Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[Seto Kaiba]

The holosuits may only have a set number of pre-programmed outfits loaded into the memory.

Xaos/Walkure doesn't seem bright enough to come up with the idea of using the holosuits as Predator style active camoflage.

The part that bothers me the most about Walkure's holosuits is that we know for a fact from multiple Macross titles that these holographic projectors have no problem creating a costume projection over anything the operator happens to be wearing. We know it can conceal anything the wearer happens to have on, and the projector is more than capable of providing the illusion of bare skin without any actual exposed flesh. Sheryl's holosuit looked like a wetsuit, and Mina didn't even bother with one... so there wasn't a practical reason for the Walkure-issue holosuits to be underwear and a transparent body stocking.

Considering that Walkure is a frontline combat unit, shouldn't they be wearing something that offers a little more protection like... y'know... body armor? They seemed to be wearing more protection in the flashback episode, so why'd that go away? It seemed especially stupid once the Aerial Knights revealed they could jam the multidrones and thus deprive Walkure of all defense.

(I mean, I know that fanservice is basically what Mikumo, Makina, and Reina were relying on instead of characterization... but it's kind of lame.)

[Master Dex]

The part that bothers me the most about Walkure's holosuits is that we know for a fact from multiple Macross titles that these holographic projectors have no problem creating a costume projection over anything the operator happens to be wearing. We know it can conceal anything the wearer happens to have on, and the projector is more than capable of providing the illusion of bare skin without any actual exposed flesh. Sheryl's holosuit looked like a wetsuit, and Mina didn't even bother with one... so there wasn't a practical reason for the Walkure-issue holosuits to be underwear and a transparent body stocking.

Considering that Walkure is a frontline combat unit, shouldn't they be wearing something that offers a little more protection like... y'know... body armor? They seemed to be wearing more protection in the flashback episode, so why'd that go away? It seemed especially stupid once the Aerial Knights revealed they could jam the multidrones and thus deprive Walkure of all defense.

(I mean, I know that fanservice is basically what Mikumo, Makina, and Reina were relying on instead of characterization... but it's kind of lame.)

That bugs me too, because Frontier skated back and forth on it. Sheryl had the wetsuit style holosuit in the beginning, but later on and in the movies the holographic outfits just formed over real clothes like you said and it always bugged me. Internal consistency is not that hard but they don't seem to want to go with it.

Maybe projecting outfits over real clothes requires external projectors (and an on-file body mapping of the person in order to project things... correctly), but the suits can project directly and are more mobile? Doesn't really explain why Sheryl needed one in the Frontier show though as she was on stage. In the movie version it seemed she was wearing a real outfit more than a holosuit as well (her cowgirl outfit may have been the real one there since she continued in it during the attack, with the universal bunny outfits just having been projected on that beforehand... that or the suit's holographics are really sturdy).

[trojan_gambit]

Looks like the Sound module is one of the optional container.

But then the Sieggies will lost the main weapon, i.e the Gunpod.

[JB0]

Considering that Walkure is a frontline combat unit, shouldn't they be wearing something that offers a little more protection like... y'know... body armor? They seemed to be wearing more protection in the flashback episode, so why'd that go away? It seemed especially stupid once the Aerial Knights revealed they could jam the multidrones and thus deprive Walkure of all defense.

(I mean, I know that fanservice is basically what Mikumo, Makina, and Reina were relying on instead of characterization... but it's kind of lame.)

Honestly, it seems like Walkure is doing it to maximize their effectiveness. They basically said the point where they stopped wearing the body armor and started wearing Makina's handmade idol costumes coincided with a sharp spike in their effectiveness, so apparently they couldn't get in the right frame of mind or couldn't nail the dance moves right in the relatively bulky protective suit, and it was to the detriment of their song energy output.

While the show's had a lot of logical flaws, in this specific case, it makes sense to me.

That said, they still haven't really dealt with Reina's disappearing spacesuit in the first episode. It seems they'd like us to believe the holographic outfits were simply hiding it(like the Windemere pilots and their helmets), but that doesn't seem to line up with the skinsuit armor or the upskirt rockets.

...

I suppose it is possible Walkure has a custom tear-away space suit, but that seems like an exceptionally poor idea.

[Aries Turner]

If point defense shields have miniaturized enough for those to be placed inside flying drones, a wearable version is to be expected also. Thus, an alternative explanation appears for Reina: she was already in her dance costume, which shows daring overconfidence in energy force fields alone taking all the protective functions of a spacesuit. I would be scared to death in space in one of those.

[Edit]: 'Why then would Reina project a fake spacesuit in the cockpit?' Psychological reasons: even a mercenary like Chuck would feel scared to death being responsible of the life of a civilian with no other protection against vacuum than technomagic.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

Looks like the Sound module is one of the optional container.

But then the Sieggies will lost the main weapon, i.e the Gunpod.

macross_32_cs1w1_1000x480.jpg

I can't screencap it right now, but if you look at the underside of the VF-31s when they're deploying those speaker pods on the Aether's catapult deck you can see the gun pod has apparently been placed on a ventral mount like the majority of other Valkyries use.

That bugs me too, because Frontier skated back and forth on it. Sheryl had the wetsuit style holosuit in the beginning, but later on and in the movies the holographic outfits just formed over real clothes like you said and it always bugged me. Internal consistency is not that hard but they don't seem to want to go with it.

Projecting over whatever the user happens to be wearing goes all the way back to DYRL?, and in a mobile form in Macross II: Lovers Again. I'd assume the reason for the holosuit was probably something that wouldn't shift around under the hologram and was easy to move in... or possibly something to keep her cool or wick away sweat, since stage lights are inclined to heat the stage up considerably.

Honestly, it seems like Walkure is doing it to maximize their effectiveness.

'bit of a lost cause then, isn't it? It was established way back in Episode 5 or so that Walkure only has two members who can get the job done: Freyja and Mikumo. Everyone else is too weak to contest Heinz or stop the Var without a fold wave amplifier.

They basically said the point where they stopped wearing the body armor and started wearing Makina's handmade idol costumes coincided with a sharp spike in their effectiveness, so apparently they couldn't get in the right frame of mind or couldn't nail the dance moves right in the relatively bulky protective suit, and it was to the detriment of their song energy output.

Somehow, I have to think that's confirmation bias on their part... their jump in effectiveness coincided with the addition of Mikumo to the group (AKA "the one who actually has ability") and some small growth in professionalism on the part of squad "Broken Bird" Kaname before being kicked out of the lead role in favor of Mikumo.

It seems incredibly reckless for Xaos to have ditched proper body armor in an essentially-irreplaceable unit for cling wrap that offers zero protection and makes them look like hookers from a nuru massage parlor. There's no denying Macross Delta is a poorly thought-out mess and Xaos's administration likely couldn't empty water from a boot if IKEA instructions were printed on the heel, but it's flat amazing Walkure isn't in the ICU 24/7.

That said, they still haven't really dealt with Reina's disappearing spacesuit in the first episode. It seems they'd like us to believe the holographic outfits were simply hiding it(like the Windemere pilots and their helmets), but that doesn't seem to line up with the skinsuit armor or the upskirt rockets.

That seems like kind of a glaring contradiction right there... that they can't do the job wearing a holographically-concealed suit of body armor, but there's no difficulty doing it in a military-grade mechanical compression pilot suit complete with breathing mixture tanks, connection points for EX-Gear, and an inbuilt set of verniers?

If point defense shields have miniaturized enough for those to be placed inside flying drones, a wearable version is to be expected also. Thus, an alternative explanation appears for Reina: she was already in her dance costume, which shows daring overconfidence in energy force fields alone taking all the protective functions of a spacesuit. I would be scared to death in space in one of those.

Those multidrones are far from small... given the visual cues available, they look to have a 1.5-2m wingspan when unfolded, and they probably weigh quite a bit. Plus you need two or more and an external power source to generate even small barrier effects. A wearable version of the barrier technology would be, in all likelihood, weigh hundreds of pounds, require an external power source, and be every bit as easy to move in as a sandwich board made of manhole covers.

Also, just as a note, barrier technology in Macross is not an "energy force field" like your generic sci-fi shields... a barrier system produces a localized distortion in space-time that matter and energy can't pass through.

A personal barrier system, if one existed, would be a pretty poor substitute for a pilot suit... you'd still need a helmet and rebreather so you wouldn't suffocate, given that air can't pass through a barrier. You'd have a difficult time seeing, since most wavelengths of light have a hard time making it through a barrier. You'd also have the problem of being unable to touch anything without great care even if you had the ability to wrap the barrier around each finger, because the barrier has zero give to it and is essentially an immovable object relative to its projector... pressing a button would be the same as the button running into a wall at the speed your hand was moving. Without tactile feedback, you would easily wreck the controls with your barrier-covered hands in a very short span of time.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Aries Turner]

Those multidrones are far from small... given the visual cues available, they look to have a 1.5-2m wingspan when unfolded, and they probably weigh quite a bit.

When Mikumo used them to float, forming a complex pattern, those appeared smaller, but lets use that bigger figure: ScanEagles are 3m wide and weight ~20Kg. By comparison, Interceptor Body Armor weights ~15Kg. And those drones use anti-grav.

Plus you need two or more and an external power source to generate even small barrier effects. A wearable version of the barrier technology would be, in all likelihood, weigh hundreds of pounds,

Likely not, as the drones need such a power source as well, have a reasonable battery and an anti-grav device built-in.

A personal barrier system, if one existed, would be a pretty poor substitute for a pilot suit... you'd still need a helmet and rebreather so you wouldn't suffocate, given that air can't pass through a barrier.

I agree with your first sentence. But given that air can't pass through a barrier, you need it to just activate fast enough and have an air compressed cartridge somewhere to fill the void before you suffering decompression. I guess that simple diamond/tetrahedron shape wouldn't be safe to engage within a cockpit, either. Then again, maybe Reina was wearing such a mask as only protection. Or the mask and a personal field, as those aren't mutually exclusive.

You'd have a difficult time seeing, since most wavelengths of light have a hard time making it through a barrier. You'd also have the problem of being unable to touch anything without great care even if you had the ability to wrap the barrier around each finger, because the barrier has zero give to it and is essentially an immovable object relative to its projector... pressing a button would be the same as the button running into a wall at the speed your hand was moving. Without tactile feedback, you would easily wreck the controls with your barrier-covered hands in a very short span of time.

Then it is a given its nature wouldn't be as much always on as instant on. Edited September 9, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

And those drones use anti-grav.

Just because something is hovering doesn't necessarily mean it's really using anti-grav levitation... and offhand, I don't recall the show ever saying what Walkure's Cygnus multidrone plates are using to stay aloft. They have visible verniers and wings for forward flight.

For that to be an antigravity effect, that'd mark an enormous advance in GIC technology... I find it more plausible they're flying by more energy-efficient means like an ionocraft lift effect or simple raw thrust through those verniers.

Likely not, as the drones need such a power source as well, have a reasonable battery and an anti-grav device built-in.

Granted, but as we've seen in the show the battery life is aggressively short and only good for blocking two or three shots from beam machinegun-level guns or micro-missiles before needing to be recharged.

I agree with your first sentence. But given that air can't pass through a barrier, you need it to just activate fast enough and have an air compressed cartridge somewhere to fill the void before you suffering decompression. I guess that simple diamond/tetrahedron shape wouldn't be safe to engage within a cockpit, either. Then again, maybe Reina was wearing such a mask as only protection. Or the mask and a personal field, as those aren't mutually exclusive. Then it is a given its nature wouldn't be as much always on as instant on.

In this case, I think it's very safe to say the simplest explanation would be the correct one... Reina was simply wearing an ordinary pilot's suit, as the idea of a "force field" spacesuit ala Dirty Pair or the Star Trek cartoon would require ENORMOUS strides to be made in barrier technology and several other fields of research that simply aren't demonstrated in the show... and unlike those examples, would also carry so many problems that it wouldn't be an attractive alternative to a good old fashioned counterpressure suit and helmet.

[JB0]

Somehow, I have to think that's confirmation bias on their part... their jump in effectiveness coincided with the addition of Mikumo to the group (AKA "the one who actually has ability") and some small growth in professionalism on the part of squad "Broken Bird" Kaname before being kicked out of the lead role in favor of Mikumo.

Most likely, yeah.

But if they can measure song energy on a per-member basis, which we know they can, they should be able to measure the difference between protective gear and idol costumes.

Of course, a resonance effect with Mikumo would blow all their measurements out of the water and still generate a false positive.

That seems like kind of a glaring contradiction right there... that they can't do the job wearing a holographically-concealed suit of body armor, but there's no difficulty doing it in a military-grade mechanical compression pilot suit complete with breathing mixture tanks, connection points for EX-Gear, and an inbuilt set of verniers?

Honestly, here in the real world I think it is just a a mid-series retcon, and Reina's spacesuit is the fly in their ointment. I hate to say it. I really don't like calling it out, but I'm fairly sure that's what happened.

Initially they were supposed to be using holograms over proper light armor, but then they decided to fanservice it up and give them flesh-colored skinsuit armor instead.

But they can't go back and handwave the space suit away so they're gonna hope we forgot or come up with a good explanation on our own(that they can steal later).

[This Confuses Gamlin]

Their flight suits are thin enough that it wouldn't be complicated to fit the hologram generator equipment onto them and have both systems still function normally. It fits into a bra, panties, and shoes, after all.

[Nazareno2012]

Just my 2 cents, the fanservice gear of Walkure (the rocket panties, bra and transparent suit) is one of the nonsense things I don't like in Delta. Being a combat unit, Walkure should use EX-Gear with holographic projectors attached to them, it provides better protection.

[Graham]

Tech specs of VF-31A Kairos and VF-31C Siegfried from the TomyTec 1/144 scale kits.

Is that a micro-missile capacity of 36 I see?

I wonder if these specs give additional detail beyond the Bandai 1/72 kit pamphlet?

[Aries Turner]

Just because something is hovering doesn't necessarily mean it's really using anti-grav levitation... They have visible verniers and wings for forward flight.

Good point. And verniers are ridiculously powerful since Hikaru VF-1D VTOL stunt stealing Brera of the merit. Just for the record: I am not saying Reina used this. I say she may. Still, even without anti-grav, whatever those drones use to generate the shields, removing airframe, engine, comms, reaction mass for the verniers, everything essential to fly would make *two* of these things without flying gear should weight as much combined as a regular body armor. Lighter materials accounted for the two kind of devices. Battery life shouldn't be as much a concern as it is a supposed last line of defense and are not taxed by flight or coordinated flight mechanisms.

For that to be an antigravity effect, that'd mark an enormous advance in GIC technology...

Sure. As pinpoint barriers itselves at that size. Note: I agree with you here, really. I am just saying stretching too much the suspension of disbelief is something Macross is used to.

In this case, I think it's very safe to say the simplest explanation would be the correct one... Reina was simply wearing an ordinary pilot's suit

...with a rocket belt attached. The show is cheesy enough, so I agree: why not.

Using a suit is simpler, just like avoiding caseless ammunition, so convoluted that cases almost feel a solution to that. I remembered something about caseless ammo, though: just because you don't see cartridges falling doesn't mean the thing is caseless. GAU-8 takes the spent casings back into the ammunition drum, and it is the big daddy of GPUs and GUs.

Tech specs of VF-31A Kairos and VF-31C Siegfried

In the end, VF-31A is only slightly lighter and slightly more powerful than a VF-25, at 8,250Kg empty and 2x1,645KN regular FF-3001A.

Also of note: the VF-31C is assisted by an Ariel III A.I., and something about an adapted A.I. is also said about the Kairos (it is no longer VF-25S privilege), both Kairos and Siegfried have *two* Ka-Bar knives and Kairos railguns have slightly bigger bore (27mm vs 25mm, like a veiled Tornado/EF/Gripen BK27 vs F-35 GAU-22 reference).

Edited September 10, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

Tech specs of VF-31A Kairos and VF-31C Siegfried from the TomyTec 1/144 scale kits.

Ah, interesting. Mine are still penned en route thanks to a customs screwup... sometimes I hate the way FedEx can't seem to agree on one port of entry.

Is that a micro-missile capacity of 36 I see?

It is... and the launchers are apparently a variant of the same model used on the VF-25's SPS-25/MF25 Super Pack: the Bifors CIMM-3.

I wonder if these specs give additional detail beyond the Bandai 1/72 kit pamphlet?

Yep... and it paints a very interesting picture of the VF-31's relationship to other 5th Generation VFs, and the relationship between the stock VF-31 Kairos and the Xaos Valkyrie Works VF-31 Siegfried.

I think the biggest thing this clarifies is why Hayate kept getting chastised for being rough on his plane even though the maneuvers he's doing aren't that impressive compared to what we've seen in previous shows. The VF-31 Kairos is essentially a VF-25 equivalent, and Xaos Valkyrie Works heavily modified that design to increase performance above what the airframe was actually stressed for. A 14% increase in maximum instantaneous thrust, the additional output of overboost from the fold wave system, changing out the missile containers for multidrone racks, installing a new Airframe Control AI (the stock machine is using an Ariel II variant, the Siegfried uses Ariel III), and a few other things like changing the wingtips.

The stock VF-31 Kairos actually isn't a particularly impressive aircraft for a 5th Generation VF either. Its thrust to weight ratio and ISC performance are very slightly higher, but the same HMI and different versions of the same AI control system, and the VF-25 has a definite edge in carried ordinance.

Sure. As point shields itselves at that size. Note: I agree with you here, really. I am just saying stretching too much the suspension of disbelief is something Macross is used to.

The Cygnus multidrone plates being able to generate pinpoint barriers is the one major technical advancement we've seen in Macross Delta. The rest hasn't really been anything new or remarkable. Delta has done no real innovation, technologically or otherwise, so suspension of disbelief hasn't really been tested much.

...with a rocket belt attached. The show is cheesy enough, so I agree: why not.

Come to that, why would she need the rocket belt? She was wearing a flight suit with rockets built into the backpack.

Using a suit is simpler, just like avoiding caseless ammunition, so convoluted that cases almost feel a solution to that. I remembered something about caseless ammo, though: just because you don't see cartridges falling doesn't mean the thing is caseless.

Yes, I'm aware of the GAU-8/A's return mechanism... but that's not something that's ever been presented as used on Valkyrie gun pods. The high caliber of their ammo, combined with the need to keep the gun pod streamlined, left the choice between ejecting spent shell casings or using caseless ammo. The vast majority of gun pods went in for the former, and stealth gun pods opted for the latter.

Now that there are beam gun pods in common use, the question is academic from the mid-2060's on.

[Saruta]

Could anyone point me to episode/time where Reina is wearing that space suit?

From what I read here, my hypothesis would be that Reina could intentionally refuse the new fanservice gear because she is shy, keeping her older suit. But I'd need to watch to check this idea.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Saruta

[Seto Kaiba]

Could anyone point me to episode/time where Reina is wearing that space suit?

Episode 1... Reina is introduced riding in the back seat of Chuck's VF-31E, and when Walkure starts their performance she jumps from the cockpit still wearing the suit.

[Saruta]

Yeah, does seem like an inconsistency. I could not spot any difference between Reina and the others in that sequence, so the "they are wearing skintight suits, except Reina" hypothesis does not seem to fly.

[Aries Turner]

Come to that, why would she need the rocket belt? She was wearing a flight suit with rockets built into the backpack.

Exactly. Why? Choose any cheese plot device.

Yes, I'm aware of the GAU-8/A's return mechanism... but that's not something that's ever been presented as used on Valkyrie gun pods. The high caliber of their ammo, combined with the need to keep the gun pod streamlined, left the choice between ejecting spent shell casings or using caseless ammo ... The vast majority of gun pods went in for the former, and stealth gun pods opted for the latter.

Why? Spent munition is actually smaller in volume than unspent one. In fact, GPU-5/A (using a GAU-8 derived four barrel GAU-13) spent cases went back to the feed system, rolled around the barrels in the forward portion of the pod. I don't know the internals of a GU-11, but I suppose it had a similar mechanism. Then again, it those pods are explicitly stated as caseless, I have nothing more to add. But if those aren't, those aren't. I however agree that even if used anywhere other than Hikaru's rifle, the caseless time window is gone. Edited September 11, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't know the internals of a GU-11, but I suppose it had a similar mechanism. Then again, it those pods are explicitly stated as caseless, I have nothing more to add. But if those aren't, those aren't. I however agree that even if used anywhere other than Hikaru's rifle, the caseless time window is gone.

The GU-11 had a helical magazine around the barrels (though separated from the barrels by the cooling system)... but the GU-11 didn't return spent casings to the magazine. It ejected them.

To the best of my knowledge, Macross has never had a gunpod identified as returning spent cases to the magazine. The vast majority of gunpods in the Macross metaseries eject spent cases. Caseless ammunition is something General Galaxy seems to have developed a liking for "stealth gunpods" used on their 3rd and 4th Generation designs. The YF-21/VF-22 gunpod (GV-17L) was the first in production terms to be identified as using caseless ammo, though the VF-17's MC-17A is another example... and it's a safe bet the Fz-109's gunpods are as well (identical setup to the VF-17, no external ejector port), and the VF-171's are derivative of the VF-17's.

The GU-XS-06 used by the VF-11's Protect Armor Pack is the one odd bird... it has no obvious ejection port, and we know next to nothing about it except the ammo it uses is incredibly high-powered.

[Seto Kaiba]

Looking back over the specs for the base model Surya Aerospace VF-31 Kairos, I have to say I'm forced to admit I wasn't entirely sure what I was expecting.

I'll admit to being mildly annoyed at how, even in the description of the mass production VF-31 variant, the Macross Delta series all but forgot about the New UN Forces. Apart from mentioning the VF-31 is a production model based on the YF-30 developed by a partnership of Shinsei, LAI, and two new companies named Hiotori and Bharat it says nothing about the development of the VF-31 or its intended customer.

The VF-31 Siegfried kind of gave us all a false impression of the abilities of the VF-31. I wasn't particularly happy with the "super prototype" YF-29 in the Frontier movies, but I gave it a pass as a fighter that was built to do one job and was too expensive to be produced in numbers. I gave the YF-30 that same pass since it was a technology demonstrator built by a company that had a budget so vast it bankrolled an entire emigrant fleet to pursue some obsession its owner had. It seems a bit... unfeasible... for a company like Xaos that is so cash-strapped it can barely afford to keep its ships fueled once its forces get run out of Brisingr by the Aerial Knights to be able to afford five custom VFs with fold wave systems. It makes more sense that the Aerial Knights would spring for higher quality fighters, since the Windermere Kingdom is massively outnumbered and have to make up the disparity elsewhere.

All told, the stock VF-31's not a particularly remarkable fighter. It's almost what you'd expect from an intermediate block VF-25. It's a little bigger and a little lighter than the Shinsei/LAI VF-25, but it's using the same engine with some minor incremental improvement in performance (just +25kN), its control AI is an upgraded Ariel II package, its HMI is the same model of EX-Gear used by the NUNS and SMS for the last ten years, it's using a variant of the same ISC system with minimal performance improvement (+0.5G capacity), it's coaxial gun is the same ROV-127 12.7mm beam machinegun, it's using an upgraded version of the same anti-armor knife, and its missile launchers are the same type used in the SPS-25 Super Pack. In so many ways, it feels like the VF-31 Kairos was an "ala carte" design made by picking existing systems wherever possible to keep costs down. (You could almost mistake it for that delta wing VF-25 that the VF-1 Riders did... the VF-25 Messiah Legacy.)

Its only real standout features are in its guns... replacing a conventional rotary cannon with a heavy quantum beam rifle, and adopting railguns as the replacement for what would ordinarily be a beam machine gun or high-powered machine gun with HEACA ammo. They're neglecting the ordinance container and treating it like a glorified gunpod holster. With the two leg bays and four pylons on top of its 36 internal micro-missiles, it's only about on par with the VF-25 for missile capacity... given the VF-25's 8 pylons.

The one question I'm left with is, when Xaos Valkyrie Works was upgrading the VF-31 Kairos to make the Siegfried, did they uparmor it as well the way that SMS Frontier did to the YF-29's carryover VF-25 parts? The YF-29's defensive ability was increased to 400% of the original spec for the VF-25 parts used, but it looks like the VF-31 Siegfried is using the exact same energy conversion armor as the stock model. Did Xaos cheap out on defense? Did Messer snuff it because Lady M was too cheap to pay for improved armor on her already pricey showpieces?

[Sandman]

So do we know who sponsored the development of the 31?. It seems like it ws xaos instead of an emigrant fleet/government. I didn't know that was possible. Would sms sell the specs to a potential rival pmc? Would nuns sell to mercenaries?

[Seto Kaiba]

So do we know who sponsored the development of the 31?.

It's a little hard to read the pictures because of the glare, and the description seems like it's mostly focused on the VF-31 being a 5th Generation VF and derivative of the YF-30.

All things considered, I'd expect it to be something developed for the Brisingr Alliance NUNS as their replacement for their aging fleet of VF-171 Nightmare Pluses. In Variable Fighter Master File: VF-4 Lightning III there's a VF-31 Kairos in NUNS livery circa 2067, which would tend to support that view. There's also mention of a VF-30, which would seem to suggest the Kairos isn't the first local 5th Gen VF developed from the Chronos either.

It seems like it ws xaos instead of an emigrant fleet/government. I didn't know that was possible. Would sms sell the specs to a potential rival pmc? Would nuns sell to mercenaries?

As far as we know, Xaos is just buying them from Surya Aerospace and has opted to make them their official main fighter.

SMS Uroboros developed the YF-30 Chronos with the collaboration of Shinsei Industry, LAI, and the Uroboros AWDAP station... and they would've had to disclose the spec to the New UN Gov't under galaxy law eventually. Shinsei and LAI probably had an agreement with SMS that they'd be allowed to exploit the design to their own ends without the proprietary SMS hardware when they collaborated with Major Blanchett on Uroboros.

[JB0]

Come to that, why would she need the rocket belt? She was wearing a flight suit with rockets built into the backpack.

That's actually something that makes sense even though it seems not to. The skirt rockets are designed for lift and rapid acceleration in a high-G environment, which generates a design profile pretty much directly opposed to what you would want in an EVA pack(primary thrust vector being down the legs instead of out from the back, and MUCH higher impulse).

[Vernon]

Looking back over the specs for the base model Surya Aerospace VF-31 Kairos, I have to say I'm forced to admit I wasn't entirely sure what I was expecting.

I'll admit to being mildly annoyed at how, even in the description of the mass production VF-31 variant, the Macross Delta series all but forgot about the New UN Forces. Apart from mentioning the VF-31 is a production model based on the YF-30 developed by a partnership of Shinsei, LAI, and two new companies named Hiotori and Bharat it says nothing about the development of the VF-31 or its intended customer.

The VF-31 Siegfried kind of gave us all a false impression of the abilities of the VF-31. I wasn't particularly happy with the "super prototype" YF-29 in the Frontier movies, but I gave it a pass as a fighter that was built to do one job and was too expensive to be produced in numbers. I gave the YF-30 that same pass since it was a technology demonstrator built by a company that had a budget so vast it bankrolled an entire emigrant fleet to pursue some obsession its owner had. It seems a bit... unfeasible... for a company like Xaos that is so cash-strapped it can barely afford to keep its ships fueled once its forces get run out of Brisingr by the Aerial Knights to be able to afford five custom VFs with fold wave systems. It makes more sense that the Aerial Knights would spring for higher quality fighters, since the Windermere Kingdom is massively outnumbered and have to make up the disparity elsewhere.

All told, the stock VF-31's not a particularly remarkable fighter. It's almost what you'd expect from an intermediate block VF-25. It's a little bigger and a little lighter than the Shinsei/LAI VF-25, but it's using the same engine with some minor incremental improvement in performance (just +25kN), its control AI is an upgraded Ariel II package, its HMI is the same model of EX-Gear used by the NUNS and SMS for the last ten years, it's using a variant of the same ISC system with minimal performance improvement (+0.5G capacity), it's coaxial gun is the same ROV-127 12.7mm beam machinegun, it's using an upgraded version of the same anti-armor knife, and its missile launchers are the same type used in the SPS-25 Super Pack. In so many ways, it feels like the VF-31 Kairos was an "ala carte" design made by picking existing systems wherever possible to keep costs down. (You could almost mistake it for that delta wing VF-25 that the VF-1 Riders did... the VF-25 Messiah Legacy.)

Its only real standout features are in its guns... replacing a conventional rotary cannon with a heavy quantum beam rifle, and adopting railguns as the replacement for what would ordinarily be a beam machine gun or high-powered machine gun with HEACA ammo. They're neglecting the ordinance container and treating it like a glorified gunpod holster. With the two leg bays and four pylons on top of its 36 internal micro-missiles, it's only about on par with the VF-25 for missile capacity... given the VF-25's 8 pylons.

The one question I'm left with is, when Xaos Valkyrie Works was upgrading the VF-31 Kairos to make the Siegfried, did they uparmor it as well the way that SMS Frontier did to the YF-29's carryover VF-25 parts? The YF-29's defensive ability was increased to 400% of the original spec for the VF-25 parts used, but it looks like the VF-31 Siegfried is using the exact same energy conversion armor as the stock model. Did Xaos cheap out on defense? Did Messer snuff it because Lady M was too cheap to pay for improved armor on her already pricey showpieces?

As of now Seto,i assume which is why Xaos need to detune the FF-3001/FC2 on the Siegfried because the VF-31 airframe is not compatible for the engine original spec?

[Master Dex]

As of now Seto,i assume which is why Xaos need to detune the FF-3001/FC2 on the Siegfried because the VF-31 airframe is not compatible for the engine original spec?

That actually makes a lot of sense. The Kairos uses the VF-25s engine, so it stands to reasons that when they decided to put the much more powerful engine the Chronos used in the Seigfrieds, they needed to lower the output for safety reasons if nothing else.

It sounds like to me the traditional view of the higher the VF number the more advanced has been thoroughly debunked by the 5th generation VFs. From 24 to 31 all the main line fighters are basically on par (with exception of the 27 which is meant for cyborgs mostly), and a few stand out specialized prototypes/demonstrators that are not being mass produced as is. Plus the fact that the Federal spec on the YF/VF-24 is likely really nuts just tells us that we shouldn't expect a VF to be more powerful now just because it has a higher number. Really no one should, as the numbers are just a sequential production number indicating when it was produced.

[Aries Turner]

One thing I cringed about the VF-25 Ka-Bar is that even Frontier showed us those are worthless. VF-11 bayonet? totally makes sense. But VF-171 onward have pinpoint barriers, as shown when a VF-171 powerpunched a Vajra. Or Macross Quarter using one as cutting tip on not-exactly-too-sharp prow of its Buster Cannon Gunship.

And now the VF-31/A/B/C/E/F/J/S carry double the dead-weight. Pointless (all pun intended).

[Nazareno2012]

One thing I cringed about the VF-25 Ka-Bar is that even Frontier showed us those are worthless. VF-11 bayonet? totally makes sense. But VF-171 onward have pinpoint barriers, as shown when a VF-171 powerpunched a Vajra. Or Macross Quarter using one as cutting tip on not-exactly-too-sharp prow of its Buster Cannon Gunship.

And now the VF-31/A/B/C/E/F/J/S carry double the dead-weight. Pointless (all pun intended).

You have a point, but as the tip of a blade has a smaller area than the fist of the VF, then the force exerted when thrusting the blade will be more concentrated than punching with a fist, which will need more energy in the punch to produce the same effect as the blade.

[Aries Turner]

You have a point, but as the tip of a blade has a smaller area than the fist of the VF, then the force exerted when thrusting the blade will be more concentrated than punching with a fist, which will need more energy in the punch to produce the same effect as the blade.

Physics 101 here, yeah, but we are talking about a last resort weapon. You can achieve almost the same effect with already somewhat sharp fingertips, Patlabor's type-00 style, with none of the extra weight and a slight increase in power to weight ratio to attempt to break the engagement if you are hopelessly outmatched (as usual when resorting to melee weapons by lack of ammo). Using pinpoint barrier to reinforce the tip of a metal big knife or the fingertips of a metallic ASWAG open hand should we about equally effective. Edited September 11, 2016 by Aries Turner

[aurance]

Using pinpoint barrier to reinforce the tip of a metal big knife or the fingertips of a metallic ASWAG open hand should we about equally effective.

Why? I don't think we've seen proof of this.

[Aries Turner]

Why? I don't think we've seen proof of this.

Quarter using the very blunt, no sharpened in any way, prow of its Gunship to open a Vajra ship like if it were a sharpened sword, which obviously is not. One could even assume it was the pinpoint barrier itself the thing that acted like a makeshift blade or serrated spear point.

Even SV-51 hands being used *without* any kind of protection to penetrate and open a reinforced hangar door in Zero.

A trench tool is also never an axe, but if serrated enough, if balanced carefully, could still achieve almost indistinguishable effect without being a dedicated, one purpose only, piece of hardware.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Aries Turner

[aurance]

Quarter using the very blunt, no sharpened in any way, prow of its Gunship to open a Vajra ship like if it were a sharpened sword, which obviously is not. One could even assume it was the pinpoint barrier itself the thing that acted like a makeshift blade or serrated spear point.

Even SV-51 hands being used *without* any kind of protection to penetrate and open a reinforced hangar door in Zero.

A trench tool is also never an axe, but if serrated enough, if balanced carefully, could still achieve almost indistinguishable effect without being a dedicated, one purpose only, piece of hardware.

I don't think that's necessarily proof that those pinpoint-enhanced attacks are of equal efficacy as a knife pinpoint-enhanced attack. I mean in-universe there must be some sort of advantage, otherwise they wouldn't be a part of military hardware.

[Seto Kaiba]

As of now Seto,i assume which is why Xaos need to detune the FF-3001/FC2 on the Siegfried because the VF-31 airframe is not compatible for the engine original spec?

Almost certainly.

The FF-3001/FC2 Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engine has a maximum instantaneous thrust rating almost 30% higher than the FF-3001A variant that was installed in the stock VF-31 Kairos. Even without having to make several adjustments to account for differences in the aircraft design, they'd likely need to detune the engine to prevent its normal maximum operating power from damaging the plane. Who knows what a full-power FF-3001/FC2 engine can do if hooked up to a properly functioning fold dimensional resonance system? Those engines are rated for 2,110kN unassisted... if the FDR system produces a 30% improvement in power they're pushing 2,750kN actual maximum power.

It sounds like to me the traditional view of the higher the VF number the more advanced has been thoroughly debunked by the 5th generation VFs. From 24 to 31 all the main line fighters are basically on par (with exception of the 27 which is meant for cyborgs mostly), and a few stand out specialized prototypes/demonstrators that are not being mass produced as is. Plus the fact that the Federal spec on the YF/VF-24 is likely really nuts just tells us that we shouldn't expect a VF to be more powerful now just because it has a higher number. Really no one should, as the numbers are just a sequential production number indicating when it was produced.

To be fair, that was always true... it just wasn't this obvious before because we seldom saw more than two fighter designs from the same generation operating side by side. Usually the UN Spacy forces in any one locale only used one type of main fighter, which made it hard to compare. There were also a few cases of fighters upgraded to a ".5" Generation that muddied the waters a bit, like the VF-17 Nightmare which made that jump when its D variant and beyond were fitted with thermonuclear reaction burst turbines.

Now that the New UN Forces have become as decentralized as the New UN Gov't, the number of new main fighters from the same generation has gone up quite a lot. Not counting local variants, the 5th Generation Main VF title is shared locally by at least five or six fighters we know about: the VF-24 which both Earth and the Federal New UN Forces use, the VF-25 developed by Frontier for itself and its allies, Galaxy's VF-27, Uroboros' VF-30 mentioned in Variable Fighter Master File, the Brisingr Alliance's VF-31, and the Sv-262 which the Windermere Kingdom uses. That's not counting units in trial and/or unofficial production like the YF-29.

You have a point, but as the tip of a blade has a smaller area than the fist of the VF, then the force exerted when thrusting the blade will be more concentrated than punching with a fist, which will need more energy in the punch to produce the same effect as the blade.

Physics 101 here, yeah, but we are talking about a last resort weapon. You can achieve almost the same effect with already somewhat sharp fingertips, Patlabor's type-00 style, with none of the extra weight and a slight increase in power to weight ratio to attempt to break the engagement if you are hopelessly outmatched (as usual when resorting to melee weapons by lack of ammo). Using pinpoint barrier to reinforce the tip of a metal big knife or the fingertips of a metallic ASWAG open hand should we about equally effective.

Why? I don't think we've seen proof of this.

All told, the knife probably isn't a particularly useful piece of equipment... except in situations where precision counts for more than sheer destruction.

The VF-27's blade-below-the-elbow was probably a more useful weapon, since it didn't depend on the manipulators.

With the pinpoint barrier in the way, there really isn't a lot of appreciable difference between the knife and hand except surface area... either way, what you're doing is using an immovable spatial distortion to smash your way past armor. It's less like cutting and more like breaking something open using a wedge and mallet. Given what we saw the SMS Macross Quarter do in Macross Frontier, I have to wonder why they haven't gone to just using a barrier itself as the blade. It'd make a lot more sense, since that too isn't really dependent on the manipulator, and you could adjust the size and position of that blade to suit your personal tastes and you could deploy it instantly.

[Aries Turner]

I don't think that's necessarily proof that those pinpoint-enhanced attacks are of equal efficacy as a knife pinpoint-enhanced attack. I mean in-universe there must be some sort of advantage, otherwise they wouldn't be a part of military hardware.

Those will never be of equal efficacy. The point is, could yo do without with at least 90% of the efficiency? If yes, the thing is superfluous. The undeniable fact we see those being issued would point instead to some vulnerability of modern VF construction, like aggressive weight reduction compromising structural integrity but compensating with active protection systems... that if switched off, a well placed slingshot could potentially cause irreparable damage. Long story short: what SV-51 and VF-171 hands achieved, VF-25 and VF-31 hands are so frail to achieve without a reinforced piece of steel.

Also, Quarter risking damaging the business end of its cannon, where any deformation could result in self-destructive miss-fire, appeared reckless. But if not, if that kind of maneuver is nothing out of the ordinary, VF-31 could do the same thing using its railguns to impale opponents. Instead, it is issued not one, but two Ka-Bars. I am starting to suspect VFs are becoming origami transformable planes in a more literal sense.

[Edit]: Taken out wild (even for my standards) speculation. We see that for some reason, Ka-Bars are issued. One can only wonder why.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Ghostbear0]

Just creating a plane with the barier would be the most efficent way to do it since that could theoriticaly be a sub monimolecular blade. Basically they have knifes so that they don't have beam sabers.

[Graham]

Here's some clearer scans of the Tomytec tech specs.