Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[Aries Turner]

So, if I read right, although dropping somewhat structural integrity from VF-22 record 40G, the entire VF-2X family, the SV-262 and the firsts VF-3X are all in the 60G tolerance range (1) by improving active dampening systems, if piloted remotely, by cyborg or to the death. Now I see why in Delta, Battroid mode is almost forgotten: from VF-0 structural limits to Battroid mode, only a relatively small amount of energy would be lost to be able to transform. At VF-2X and VF-3X flight profiles, transforming to Battroid mode would involve losing a lot of energy very fast, deliberately.

In other words: Macross is becoming duller because of realism. And reasons. Reasons, too.

(1) By matching VF-22 structural integrity, the YF-29 reach 70G tolerance.

Edited August 27, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

So, if I read right, although dropping somewhat structural integrity from VF-22 record 40G, [...]

The bit about the VF-22 is a theory on my part... at the time the specs were written, they had not published any information about the g-damping capacity of the Quimeliquola Inertia Vector Control System borrowed from the Queadluun-Rau for the YF-21 and VF-22. It's highly probable, given the VF-22's outlandishly massive g-loading limits compared to production and heavily customized ultra-high performance one-off units from the same period, and would put the structural g-limits for the fighter much closer to other production models of the same era if that number factored in the damping effect of the fighter's inertia capacitor.

[...] the entire VF-2X family, the SV-262 and the firsts VF-3X are all in the 60G tolerance range (1) by improving active dampening systems, if piloted remotely, by cyborg or to the death.

Well, we can't speak for the entire VF design series in the 20+ range because we don't know what the spec for a potential VF-20 or VF-23 looked like. If they were Shinsei designs they wouldn't have had an inertia capacitor in that period, since that was a uniquely General Galaxy design feature initially... the result of General Galaxy having been contracted to restore the Quimeliquola AWDAP facility in Eden's orbit. It's probably safe to assume the YF-26 was in that range, since it was supposed to be a competing design from the same program that gave us the YF/VF-25 and YF/VF-27.

You gotta hand it to Shinsei for what they achieved with applying fold quartz to improving existing inertia capacitor technology... they achieved a 52% improvement in g-force displacement performance with the TO21, and then built on that strong start in later models.

Now I see why in Delta, Battroid mode is almost forgotten: from VF-0 structural limits to Battroid mode, only a relatively small amount of energy would be lost to be able to transform. At VF-2X and VF-3X flight profiles, transforming to Battroid mode would involve losing a lot of energy very fast, deliberately.

In other words: Macross is becoming duller because of realism. And reasons. Reasons, too.

(1) By matching VF-22 structural integrity, the YF-29 reach 70G tolerance.

Nah... in most fighter-mode dogfights, the pilots aren't going to encounter g-forces sufficient to actually put that kind of massive g-loads on the airframe. They're subsonic most of the time.

Barring the fold wave Var syndrome bullet time shenanigans we've seen a few times now in Macross Delta, they probably wouldn't be pushing their aircraft anywhere near hard enough to peak the performance of their inertia store converters for any length of time... except perhaps trying to brake with GERWALK mode from a low supersonic speed in the manner that seems to be the default ending of those bullet time dogfights these days.

Macross Plus and Macross Frontier had no problems showing dogfights with LOTS of transformation... Delta's just got crappy dogfight choreography. Apart from something like an Immelmann turn in episode 3, the only air combat maneuver we've seen has been excessive repetition of The Scissors.

[trojan_gambit]

Liner Notes translated by /m/ Anon

It was designed as an interceptor and for base defense and exhibits incredible climb rate, acceleration, and mobility, but the amount of internal propellant it can hold is low and its range outside of the atmosphere is limited

Is this why we saw many of the battles just abruptly ended ?

They are not rushing back for tea time ()

[azrael]

Is this why we saw many of the battles just abruptly ended ?

They are not rushing back for tea time ( )

Sadly, no. That's a story problem we can't pin on technobabble. VF engines use electricity to heat a heating element which heats the air which it uses to propel the fighter in atmosphere. Propellant is only used in space (and afterburners) since there's no air.

[Seto Kaiba]

Is this why we saw many of the battles just abruptly ended ?

They are not rushing back for tea time ( )

As azrael noted, we can't pin it on the Draken III's fuel tanks being small... because almost all of the battles so far have occurred in atmosphere.

Thermonuclear reaction turbine engines used on variable fighters are extraordinarily fuel efficient in atmospheric service because thrust is produced by heating intake air with the heat from the fusion reaction instead of venting large amounts of fusion plasma to operate as an ion thruster-augmented fusion rocket. To put it in perspective, a VF-1 Valkyrie's 1,410L of hydrogen slush fuel is good for about ten minutes of maximum thrust in space... but, in atmospheric service, that 1,410L is fuel enough for an effectively unlimited operating range and an operational endurance of something like 700 hours (29 days).

The Sv-262 Draken III's a fair bit bigger than a VF-1 Valkyrie, and even though it's losing a fair bit of fuel on the orbital approach and the subsequent return to orbit at the end of combat, the chief limiting factor in its combat endurance would be the physical limitations of the pilot like the need for rest, food, sleep, and using the bathroom.

Sadly, no. That's a story problem we can't pin on technobabble. VF engines use electricity to heat a heating element which heats the air which it uses to propel the fighter in atmosphere. Propellant is only used in space (and afterburners) since there's no air.

Not quite. The heat transfer isn't done by an electric heating element, it's heat transfer from the reactor (and/or the reactor's coolant system).

The heat from the reaction that isn't converted into electrical power in the thermoelectric "Glen effect" primary power generation system is transferred to the intake air by forced convection... transferring that heat to the intake air to produce thrust and, in the bargain, cooling the reactor.

[RedWolf]

Very rough translation of the Kurakin section, which I translated for some reason.

I'm also the anon who did the Draken text.

Alexi Kurakin

Fortunately for humanity, the leader of the VF-4 project, Alexi Kurakin, miraculously survived the interstellar war. Kurakin was the man who led the VF-4 project from start to finish, but he had once been a member of the ASS-1 survey team and later developed the SV-51 variable fighter under the Anti-Unification Alliance. However, he had been simply working under the powers in control of his motherland and not out of any political ideology.

The SV-51 was considered to possess performance equivalent to the VF-0 or better in certain conditions and greatly impacted development of the VF-1. After making the SV-51, he defected to the UN government. Under the United Nations military prior to Space War 1, Kurakin worked as a civilian engineer in the VF-1’s development, after which he became a contracted employee of Stonewell Belcom, where he suddenly was left in charge of the VF-4 project. This was of course because they recognized his ability in the creation of the SV-51 which had rivaled the VF-0 in performance.

A development division and factory for the VF-4 project were built on South Ataria, and when a section and work space were set up inside the SDF-1 Macross, Kurakin assigned his deputy chief, who could be called his right hand, to lead the section while he would work on the island. The section chief was Oleg Fedorov, who traveled with the SDF-1 in its so-called journey back to Earth.

On the day of the SDF-1 Macross’ launching ceremony and the attack on South Ataria by Britai’s fleet, Federov witnessed the activation of the SDF-1’s booby trap while attending the ceremony and immediately went to inspect his section in the ship. The SDF-1 then executed a space fold, and Federov and the other engineers who escaped no longer had the luxury to carry out their research and were tasked with maintenance, repair, and upgrading of the VF-1 squadrons. The valuable findings they gained from handling actual combat aircraft proved to be invaluable in later upgrades to the VF-1 and tactical analysis and would be passed on to the VF-4 project, needless to say.

On the day the SDF-1 folded out, Kurakin, also at the ceremony, avoided catastrophe by boarding a transport plane or helicopter escaping from the island. He was taken in by a nearby UN Navy carrier and changed his base of operations to work on the VF-4 project. He was based at the Grand Cannon in Alaska but luckily for him he was moved to the Apollo base with a test model right before the battle against the Bodol main fleet. Having survived Space War 1, he was directly commissioned by the UN Spacy to continue work on the VF-4 project. This was because the competing VF-3 Project was lost along with its staff due to the attack by the Bodol main fleet, and the survivors of the original VF-1 development team had their hands full with improving the VF-1. Federov also joined his project.

Through part of the development of the VF-4 series, Kurakin sought to achieve an airframe that surpassed the VF-1 in aerial maneuverability. To do that he even thought that transformation was unnecessary, but it wasn’t that he dismissed the idea. As evidence to that, for all models he made prototypes that could transform. He had later said, “The VF’s transformation is like a sudden mutation in the genes of an organism and if used in the right manner it could break stalemates or snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. I hoped it would serve as a catalyst in extend the conscious of a pilot." Kurakin himself had developed the SV-51 before the interstellar war and could not have anticipated the full scope of the transforming ability of the VF. He hoped that the added functionality to the fighter aircraft would create something that surpassed the expectations of its designers, and that it would be created by pilots placed in extreme situations. The fact of the matter is that there had been numerous reports of dramatic comebacks in situations where transformation was used by some skilled VF-1 pilots, and it was by reflecting those lessons learned in combat to the whole that the VF gained superiority over all else as a tactical weapon used by individuals. This is ultimately due to such possibilities and versatility being incorporated since the birth of the VF, but Kurakin’s genius was that he had implemented these uncertain factors while presenting a convincing and concrete argument to get permission for development from the military.

However there was a reason why even Kurakin had to give up on adding the transforming mechanism to the VF-4. The transforming mechanism of the VF-4 was excluded due to constraints that prevented sufficient enough time to be allocated to R&D and also because he was in agreement with the UN Spacy, which desired a fighter that would be easier to achieve flying qualifications for than the transformable VF-1 in order to get as many pilots into combat as possible. As a result, the VF-4 in all of its variations came to have specs surpassing the VF-1 and had the high evaluation of surpassing the VF-1 in operating rates and maintainability. After development of the VF-4, Kurakin did not join Shinsei Industries but created General Galaxy, and though the number of models that did end up being mass produced were few, he did create many excellent variable fighters.

Kurakin foresaw that with humanity’s sudden emergence into galactic space, it would be fighting against humanity that would escalate more than that against Zentradi. The main weapon in a war of humans versus humans would be the VF. Kurakin set up the SV design division as a special development team in General Galaxy. The SV design division worked on designs of “anti-VF VFs,” and there is talk of prototyping and limited run production, but this is of course top secret and the facts of it are unknown. There are also rumors of field testing on colony planets such those on the frontier.

As these aircraft constantly possessed maneuverability surpassing the mainstream fighters of the UN Spacy at all times, they were called VF-killers. It is also said that the SV in SV development division is Slayer of VF or Slayer of Valkyrie.

If the VFs made by Shinsei Industry are the yang, then the VFs made by General Galaxy as their yang counterparts could be said to have made great contributions to improving each other’s and all of the galaxy’s VF technology. Kurakin died in 2036, but up until then he personally led the development of a new fighter (what became the VF-9 Cutlass). And even now General Galaxy is continuing to produce VF-Killers.

Well with the VF-4 even considered not to include the transforming feature was mentioned once before. Kurakin and Federov are like the main timeline counterparts to Dr. H. Takachihoff who founded Takachihoff Company in the Macross II timeline.

Edited August 28, 2016 by RedWolf

[maczero]

As there are few episodes to finish the season,

Is there any theory about this equipment?

Edited August 28, 2016 by maczero

[eko.prasetiyo]

As there are few episodes to finish the season,

Is there any theory about this equipment?

perhaps the reason we dont see valk action lately is because they are preparing hayate's plane for that superpack

[aurance]

perhaps the reason we dont see valk action lately is because they are preparing hayate's plane for that superpack

We've already seen it in the show a few times.

[This Confuses Gamlin]

I don't recall Delta firing anything from the MM pods during Episode 6. Alpha certainly did, for their DYRL homage missile-tracking shot.

Of minor note, the official subs from BD Vol. 2 Episode 6 state "Projection units attached", instead of "Protection" as in the fansubs, which makes more sense as they were running something closer in appearance to a Speaker Pod/Super Pack setup instead of Armored Packs.

Edited August 28, 2016 by This Confuses Gamlin

[Aries Turner]

Nah... in most fighter-mode dogfights, the pilots aren't going to encounter g-forces sufficient to actually put that kind of massive g-loads on the airframe. They're subsonic most of the time.

They *appear* subsonic. Then the camera zooms out and we see the crazy light lines that are so easy to draw but necessarily imply there are impressive G-forces involved. Frontier happened mostly in space, so that weren't an issue. Correct me if I am wrong, but when in atmosphere, other modes were only used on ground fights. Once in fighter mode, no other mode is selected until reaching space.

[Master Dex]

They *appear* subsonic. Then the camera zooms out and we see the crazy light lines that are so easy to draw but necessarily imply there are impressive G-forces involved. Frontier happened mostly in space, so that weren't an issue. Correct me if I am wrong, but when in atmosphere, other modes were only used on ground fights. Once in fighter mode, no other mode is selected until reaching space.

Nah, Zero did a lot of multi-mode use in atmo, as did SDFM. Max was a frequent user of multi-mode tactics, which is one reason he was so good, and he did it in any medium (including inside ship hallways, and sometimes with a coat on, lol). Arguably, gerwalk is ideal for atmosphere as well, and only older battroids were really just for strict ground usage (since the intent was to combat giant ground troops). Frontier and Delta era VFs are so heavily powered and armed that even the battroid can handle itself mid-air, and was often more agile than gerwalk. Each mode has uses and there is no strict lane that defines them as only being good for one area. Though it is true that in space, you can go with pretty much any mode.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well with the VF-4 even considered not to include the transforming feature was mentioned once before. Kurakin and Federov are like the main timeline counterparts to Dr. H. Takachihoff who founded Takachihoff Company in the Macross II timeline.

Ugh... hate that article SO MUCH for all the inaccurate information in it. So many conclusions jumped-to on the basis of a lack of information...

For the record, the VF-4 has always been described as being a variable fighter capable of transformation... or at least until some jackass writing a sheet for Macross Chronicle jumped to an erroneous conclusion about it because it wasn't depicted transforming until ten years after debuting in the Macross Flashback 2012 OVA. Go back as far as the prototype's line art in Macross: Perfect Memory and you'll see it's very clearly identified as a Variable Fighter (可変戦闘機). The reason for the stupid conclusion jumped to in that article and in Master File is that the VF-4 simply did not appear again until Macross Digital Mission VF-X, where the G variant was the standard.

(Other games subsequently depicted the VF-4 as transformable well before the G variant was a thing in the 2040's. Master File seems to be trying to rationalize this by making the G-variant the standard one from very early on instead of being a 2040's modernization of the VF-4.)

As far as Kurakin and Federov, it's worth remembering Master File isn't necessarily official to the Macross setting... and they're certainly not the first ones to be identified as the father of VF design the way Dr. Takachihof was in the Macross II universe. Colonel Takatoku, for one, beat them to the punch in connection with the VF-3 and VF-4. Zentradi engineer Algus Selzaa has also previously been credited as really being the father of General Galaxy's VF program... being the lead developer of the company's first few big sellers like the VF-9 and VF-14 and the main mover behind its Zentradi technology-based design style.

As there are few episodes to finish the season,

Is there any theory about this equipment?

Bog standard Super Pack?

They *appear* subsonic. Then the camera zooms out and we see the crazy light lines that are so easy to draw but necessarily imply there are impressive G-forces involved. Frontier happened mostly in space, so that weren't an issue. Correct me if I am wrong, but when in atmosphere, other modes were only used on ground fights. Once in fighter mode, no other mode is selected until reaching space.

But we also see, quite frequently, a favorite Kawamori touch of having fighters dogfighting suddenly boost supersonic with the iconic vapor ring so commonly associated with breaking the sound barrier. That strongly points to them being sub-sonic most of the time.

Macross Delta is definitely the odd one out in Macross for NOT using all modes extensively in atmosphere. Max made a show of it in Super Dimension Fortress Macross and Macross: Do You Remember Love?, an equally impressive multi-mode pair of dogfights was the climax of Macross Plus, most of Macross 7 was in space and the show all but ignored GERWALK but Battroid mode was used in flight in atmosphere an awful lot, and Zero was just plain showing off as often as the VF-0s and Sv-51s were transforming in atmosphere. Frontier was mostly in space, but in that show's few atmospheric dogfights they transformed fairly frequently (GERWALK seemed to be a favorite mode there due to strafing side to side).

In fact, it's kind of weird that the model kit pamphlet for the VF-31J claims the VF-31 cannot fly in atmosphere in battroid mode... we've seen in previous shows that battroids have had more than enough thrust to fly on their own via raw thrust for a good three fighter generations by that point. They did it all the time in Macross 7... possibly because the choreographers seem to have forgotten GERWALK mode was a thing most of the time.

[Master Dex]

On the subject of M7 ignoring Gerwalk, which is generally true save for when they were parking the VFs, part of it I think stems from the fact that Basara, while being skilled at flying the fighter and using the battroid, seemed rather awkward and uncomfortable in Gerwalk at least once or twice. I think he actually avoided it as a result. Why this would be any harder for him when he can operate the other modes I can't guess however.

[Aries Turner]

Nah, Zero did a lot of multi-mode use in atmo, as did SDFM.

As I pointed: in VF-0/1, max. velocity (i.e. max energy state) is not as much as in VFs from Plus and later. Losing maneuver energy to transform was an acceptable trade-off, but at 5.5Mach/ 30G+ turns, losing speed and energy to transform would turn you a sitting duck. *In* atmosphere, though. In space there is no friction that would prevent changing fighter mode to battroid instantly and then again to fighter mode.

But we also see, quite frequently, a favorite Kawamori touch of having fighters dogfighting suddenly boost supersonic with the iconic vapor ring so commonly associated with breaking the sound barrier. That strongly points to them being sub-sonic most of the time.

Good observation, but possibly bad interpretation. Those vapor cones are not exclusive of the transonic regime, but also repeat themselves at different flight speeds well beyond the sound barrier, as when the speed is so great that even the forward and rear shock cones start to overlap.

[Edit]: I may not be right, still searching about hypersonic phenomena.

[2nd Edit]: I was right... but wrong. Between minimal critical Mach and maximal critical Mach of a certain plane, the flight regime where all airflow around that given plane is entirely subsonic and the flight regime where all airflow around the plane is entirely subsonic, wave drag is present over different components of the plane, creating separate vapor cones at different airspeeds. But those are necessarily around the general transonic regime, not Mach 3. However, as the engines need a subsonic airflow or risk flameout, local vapor cones could form at the Mach number in which engine cones, ramps or whatever method that ensure the capability fail catastrophically, provoking said flameout.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_cone

[3rd Edit]: Also, my explanation fails to account for Macross Plus atmo battle, unless Eden atmosphere is thinner. Besides, at such absurdly high power to weight ratios, losing energy is not as much an issue if you could go from 0 to supersonic in an instant by sheer brute force.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

As I pointed: in VF-0/1, max. velocity (i.e. max energy state) is not as much as in VFs from Plus and later. Losing maneuver energy to transform was an acceptable trade-off, but at 5.5Mach/ 30G+ turns, losing speed and energy to transform would turn you a sitting duck.

So... your assertion here doesn't really fit with anything that's been shown in any of the previous Macross titles. Here's why:

• As noted previously, Macross Delta is extremely odd in that it isn't depicting transformation as a staple of aerial combat in atmosphere. Dogfights in previous Macross shows made liberal use of switching to Battroid for the purpose of shooting down incoming missiles, and GERWALK mode was used many times as a more workable version of Pugachev's Cobra to decelerate suddenly to let an enemy overtake the fighter and get on their tail.
• Because of fuselage heating due to air friction, the actual usable maximum velocity in low altitude flight has stayed fairly constant, and visual evidence strongly suggests that air combat speeds are in the subsonic regime the overwhelming majority of the time because going very fast matters less than being very agile. Even in the real world we don't dogfight at top speed.
• You're forgetting that the increase in maximum speed is a function of the increase in overall engine power and maximum instantaneous thrust. As a rule, these VFs have enough engine power that the increasing distance between zero velocity and top speed is balanced by a corresponding increase in the maximum acceleration they can produce by simple brute-force application of thrust. Some of these 5th Generation VFs can accelerate at 30G from a standing start, which kind of turns the loss of momentum from deceleration into a non-issue.

[trojan_gambit]

We've already seen it in the show a few times.

I don't think it's the Pack we saw in the show.

Of minor note, the official subs from BD Vol. 2 Episode 6 state "Projection units attached", instead of "Protection" as in the fansubs, which makes more sense as they were running something closer in appearance to a Speaker Pod/Super Pack setup instead of Armored Packs.

Yes. When they are about to launch, I notice 'something' unfold from the Pack, could be the speaker or projector.

The super pack from the link above doesn't seem to have that feature.

Or it could be Sound Pack is just Super Pack with additional Speaker/Projector module (and Bandai save the speaker/projector modules for later kit release).

[kalvasflam]

Speaking of packs, why are the 171s going barebones? You'd think that they'd have at least some type of packs on.

[sketchley]

Speaking of packs, why are the 171s going barebones? You'd think that they'd have at least some type of packs on.

I can't comment on the situation in Delta per se, but in the previous series (7, F), the VF-171 (and VF-17) are described as aircraft with 'surplus' internal space. So, they don't have a shortage of such things as missiles.

Also, Super Packs are generally designed to make up for a VF's deficiencies in outer space - which was never a problem for the VF-171/17, as they were designed to be a space fighter in the first place.

The out-of-universe explanation is as sad as it is maddening: they aren't the hero mecha. Thus they aren't going to sell as many toys/models/whatever. So, there's no pressure from the sponsors to create more alternates so that they can sell more products.

As it is, it took us two TV series, 2 movies, and more than half a decade before we got our first VF-171 model kit...

Edited August 29, 2016 by sketchley

[Vernon]

Regarding the fold wave system on both Yf-29 and Vf-31,is there a difference in term of performance? and btw is there a huge gap of performance between the two,since the durandal is so bank breaking expensive?

[Seto Kaiba]

Speaking of packs, why are the 171s going barebones? You'd think that they'd have at least some type of packs on.

sketchley covered the main points in his usual excellent fashion, so I'd just like to make one additional relevant point WRT the VF-171's tech specs:

The VF-171 Nightmare Plus, like the other 4th Generation VFs, is outfitted with thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines... an evolutionary upgrade from initial thermonuclear reaction turbine engine designs with greatly improved heat exchange technology and fuel efficiency. On paper, a 4th Generation VF isn't supposed to need a FAST pack for most space ops. They probably just use conformal fuel tanks to extend their range on long range patrols.

Why we've come back to FAST packs being a thing in some 5th Generation VFs seems to be more a matter of carrying hundreds of missiles without ruining the fighter's thrust-to-weight ratio than a genuine need to extend the fighter's propellant capacity and acceleration. (Of course, toys have something to do with it as well...)

Regarding the fold wave system on both Yf-29 and Vf-31,is there a difference in term of performance? and btw is there a huge gap of performance between the two,since the durandal is so bank breaking expensive?

We have no idea... no quantification of the fold wave system's performance has ever been made.

I'd assume the VF-31's fold wave system is less bank-breaking since the requirement seems to be one super-high purity fold quartz chunk per engine and the VF-31 has just two engines...

[aurance]

I don't think it's the Pack we saw in the show.

Yes. When they are about to launch, I notice 'something' unfold from the Pack, could be the speaker or projector.

The super pack from the link above doesn't seem to have that feature.

Or it could be Sound Pack is just Super Pack with additional Speaker/Projector module (and Bandai save the speaker/projector modules for later kit release).

Yep, it's the same equipment without the speaker thingie.

Edited August 29, 2016 by aurance

[RedWolf]

Episode 22 finally explained how the Aerial Knights went around without having a Fold Booster or piggybacking a carrier. Protoculture Fold Quartz based Fold Systems can generate a two way Fold gate from the origin to the target destination. This is different from the explanation in Macross Chronicle where the Fold drive generates a warp bubble in Fold Space.

Edited August 29, 2016 by RedWolf

[Aries Turner]

This was kind of off-topic in Delta #22 discussion, so...

Considering the SMS VB-6 was equipped with the same energy conversion armor as the VF-25's Armored Pack (ASWGA Advanced Energy Conversion Armor), its reactor output probably ...

...should have been pumped-up, via engine tuning, adding engines as in Ravens type or exchanging those with newer surplus engines, even VF-25 ones.

They probably had to economize somewhere... all that Advanced ECA isn't cheap by any means, and a complete retrofit of the control system probably didn't do the general operating account any favors either.

I am pretty sure I am missing something here. I thought that kind of armor required energy, and a high amount of it. By your answers, I deduced I am dead wrong. Could you elaborate?

[Edit]: Also, the pin point barrier.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

Episode 22 finally explained how the Aerial Knights went around without having a Fold Booster or piggybacking a carrier. Protoculture Fold Quartz based Fold Systems can generate a two way Fold gate from the origin to the target destination. This is different from the explanation in Macross Chronicle where the Fold drive generates a warp bubble in Fold Space.

As I noted over in the other thread, this seems to be a macro version of the fold stones on Uroboros... though the effect used by Windermere seems to be different from the one generated by the ruins, possibly indicative of Sigur Valens generating it instead.

In theory, it shouldn't be any different from a normal fold... it's rendering two discrete points in space coterminous by linking them through fold space. Either the bubble of normalized space that normally carries a ship during a fold is sitting in the middle of the fold gate to provide a realspace bridge between point A and point B, or the origin and destination are bridged thoroughly enough that one isn't necessary. The "warp bubble" a fold drive normally generates is a bubble of normalized space around the ship which is then cut off and exchanged for an equivalent volume of space at the ship's destination... the ship isn't being moved, the space containing the ship is.

All a "fold gate" is is the transition point from fold space to normal space.

This was kind of off-topic in Delta #22 discussion, so...I am pretty sure I am missing something here. I thought that kind of armor required energy, and a high amount of it. By your answers, I deduced I am dead wrong. Could you elaborate?[Edit]: Also, the pin point barrier.

No, you're right... energy conversion armor requires a rather substantial amount of energy to run. I'd assume the VB-6's stock engines are tuned to emphasize generator output over thrust production, and are probably fusing their fuel at a faster rate to keep up with the energy demands of such an enormous mecha.

As to why they wouldn't upgrade the engines, what I was getting at over in the other thread is that, after upgrading the armor to the same Advanced Energy Conversion Armor used on the VF-25's Armored Pack (which is so expensive the pack is restricted to ranking pilots and aces) they probably had to keep the costs down somewhere... and engines are one of a VF's most expensive parts.

(Structural and/or thermal limits may also be a factor, since upgrading to an engine that produced greater thrust would also increase the burden on the engine cooling system and flight-related stresses on the airframe.)

Pin-point barriers also require a LOT of power... more than energy conversion armor, if one takes remarks about the YF-19/VF-19A into account. The YF-19 (or VF-19A) needed to devote 60% of its reactor output just to run the barrier system.

[Aries Turner]

...so, if Ravens VB-6 capitalized on speed, SMS variant capitalizes on resilience, taxing the engines way so much it should fly subsonic, almost all engine power redirected to armor and barrier, barely able to lift itself off the ground. I assume rockets would be always on, just to keep the thing flying, guzzling the fuel.

So the quotation about being somewhat lighter is not about improvement, but stripping it of everything not essential to allow the thing to fly, Spruce Goose style.

[Edit]: Maybe the EX-Geat wasn´t an improvement either, but a requisite, to discard obsolete avionics and two thirds of life support equipment, including Martin Beck seats. I know it sounds crazy, but I am liking better this barely self-deploying atmospheric reentry assault artillery than the heavy valkyrie thing the game made it appear, and expect nothing short of a Zentraedi Re-Entry Pod to take it back to orbit.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Aries Turner

[grigolosi]

As I pointed: in VF-0/1, max. velocity (i.e. max energy state) is not as much as in VFs from Plus and later. Losing maneuver energy to transform was an acceptable trade-off, but at 5.5Mach/ 30G+ turns, losing speed and energy to transform would turn you a sitting duck. *In* atmosphere, though. In space there is no friction that would prevent changing fighter mode to battroid instantly and then again to fighter mode.

Good observation, but possibly bad interpretation. Those vapor cones are not exclusive of the transonic regime, but also repeat themselves at different flight speeds well beyond the sound barrier, as when the speed is so great that even the forward and rear shock cones start to overlap.

[Edit]: I may not be right, still searching about hypersonic phenomena.

[2nd Edit]: I was right... but wrong. Between minimal critical Mach and maximal critical Mach of a certain plane, the flight regime where all airflow around that given plane is entirely subsonic and the flight regime where all airflow around the plane is entirely subsonic, wave drag is present over different components of the plane, creating separate vapor cones at different airspeeds. But those are necessarily around the general transonic regime, not Mach 3. However, as the engines need a subsonic airflow or risk flameout, local vapor cones could form at the Mach number in which engine cones, ramps or whatever method that ensure the capability fail catastrophically, provoking said flameout.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor_cone

[3rd Edit]: Also, my explanation fails to account for Macross Plus atmo battle, unless Eden atmosphere is thinner. Besides, at such absurdly high power to weight ratios, losing energy is not as much an issue if you could go from 0 to supersonic in an instant by sheer brute force.

The vapor trails you see are generally created at low altitudes and when there is higher humidity in the air. So wingtip trails can form at subsonic speeds also. But almost all sonic vapor cones around the frame form only at the barrier. That is why 99% of the photos you see of these are all barrier breaks at low altitude and in humid dense air. Also the engine designs include Variable Stator Vanes in front of the fan section. While a variramp or shock cone reduces the inlet airflow to subsonic speeds the use of VSV's to angle the airflow directly into the engine also continues to reduce the airflow speed. This has for the most part eliminated compression stalls in the newer engines. The current GE's are damn near impossible to compressor stall. I have only seen one occasion for this to happen and it was pilot induced during ACM . The GE engineers actually had to see the engine data minute by minute to see the compressor stall happen.

[Vernon]

We have no idea... no quantification of the fold wave system's performance has ever been made.

I'd assume the VF-31's fold wave system is less bank-breaking since the requirement seems to be one super-high purity fold quartz chunk per engine and the VF-31 has just two engines...

Sorry for another question,i checked on macross mecha manual it stated that the Yf-29 is equipped with the fold quartz with the name of "philosopher stone".So i was thinking is it the Siegfried is equip with the same fold quartz?

[Seto Kaiba]

Sorry for another question,i checked on macross mecha manual it stated that the Yf-29 is equipped with the fold quartz with the name of "philosopher stone".So i was thinking is it the Siegfried is equip with the same fold quartz?

Don't apologize for asking questions!

As to whether the Xaos Valkyrie Works VF-31 Siegfried customs have the super-high purity fold quartz classified as the "Philosopher's Stone", the published specs don't say but it's a safe bet they do. Probably only two of them instead of four, given that the VF-31 has just the two engines.

I'd have a hard time formulating a sound theory regarding the Sv-262's "reheat system", since that's a poor man's fold wave system. My gut feeling on that one would be that it probably is using lower-quality fold quartz below the "Philosopher's Stone" level, since the writeup says it's fold quartz nicked from the ruins on Windermere.

(But at least these philosopher's stones aren't made from dead people or sought after by a noseless magical nazi, right?)

[squaresphere]

I'm wondering about the market price for Fold Quartz. From the Windemere perspective they're probably selling portions of it to Epsilon to fund their war chest. FQs are the hottest commodity in the galaxy at the moment and securing it from a backwater planet where no other major corps have a steak is a boon for them.

Hell I wouldn't find it surprising if they funded the war of Independence too. Have FQ not subject to NUNS export restrictions would allow them to freely pursue their own development without regulations. Going further, the "price" they're paying its probably a pittance in the great scheme (a few squadrons of SVs and carrier ships). The whole cluster seems like a hot bed for field test and PC research.

Honestly, a move like that is exactly what General Galaxy would need after the loss of the Galaxy Fleet to stay competitive on a galactic scale.

Edited August 30, 2016 by squaresphere

[RedWolf]

Hell I wouldn't find it surprising if they funded the war of Independence too. Have FQ not subject to NUNS export restrictions would allow them to freely pursue their own development without regulations. Going further, the "price" they're paying its probably a pittance in the great scheme (a few squadrons of SVs and carrier ships). The whole cluster seems like a hot bed for field test and PC research.

Going by the fifth chapter Black Wings of the White Knight the right to harvest their own Fold Quartz is the reason why Windermere had an independence war in the first place. The so called Unequal Treaty.

On the NUN's side it is understandable. They don't want the proliferation of Fold Quartz to turn to a MDE arms race.

On Windermere's side they can't progress beyond an agricultural economy due to the Fold Fault surrounding their planet.

[Zinjo]

Macross Delta is definitely the odd one out in Macross for NOT using all modes extensively in atmosphere. Max made a show of it in Super Dimension Fortress Macross and Macross: Do You Remember Love?, an equally impressive multi-mode pair of dogfights was the climax of Macross Plus, most of Macross 7 was in space and the show all but ignored GERWALK but Battroid mode was used in flight in atmosphere an awful lot, and Zero was just plain showing off as often as the VF-0s and Sv-51s were transforming in atmosphere. Frontier was mostly in space, but in that show's few atmospheric dogfights they transformed fairly frequently (GERWALK seemed to be a favorite mode there due to strafing side to side).

In fact, it's kind of weird that the model kit pamphlet for the VF-31J claims the VF-31 cannot fly in atmosphere in battroid mode... we've seen in previous shows that battroids have had more than enough thrust to fly on their own via raw thrust for a good three fighter generations by that point. They did it all the time in Macross 7... possibly because the choreographers seem to have forgotten GERWALK mode was a thing most of the time.

OK, maybe this is me, but the "odd one" is Macross 7 that tossed most believability to the winds during it run. For me, the antics of the fighters in M7 are more suspect than the lack of battroid air battles in MD.

M Zero seemed to have the most believable battroid air sequences that tended to show the fighters aloft in battroid, but under a slow controlled descent as the units were not designed to really fly in that mode.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm wondering about the market price for Fold Quartz. From the Windemere perspective they're probably selling portions of it to Epsilon to fund their war chest. FQs are the hottest commodity in the galaxy at the moment and securing it from a backwater planet where no other major corps have a steak is a boon for them.

Hell I wouldn't find it surprising if they funded the war of Independence too. Have FQ not subject to NUNS export restrictions would allow them to freely pursue their own development without regulations. Going further, the "price" they're paying its probably a pittance in the great scheme (a few squadrons of SVs and carrier ships). The whole cluster seems like a hot bed for field test and PC research.

Honestly, a move like that is exactly what General Galaxy would need after the loss of the Galaxy Fleet to stay competitive on a galactic scale.

Well... I'd imagine that fold quartz is like any other commodity, with a value that varies from place to place based on a variety of market factors. Supply and demand, the relative difficulty and/or danger of extracting it from Protoculture ruins or Vajra hive sites, the purchasing power of the local currency, and the exchange rates of the different local currencies should all affect the regional market price for fold quartz.

On Windermere, the market value of fold quartz appears to have been relatively low. It was plentiful and easy to harvest, and demand was and is limited by the difficulties of Windermere's trade situation.¹

Fold quartz is probably more expensive on a planet like Uroboros, where it's plentiful but dangerous to harvest because the Protoculture ruins all over the planet are positively crawling with lethal bio-technological guardian creatures² able to inflict serious harm on even a modern Valkyrie... or a planet that doesn't have any Protoculture ruins or former Vajra nesting sites.

OK, maybe this is me, but the "odd one" is Macross 7 that tossed most believability to the winds during it run. For me, the antics of the fighters in M7 are more suspect than the lack of battroid air battles in MD.

M Zero seemed to have the most believable battroid air sequences that tended to show the fighters aloft in battroid, but under a slow controlled descent as the units were not designed to really fly in that mode.

OK, I could understand discontent with the Sound Force Valkyries... but otherwise I thought it was all right.

Macross Zero is kind of its own category, because its VFs have extremely low thrust-to-weight ratios³ and aggressively limited endurance because they're relying on conventional overtuned turbine engines burning high-powered jet fuel. With them needing more than half their engine output just to stay aloft in Battroid mode and energy conversion armor consuming 90% of the engine output in Battroid mode, that was always going to be a losing battle where battroid mode was less hovering or flying and more "falling, with style!".

1. Being surrounded by fold faults, the Windermere Kingdom's interstellar trade relationships were fraught with difficulty for any export at even the best of times. The New UN Government's strict oversight, regulation, and restriction of trading in fold quartz certainly didn't help, and I'll wager the trade restrictions that came with being reclassified a hostile foreign power after the war of independence did not improve matters one jot.

2. The Dyaus, who are also large enough to make sending explorers in on foot unviable... and that's not counting the occasional cruiser-sized Mother Dyaus.

3. ~1.8, approximately 1/2 that of a stock VF-1A-4 Valkyrie.

[Zinjo]

OK, I could understand discontent with the Sound Force Valkyries... but otherwise I thought it was all right.

Macross Zero is kind of its own category, because its VFs have extremely low thrust-to-weight ratios³ and aggressively limited endurance because they're relying on conventional overtuned turbine engines burning high-powered jet fuel. With them needing more than half their engine output just to stay aloft in Battroid mode and energy conversion armor consuming 90% of the engine output in Battroid mode, that was always going to be a losing battle where battroid mode was less hovering or flying and more "falling, with style!".

The only real tactical advantage a battroid has in the air is the ability to take a defensive stance against a superior force for as long as your ordinance or skill lasts.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

The only real tactical advantage a battroid has in the air is the ability to take a defensive stance against a superior force for as long as your ordinance or skill lasts.

Nah, Battroid mode has a few other major tactical advantages in a dogfight... its agility is extremely high because it can leverage, AMBAC-style maneuvering, high-thrust verniers, and the main and sub-engines for one. It also makes it a good deal easier to bring the heavier guns to bear on multiple targets and intercept missiles. (This is the subject of some considerable fussing on Gamlin's part, because battroids were presented as being capable of high lateral g-forces during that kind of maneuvering and he was hacked off that Basara could handle it to the fullest and he couldn't.)

Macross 7 and Macross Frontier were both quite good about showing that Battroid mode could be used offensively in a dogfight... and even Delta threw that one bone in a recent episode where Hayate went charging at Keith in battroid with his gun pod blazing. Max, of course, sets the gold standard back in the original series against Milia inside the Macross itself.