Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[Aries Turner]

I don't have photos or animation, but I recall those to do exactly that.

[Seto Kaiba]

I actually came here to ask a question: given the Tornado Pack and the advent the Sv-262's drones, do you guys think the trend toward multiple engines that can be rotated around is going to stick? Also, can the YF-29 do that? I can't remember but I don't think it can.

I don't recall it actually rotating the engines a full 180 degrees, but since the Tornado Pack on the VF-25 was the proof of concept for the YF-29's engine arrangement, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to.

I doubt it's going to catch on in a mainstream fighter though... seems like kind of a pain in the butt to implement. It seems like the kind of thing we'll see on ultra-agile low-volume production dogfighters...

[Master Dex]

Yes they can. I own the DX YF-29B which is essentially the same mold so the others except for head sculpt, color, and gunpod differences. The outboard engines can do full 360 degree rotations.

[Vernon]

What is the advantage of the 4 engine configuration on some of the valkyrie aside of more thrust?

[Ghostbear0]

More nozzles equals more maneuverability especially in space.

[calubin_175]

So spec wise, the Sv-262 is about 10% stronger than the VF-31, and probably more mass productive too.

Does the Sv-262Hs top the YF-29 concept machine in any way?

Is the anti VF Sv-262 the strongest variable fighter to date, even in terms of combat against non VFs?

And what is the consensus on the Sv-262's ability to fold?

Edited September 30, 2016 by calubin_175

[Sildani]

What is the advantage of the 4 engine configuration on some of the valkyrie aside of more thrust?

More power generation for SWAG armor, pinpoint barriers, and all the quantum beam guns, too.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Sildani

[trojan_gambit]

VF-1 was king in the category, with as much as four pylons per wing in later blocks (but only in the Master Files), up to 6 RMS in some of Tenjin Hidetaka illustrations.

Don't forget rudder hardpoints on Kakizaki's -1A

So spec wise, the Sv-262 is about 10% stronger than the VF-31, and probably more mass productive too.

Does the Sv-262Hs top the YF-29 concept machine in any way?

Is the anti VF Sv-262 the strongest variable fighter to date, even in terms of combat against non VFs?

And what is the consensus on the Sv-262's ability to fold?

VF-31 already has mass production too, -31A.

If price can be used as an indication, I think YF-29 is still the better machine.

[Aries Turner]

Don't forget rudder hardpoints on Kakizaki's -1A

Kakizaki.jpg

WTFancy!

[Master Dex]

So spec wise, the Sv-262 is about 10% stronger than the VF-31, and probably more mass productive too.

Does the Sv-262Hs top the YF-29 concept machine in any way?

Is the anti VF Sv-262 the strongest variable fighter to date, even in terms of combat against non VFs?

And what is the consensus on the Sv-262's ability to fold?

In order, from what I know:

I highly doubt it tops the YF-29 since the latter has more engines and was purposefully over designed. Plus it has a fold wave system which is better than the 262s reheat system I'd bet. The 262 is better in that it doesn't break the bank to produce en masse.

I doubt it is the strongest, even if it matched the 29, I bet it doesn't match a federal YF/VF-24 which has undisclosed stats believed to be way higher than other 5th gen VFs.

It can fold by using a fold booster, riding with a ship or traveling through a fold gate produced by Sigur Valens as seen in the show. It does not have any form of fold drive of its own.

[Aries Turner]

It is not the number of engines, but the total power output what counts. Both VF-27 and YF-29 have greater total power output that all known *current* designs with two engines. However, a single YF-30 engine have greater output that all four FBz-99G main engines combined.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Master Dex]

It is not the number of engines, but the total power output what counts. Both VF-27 and YF-29 have greater total power output that all known *current* designs with two engines. However, a single YF-30 engine have greater output that all four FBz-99G main engines combined.

Well yeah, but I was going for a simpler answer. I felt it went without saying that YF-29 having 4 engines meant its overall output beat the Sv-262. I didn't mention the YF-30 simply because it was not mentioned in the original question, but true enough that it too is of equal footing with the YF-29 (despite only having two engines) and likely better than the Sv-262.

Of course, and this should have been stated before too, engine performance isn't all that matters, just an important part. Armament, maneuverability, defensive systems, etc are all important as well. YF-29 still takes a lot of advantage here over the Sv-262 I think (especially in armament, lol). Sv-262 is no slouch though.

[Seto Kaiba]

What is the advantage of the 4 engine configuration on some of the valkyrie aside of more thrust?

• Having four engines provides a greater maximum instantaneous thrust and thrust-to-weight ratio, which generally translates to a faster top speed in atmosphere and better climb rate. (Unless the engines themselves rotate, the actual gain in maneuverability isn't that huge... that's more a function of verniers.)
• Having twice the usual number of engines means the fighter has twice the usual number of reactors. The practical upshot of this is that the fighter's thermoelectric and MHD generators are producing more energy above and beyond what's actually necessary for flight than what a two-engine configuration is going to produce. This enables the usage of certain energy-intensive systems that would not normally be available in fighter mode without a fold wave or fold dimensional resonance system, like running the energy conversion armor at full power or using the pin-point barriers.
• The loss of an engine isn't a crippling problem for a four-engine VF, as the total loss of power is more like 1/4 instead of 1/2.

Of course, having four engines also comes with the downside that you're using fuel twice as fast... which reduces the fighter's operational endurance, esp. during space combat where the reactors are consuming fuel exponentially more rapidly than usual to produce the plasma the engine expels to provide thrust.

So spec wise, the Sv-262 is about 10% stronger than the VF-31, and probably more mass productive too.

Does the Sv-262Hs top the YF-29 concept machine in any way?

Nope... the Sv-262 is noticeably better than a standard production-level 5th Generation Main VF like the VF-25 or VF-31, but it still falls short of what the VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30 are capable of.

(In practical terms, Windermere is shelling out for a much more expensive VF with the expectation that quality will cover numbers.)

Is the anti VF Sv-262 the strongest variable fighter to date, even in terms of combat against non VFs?

Goodness no.

In terms of raw engine power and thrust-to-weight ratio the Sv-262 is behind the VF-27, YF-30, YF-29, and probably VF-24 (which we don't have stats for).

You could make an excellent case that the Sv-262 is every bit as flawed as the VF-27... it's over-specialized. Where the VF-27 focused on dogfighting ability to the exclusion of pretty much everything else, and became a fighter with low operational versatility, the Sv-262 shows an exaggerated emphasis on combat in atmosphere. As a result of its atmosphere-centric design, its fuel capacity is low and it has aggressively limited operational endurance in space compared to other 5th Generation VFs. To maintain its streamlined profile its weapons were integrated directly into the airframe, which greatly limits is versatility and effectively precludes equipping it with long-range weaponry.

It's a fighter very well-suited to the kind of war Windermere expected to be fighting, but it'd probably fare poorly in massed combat against the NUNS or Zentradi without the Wind Singer there to disorient or subvert the enemy. (Which is, of course, exactly what we saw near the end of the series... when Heinz took a powder, all the sudden the Drakens were being shot down by NUNS pilots flying previous-generation fighters.)

And what is the consensus on the Sv-262's ability to fold?

As expected, the Sv-262 has no fold system.

It can only fold by using a fold booster, riding along inside a starship's fold effect, or utilizing a point-to-point fold effect generated by a Protoculture relic. For much of the series, they appear to be using fold gates produced by the Sigur Valens to get around. (Those who've been on the thread from early on will remember I predicted precisely that about ten episodes before it was revealed, because there was similar technology in widespread use over on Uroboros.)

Edited September 30, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Zinjo]

More nozzles equals more maneuverability especially in space.

Yeah, along with the ability to carry more DEW (directed energy weaponry) and defensive equipment. They could run all 4 engines at reduced thrust giving them the same speed as a 2 engine model at full thrust and have the power available for DEW. 2 extra engines provide redundancy and the rotating engine nacelles provide greater agility in both space and atmosphere environments. Keith used his Lil Drakens to evade Messer when the Knights were bugging out at one point as an example.

Where the SV's have incorporated an innovation is turning their Lil Drakens into attached FAST packs that double as ghost UCAV's.

[Seto Kaiba]

Where the SV's have incorporated an innovation is turning their Lil Drakens into attached FAST packs that double as ghost UCAV's.

It was an innovation, all right... but not one made by the Dian Cecht SV Works.

The Macross Galaxy Guld Works beat them to the punch on that one by about eight years... the VF-27's Super Pack included a QF-5100D Goblin II UCAV mounted dorsally that could similarly detach from its mothership VF and operate independently (or be remotely controlled using the pilot's BDI).

[calubin_175]

Thanks, Seto. I did have a read of the Japanese wiki and concluded that the Draken was more atmospheric centric and had very specific roles for localised warfare.

[trojan_gambit]

It was an innovation, all right... but not one made by the Dian Cecht SV Works.

The Macross Galaxy Guld Works beat them to the punch on that one by about eight years... the VF-27's Super Pack included a QF-5100D Goblin II UCAV mounted dorsally that could similarly detach from its mothership VF and operate independently (or be remotely controlled using the pilot's BDI).

Doesn't the ghost drone on VF-0 also have similar function ? CMIIW.

[Seto Kaiba]

Doesn't the ghost drone on VF-0 also have similar function ? CMIIW.

Nope. As Macross Chronicle has it, the QF-2200D-B that was used for the Ghost Booster on the VF-0 cannot be operated independently. The reason given is that its avionics and some sensors were removed to make the Ghost lighter and connect it to the VF-0's controls.

For all practical intents and purposes, it's just an external engine and fuel tanks inside an aerodynamic casing.

[eko.prasetiyo]

what's the function of two booms on elysion? on ep 13 it was half destroyed and it never repaired. on final battle ep 26 it still the same half destroyed state. at first it was taught the main cannon like SDF 1 but it's not. it's connected to secondary booster ?

[Ghostbear0]

Crew quarters? Maybe that's why everyone had to bunk at the ragnanyannyan.

[Seto Kaiba]

what's the function of two booms on elysion? on ep 13 it was half destroyed and it never repaired. on final battle ep 26 it still the same half destroyed state. at first it was taught the main cannon like SDF 1 but it's not. it's connected to secondary booster ?

Those seem to be a larger version of the BASTER-L and BASTER-R Mobile Battery Warships which were part of the Macross Quarter-class... which would make them basically a small-ish destroyer or frigate docked to the core block of the ship. They're basically a small frigate or destroyer with a disproportionately large engine cluster and a couple large anti-warship converging beam cannon turrets.

(While both the Quarter-class and Elysion-type are explicitly modular warships made up of multiple warships stuck together, Elysion is the only one shown using that fact to its advantage.)

[eko.prasetiyo]

so when it's destroyed, seems easier ( and cheaper) to just replace it rather than repair it right?

if it a baster, and it's half destroyed did the engine cluster still working?

[Aries Turner]

It was an innovation, all right... but not one made by the Dian Cecht SV Works.

The real innovation of Lil'Drakens is not being an UAV/ Fast Pack combo, but an UAV/ Vernier/ Tornado combo. VF-27 drone can only aid in forward thrust when mated, while Lil'Drakens are shown for reverse thrust braking, differential thrust directional aim change and some other space-batics.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Product9]

I wonder if that would be "astrobatics"

A quick web search only turned up a game, though.

[Aries Turner]

I did have a read of the Japanese wiki and concluded that the Draken was more atmospheric centric and had very specific roles for localised warfare.

There is a caveat there, somewhere. Saying the Draken is atmospheric centric have not much more meaning than saying VF-25 is more atmospheric capable than the VF-25/SPS-25S combo. It may as well mean the Draken is more asmotpheric centric than the VF-25/SPS-25S because the real comparison should be pitting it against the VF-25/TW-1 Tornado Pack combo, also more atmospheric centric than VF-25/SPS-25S.

[Major edit]:

In fact, the YF-29 prototype was made using VF-25 parts, reinforced to withstand higher stresses and thus unleash the full potential of the new engines and was given 'conformable' Tornado Pack capabilities. So, in a sense, maybe be should consider the SV-262 also as a 'four' engines design when Lil'Drakens are installed, even if with less technologically advanced systems. I suspect, but have no proof, that SV-262 can transfer fuel to Lil'Drakens, and maybe Lil'Draken engines can provide excess power back to the SV-262. However, even if no transfer of any kind is involved, their mere presence allow to divert main engine power for the cannon while relying on Lil'Drakens for thrust.

[2nd major edit]:

No, fuel and power transfer seems too complex for the Drakens while fuel monitoring could do the trick. I think the latter case is true, as it still allows to divert all or almost all main engine power to beam cannon.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Aries Turner]

Of course, and this should have been stated before too, engine performance isn't all that matters, just an important part. Armament, maneuverability, defensive systems, etc are all important as well. YF-29 still takes a lot of advantage here over the Sv-262 I think (especially in armament, lol). Sv-262 is no slouch though.

Of course. Also, most of the talk here assume we are talking about combinations of the same engine, with same fuel consumption, and that is not the case of the YF-29. I even tended to think on the same lines about YF-29 armament, but have now my doubts. Lets do a weapon count here for the SV-262.

- Main turreted cannon/gunpod.

- Twin forward firing/wrist cannons.

- Twin forward firing/ head mounted machine guns.

- Conformable missile packs.

- Two Lil'Draken cannons

- A long letter-opener to pick the nose when idle.

If we look at the YF-29:

- Heavy gunpod.

- Main double cannon turret with (I think) forward firing capability even when not deployed.

- Twin Heavy machineguns

- Conformable missile packs.

- Even more missiles when super parts are mounted.

- A short letter-opener to trim and polish robotic nails and look cute.

It looks about the same, Draken trading a heavy turret for a twin one in the YF-29 and Lil'Draken cannons instead of more missiles.

[Master Dex]

Of course. Also, most of the talk here assume we are talking about combinations of the same engine, with same fuel consumption, and that is not the case of the YF-29. I even tended to think on the same lines about YF-29 armament, but have now my doubts. Lets do a weapon count here for the SV-262.

- Main turreted cannon/gunpod.

- Twin forward firing/wrist cannons.

- Twin forward firing/ head mounted machine guns.

- Conformable missile packs.

- Two Lil'Draken cannons

- A long letter-opener to pick the nose when idle.

If we look at the YF-29:

- Heavy gunpod.

- Main double cannon turret with (I think) forward firing capability even when not deployed.

- Twin Heavy machineguns

- Conformable missile packs.

- Even more missiles when super parts are mounted.

- A short letter-opener to trim and polish robotic nails and look cute.

It looks about the same, Draken trading a heavy turret for a twin one in the YF-29 and Lil'Draken cannons instead of more missiles.

The YF-29 also has head cannons in addition to the hip cannons you mentioned, it's gunpod is likely more powerful than the Drakken's is, has a ka-bar in addition to the bayonet, and it's turret is optimized to fire MDE rounds.

Counting the Lil Drakkens though is like counting super parts though. To wit, you did mention the YF-29 super parts which basically are just extra missile and fuel containers since it already has the 4 engines. So I'll give you that. Either way, the 29 has more on the subject of weapons though.

EDIT: I realized after posting I mentioned the bayonet, which is only applicable to the YF-29B. I typically think of that one though because I own the DX and prefer it to the Alto or other versions. I know the others don't have a bayonet though. The rest of what I said is still valid however.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Master Dex

[Product9]

Conformable missile packs.

I think the correct term is "conformal" but maybe both work. Just an aside.

So, what kind of engines does the Tornado Pack have? It has four of them, right?

Also, did you guys notice Arad and Chuck taking hits in the last episode? I don't know what caliber or type those guns were, but the -31s just shrugged them off. I can make a GIF if you don't know what I'm on about.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Product9

[Aries Turner]

And while not having SV-262 figures, YF-29 is more powerful and uses superior technology. I even thought the reason Wright Immelman's ride was restored was that Epsilon Foundation was contacted to allow them to reverse engineer it in exchange of a superior fighter. The SV-262 seems somewhat like VF-22 technology with lessons learned (*) from the VF-27, TW1 and YF-29, a superbly honed tool that if revamped with latest Shinshei or Galaxy technology would probably surpass VF-24, YF-30 and YF-29.

Who knows, maybe next series revolve around a young female engineer tinkering with a toy that... oh, sorry, done twice! (in Macross-R and Macross-30).

No, seriously, think about a SV-262 with the latest in IA, EXGear, ISC, FF-3XXX and QF-5XXX. That is the kind of things Israelis do to ex-Soviet equipment.

[Edit]: (*) Not knowing the specs of the twin engined YF-27-3/-5 prototypes, when faced between mounting smaller engines in the nacelles for reduced air resistance, the VF-27 opted for four of the same type, even if inferior in power output. The YF-29 retained the big FF-3001s and added another smaller engine even if that made the support chain more complex and expensive. Epsilon Foundation opted for a mixed approach: retain commonality but not between all engines of the design, but engines of the fleet, choosing an UAV engine. In fact, using an entire, streamlined UAV as an engine.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Master Dex]

Such a thing is probably inevitable, but likely not before Shinsei or another NUNS funded company has already made something better, or invented the 6th generation fighter or something. Federal NUNS at least is going to stay well ahead of anything for sure.

[Seto Kaiba]

so when it's destroyed, seems easier ( and cheaper) to just replace it rather than repair it right?

Your guess is as good as mine... it's not exactly small, so I'd assume repair would be the preferred option. We'll never know, because Xaos' management was apparently either unable or unwilling to do anything about the damage to the Macross Elysion.

if it a baster, and it's half destroyed did the engine cluster still working?

I honestly don't recall.

There is a caveat there, somewhere. Saying the Draken is atmospheric centric have not much more meaning than saying VF-25 is more atmospheric capable than the VF-25/SPS-25S combo.

No, there's no caveat here... you've kind of missed the reference point that's being used in the comparison.

The Draken III's atmospheric design focus and unique transformation resulted in the fighter having more limited onboard fuel storage and endurance than average in its generation... but they're not comparing it to a VF with a Super Pack. It comes up short compared to a "naked" 5th Generation VF. The Lilldrakens are the Draken III's equivalent of a Super Pack, and similarly extend its endurance in space.

So, in a sense, maybe be should consider the SV-262 also as a 'four' engines design when Lil'Drakens are installed, even if with less technologically advanced systems.

No, we shouldn't... becuase the Lilldrakens are akin to a Super Pack. They're not permanent parts of the fuselage the way the YF-29's engines are.

It looks about the same, Draken trading a heavy turret for a twin one in the YF-29 and Lil'Draken cannons instead of more missiles.

When you oversimplify, looks can be deceiving.

For one, the stock Sv-262Ba doesn't have the laser machine guns built into the nose/monitor turret.

For two, the YF-29's got three times the number of heavy quantum beam guns... two of which are the even nastier MDE beam weapons.

For three, the coaxial guns and micro-missiles the YF-29 is carrying are also using MDE warheads.

Lastly, the Draken III seems to be carrying a lot fewer missiles than what the YF-29 is carrying... several dozen, as opposed to 100+.

The YF-29 also has head cannons in addition to the hip cannons you mentioned, it's gunpod is likely more powerful than the Drakken's is, has a ka-bar in addition to the bayonet, and it's turret is optimized to fire MDE rounds.

Just a quick point... the YF-29 doesn't have hip guns in its stats. The machine guns are mounted on the monitor turret.

So, what kind of engines does the Tornado Pack have? It has four of them, right?

There are two engines in each wingtip pod on the Tornado Pack... the engine is described as a combination jet/rocket engine (a designation that makes pretty much zero sense to me... since a standard thermonuclear reaction engine fits that description nicely anyway.)

Also, did you guys notice Arad and Chuck taking hits in the last episode? I don't know what caliber or type those guns were, but the -31s just shrugged them off. I can make a GIF if you don't know what I'm on about.

D'you remember who was firing? If it was the forearm guns of the Draken III, those were 27mm railgun rounds.

The SV-262 seems somewhat like VF-22 technology with lessons learned (*) from the VF-27, TW1 and YF-29, a superbly honed tool that if revamped with latest Shinshei or Galaxy technology would probably surpass VF-24, YF-30 and YF-29.

Transformation-wise, it's more a descendant of the VF-9 than anything... but based on what's said in Great Mechanics G it seems more like a totally separate school of design thought. Edited October 2, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Product9]

For one, the stock Sv-252Ba doesn't have the laser machine guns built into the nose/monitor turret.

Did you mean Sv-262 then?

Unless you meant this:

Windermere must be getting pretty desperate. Though it would help with all the snow.

D'you remember who was firing? If it was the forearm guns of the Draken III, those were 27mm railgun rounds.

I'm not sure who exactly was doing the shooting, only that the bolts were red. Also, it looks like Chuck didn't take any hits, but Arad took a few without consequence.

[Seto Kaiba]

Did you mean Sv-262 then?

Unless you meant this:

Whoops-a-daisy... I accidentally type it as "Sv-252" with annoying frequency when I'm on my tablet.

Windermere must be getting pretty desperate. Though it would help with all the snow.

Quite... wouldn't mind one here either, a few months from now.

Maybe that's their punishment duty... being demoted from flying the Draken III to the slightly less feared Snöplog.

I'm not sure who exactly was doing the shooting, only that the bolts were red. Also, it looks like Chuck didn't take any hits, but Arad took a few without consequence.

IIRC the fire effect for the railguns was red on the Draken... so it may be that.

[JB0]

Did you mean Sv-262 then?

Unless you meant this:

Windermere must be getting pretty desperate. Though it would help with all the snow.

Is that the new Defender variable destroid?

[Master Dex]

Just a quick point... the YF-29 doesn't have hip guns in its stats. The machine guns are mounted on the monitor turret.

I know the stats say that but on M3 you and March admit it might be a mistake and bothered to call it out. I mean look at it, it has the same hip pieces as the 25. The mold looks like it has the guns too.

It seems silly to assume that isn't supposed to be there and that the head guns are projectile in contravention to every other design. I prefer to assume it has the weapons as the 25 does personally.