane acceleration, bonkers handling, and terrifyingly unstable. The only thing keeping it going in a straight line is the flight control computer. It's much like the F-16 and F-18 in that regard. That's just me, since from everything I've heard the Porsche 911's are rather tame when compared to the big lambo's. Characteristics that seem to be ascribed to the YF-19 and it's successors as well. I also seem to remember seeing a YF-19 paint scheme on an Aventador, but I can't seem to find it now.

Well, classic Lambos were more known for setting themselves on fire. The 911 comparison comes from the fact that the classic cars were known as widowmakers due to a design quirk unique to them (rear engine).

Following the car analogy, perhaps it's like turning the dial to the track setting...

Makes sense, since the track/race modes of most sports care specifically turn off the electronic nannies (or make you think they do).

[ManhattanProject972]

I wonder how turning off the AI limited on the VF-1EX (or any other variable fighter) works. I assume it's just analogous to cutting off the alpha limiter on a real fighter jet, except it doesn't just cover angle of attack. I mean, there's no way he can continue to ply if the fly by wire was actually turned off.

I think it more like turning down the traction and stability management in car slightly as opposed to turning it off completely, you'd probably need reaction speeds faster than a computer to handle a VF without a Fly-by-wire system.

gg_Macross_Delta_-_02_EA738580.mkv_snapshot_09.34_2016.04.11_17.15.37.jpggg_Macross_Delta_-_02_EA738580.mkv_snapshot_09.35_2016.04.11_17.16.10.jpggg_Macross_Delta_-_02_EA738580.mkv_snapshot_09.54_2016.04.17_10.19.03.jpggg_Macross_Delta_-_02_EA738580.mkv_snapshot_11.43_2016.04.17_10.23.19.jpggg_Macross_Delta_-_03_F342ECEA.mkv_snapshot_01.25_2016.04.18_13.02.34.jpg

I'm starting to think the Elysion's class was developed alongside the Quarter class is the base of the foot is just as movable.

I think I remember reading somewhere that the Quarter was a modular ship made up of smaller ships, so perhaps it is a Quarter with different modules for its legs and arms?

[Scyla]

Has someone already investigated if the gun-pod tonfas of the VF-31 are actually able to hit anything. From my limited knowledge of guns inside fighter jets I always assumed that they are not shooting perfectly straight but rather their line of fire meets somewhere in front of the aircraft to maximize the effect and the pilot is actually able to aim at something. From episode 3 of Macross Delta I assume that:

Messer shot Hayate during his final test with some paint-gun rounds form the gun tonfas since the main weapon of the VF-31 seems to be a beam rifle.

Taken this into account can the VF-31 actually shoot something effectively with the way the gun tonfas are placed alongside the turbines? I assume the gun tonfas need to be canted at an angle to work effectively so that their line of fire meets somewhere in front of the aircraft.

What would be the effective shooting distance of the VF-31 and would that be practicable in real life?

Feel free to correct me on my assumptions.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Scyla

[grigolosi]

As far as I know most FBW system FLCS cannot be turned off. I know in the F-16 it has 3 modes reset, norm and maintenance. The pilot always places it in norm prior to engine start and the panel is in a position in the cockpit as to not let the pilot accidentally hit the switch and the WoW (Weight on Wheel) switches in the gear disable the maintenance mode once airborne. They have to be actually trying to switch it in order to reach for it. As for limiters and such, the Alpha limits are set parameters in the FLCC. The only way to change them is to reprogram the computer. Currently test wings are the only ones that actually do this or use these FLCC systems for out of envelope testing. Seto is correct the aircraft would become a brick with an engine that you couldn't control, not the makings for a good flight. These are all safety precautions built in so flight suit inserts (no offense to your dad intended Valkyrie, this is how crew chiefs refer to the bad pilots) can't make catastrophic switchology mistakes.

FSW aircraft may not be as pretty to look at but if you want high inherent instability, especially for a fighter it is the way to go.

Scyla you are correct as to the way the guns are boresighted. They are sighted to have the rounds converge at a certain range in front. Even in aircraft with one internally mounted gun they are sighted to center in front of the aircraft at a certain range. The range itself is set by the effective range of the rounds and is usually several hundred yards. The cant is subtle enough that when you look at it you really don't notice it just looking at it on the ground. The mounting area isn't so much a question as there have been quite a few fighters that have been designed with guns mounted under or along the intake areas. The main issue would be gun gases going down the intake and choking the engine.

Edited April 19, 2016 by grigolosi

[Nazareno2012]

Has someone already investigated if the gun-pod tonfas of the VF-31 are actually able to hit anything. From my limited knowledge of guns inside fighter jets I always assumed that they are not shooting perfectly straight but rather their line of fire meets somewhere in front of the aircraft to maximize the effect and the pilot is actually able to aim at something. From episode 3 of Macross Delta I assume that:

Messer shot Hayate during his final test with some paint-gun rounds form the gun tonfas since the main weapon of the VF-31 seems to be a beam rifle.

Taken this into account can the VF-31 actually shoot something effectively with the way the gun tonfas are placed alongside the turbines? I assume the gun tonfas need to be canted at an angle to work effectively so that their line of fire meets somewhere in front of the aircraft.

What would be the effective shooting distance of the VF-31 and would that be practicable in real life?

Feel free to correct me on my assumptions.

Maybe the fire control computer onboard the VF-31 automatically adjusts the positioning of the guns based on the distance to the target.

[d3v]

I think it more like turning down the traction and stability management in car slightly as opposed to turning it off completely, you'd probably need reaction speeds faster than a computer to handle a VF without a Fly-by-wire system.

I think I remember reading somewhere that the Quarter was a modular ship made up of smaller ships, so perhaps it is a Quarter with different modules for its legs and arms?

Except that even the chest/torso area is also different.

Maybe the fire control computer onboard the VF-31 automatically adjusts the positioning of the guns based on the distance to the target.

Based on the fact that, since Frontier, guns seem to "lock on" to their target, I assume that the their targeting systems are able to automatically point the gun in the correct direction once it's locked on. Edited April 19, 2016 by d3v

[Kelsain]

The Elysion could also be another variation of the Quarter.

Remember: Battle 5,7, 13, Galaxy & Frontier are all New Macross class carriers that have appeared in animation, and they all look very different.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Kelsain

[d3v]

As some of us have pointed out in the episode 2 thread, the Elysion has alot of differences from the Quarter class, more than (as some of us would contend) what you'd see in other ships of that class (all the Quarter's we've seen aren't as different as the Elysion). Also, the Elysion might actually be bigger than the Quarter (noticeable when you compare the CV/C-109 to the ARMD-L).

[Mommar]

Elysion is definitely a Quarter Class vessel. It's just styled to look a lot more like the classic SDF-1 in the legs/thighs and Torso area plus the two similar carries attached at the arms.

Minus the arms its rear profile is practically identical. There's cosmetic stuff on the front of it that makes it look different but it's definitely a Quarter.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Mommar

[d3v]

Doesn't make up for the size discrepancy. Based on observations from the episode 2 thread, it's somewhat larger than the Quarter class.

To quote from that thread (including my own observations).

I'd say the Elysium is a new class of ship that just borrows design cues from the Quarter class. There's a shot of it where you can see it to scale with some other buildings and it seems to be way bigger than the "Empire State sized" Quarter.

A key detail is that the deck of the CV/C-109 seems to be larger than that on the Quarter's ARMD-L, with a much bigger area for parking planes.

If we know the size of the Valks, can you use the ones on the deck as a measure?

The deck looks longer than the quarter's from frontier, and hence the whole ship would be larger.

Let's just call it Macross Half . If the VF-31s are about the same size as the VF-25s:

Macross Quarter ARMD-L full view:

Screenshot 2016-04-12 at 09.00.04.png

Macross Quarter Partial ARMD-L with VF-25's on deck:

Screenshot 2016-04-12 at 08.49.28.pngScreenshot 2016-04-12 at 08.45.42.png

VF-25 on Lift:

Screenshot 2016-04-12 at 08.47.01.png

Interesting that the sides can split or fold. Looks like that new carrier can launch up to 5 valks at a time (9 if you count the short angled ones) vs 3 for the ARMD-L. One in the middle (maybe for a bigger VB-6 type since it leads straight into the bigger middle hangar and 4 on each section that splits.

Screenshot 2016-04-12 at 09.14.19.png Screenshot 2016-04-12 at 09.35.50.png

[Nazareno2012]

Doesn't make up for the size discrepancy. Based on observations from the episode 2 thread, it's somewhat larger than the Quarter class.

To quote from that thread (including my own observations).

That's why from the start I think it is a scaled-up Quarter design, which is the reason why the bridge is proportionally smaller than the Quarter's.

[d3v]

That's why from the start I think it is a scaled-up Quarter design, which is the reason why the bridge is proportionally smaller than the Quarter's.

But "scaled up" doesn't seem to be an accurate description, not when the only thing it shares with the Quarter is the general outline of the torso and those shoulder extentions (the details of the actual torso are quite different) and placement of some of the batteries (the Elysion has more guns). While it looks to be based on the Quarter design, I'd say that it's different enough to be a different class. Like how you wouldn't call a YF-29 a VF-25 (despite both being derived from the YF-24).

[areaseven]

New lineart for regular and Mirage units now available on the official site.

[Seto Kaiba]

New lineart for regular and Mirage units now available on the official site.

Not really "new", but new to the website at least... for those who want this in print, it's also in the last issue of Great Mechanics G and the Macross Modelers pamphlet.

[d3v]

Going through the Japanese wiki page gives us this.

ケイオス・ラグナ支部の拠点であるマクロス級戦艦。艦形は前作のマクロス・クォーター級に近いが、サイズは第一世代型マクロス級やバトル級に匹敵する。劇中では過去作のマクロス級と異なり、最初から強攻型（人型）の姿で登場する

Whick, google translates as.

Macross-class battleship is a base of Chaos Laguna branch. Kangata is close to the previous work of the Macross Quarter grade, size is comparable to the first-generation Macross class and battle class. Unlike the Macross class of past work is in the play, which appeared in the figure of the first from Kyoko type (human type)

So it definitely is a larger ship than the Quarter since both the original Macross class and later Battle class both exceed 1,000 meters in length.

Of course, this is all from a wiki so take it with a grain or two of salt.

Edited April 20, 2016 by d3v

[Scyla]

Whatever the Elysion is I hope it transformers into a more coherent form than the Quarter does. Maybe from two solid blocks out of arms and legs and not have the H-shape. I just noticed I'm describing Battle 7.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Well, classic Lambos were more known for setting themselves on fire. The 911 comparison comes from the fact that the classic cars were known as widowmakers due to a design quirk unique to them (rear engine).

Makes sense, since the track/race modes of most sports care specifically turn off the electronic nannies (or make you think they do).

I suppose you're right, though I was referring more to the big mid engine supercars, like the countach, diablo, murcialago, aventador, and the smaller gallardo. Pretty much all the ones from the past 20-30 years or so (the ones that I'm old enough to remember). Though I can't say for sure if any of the later model countach or the diablo had a reputation for bursting into flames.

Anyway, enough car talk.

Whatever the Elysion is I hope it transformers into a more coherent form than the Quarter does. Maybe from two solid blocks out of arms and legs and not have the H-shape. I just noticed I'm describing Battle 7.

Agreed, I do hope we get to see it in action.