Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[Ghostbear0]

You don't need to reach orbital speed to leave the atmosphere. Orbital speed is fast enough to stay orbiting around the planet. If your going to keep going all you need is to accelerate faster than gravity. The real issue of folding in then making planetfall would be the fact that planets are moving hella fast and your somehow have to equalize to their orbital velocities.

[Master Dex]

Folding in atmospheres is a really bad idea. Besides we've seen at least once that folding close to a gravity well can have unpredictable side effects (though part of that was inept handling by a crew that barely understood the technology at the time).

Still ghost is on the right track, folding may or may not transfer for previous momentum but it likely does not automatically put you at the right speed you need on exit so you need to use conventional engines to match orbits. Like he said, planets are also moving, and air around them moves too.. if you fold out while orbiting a planet, at orbital velocity, and fold into an atmosphere where things typically don't move that fast you are gonna have a bad time. The rapid wall of air slamming into you will superheat rapidly and you will cause shock waves that could decimate locals areas.

Actually, there is an example of this in Macross 7. In the movie, Basara folds in to a planet close to ground and his valkyrie is immediately sent into a tumble as it crashes into the ground and forcibly ejects him from the cockpit (cause Basara is too cool to wear safety gear). He only survives due to the cushioning of snow. To wit the locals who find him right after even yell at him for being stupid enough to fold in so close to the ground. This says it is known that it is a dangerous thing to do even on a small farming world.

As I focused on spacecraft design more than anything in my schooling orbital mechanics is something of an enjoyment for me to think about too. Ghost is again right, you don't need orbital speeds to leave the atmosphere. Fly straight up for 100 km on Earth and you are 'officially' in space. Keep it up to about 500 km and you are past the point of any notable atmospheric effects. Problem is you are not in orbit and you will eventually fall back down unless you are constantly thrusting against gravity.

Still this topic started on re-entry I believe? We know that valkyrie hypercarbon frames (and likely the older space metal frames of first and second generation VFs) are really resilient and can probably handle the heat stresses just fine. After all, we see it a lot. Perhaps for an added kick of protection since the engines don't need to be thrusting during an aerobreaking maneuver they could instead go full power to ECA even in fighter mode just until you reach the thermometric and barometric equilibrium in an atmosphere (read: you slow down enough within the air pressure to stop super heating). Also the 4th and 5th gen VFs also have pin point barriers but I suspect that isn't really necessary. We know older generations were able to make planet fall long before that was common technology on VFs.

[Aries Turner]

If your going to keep going all you need is to accelerate faster than gravity.

That is the thing. Easiest way is achieving faster than orbital speed. Or again you are burning a LOT of propellant.

Also, no. The thing was not about atmospheric reentry. It was about atmospheric reentry with four big sound boosters under the wings.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Master Dex]

The fold speakers? They're probably just made to handle it like the rest of the valkyrie. I mean.. a normal aircraft profile isn't exactly efficient for re-entry, the wings especially would tear off in a normal situation at those speeds.. so I attribute almost all of it to the durability and thermal resistance of the hypercarbon.

[Aries Turner]

I keep forgetting all the toys, even apparently simple ones, are way more expensive than those look.

"Sound boosters. New. Rated to 2,000ºK. Now on offer: take four, pay three."

That also means you can loose one on a pool of lava and still search for it with the hand of your mecha, take it out, remove most of the rock pudding before it solidifies and maybe it would still be in working condition. OTM just gained a whole new level on awesomeness.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

...and still those are shown taking a lot of punishment.

Really? I've been reluctant to rewatch Delta again (because it's awful), but as I recall it the shields are usually destroyed in one hit the minute the barrier goes down... often taking the arm with it. Hayate loses a couple arms that way.

The VF-25's shield wasn't often used, but on the few occasions we saw it take powerful hits it was usually still there after (even if the hit was so bad it took the arm out of action).

No, we are talking about the one that has the VF-25 engine (ah... the 'C' variant), that is the VF-31A that has *two* pylons.

We're still not certain that pylon count is accurate... I, for one, won't be entirely convinced until we get an official writeup in the liner notes or in something like an official art book.

However, the VF-4 had as much and turned to have eight, with a bigger payload than VF-1 impressive one. 6 UMM-7s, two more than VF-1.

The VF-4 had a unique advantage with twelve conformal missile mounts as well, though, unlike the VF-1, VF-11, VF-171, and so on, it couldn't retain all its ordinance while transforming.

So... not so sure about passive stealthiness assumptions, given the bulkiness of all external payloads shown used by the VF-31. It seems more about atmospheric reentry payload capability. That in turn reminds me about Michael showing above Gallia-4 with those huge sound boosters, and I am not sure how he managed the feat.

Xaos's use of the VF-31 Custom in Delta Flight is kind of a lousy example, in light of the fact that stealth is generally the opposite of what they're trying to achieve.

Internalized ordinance spaces in Macross normally means an effort to go in for more of a passive stealth focus (e.g. the VF-17, VF-19, VF-22) rather than trusting everything to the active stealth system.

Still this topic started on re-entry I believe? We know that valkyrie hypercarbon frames (and likely the older space metal frames of first and second generation VFs) are really resilient and can probably handle the heat stresses just fine.

Just a note, "space metal" and "hypercarbon" are two terms for the same stuff... like Luna Titanium and Gundarium. (In fact, EXACTLY like Luna Titanium and Gundarium, becuase "Spacemetal" was a riff on "Luna Titanium" to begin with... far from the only Gundam reference you'll find in the older Macross technical books. AMBAC, anyone? Or a VF-4 with funnels?)

I keep forgetting all the toys, even apparently simple ones, are way more expensive than those look.

"Sound boosters. New. Rated to 2,000ºK. Now on offer: take four, pay three."

That also means you can loose one on a pool of lava and still search for it with the hand of your mecha, take it out, remove most of the rock pudding before it solidifies and maybe it would still be in working condition. OTM just gained a whole new level on awesomeness.

Hayate lost a VF-31 by being within a couple dozen meters of the expanding blast front of what was certainly a multi-megaton thermonuclear reaction warhead detonation... that his fighter endured being close to something that was essentially a miniature star for something like ten seconds is a fairly impressive endorsement of its heat resistence as well.

[trojan_gambit]

During atmospheric reentry, the pilot might use Gerwalk mode to reduce speed to the point where the heat is tolerable by any lugged ordnance. This is Valk we are talking about

[Seto Kaiba]

During atmospheric reentry, the pilot might use Gerwalk mode to reduce speed to the point where the heat is tolerable by any lugged ordnance. This is Valk we are talking about

That's one way to do it, I guess...

In Macross 7, they had a very interesting approach to an armed reentry in which they used a one-fighter reentry pod launched from a frigate like a missile. The pod enabled a VF to make a ballistic high-speed reentry and then separate from the pod to maneuver normally.

(Some munitions don't seem to mind reentry heat though... Isamu made reentry with packs full of micro-missiles and an underslung gunpod, and the ventral surface is what's normally presented to the planet during reentry.)

EDIT: As a thought, any of you mechanically-inclined fellows joining us at MWCon a few days hence? I'd love to put faces to the thoughtful screen names here.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Master Dex]

EDIT: As a thought, any of you mechanically-inclined fellows joining us at MWCon a few days hence? I'd love to put faces to the thoughtful screen names here.

I wish I could, but I heard about it too recently to have planned any leave for that.

Not that I could have anyway, your friendly neighborhood engineering graduate turned AF jet engine mechanic here has actually been posting from his 'luxury' military deployment in Afghanistan for the past couple months. I won't be stateside again until sometime in November.

But I would totally love to meet some of the people here someday at a future con though (I already got plans for being at the Creation Star Trek convention in Vegas next August though if any of you are also Trekkies, heh).

[JB0]

Folding in atmospheres is a really bad idea. Besides we've seen at least once that folding close to a gravity well can have unpredictable side effects (though part of that was inept handling by a crew that barely understood the technology at the time).

Aww, it wasn't the crew's fault. They state in-show the SDF fold accident (and the malfunctioning gravity controllers) was due to side effects of the boobytrap, not proximity to the surface or user error.

[Master Dex]

Aww, it wasn't the crew's fault. They state in-show the SDF fold accident (and the malfunctioning gravity controllers) was due to side effects of the boobytrap, not proximity to the surface or user error.

I've seen it rationalized as a mix of all those things. The boobytrap did damage various systems to the point where that accident was a result, but I've also read that part of it was folding close to a gravity well which is considered dangerous. More than likely when I heard that the crew's inexperience with the fold system was partly to blame, what was really being said was that because they don't know a lot about the technology yet that means they didn't know to anticipate that the boobytrap may have damaged the system and made it very bad to fold so close to ground.

Perhaps normally it might not be as dangerous if the system was undamaged (though I'd still avoid it, the spatial distortion would rip up anything nearby, which is basically what happened. The ship taking South Ataria with it may not be part of the accident ultimately and just a mistake they made being so low).

[JB0]

Yeah, low-altitude folds are generally not a good idea. The zentradi were shocked by Global's move in SDF, and the crew of Macross 7 considered a surface fold a bad idea even when they ran out of other options.

But the catastrophic effects seen in SDF were attributed to the boobytrap as opposed to the unusually low fold altitude or direct operator error.

It seems probable that safeties which would have presented such a mishap were disabled in the process of setting up the boobytrap mechanism. And with it being the only fold mechanism humanity had ever seen, they wouldn't know what proper safety mechanisms looked like

Particularly as the Supervision Army vessel found during the factory satellite capture operation wasn't there when they sent an investigation team back later. That implies to me that the boobytrap programming is designed to move or eliminate discovered traps. Moving it out of the area would require the fold system to be interfaced with the boobytrap code, and destroying it would be quite easily facilitated by disabling safeties.

[Seto Kaiba]

I wish I could, but I heard about it too recently to have planned any leave for that.

Not that I could have anyway, your friendly neighborhood engineering graduate turned AF jet engine mechanic here has actually been posting from his 'luxury' military deployment in Afghanistan for the past couple months. I won't be stateside again until sometime in November.

But I would totally love to meet some of the people here someday at a future con though (I already got plans for being at the Creation Star Trek convention in Vegas next August though if any of you are also Trekkies, heh).

Ah, more's the pity... I'm not much of a Trekkie anymore. Voyager didn't thrill me, Enterprise just annoyed me, and the new movies had me contemplating a voodoo doll for Jar-Jar Abrams.

Aww, it wasn't the crew's fault. They state in-show the SDF fold accident (and the malfunctioning gravity controllers) was due to side effects of the boobytrap, not proximity to the surface or user error.

Officially, yeah... the Macross's fold accident was the result of the boobytrap scrambling several of the ship's original systems like the fold system and gravity control system. That said, it is mentioned one or two of the official publications that trying to fold inside a gravity well is a rather bad idea and probably didn't help matters. Macross Chronicle suggests that folding inside a gravity well can increase the chances of a fold accident and even increase the time disparity between the ship and realspace during the fold jump. Consequently, the (New) UN Forces consider folding inside a planetary atmosphere a terrible idea and rarely attempt it.

On an unrelated matter, I've been having fun with thrust-to-weight ratios lately. Some overdue realizations and new information let me get some insight into a few Master File variants that didn't get stats... like the VF-0-NF and VF-0+. If I've worked out the masses correctly, the VF-0-NF actually managed a better thrust-to-weight ratio than the VF-1 by using the Ghost's larger, more powerful, but less efficient engine. If the FF-1999 weren't so blasted heavy it could've been one hell of a fighter... but 8,400kg of engine weight is a bit of a game killer.

[Aries Turner]

It was lucky in more than a way that mishap happened. Not being able to fold again buyed them time to later be able to learn from the usual end users of all those toys.

[Aries Turner]

From another thread, where it happened not to be so short a question, maybe neither too newbie.

As reading Sketchley's translations, I noticed that the wings root 'coal crystals' of the VF-31A are fold carbon instead of fold quartz. As those fold quartz are associated with engine performance in the Siegfrieds, I wonder what it means for the Kairos to have those instead. It probably has nothing to do with integral fold boosters, as we never saw VF-31s of any kind folding on its own, even when it would have meant an obvious advantage. Fold quartz in other craft seem associated to a 30% overboost. Could these fold carbon crystals (*) be associated with that 15% overboost figure?

(*) As far as I have reed, fold carbons are crystalline in nature, existing in both real and fold space and *not* ever considered as 'fold diamonds'.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

As reading Sketchley's translations, I noticed that the wings root 'coal crystals' of the VF-31A are fold carbon instead of fold quartz.

Just a point of order, it doesn't actually say the VF-31A/B has a fold carbon crystal in the space where the Xaos custom models have fold quartz. It simply lists fold carbon as "special equipment", which as I noted back in the Newbie thread makes precisely zero sense as fold carbon is an essential component of most any system that uses higher dimension physics... like fold reactors that are the core of the engines, or the beam gunpod.

You couldn't build a variable fighter without the stuff.

Fold quartz in other craft seem associated to a 30% overboost. Could these fold carbon crystals (*) be associated with that 15% overboost figure?(*)

Slight correction... there isn't an overboost feature mentioned in the stats for the VF-31A/B Kairos mass production type.

The overboost percentages are entirely attributed to fighters that have fold quartz enhancements. Xaos's customized VF-31s get a 15% improvement in their engine output when their fold wave systems are active. Windermere's Sv-252Hs gets a 30% improvement from its reheat system, which is a kind of poor man's fold wave system focused on engine performance improvement.

[Master Dex]

From another thread, where it happened not to be so short a question, maybe neither too newbie.

As reading Sketchley's translations, I noticed that the wings root 'coal crystals' of the VF-31A are fold carbon instead of fold quartz. As those fold quartz are associated with engine performance in the Siegfrieds, I wonder what it means for the Kairos to have those instead. It probably has nothing to do with integral fold boosters, as we never saw VF-31s of any kind folding on its own, even when it would have meant an obvious advantage. Fold quartz in other craft seem associated to a 30% overboost. Could these fold carbon crystals (*) be associated with that 15% overboost figure?

(*) As far as I have reed, fold carbons are crystalline in nature, existing in both real and fold space and *not* ever considered as 'fold diamonds'.

Like Seto pointed out in the questions thread, fold carbon really isn't anything special, as it has been a thing in Macross since the original series, even if it was never actually labeled back then. Fold carbon is simply the macguffin of the Macross universe that allows technology to interact with super dimension space to do all the amazing things they do.

(For comparison, Star Trek has dilithium, and Mass Effect has Element Zero. They all do different things, but they are all some type of material that has special properties that allows special quasi-physics bending stuff to occur, and all relate to their respective series FTL technologies).

All fold carbon does is enable manipulation of heavy quantum in SD space so you can do stuff like warping space time (used for folding as well as barriers), shunting heavy quantum into real space so it can be used for beam weapons. Most importantly though, it is used to enhance the process of nuclear fusion so that it is easier to do, and give access to massive amounts of energy. This is why Valkyrie engines, as well as spacecraft engines, work so well in the Macross universe. Fold carbon has been a part of all valkyrie engines, all the way back to the VF-1 (not the VF-0 though, as it used conventional jet engines). So unless the fold carbon in the wing roots is an extra amount intended for something specific, it is nothing particularly special.

As for it being crystalline, it would be, simply because carbon typically forms crystalline structures in nature (diamond just being a particularly dense one). Though not every carbon structure is crystalline. That being said, I doubt that fold carbon has any actual carbon and is just called that because it is ubiquitous and simple like carbon is. Similarly fold quartz likely isn't made of any actual quartz (which itself is pretty common and just made of silicon and oxygen). The terms are just a way of indicating their relative similarities I'd bet.

[Aries Turner]

Just a point of order, it doesn't actually say the VF-31A/B has a fold carbon crystal in the space where the Xaos custom models have fold quartz.

True. It only appears to coincide conveniently, in place, color and function.

It simply lists fold carbon as "special equipment", which as I noted back in the Newbie thread makes precisely zero sense as fold carbon is an essential component of most any system that uses higher dimension physics...

True... but wrong. It clearly made sense to classify it as special equipment for whomever wrote that. It clearly makes no sense in the way you are interpreting it to mean. As the person who wrote that should be aware of the same fact, whatever she/he intended was meant to be something else, or would have not bothered to classify it as 'special'.

Mind you, however ubiquitous it is, this may be the first time it is seen externally mounted and in a large chunk. In a fighter, at the very least. There must be a reason for that. Granted: if, and only if, it is talking about those grey whateverthoseare in the chest plate.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

True. It only appear to coincide conveniently, in place and color.

In the closeup of the VF-31A sitting on the Aether's deck when Hayate joins Xaos, there doesn't appear to actually be anything there... just an empty space. You can see the panel line through the space where the crystal and its mount should be.

True... but wrong. It clearly made sense to classify it as special equipment for whomever wrote that. It clearly makes no sense in the way you are interpreting it to mean.

The question then becomes "did the person who wrote the article understand that fold carbon isn't anything special?".

Mind you, however ubiquitous it is, this may be the first time it is seen externally mounted and in a large chunk. In a fighter, at the very least. There must be a reason for that

IF there's actually a chunk of it mounted there... and there doesn't appear to be, based on the animation and the available model kits.

There's no acknowledgement of any kind of fold carbon crystal or system using same in the official specs for the production model Kairos.

[Aries Turner]

The question then becomes "did the person who wrote the article understand that fold carbon isn't anything special?".

Agreed. But didn't put 'fold emerald', nor 'fold magnet'. Maybe just heard 'fold carbon' somewhere and simply liked the sound of it. Maybe it was written on purpose. So much maybes to discuss further if we would only know for certain in the uncertain future.

[RedWolf]

Just some snips on Fold Crystals from Sketchley's translaton of the Macross Chronicle World Guide on Vajra and Macross Chronicle Technology Guide on Space Folds.

http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.org/MCRworldguide/24bVajra.php

Vajra And Fold Crystals

In addition to Zero Time Fold Communication, the Vajra's possession of Fold Quartz is evident from the Carrier Vajra, centred on the Bishop and Knight Classes, performing space folds that disregard Fold Faults. However, Fold Quartz isn't used for all of the Vajra's characteristic abilities, which are said to be bio-firearms, Space Folds, and propulsion by gravity control.

The Vajra synthesize Fold Crystals with the help of intestinal bacterium (the Vajra Bacterium). However, the material that the typical Vajra synthesize, what is called Fold Carbon or Fold Coal, doesn't oscillate with Zero Time Fold Waves. That material is the same as the central parts of a typical Space Fold Device, and is able to attain enough output for such things as the use of beam armaments and Energy Conversion Armour, or common Space Fold Navigation.

Types Of Vajra

Even though the Vajra are a group that shares one purpose, each individual has a role, and such things as their abilities and shape differ according to the individual. The types are roughly divided into three known types: the Queen type that's the group's core, the carrier types that exists as mother ships, and the combat types that shoulder the burdens of Fold Ore collection and combat.

http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.org/MCRtechnology/08aOvertechnology-SpaceFold.php

In this way, even though Space Folds are performed with the Over-Technology equipment that is generally called a "Space Fold Engine", in order to do the actual work, a special substance is needed, which is referred to as Fold Carbon or Fold Coal.

To produce Fold Crystals like Fold Carbon or Fold Quartz Vajra will have to mine Fold Ore from asteroids around dead stars as we saw in Macross Frontier TV.

Interestingly in Macross Plus Planet Banepal has coal mines. Fold Ore or Fold Coal is likely mined and processed into higher purity Fold Carbon for Overtechnology.

I agree with Seto that the likely reason why Galactic Whales are hunted by poachers and sold to the black market is that they have higher quality Fold Carbon in their bodies.

Edited October 17, 2016 by RedWolf

[Seto Kaiba]

Agreed. But didn't put 'fold emerald', nor 'fold magnet'. Maybe just heard 'fold carbon' somewhere and simply liked the sound of it. Maybe it was written on purpose. So much maybes to discuss further if we would only know for certain in the uncertain future.

My suspicion is that they simply didn't know the significance (or, rather, lack thereof) when they were given the notes to write the article on... it'd make sense if they were simply told the difference was that one was special because it used fold quartz and the other's design is using fold carbon. To someone not in the know, that would sound like fold carbon were special rather than the basis for a good chunk of the overtechnology in every VF for the last 60 years.

[Aries Turner]

Maybe.

[RedWolf]

More likely in conjunction with Walkure equipment that uses Fold Carbon is has something to with Fold Amps.

[This Confuses Gamlin]

Tossing out a hastily-arranged thought here: For dramatic reasons since Frontier, the mid-sized capital ship has become the cannon fodder of the Macross universe. (I could also replace "Macross" with "Gundam"...) Variable Fighters are small enough to be difficult to hit, can easily carry ship-killing ordnance, and can use a reasonable amount of Fold Carbon/Quartz/etc. for a large boost in performance (particularly in recent series). At the large size there are hero ships like the original SDF-1, the Battle-classes, and other largish things that mount a Heavy Converging Energy Beam Cannon. Meanwhile Northamptons, Guantanamos, and Uragas and the like get blown up by pretty much everything.

Does it have to be this way? SDFM demonstrated numerous classes of capital ships that had large beam cannons on them, and presumably could be refit with niceties like pinpoint barriers. Large capital ships are appropriately rare, but the midsize ships would be the primary ones dealing with the still-extant threat of undiscovered Zentradi fleets out there.

Or would it just be easier now to build a lot more top-generation VFs that can easily slip through a fleet defense and deliver reaction weaponry up close, instead of relying on a lot of squishy midsized ships?

Has the franchise written itself into a familiar technological corner where the one-man hero mecha is now the ultimate power in the universe?

Edited October 17, 2016 by This Confuses Gamlin

[Aries Turner]

More likely in conjunction with Walkure equipment that uses Fold Carbon is has something to with Fold Amps.

Although VF-31A Kairos were shown as used in the beginnings of Walkure, it is no longer associated with them.

[Seto Kaiba]

More likely in conjunction with Walkure equipment that uses Fold Carbon is has something to with Fold Amps.

Oh, very likely... though I'd have expected Walkure's equipment to be based on fold quartz instead, since that's a more effective resonator and apparently is better suited to controlling and amplifying fold song. Dr. Chiba's song energy amplification system from the 2040s was built around the core of a fold system and therefore was probably packed to the gills with fold carbon.

Tossing out a hastily-arranged thought here: For dramatic reasons since Frontier, the mid-sized capital ship has become the cannon fodder of the Macross universe. (I could also replace "Macross" with "Gundam"...) Variable Fighters are small enough to be difficult to hit, can easily carry ship-killing ordnance, and can use a reasonable amount of Fold Carbon/Quartz/etc. for a large boost in performance (particularly in recent series).

Personally, I'm not so sure that's actually the case... or at least, that it's not the case when there aren't Villain Sues and copious shenanigans.

In Frontier, the New UN Spacy flotilla protecting Island-1 scored quite a few kills on the highly mobile Vajra with their AA guns despite the Vajra in question being far more agile than the typical variable fighter of the day. At the end of the day, only a handful of Vajra actually made it through the anti-aircraft fire to the emigrant ship, and a large share of the blame there rests with a lack of preparedness on the part of the fleet's top brass for venturing into Vajra territory and not bothering to equip their fighters with ammunition powerful enough to hurt the Vajra. We only see ships taking a pasting when the fighter screen has taken a powder.

Delta is an exception, but that's pretty much entirely down to the fold songs of King Ketchup giving the Aerial Knights an unfair leg-up and making it all but impossible for the fighter screen protecting the warships to do its job.

[Aries Turner]

Does it have to be this way?

No, it isn't. Whatever a VF mounts, a warship can mount in a bigger and badder version. The problem is technology seemingly advancing too fast to catch up and build new warships and retire old ones fast enough. Or is it? Macross-Quarter, Half-A-Macross...

I miss a One-Eigth-A-Macross in there, or even a Golg-Gant-Charts or Quell-Quallie micron equivalent. A VF the size of a VB-6 but capable of folding, with two or more beam turrets with the punch of beam grenades and 4-5th generation acceleration. A frigate with a buster cannon and Quarter-class mobility. A light carrier with even bigger and badder ISC to protect its crew against insane defensive maneuvers, or assault shuttlepod to launch from big carriers and deploy a dozen VFs or thrice the QFs. Something that is more survivable than the target rich environment of legacy frigates, destroyers and carriers with G acceleration in the single digit class.

Something that will make a full battlegroup able to do 30G maneuvers, like this one.

Because if you have shorter range weapons but greater acceleration, you can hope to evade enough to close to weapon range and nuke them. If you don't have acceleration but have longer range weapons, you can pray to reduce your enemy to atoms before it is close enough. But if you have shorter range weapons and lesser acceleration, you are royally screwed, as you would be hit from long range and will never be able to close distances.

I'd have expected Walkure's equipment to be based on fold quartz instead, since that's a more effective resonator and apparently is better suited to controlling and amplifying fold song. Dr. Chiba's song energy amplification system from the 2040s was built around the core of a fold system and therefore was probably packed to the gills with fold carbon.

Some of Walkure equipment uses fold quartz: the Siegfrieds.

I have not played Macross 30, but I was under the impression that while Basara didn't use fold quartz, maybe not even fold carbon, the point was moot, because YF-30 Chronos did. Chronos amplified Basara's song. What is valid for Basara, is valid for Walkure. Maybe theirs is legacy equipment, used when escorted by Kairos only, in the beginning. Maybe not.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Aries Turner

[This Confuses Gamlin]

No, it isn't. Whatever a VF mounts, a warship can mount in a bigger and badder version. The problem is technology seemingly advancing too fast to catch up and build new warships and retire old ones fast enough. Or is it? Macross-Quarter, Half-A-Macross...

I miss a One-Eigth-A-Macross in there, or even a Golg-Gant-Charts or Quell-Quallie micron equivalent. A VF the size of a VB-6 but capable of folding, with two or more beam turrets with the punch of beam grenades and 4-5th generation acceleration. A frigate with a buster cannon and Quarter-class mobility. A light carrier with even bigger and badder ISC to protect its crew against insane defensive maneuvers, or assault shuttlepod to launch from big carriers and deploy a dozen VFs or thrice the QFs. Something that is more survivable than the target rich environment of legacy frigates, destroyers and carriers with G acceleration in the single digit class.

Something new in the Quel-Qualie size should work well, as it scales up reasonably from fighter-sized while not being as cumbersome or large as a normal warship.

The Quarter is a nice balance, though at the size it is, it would have been nice to make it a single ship. On the other hand, Macross will probably never go the full combining-mecha-team route and have a transforming ship that's composed of five otherwise-totally-independent vessels... even if that actually would give the core block of some of these transforming ships something to do other than being "the torso." (Which was one of the nice things about the Elysion, at least we regularly saw the Aether going out on missions that didn't call for the entire ship.) That said...

Personally, I'm not so sure that's actually the case... or at least, that it's not the case when there aren't Villain Sues and copious shenanigans.

In Frontier, the New UN Spacy flotilla protecting Island-1 scored quite a few kills on the highly mobile Vajra with their AA guns despite the Vajra in question being far more agile than the typical variable fighter of the day. At the end of the day, only a handful of Vajra actually made it through the anti-aircraft fire to the emigrant ship, and a large share of the blame there rests with a lack of preparedness on the part of the fleet's top brass for venturing into Vajra territory and not bothering to equip their fighters with ammunition powerful enough to hurt the Vajra. We only see ships taking a pasting when the fighter screen has taken a powder.

Delta is an exception, but that's pretty much entirely down to the fold songs of King Ketchup giving the Aerial Knights an unfair leg-up and making it all but impossible for the fighter screen protecting the warships to do its job.

The capital ship screen wasn't totally useless, but that one Stealth cruiser blowing up was one of Frontier's more popular bits of recycled footage, which goes back to "if the plot demands that the enemy show some effectiveness, destroy the midsized capital ships." I know that point is straying away from the technological side of things and reliant on the demands of the story, but it still happens, and it's unlikely that the franchise will ever choose to feature a story about some guys in a regular cruiser when the fighters and the giant transforming ships are more famous.

Edited October 18, 2016 by This Confuses Gamlin

[Seto Kaiba]

The capital ship screen wasn't totally useless, but that one Stealth cruiser blowing up was one of Frontier's more popular bits of recycled footage, which goes back to "if the plot demands that the enemy show some effectiveness, destroy the midsized capital ships."

In pretty much any fleet battle that isn't hopelessly one-sided, you're gonna see the escort ships taking damage or getting sunk. That's far from being the kind of curbstomp battle you're implying, where the capital ships are utterly helpless against enemy fighters. It's usually the Nightmare Pluses getting creamed that's the measure of "look out boys, here comes a serious contender", and even THAT'S not exactly balanced coverage considering that we've never not seen the Nightmare Plus go up against an enemy that doesn't have a monstrous performance advantage.

[RedWolf]

Oh, very likely... though I'd have expected Walkure's equipment to be based on fold quartz instead, since that's a more effective resonator and apparently is better suited to controlling and amplifying fold song. Dr. Chiba's song energy amplification system from the 2040s was built around the core of a fold system and therefore was probably packed to the gills with fold carbon.

Between heavy NUN regulation of Fold Quartz and the Brisingr Alliance lacking the innovations LAI made like super fold drives or zero time lag communications I venture to guess the technology hasn't proliferated due to how expensive or rare Fold Quartz is.

Hence Windermere insistent on removing the harvesting and trade restrictions on Fold Quartz in its negotiation with the NUNG. There is a potential market for it in the cluster as the region has Fold Faults. Ragna became a comm hub for the cluster because their space can easily receive Fold comm transmissions. This is why Xaos set up shop there as regional HQ.

Considering the circumstances it is a bit jarring Hayate gets to wear a Fold Quartz souvenir bought from Windermere by his father.

The VF-31 Siegfried as noted are customized Tactical Sound Unit support with the Fold Wave system which has high purity Fold Quartz most likely.

Edited October 18, 2016 by RedWolf

[VF-18S Hornet]

Something I noticed on the Sv-262s...If they folded in, where are the fold boosters?

Perhaps an internal micro fold system.

[Master Dex]

Perhaps an internal micro fold system.

That's quite the necro-quote there... plus it is a topic we've all thoroughly debunked in the past 10 months since Azrael made that comment, heh. They are going through zero time fold gates created by the Sigur Valens, thus no need for fold boosters.

To date, there has never been any fold engine small enough to fit inside a valkyrie sized craft.... besides.. with all the other space being used for what VFs normally have.. not even sure where you could put it... Even the ISC had some trouble before they could shrink it down to fit anywhere.

[Seto Kaiba]

Hence Windermere insistent on removing the harvesting and trade restrictions on Fold Quartz in its negotiation with the NUNG. There is a potential market for it in the cluster as the region has Fold Faults.

[...]

Considering the circumstances it is a bit jarring Hayate gets to wear a Fold Quartz souvenir bought from Windermere by his father.

To be fair, until the applications of fold quartz were discovered in the late 2040's or early 2050's, Windermere probably didn't realize fold quartz was anything other than tacky costume jewelry. Within two years of the first widespread applications of fold quartz, the stuff was made a restricted substance and Windermere's potential windfall became a lot of deadweight.

[Seto Kaiba]

From another thread, where it happened not to be so short a question, maybe neither too newbie.As reading Sketchley's translations, I noticed that the wings root 'coal crystals' of the VF-31A are fold carbon instead of fold quartz.

As expected, the official Blu-Ray liner notes offered some clarity on this subject.

The liner notes for BD Vol.3 have a somewhat reduced version of that chart from the Summer '16 issue of Great Mechanics G comparing the VF-31A/B Kairos to the VF-31 Custom Siegfried. In the special equipment line item, the VF-31 Custom Siegfried has "fold quartz", but the VF-31A/B's entry is a blank (just a hyphen).

(The VF-31A stats block on page 22 unfortunately does not do anything to clear up the wing pylon issue. I am, however, slightly befuddled by Messer's fashion sense... all of the Xaos staff kind of dress like bums or out-of-work gigolos, but I cannot fathom why Messer's day-to-day attire includes a pair of side-buckle shoes and what are very clearly kneepads.)

BD Vol.4's liner notes are exceedingly light on technical material, but there is one point of interest therein. The Aerial Knights don't use EX-Gear, and their ejector seat doesn't seem like it's got maneuvering thrusters built into it. Apparently their pilot suit has a pair of extendable winglets with verniers built in... it's the gold trim bits shaped like <> on the backpack.

(On another unrelated note, we're going to have to correct the spellings of a few names... apparently Hermann's surname is spelled "Kroos" and Qasim's name is really spelled "Kassim Eber-hardt". I have to wonder if Berger Stone is fully human too... his concept art in the booklet has what looks like pointed ears under his headscarf.)

Edited October 26, 2016 by Seto Kaiba