Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[Aries Turner]

IIRC those are officially "F-14A++".

I believe you. Still, those are cited everywhere else as Kai:

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/F-14_Tomcat

http://macross.wikia.com/wiki/F-14A%2BKai_Super_Tomcat

Before I forgot yet again, a spoiler for those of you that haven't seen Delta #24

Plot silliness aside (lets assume for a moment Hayate was making time for the Siegfrieds to arrive), when Alto rescued Luca, he connected his own EX-Gear to Luca RVF-25 using an external conection. Hayate, or Mirage, or the girls in VF-22 bay did so remotely, wirelessly, and without EX-Gear. Without piloting gestures either, unless Makina, Reina or Kaname were doing the remote piloting. Or Hayate doing the posing was a call signal for VF-31 AIs. Technologically, that is quite an interesting development. I assume there is some kind of sub-dermal chip to do the trick if Hayate or Mirage were the ones calling the fighters.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Zinjo]

I wonder... would the VF-31s with Walkure's equipment have to be designated VF-31_-##/XAOS? Unlike SMS and the VF-25s it was operating in Macross Frontier, Xaos seems to actually OWN the VF-31s it's operating... whereas SMS just had them on loan from the Frontier NUNS. Is the Alpha, Beta, and Gamma platoon VF-31A a governmental stock model or a monkey model made for PMC use? Is there one "region" code for the entire Brisingr Alliance, or does each world have its own? Questions questions...

i am doubtful the VF-31A's are anything but monkey models on evaluation to the region's contracted Paramilitary force Xaos. I think the specs reveal that. The Feds would not be running aircraft with the VF-25 engines when they could use those developed for the YF-30 Chronos or better. I am also doubtful the Feds would use a firm like Xaos to evaluate their full tech models. I would expect that would be reserved for NUNS evaluation squadrons and / or thoroughly vetted contractors who would serve along side Federal task forces where they could be supervised.

The VF-0 and the VF-1 were evaluated by the military not a PMC. We could expect most evaluations were done by UNS evaluation squadrons before the reformation of the UNG and the UNS. wWen everything decentralized and both organizations became the NUNG and the NUNS respectively, it appears that is when NUN tech sharing seemed to change.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

Still NUNS.

You seem to forget Illustria F-14 Kai squad. Shin's wasn't a one-off. He was supposed to fly an OT improved, in service, fleet-wide variant of the F-14. OK, F-14s are variable in other sense, but still...

Wait. Isamu VF-19EF "monkey model" performance isn't supposed to exceed base model? What I am to understand as "monkey model"?

Well that seems to be where the grey area is. The NUNS garrisons assigned to various fleets and colonies somehow report to both the local government and the Federal high command, but it isn't clear which has greater authority at this point. I am leaning toward the local government since most of the troops are locally grown. This may make the garrisons more like a "Reserve" force to the NUNS as a whole. They may get called up to participate in a larger conflict if needed, but their main priority is local defense.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

I believe you. Still, those are cited everywhere else as Kai:http://macross.anime.net/wiki/F-14_Tomcathttp://macross.wikia.com/wiki/F-14A%2BKai_Super_Tomcat

OK, after some digging I think I've found the explanation for this one... and even I was partly wrong.

The official sources (liner notes, Chronicle) identify Shin's F-14 as being a F-14A+. No double plus, no kai.

The F-14A++ and F-14A+2 designations belong to the same aircraft and come from Variable Fighter Master File, which is equivalent to the official F-14A+.

The Kai seems to be something Bandai added.

Plot silliness aside (lets assume for a moment Hayate was making time for the Siegfrieds to arrive), when Alto rescued Luca, he connected his own EX-Gear to Luca RVF-25 using an external conection. Hayate, or Mirage, or the girls in VF-22 bay did so remotely, wirelessly, and without EX-Gear. Without piloting gestures either, unless Makina, Reina or Kaname were doing the remote piloting. Or Hayate doing the posing was a call signal for VF-31 AIs. Technologically, that is quite an interesting development. I assume there is some kind of sub-dermal chip to do the trick if Hayate or Mirage were the ones calling the fighters.

The avionics and airframe control system are managed by a fairly sophisticated AI... I'd imagine they probably set up some manner of preconfigured behavior such that a fighter could react to an external signal by automatically flying to a specific set of coordinates. IIRC in Ep23 even the guys seemed to have communicators attached to their thumbnails... maybe Windermere just forgot to confiscate it (or didn't notice it?).

[Aries Turner]

The avionics and airframe control system are managed by a fairly sophisticated AI... I'd imagine they probably set up some manner of preconfigured behavior such that a fighter could react to an external signal by automatically flying to a specific set of coordinates. IIRC in Ep23 even the guys seemed to have communicators attached to their thumbnails... maybe Windermere just forgot to confiscate it (or didn't notice it?).

Not probable. Well, the show is cheesy enough, but those are fairly specific coordinates and fairly specific Walküre trinkets. In #1 the girls contacted Mirage while elsewhere and I don't think she had such a nail. Also, XAOS ops could have mandated implants, but seeing the bias against cyborgs shown in Frontier, I wouldn't think so (Note: nails count toward cyborg status, but I am assuming those get a pass as pretty non invasive). So I think Arad got a fix on them, passed the coordinates to Reina and she and Makina did the piloting (piloting in the drone sense: fly to waypoint, adjust manually if needed).

However, that would mean those VF not only 'fell' to allow a soft landing after a second or two of falling... those have to cool as well, because wherever those were, it sure was a very, VERY fast trip. Sonic thunders disguissed in the firing.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Aries Turner

[kalvasflam]

The avionics and airframe control system are managed by a fairly sophisticated AI... I'd imagine they probably set up some manner of preconfigured behavior such that a fighter could react to an external signal by automatically flying to a specific set of coordinates. IIRC in Ep23 even the guys seemed to have communicators attached to their thumbnails... maybe Windermere just forgot to confiscate it (or didn't notice it?).

I think we have to just chalk this whole rescue to bad writing. It would've been entirely believable if Arad had been in his Siggy and controlling the other two remotely, there is a precedent for that with the VF-1EX, but Arad was not in his plane, he was in a VF-22 with none of the right protocols (at least I hope not, after seven years) The other possibility is Reina was controlling both planes remotely, that I think is actually pretty realistic. Preconfiguring the fighter to pick you up as you jumped off a cliff takes a little more imagination.

As for the fingernails, I thought that was a Walkure thing, they always had holograms and such on those nails of theirs. i-Nails anyone?

[Zinjo]

OK, after some digging I think I've found the explanation for this one... and even I was partly wrong.

The official sources (liner notes, Chronicle) identify Shin's F-14 as being a F-14A+. No double plus, no kai.

The F-14A++ and F-14A+2 designations belong to the same aircraft and come from Variable Fighter Master File, which is equivalent to the official F-14A+.

The Kai seems to be something Bandai added.

It is unfortunate Kawamori didn't do more research or perhaps it wasn't on the interweb back in 2001, but the next generation F-14 was going to be the "ST21" Super Tomcat F-14 http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-history-f14x.htm which ended up being supplanted by the adoption of the F-18 Hornet instead. The Super Tomcat had a redesigned fuselage to the original, updated avionics and much more. It could have been a contemporary to the F-18's in service in 2008 as the need for fighters would be a priority during the Unification wars.

The Tomcats used in Mac Zero should have been, at best, F-14D's. Granted there were more F-14+'s deployed, but if the fighter saw extended service they would likely have been updated or retrofitted "D" model upgrades to Super Tomcats giving them similar capabilities to the F-18's. To be fair, perhaps the "++" is somehow a way to designate such an upgrade program. I'd rather he designated these units as fighters upgraded to the actual "D[R]" model rather than the way he did. The "D[R]" model refers to the 18 retrofitted "A" models to "D" specifications that finished out the 55 unit "D" model purchase by the US Navy in 1991 before the contract cancellation. Only 37 finished "D" models were delivered to the Navy, plus the 18 retrofits.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

I think we have to just chalk this whole rescue to bad writing. It would've been entirely believable if Arad had been in his Siggy and controlling the other two remotely, there is a precedent for that with the VF-1EX, but Arad was not in his plane, he was in a VF-22 with none of the right protocols (at least I hope not, after seven years) The other possibility is Reina was controlling both planes remotely, that I think is actually pretty realistic. Preconfiguring the fighter to pick you up as you jumped off a cliff takes a little more imagination.

As for the fingernails, I thought that was a Walkure thing, they always had holograms and such on those nails of theirs. i-Nails anyone?

I don't recall the episode but I do remember Hayate receiving a communication from Arad from his finger nail computer.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Zinjo

[Master Dex]

So the VF that Basara sto- ahem... Purchases on credit (lol) in D7 is in fact inferior to his old one then. After all UN Spacey paid for the original as part of project M.

Though, Basara likely wouldn't care as long as he can fly and sing.

[Nazareno2012]

It is unfortunate Kawamori didn't do more research or perhaps it wasn't on the interweb back in 2001, but the next generation F-14 was going to be the "ST21" Super Tomcat F-14 http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-history-f14x.htm which ended up being supplanted by the adoption of the F-18 Hornet instead. The Super Tomcat had a redesigned fuselage to the original, updated avionics and much more. It could have been a contemporary to the F-18's in service in 2008 as the need for fighters would be a priority during the Unification wars.

The Tomcats used in Mac Zero should have been, at best, F-14D's. Granted there were more F-14+'s deployed, but if the fighter saw extended service they would likely have been updated or retrofitted "D" model upgrades to Super Tomcats giving them similar capabilities to the F-18's. To be fair, perhaps the "++" is somehow a way to designate such an upgrade program. I'd rather he designated these units as fighters upgraded to the actual "D[R]" model rather than the way he did. The "D[R]" model refers to the 18 retrofitted "A" models to "D" specifications that finished out the 55 unit "D" model purchase by the US Navy in 1991 before the contract cancellation. Only 37 finished "D" models were delivered to the Navy, plus the 18 retrofits.

Maybe the F-14A's came from Iran?

[Seto Kaiba]

Not probable. Well, the show is cheesy enough, but those are fairly specific coordinates and fairly specific Walküre trinkets.

We've seen members of Delta Flight use them... so clearly not that improbable. Arad used one in Ep23.

I think we have to just chalk this whole rescue to bad writing.

Just the rescue... not the entire series?

It is unfortunate Kawamori didn't do more research or perhaps it wasn't on the interweb back in 2001, but the next generation F-14 was going to be the "ST21" Super Tomcat F-14 http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-history-f14x.htm which ended up being supplanted by the adoption of the F-18 Hornet instead. The Super Tomcat had a redesigned fuselage to the original, updated avionics and much more.

I think Kawamori and co. probably did their research just fine... the F-14A is the most numerous F-14 variant, and the units aboard the Illustria were not new-built units. They were retrofit models that had been improved with OTM from the VF-0 program, presumably to help them keep pace with the new fighters entering service that were developed and built around OTM like the F203 Dragon II and MiM-31.

Variable Fighter Master File does mention a version of the F-14X though, which adopted more OTM and advancements like thrust vectoring... and was also used in the initial variable fighter testbed program. (Essentially, they paint the thing as the direct ancestor of the VF-0.)

So the VF that Basara sto- ahem... Purchases on credit (lol) in D7 is in fact inferior to his old one then. After all UN Spacey paid for the original as part of project M.

Though, Basara likely wouldn't care as long as he can fly and sing.

Aye... by a modest margin in terms of engines, and a more noteworthy one in terms of weaponry.

It's one thing to have monkey model units that Shinsei and General Galaxy are required to sell to New UN Gov't member states in lieu of the full-capability versions used by the Federal New UN Forces... but the question that I keep on coming back to is whether there's a further reduction in capability done with fighters that are being sold to non-governmental organizations like Strategic Military Services or Xaos to ensure that the local NUNS will always be a fair bit shootier than the corporate goons.

[kalvasflam]

I don't recall the episode but I do remember Hayate receiving a communication from Arad from his finger nail computer.

Oh, I must've missed that one... so weird, finger nails as phones. I figured it was more natural for the Walkure, a girl thing, right?

Just the rescue... not the entire series?

Well, there were at least a couple of decent episodes.... But then I do find that tech in this particular series seem a little inconsistent.

[Aries Turner]

I checked #1 and while Mikumo phoned Mirage through her nail(phone), Mirage answered via mobile. Didn't notice Arad or Hayate's, but good to know they upgraded tech beyond Mirage's vintage fashion

Moving right along: it already puzzled me in Frontier the low survivability ratio of Cheyenne II. Sure, Destroids popped like popcorn in SDFM, but VF-1A also did. However, Cheyenne II in Delta are even worse. Those haven't keep pace with new Regults. REGULTS, for goodness shake!

While destroid engines are almost always only one and of far less output than VFs, in theory, without weight or shape constraints, destroids should be able to have a single engine with enough output to at least deploy some competent form of SWAG or even pinpoint barriers at this age, and the things would still compare favorably to VF costs. THAT should be chalked as bad writing. As Cheyenne II have some degree of coolness factor, it should deserve better.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Master Dex]

Nah, modern day (as in modern for Frontier and Delta times) cost-benefit analyses have basically concluded that VFs are the better answer even if they are overall more expensive than any destroid. They are far more versatile and you get more use from one VF than you do from many destroids. Sure you can make them cheap, but when it comes down to it, in the Macross world, making VFs has become one of the primary industries of the NUNG, and they've gotten pretty damn good at it. Anyone relying on destroids anymore are basically people who can't afford VFs and they are lagging behind, and not doing as well comparatively.

[Aries Turner]

That could be true, but having VF-171s, VF-25s or VF-31s for *police* duty or strictly for colony fleet interior defense seems like a waste. Picture one of those wherever we have seen Cheyenne II or even Beatrices. It can't be that cheap.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

Moving right along: it already puzzled me in Frontier the low survivability ratio of Cheyenne II. Sure, Destroids popped like popcorn in SDFM, but VF-1A also did. However, Cheyenne II in Delta are even worse. Those haven't keep pace with new Regults. REGULTS, for goodness shake!

It's not terribly surprising, really... even after being modernized, you can't escape the fact that the Cheyenne II is a 50+ year old clunker that belongs to a family of mecha that had been retired as generally unsuited for anything but anti-aircraft defense almost three decades prior and retired to service as the spacefuture equivalent of heavy equipment. Mobility is king on the battlefield in Macross, and a big slow walking tank just can't hack it for obvious reasons... which is why we really haven't seen a new destroid since the First Space War ended.

Get right down to it, it's basically a Workroid someone gussied up with armor, guns, and a fresh coat of "kill me khaki" paint. Frontier did it because they wanted an AA platform that wouldn't mess up the pavement inside their Islands (no, really!). Al Shahal's probably using them because it's a comparatively impoverished and underdeveloped part of the New UN Government... it's still slightly more effective than resorting to harsh language.

While destroid engines are almost always only one and of far less output than VFs, in theory, without weight or shape constraints, destroids should be able to have a single engine with enough output to at least deploy some competent form of SWAG or even pinpoint barriers at this age, and the things would still compare favorably to VF costs. THAT should be chalked as bad writing. As Cheyenne II have some degree of coolness factor, it should deserve better.

Actually, most destroids have two power plants... a primary generator, and a lower-output backup generator. The only one that has a documented engine and didn't have two generators was the MBR-07 series Spartan.

Most destroids do, in fact, possess energy conversion armor... but their more limited generator outputs mean that it's less a primary defense and more just supplementing the strength of a considerable amount of physical armor. That's an approach that worked well in the First Space War, giving the Tomahawk more armor strength than the VF-1 battroid, but VFs and their substantial reactor outputs won the armor arms race in the years that followed.

Really, that there are destroids at all in Frontier or Delta is where the bad writing is... previous shows already made it quite clear that a destroid is good for little more than construction equipment or police duty.

That could be true, but having VF-171s, VF-25s or VF-31s for *police* duty or strictly for colony defense seems like a waste. Picture one of those wherever we have seen Cheyenne II or even Beatrices. It can't be that cheap.

Generally speaking, the goal is to stop the enemy in space before he gets to your planet... and you have to do something with your fighters when a enemy hasn't presented itself. Voldor didn't seem to have any problem with using VFs for ground patrols... and Eden didn't either.

[Aries Turner]

Cheyenne II is a 50+ year old clunker that belongs to a family of mecha that had been retired as generally unsuited for anything but anti-aircraft defense almost three decades prior and retired to service as the spacefuture equivalent of heavy equipment.

Cheyenne II should be as similar to Cheyenne ADR-03 as a F-18C is to a F-18E. Cheyenne II have more in common with Tomahawk MBR role than Cheyenne or Defenders ADRs. Defender Mk XV have shorter range weapons, as a MBR reconstruction of the ADR exchanging area defense for self-defense. Since SDF-1, local area defense duty falls on turrets and silos.

Frontier did it because they wanted an AA platform that wouldn't mess up the pavement inside their Islands (no, really!). Al Shahal's probably using them because it's a comparatively impoverished and underdeveloped part of the New UN Government... it's still slightly more effective than resorting to harsh language.

Destroids (and Regults, Glaugs and Q-Rea) should still have a high effectiveness per cost ratio or simply wouldn't be there. Even if against minor incidents not deserving a memento series, as in 2055, 2061, 2062, 2063,...

May hypothetical super EX-Gears or MDP-001W Cygnus ground carriers be better at defensive and point defense capability? Maybe. Which takes me to your point:

Really, that there are destroids at all in Frontier or Delta is where the bad writing is... previous shows already made it quite clear that a destroid is good for little more than construction equipment or police duty.

Inside Island-class without sky, a permanently parked inside VF makes no sense. If only those destroids had a FF-3001A and backup FF-2110A,...

Voldor and Eden did with VFs because you have, as Alto would say, a sky there to fly and defend. We may or may have not seen Al-Tsahal defenses. The fact is the garrison we see is a Marine garrison. Marines (and Army) need to be based somewhere.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Aries Turner]

tl;dr, back to facts:

- We see Destroids based near or working alongside Zentran hardware, maybe even as a unit. The fact we see those establishes those are still useful for some purpose.

- We see those destroids fail to reach a similar standard of effectiveness as their zentraedi counterparts.

Either we earthlings are contributing sub-par hardware to Zentraedi-Earthling joint taskforces.

or

We have relegated the task to them entirely and totally neglected the hardware to do the same task.

The first conclusion mean either failing to deploy better destroids or VFs. Frontier destroids fared better against Vajra than Delta destroids against Regults. Lacks of resources is no excuse, as that Zentran hardware uses human manufacture either from the ground up or mix and match, as no Factory Satellite should be expected to combine Zentran and Meltran parts by default, without earthling transmitted knowledge.

The second conclusion would mean at least local NUN and possibly federal NUN are certainly corrupt and lazy. Maybe that is what happened.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Zinjo]

I think Kawamori and co. probably did their research just fine... the F-14A is the most numerous F-14 variant, and the units aboard the Illustria were not new-built units. They were retrofit models that had been improved with OTM from the VF-0 program, presumably to help them keep pace with the new fighters entering service that were developed and built around OTM like the F203 Dragon II and MiM-31.

Variable Fighter Master File does mention a version of the F-14X though, which adopted more OTM and advancements like thrust vectoring... and was also used in the initial variable fighter testbed program. (Essentially, they paint the thing as the direct ancestor of the VF-0.)

The last F-14D's were delivered in 1991, the last Tomcat was retired in 2006. So any F-14's would have been on extended service in 2008 and if there was an expected threat from space, I am doubtful serviceable Tomcats would have been retired or used as mere "A" models. If they could have been retrofitted conventionally when OTEC was being researched it is strongly likely they would have been.

Ugh, the F203 and MIM-31 were the fugliest throw away designs ever to come out of any Macross production...

Edited September 15, 2016 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

Cheyenne II should be as similar to Cheyenne ADR-03 as a F-18C is to a F-18E. Cheyenne II have more in common with Tomahawk MBR role than Cheyenne or Defenders ADRs. Defender Mk XV have shorter range weapons, as a MBR reconstruction of the ADR exchanging area defense for self-defense. Since SDF-1, local area defense duty falls on turrets and silos.

The Cheyenne II's a modernized ADR-03-Mk.III Cheyenne... but its equipment and its operating profile is largely the same. Macross Chronicle's mechanic sheet identifies it as still being mainly for air defense. Those particle beam guns it has are enough to improve its abilities against hard targets, but that only makes it an air defense robot with a little extra firepower.

Destroids (and Regults, Glaugs and Q-Rea) should still have a high effectiveness per cost ratio or simply wouldn't be there. Even if against minor incidents not deserving a memento series, as in 2055, 2061, 2062, 2063,...

May hypothetical super EX-Gears or MDP-001W Cygnus ground carriers be better at defensive and point defense capability? Maybe. Which takes me to your point:

That's kind of an interesting assumption given the general absence of destroid units in all but a few remote regions. It's not clear why Al Shahal wanted the Cheyenne II, but Frontier opted for them on the basis of a very specific niche need rather than general usefulness or cost-performance.

Likewise, the maintenance of Zentradi hardware is also predicated on more than just cost-effectiveness. Namely, the need for equipment that suits the combat style and physical proportions of the Zentradi soldiers of the NUNS Marines. Mind you, it's been explicitly said of at least one of /those/ units that the reason the military kept them around is their exceptional performance. I'd imagine the high-mobility performance of the ZBP-104 and ZBP-106 is something to write home about as well.

We see Destroids based near or working alongside Zentran hardware, maybe even as a unit.

The dialog would point to them being two separate units... one is the Zentradi NUNS Marines and the other is some Al Shahal ground force unit.

The fact we see those establishes those are still useful for some purpose.

Perhaps in the relatively underdeveloped or cash-strapped Brisingr Alliance...

- We see those destroids fail to reach a similar standard of effectiveness as their zentraedi counterparts.

Either we earthlings are contributing sub-par hardware to Zentraedi-Earthling joint taskforces.

or

We have relegated the task to them entirely and totally neglected the hardware to do the same task.

The New UN Forces generally doesn't use destroids anymore... so that's more of a case of Al Shahal fielding destroids for no clear reason, when destroids are a generally ineffective combat platform. The Zentradi Marines are using mecha that account for the realities of space warfare that destroids were never suited to.

[RedWolf]

Voldor and Eden did with VFs because you have, as Alto would say, a sky there to fly and defend. We may or may have not seen Al-Tsahal defenses. The fact is the garrison we see is a Marine garrison. Marines (and Army) need to be based somewhere.

Actually going by Macross Plus the UN Army is the UN Forces. UN Forces was split between UN Spacy (Space Army), UN Air Force, UN Space Air Force, UN Navy, UN Space Marines and UN Marines. Going by Isamu's record the Air Force and Navy were still around.

Now with NUNS (New UN Spacy/Forces/Army) they still have a Space Marine Corps as of Frontier and the Ride however they don't seem to fly VFs but are using Destroids and modernized Zentradi mecha.

[Aries Turner]

The Cheyenne II's a modernized ADR-03-Mk.III Cheyenne... but its equipment and its operating profile is largely the same. [...]It's not clear why Al Shahal wanted the Cheyenne II, but Frontier opted for them on the basis of a very specific niche

That specific niche being permanently stationed *inside* a ship for its own defense against intruders. No other mecha or vehicle do better (1). We see Brera zig-zaging in there, but the ceiling is just too low.

Also, I can quote yourself about Kawamori *saying* nothing is really cannon and Kawamori *acting* as if something is, so whatever the Macross Chronicle says, we have seen more Cheyenne II in roles other than ADR than those who were: Macross Attack fire support, police duty, flamethrower aided anti-infestations, even funeral service. Way more times than actual air or space defense.

The Zentradi Marines are using mecha that account for the realities of space warfare that destroids were never suited to.

Half true, if only for taking the Q-Rea into the mix: although space capable, Regults are hardly more than sitting ducks in space, optimized for land engagements and only deployed in space unassisted by Gnerls on a 2031 movie. So in fact, Zentraedi Marines still use a mecha optimized for land warfare, proving it is not an obsolete concept. It does however illustrate one of your objections: battlefield mobility over excessive armoring and weight.

While in theory a land tank 60 tons in weight (or 120, or a Combine OGRE/ Paneuropean Fencer size monster-thing) could be made with a decent OTM turbine to make it able to defeat Monster class weaponry, the surrounding terrain can't, so the thing could end unharmed but upside down, in a crater.

(1) However, although some Cheyenne II were shown defeating smaller Vajra, it is a fact only Ozma Armored VF-25S matched and defeated a large one. With that into account, if the whole purpose of parked Destroids is buying time until the arrival of a based elsewhere armored VF, maybe in Delta or beyond Delta the MDP-001W Cygnus would prove a better option, as the things could not defeat Vajra but seem able to shield the population even against large Vajra hypergrenade-like firepower. Or die trying without any pilot actually dying in the process.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Aries Turner

[RedWolf]

Gnerls on a 2031 movie.

Space Fighter Pod didn't appear in DYRL but the Golg Gants Charts did.

[Aries Turner]

Space Fighter Pod didn't appear in DYRL but the Golg Gants Charts did.

You quoted myself as if I were pointing the presence rather than the notable absence of the Gnerls there. Regults died onscreen in DYRL almost as soon as seen. The Golg Gants Charts wasn't as maneuverable as a Gnerl: it was more a heavy support unit. In SDFM, Space Battles were Gnerl province until the arrival of Q-Rau. That is why I say that although space capable, Regults are optimized for land warfare. Edited September 16, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually going by Macross Plus the UN Army is the UN Forces. UN Forces was split between UN Spacy (Space Army), UN Air Force, UN Space Air Force, UN Navy, UN Space Marines and UN Marines. Going by Isamu's record the Air Force and Navy were still around.Now with NUNS (New UN Spacy/Forces/Army) they still have a Space Marine Corps as of Frontier and the Ride however they don't seem to fly VFs but are using Destroids and modernized Zentradi mecha.

The UN Forces and New UN Forces are divided into seven branches... you've got some of the names wrong. The four terrestrial branches are your standard Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps. The other three are the Space Forces, that being the Spacy, Spacy Air Force, and Spacy Marine Corps.

To date, I don't believe the NUNS Marines have been associated with destroids... the only mecha we've ever seen associated with them are variable fighters and Zentradi mecha.

That specific niche being permanently stationed *inside* a ship for its own defense against intruders. No other mecha or vehicle do better.

... you sure you watched the same show we did? The niche is one thing, but to characterize their effectiveness as anything other than "abysmal" would be to stretch the truth to an astonishing degree. Armor will only do so much, being highly mobile is what keeps you alive in Macross... which is why those destroids die in droves even fighting against battle pods.

A battle pod or battroid could do the job of fighting inside the islands just as well (or better), the only problem is they'd muss up the pavement... and a fastidious Frontier Government apparently considered that a step too far.

Also, I can quote yourself about Kawamori *saying* nothing is really cannon and Kawamori *acting* as if something is, so whatever the Macross Chronicle says, we have seen more Cheyennes in roles other than ADR than those who were: [...]

I feel like an English teacher whenever I have to make this point, but a canon is something you can get behind... a cannon is something you should never try standing in front of.

Also, you'd be misquoting me if you did... remember, the point was Kawamori's down on the idea of inter-series canon. He considers each Macross series an island unto itself. So what's written in coverage for a mecha in the context of a series (e.g. a Macross Chronicle Mechanic Sheet) would be quite valid.

The other English teacher nitpick (and I hate doing that, because I'm only an adjunct faculty member in summer semester and only in Computer Science), is I said that the Cheyenne II's operating profile is still mainly air defense. It can do other things, and really an AA gun becomes an anti-everything gun if the enemy is close enough, but it's mostly for shooting at flying enemies.

Half true, if only for taking the Q-Rea into the mix: although space capable, Regults are hardly more than sitting ducks in space, optimized for land engagements and only deployed in space unassisted by Gnerls on a 2031 movie.

No, I'm pretty much bang-on. You're forgetting the Zentradi 500,000 year war with the Supervision Army has been fought almost entirely in space... they're not the best space fighters out there, but battlepods are very much a deadly space fighter when used properly (which usually entails "send a load of those at the enemy"). In fact, the official materials mention they're kind of lousy on land because of their high center of gravity and low stability due to the leg design. (That's why they prefer to jump instead of running.)

[RedWolf]

The UN Forces and New UN Forces are divided into seven branches... you've got some of the names wrong. The four terrestrial branches are your standard Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps. The other three are the Space Forces, that being the Spacy, Spacy Air Force, and Spacy Marine Corps.

To date, I don't believe the NUNS Marines have been associated with destroids... the only mecha we've ever seen associated with them are variable fighters and Zentradi mecha.

U.N. Forces

From Macross Compendium

UNAF U.N. Air Force

UNN U.N. Navy

UNS U.N. Spacy

UNSAF U.N. Space Air Force

UNSM U.N. Space Marines

The only on screen appearance of UN Army is Macross Plus but the word for Army and Forces is pretty much the same "Gun". In Macross the Ride NUNS Marines were piloting the Defender and Super Defenders. As for the Marines Macross Zero had marines aboard the Asuka II. They have a professional rivalry with the Air Force as seen with Shin's ass getting handed to him.

[Aries Turner]

being highly mobile is what keeps you alive in Macross... which is why those destroids die in droves even fighting against battle pods.

That is a contradiction in itself, as those skating Macross II clones are way more mobile than SDFM destroids and as lightly armored as Regults. The exchange ratio should have been close to 1:1. 3:1 at most if that Zentraedis were that good.

A battle pod or battroid could do the job of fighting inside the islands just as well (or better), the only problem is they...

...have to arrive there. Or assign patrol duty to Regults, but Regults are as rice-paper armored as Cheyenne II, so...

I feel like an English teacher whenever I have to make this point, but a canon is something you can get behind... a cannon is something you should never try standing in front of.

Oops. I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing.

I said that the Cheyenne II's operating profile is still mainly air defense.

Duty that is only taken during free time. Now seriously: the only reason SDRs were ever developed is that SDF-1 lacked adequate point defense during its maiden voyage. Once integral in every vessel design, SDR and ADRs are *absolutely* obsolete. Field experience relegated Spartans to police duty and construction/ demolition work. Only niche still with a role is MBR, the same role as Regults. It is not uncommon to re-purpose a given design. Macross-7 adapted some old VF-1 to construction/ welding worker duty. Cheyenne was an ADR. The inspired in, new design, most of the time is not. And is not because most ships have adequate point-defenses. Except Macross Quarter's carrier.

No, I'm pretty much bang-on. You're forgetting the Zentradi 500,000 year war with the Supervision Army has been fought almost entirely in space... they're not the best space fighters out there, but battlepods are very much a deadly space fighter when used properly (which usually entails "send a load of those at the enemy"). In fact, the official materials mention they're kind of lousy on land because of their high center of gravity and low stability due to the leg design. (That's why they prefer to jump instead of running.)

It seems it is you forgetting Zentran do space battles on *Gnerls*. When sending thousands of battlepods, those die by the thousands, as seen in the first minutes of DYRL. And instability on land is not a bad thing, as it aids in maneuverability. It is more difficult to steer something inherently stable. Edited September 16, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

U.N. Forces

From Macross Compendium

Funnily enough, if you'd looked up the abbreviations individually over on the Compendium or, really, checked any Macross artbook or tech manual that mentions them, you'd have realized that index page you cited is incorrect for those abbreviations. It's "Spacy Air Force" and "Spacy Marine Corps".

The only on screen appearance of UN Army is Macross Plus but the word for Army and Forces is pretty much the same "Gun".

This is also incorrect. The UN Army is also seen in Macross II, where characters are shown with uniform patches that clearly read "ARMY". The Army troops also have a distinctive uniform variant in a different color from the Spacy and other branches (khaki). The most visible one (and the one featured in the art books) is the UN Army colonel who commanded Earth's defenses in the last episode.

In Macross the Ride NUNS Marines were piloting the Defender and Super Defenders. As for the Marines Macross Zero had marines aboard the Asuka II. They have a professional rivalry with the Air Force as seen with Shin's ass getting handed to him.

I don't recall it mentioning them as Marines... can you cite a page? I recall them identified as beloning to the Macross Galaxy Corporate Army.

Also don't recall any explicit identification of the Cheyennes in Zero being UN Marine Corps property... they're badged UN SPACY, but the model was used by multiple branches of the UN Forces including the Marines, Army, Navy, and Spacy.

I think you may be jumping to some conclusions here...

That is a contradiction in itself, as those skating Macross II clones are way more mobile than SDFM destroids and as lightly armored as Regults.

To the best of my knowledge, no comparison has been drawn between the armor of the Cheyenne II and the New UN Forces battlepod derivatives... so that right there is an unfounded assumption.

Apart from the Monster, the original generation Destroids were reasonably mobile... certainly as much so as the Cheyenne, but nowhere near as much as a battlepod or VF. It was not often shown, however, since the destroids had an unpleasant habit of standing still and shooting. A bad habit they still have in the 2050's and 2060's.

Duty that is only taken during free time.

Your source? We've seen Valkyries used as ground-based protection in normal duty even during wartime, going back as far as the original series. The Grand Cannon 1/Alaska Base surface side installation had a VF-1 guard detail, we've even documented their unique color scheme on M3. There was a VF-1 guard detail outside the base inside the SDF-1, outside New Edwards on Eden, patrolling the city on occupied Voldor, etc. etc. etc.

Once integral in every vessel design, SDR and ADRs are *absolutely* obsolete.

Most of the galaxy would seem to agree with you... though the Frontier fleet apparently felt there was still a niche there, because official material has described the Cheyenne II as principally being for air defense. You don't have to like it... but it IS official.

Field experience relegated Spartans to police duty and construction/ demolition work.

More that their role could be done better by Valkyries... but hey.

It seems it is you forgetting Zentran do space battles on *Gnerls*. When sending thousands of battlepods, those die by the thousands, as seen in the first minutes of DYRL. And instability on land is not a bad thing, as it aids in maneuverability. It is more difficult to steer something inherently stable.

You... may want to go rewatch the original series. The Gnerl was much, MUCH less common in air and space battles than battle pods and battle suits. The bloody thing didn't even appear in DYRL?... and I don't recall it in any other Macross titles besides Macross M3 and Macross 30, whereas the Regult is EVERYWHERE. Even in Macross 30, the Regult is a MUCH more common unit than the Gnerl or any other Zentradi mecha.

Regults were the most common unit in the Zentradi army, explicitly described as the Zentradi Army's main mecha.

Yeah, they die a lot... but it's worth remembering two facts:

1. In DYRL, the VF-1s had to thin the herd with reaction weapons to have any hope of surviving. (The standard DYRL load in line art, toys, etc. is four RMS-1 thermonuclear reaction missiles and two UUM-7 missile pods).

2. For the first 2/3 of the original series and a good chunk of DYRL, the Zentradi were deliberately pulling their punches in the name of studying humanity.

IIRC the VF-1 achieved a 12:1 kill ratio against the unmodified Regult when the Zentradi weren't fighting seriously... and presumably the ZBP-104 and -106 have received significant defensive upgrades as the Queadluun-Rhea did when it was developed from the Queadluun-Rau. After all, the New UN Forces don't consider their Zentradi soldiers expendable and don't clone 'em by the billion the way Zentradi main fleets do.

[Aries Turner]

To the best of my knowledge, no comparison has been drawn between the armor of the Cheyenne II and the New UN Forces battlepod derivatives... so that right there is an unfounded assumption.

In the sense that you pointed me most Zentraedi mecha have sub-par armor compared to VF. My assumption is thus that destroid armor is as bad. Al-Tsahal incident (and you) are pointing it is generally worse. OK. Maybe. Didn't show in any of the other confrontations: destroids poped, but as much as Zentraedi mecha.

Your source? We've seen Valkyries...

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Calm down, go back and look again: we were talking about ADRs function, and how often those where assumed on Frontier: almost only on free time. My sources being, Frontier the series and Frontier the movies.

though the Frontier fleet apparently felt there was still a niche there, because official material has described the Cheyenne II as principally being for air defense. You don't have to like it... but it IS official.

You may not like it, but Frontier indeed found a niche for them. And it wasn't ADR duties most of the time, and certainly not SDFM Defender ADR duties until the very end, which contrary to its designation where mostly in space, as second tier SDR, if the letters are to mean "Air" and "Space". However, with most opponents flying even if at ground level and certainly within a kind of atmosphere, I would accept some of the roles involve Zero like ADR roles, thus reconciling Macross Chronicle designation, and would call it a day.

The [Gnerl] thing didn't even appear in DYRL?

My point exactly. Regults were deployed without even Gnerl support in DYRL. The net result is most Regults dying in the first exchange of shots between them and VF-1A, while Gnerl had a somewhat better survival ratio on SDFM. But OK, I was talking about movies and series, and you are including the games that somewhat followed DYRL doctrine that Gnerls were too dull to even have a cameo. The Gnerl may have to be the Warthog of the Zentraedi war machine: capable, but incapacitated. 500,000 years of warfare would indeed have shown Zentrans it was their best space battle platform. Probably those did, to the point of spending most of the stock in the war effort, thus explaining the ill advised choice to deploy Regults in space.

IIRC the VF-1 achieved a 12:1 kill ratio against the unmodified Regult when the Zentradi weren't fighting seriously... and presumably the ZBP-104 and -106 have received significant defensive upgrades as the Queadluun-Rhea did when it was developed from the Queadluun-Rau. After all, the New UN Forces don't consider their Zentradi soldiers expendable and don't clone 'em by the billion the way Zentradi main fleets do.

...however, strangely enough, they seem fine sending hundreds of Destroid pilots to certain deaths. I fail to see the logic here. I failed so much that I made the assumption that starts this post hoping the military treated pilots almost as well as Zentraedi recruits, if not better. My wrong. However you look at it, destroid *duty* needs a better mecha. Even if it is surplus or new VF. I am suspecting the whole thing about Destroids wiped in Delta #1 is another case of bad writing causing a lot of unexplained deaths for the shake of drama. That, or UN Forces really consider pilots expendable if not of Zentraedi origin.

HOWEVER, the magical mini-drones may have closed the Destroid usefulness window entirely, making this technical discussion moot, as the flying things showed impressive defensive capabilities.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Zinjo]

The Spacy Marines have never been a featured corps in Macross media outside of the Zentradi (so far).

I always took the Marine rivalry with Spacy to simply be an extension of the US Marine rivalry with the US Navy. They belong to the same service branch, but are distinct armed forces within it and that is how I personally see the Spacy Marines with respect to Spacy itself.

It is common for the US Navy to ferry Marine forces on board their ships, that doesn't mean they get along. Their nicknames for each other give this away as they are not very flattering. Jarheads for Marines and Squids for Navy.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Zinjo

[Sildani]

My Ass Is Riding In Naval Equipment.

Muscles Are Required, Intelligence, Not Essential.

Stuff like that. However, it's all teasing. The instant another service member from another branch tries to insult one, just watch how fast the leathernecks and swabbies join ranks.

[Zinjo]

My Ass Is Riding In Naval Equipment.

Muscles Are Required, Intelligence, Not Essential.

Stuff like that. However, it's all teasing. The instant another service member from another branch tries to insult one, just watch how fast the leathernecks and swabbies join ranks.

Naturally.

[Seto Kaiba]

In the sense that you pointed me most Zentraedi mecha have sub-par armor compared to VF. My assumption is thus that destroid armor is as bad. Al-Tsahal incident (and you) are pointing it is generally worse. OK. Maybe. Didn't show in any of the other confrontations: destroids poped, but as much as Zentraedi mecha.

You gotta remember that a VF's armor is some seriously tough stuff... calling armor "sub-par compared to VFs" covers a MASSIVE range of armor strength once you're looking at 4th Generation or later VFs.

Just as an example, if we were to assume the Cheyenne II had armor equivalent to 1/2 the battroid-mode defensive ability of a VF-171, that doesn't sound as impressive as it is. Half a VF-171's armor strength is a 33% improvement over the 1st and 2nd Generation VFs and the Tomahawk destroid. About 2-3 times the armor strength of the VF-25 is in full blown cruiser-level battleship armor territory.

(Also, it's "Al Shahal" with a shah- sound, from the katakana. I don't speak any Arabic, so I'll confess I have no idea what the significance is. Were you mentally connecting it to the abbreviation for the Israeli army?)

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Calm down, go back and look again: we were talking about ADRs function, and how often those where assumed on Frontier: almost only on free time.

That's kind of an unfounded declaration in and of itself, given that the units are seldom actually seen inside the domes at all... and we only see a fraction of the ~30 islands in the Macross Frontier.

(Island-15 "Reno" doesn't count, since most of the VFs kept there are owned by civilians.)

It's also not even clear how many of the few Cheyenne IIs seen inside Island-1 are New UN Forces-owned, as SMS has their own complement of 'em.

EDIT: It's also quite possible that there are no Cheyenne IIs stationed inside the domes under normal circumstances either... and that they sortie out from the Battle Frontier when an alert is called, the same way we've seen VF-25s enter the city from the Macross Quarter's dock.

And it wasn't ADR duties most of the time, and certainly not SDFM Defender ADR duties until the very end, which contrary to its designation where mostly in space, as second tier SDR, if the letters are to mean "Air" and "Space".

Both of its Macross Chronicle mechanic sheets are very precise that its main use was/is anti-air defense... though combat against flying targets inside of the islands is also lumped into "air defense". The movie sheet goes farther to say it was also rendered basically useless by the high mobility evidenced by the Vajra (or late-gen VFs) and was only really useful for throwing up walls of fire to narrow the enemy's line of advance.

My point exactly. Regults were deployed without even Gnerl support in DYRL. The net result is most Regults dying in the first exchange of shots between them and VF-1A, while Gnerl had a somewhat better survival ratio on SDFM. But OK, I was talking about movies and series, and you are including the games that somewhat followed DYRL doctrine that Gnerls were too dull to even have a cameo.

I'm including every in-continuity appearance of the Zentradi thus far... but I feel I haven't communicated effectively.

Specifically, you seem to be laboring under the misconception that the Gnerl (AKA "Air Battle Pod") was the Zentradi Army's main "fighter" and that there was some circumstance that saw that role adopted by the Regult. The official publications make it quite clear that is not the case... and are quite clear about the Regult having been the Zentradi Army's main all-regime mecha going back to before the fall of the Protoculture's Stellar Republic. The Gnerl is described as being a supplemental craft that compensates for the Regults and Glaugs being unremarkable performers in atmospheric flight. On the ground or out in space, the Regult dominates the Zentradi inventory.

There's no reason to deploy "Gnerl support" in space beyond slightly added to the numerical advantage, because it's a vacuum, where aerodynamics matter not one bit and the limbs of the battle pods offer significant advantages for maneuvering and combat.

...however, strangely enough, they seem fine sending hundreds of Destroid pilots to certain deaths. I fail to see the logic here.

You're right about one thing... sending in the destroids is illogical as hell on the battlefields of Macross. They were a concept based on a rather fundamental misconception about the nature of warfare before first contact in 2009.

At best, you could attribute the drubbing the Cheyenne IIs got to the New UN Spacy Marine garrison force almost certainly being a federal unit like those troops stationed on Gallia IV, and those destroids being the local scrubs of the Al Shahal NUNS.

However you look at it, destroid *duty* needs a better mecha.

Undeniably... and there are so many options that the choice to employ the Cheyenne II makes zero sense.

I am suspecting the whole thing about Destroids wiped in Delta #1 is another case of bad writing causing a lot of unexplained deaths for the shake of drama.

Oh, it's undeniably bad writing... mainly because, unlike the Macross Frontier fleet, there is absolutely no practical reason for Al Shahal to own a Cheyenne II series destroid, let alone a battery or more of 'em.

They were a thing on the Frontier fleet because SMS needed mobile AA guns for their borrowed Macross Quarter-class ship and because the fleet wanted something that could operate safely inside the domes without messing up their pavement. None of the other Brisingr Alliance member worlds seem to use those destroids. The pavement on Al Shahal seems to be stressed to handle a jumping dancing Workroid based off the same platform, while laden with cargo, so they almost certainly aren't constrained by pavement damage worries...

The Spacy Marines have never been a featured corps in Macross media outside of the Zentradi (so far).

Animation, yes... media, no.

Variable Fighter Aero Report in This is Animation Special: Macross Plus has paintjobs and brief histories of several Spacy Marine VF squadrons, and a couple more are mentioned and shown in various Variable Fighter Master File volumes and Tenjin's "Valkyries" art books.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Zinjo]

You gotta remember that a VF's armor is some seriously tough stuff... calling armor "sub-par compared to VFs" covers a MASSIVE range of armor strength once you're looking at 4th Generation or later VFs.

Just as an example, if we were to assume the Cheyenne II had armor equivalent to 1/2 the battroid-mode defensive ability of a VF-171, that doesn't sound as impressive as it is. Half a VF-171's armor strength is a 33% improvement over the 1st and 2nd Generation VFs and the Tomahawk destroid. About 2-3 times the armor strength of the VF-25 is in full blown cruiser-level battleship armor territory.

(Also, it's "Al Shahal" with a shah- sound, from the katakana. I don't speak any Arabic, so I'll confess I have no idea what the significance is. Were you mentally connecting it to the abbreviation for the Israeli army?)

That's kind of an unfounded declaration in and of itself, given that the units are seldom actually seen inside the domes at all... and we only see a fraction of the ~30 islands in the Macross Frontier.

(Island-15 "Reno" doesn't count, since most of the VFs kept there are owned by civilians.)

It's also not even clear how many of the few Cheyenne IIs seen inside Island-1 are New UN Forces-owned, as SMS has their own complement of 'em.

EDIT: It's also quite possible that there are no Cheyenne IIs stationed inside the domes under normal circumstances either... and that they sortie out from the Battle Frontier when an alert is called, the same way we've seen VF-25s enter the city from the Macross Quarter's dock.

Both of its Macross Chronicle mechanic sheets are very precise that its main use was/is anti-air defense... though combat against flying targets inside of the islands is also lumped into "air defense". The movie sheet goes farther to say it was also rendered basically useless by the high mobility evidenced by the Vajra (or late-gen VFs) and was only really useful for throwing up walls of fire to narrow the enemy's line of advance.

I'm including every in-continuity appearance of the Zentradi thus far... but I feel I haven't communicated effectively.

Specifically, you seem to be laboring under the misconception that the Gnerl (AKA "Air Battle Pod") was the Zentradi Army's main "fighter" and that there was some circumstance that saw that role adopted by the Regult. The official publications make it quite clear that is not the case... and are quite clear about the Regult having been the Zentradi Army's main all-regime mecha going back to before the fall of the Protoculture's Stellar Republic. The Gnerl is described as being a supplemental craft that compensates for the Regults and Glaugs being unremarkable performers in atmospheric flight. On the ground or out in space, the Regult dominates the Zentradi inventory.

There's no reason to deploy "Gnerl support" in space beyond slightly added to the numerical advantage, because it's a vacuum, where aerodynamics matter not one bit and the limbs of the battle pods offer significant advantages for maneuvering and combat.

You're right about one thing... sending in the destroids is illogical as hell on the battlefields of Macross. They were a concept based on a rather fundamental misconception about the nature of warfare before first contact in 2009.

At best, you could attribute the drubbing the Cheyenne IIs got to the New UN Spacy Marine garrison force almost certainly being a federal unit like those troops stationed on Gallia IV, and those destroids being the local scrubs of the Al Shahal NUNS.

Undeniably... and there are so many options that the choice to employ the Cheyenne II makes zero sense.

Oh, it's undeniably bad writing... mainly because, unlike the Macross Frontier fleet, there is absolutely no practical reason for Al Shahal to own a Cheyenne II series destroid, let alone a battery or more of 'em.

They were a thing on the Frontier fleet because SMS needed mobile AA guns for their borrowed Macross Quarter-class ship and because the fleet wanted something that could operate safely inside the domes without messing up their pavement. None of the other Brisingr Alliance member worlds seem to use those destroids. The pavement on Al Shahal seems to be stressed to handle a jumping dancing Workroid based off the same platform, while laden with cargo, so they almost certainly aren't constrained by pavement damage worries...

Animation, yes... media, no.

Variable Fighter Aero Report in This is Animation Special: Macross Plus has paintjobs and brief histories of several Spacy Marine VF squadrons, and a couple more are mentioned and shown in various Variable Fighter Master File volumes and Tenjin's "Valkyries" art books.

The whole discussion regarding the VF armor strength is where this breaks down for me. If the damn valks are so strong, how is it that they can be damaged with mere projectiles and missiles at all? You have these uber strong aircraft almost super aircraft that somehow are able to be damaged. THAT is where the bad writing is as far as I am concerned. Where is the peril? Where is risk? Why should we care if there is little risk to our heroes? Frontier presented this risk so much better than Delta has with adversaries far superior to our heroes' equipment AND they were adaptive.

I feel that is where one of the principal frustrations come from. When the Windies own Xaos it turns out they are better flyers and fighter pilots and the fact that the aircraft are uber, makes the dog fights a visual dance and not really a fight with consequences. I suspect they tried to present some peril by having the Windies being better pilots than the heroes, but the nullifying effect of uber aircraft muted the danger all together. To counter this, a "fold resonance" field has to be invented to create an artificial advantage.

Cheyenne destroids "should" be a useful part of an arsenal. They aren't the hero units, but certainly should have some role in the combined assets of any force and more than mere AA. As already pointed out, the PC felt the Zentradi needed ground attack units, so then there must have been a reason.

This penchant for making each generation of fighter superior beyond any reasonable margin is an escalation that cannot be sustained in any dramatic sense. This further supports Seto's comparison between Kawamori and Roddenberry.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Zinjo

[Aries Turner]

Were you mentally connecting it to the abbreviation for the Israeli army?

I'm afraid yes.

That's kind of an unfounded declaration in and of itself, given that the units are seldom actually seen inside the domes at all

That's funny, because I recall most of its appearances inside domes, except for Macross Attack and final battle. But surely it is me who is mistaken.

In the course of this somewhat pointless (but insightful) discussion, I noticed no fixed weapon placements would do any good inside domes, as city blocks would create countless blind spots. A mobile weapon platform is needed. While I would find heavy EX-Gears quite interesting (MOSPEADA without the silliness), it is undeniable no one would turn, jump or dash as fast as Ozma's finest. Those Cygnus drones seem quite useful for interior dome defense and police duty, however.