Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[Seto Kaiba]

Ha, it feels like someone looked at the development and unit cost of the F-22 and F-35 and extrapolated. Wonder when that manual came out

The date of publication is 27 May 1984.

[Seto Kaiba]

Noticed something interesting and relevant while I was looking over Great Mechanics G for the differences between the VF-31A/B Kairos and VF-31C/E/F/J/S Siegfried...

One of the things Kawamori mentions while discussing the differences (or rather, lack thereof) between the VF-31 mass production type and VF-31 Xaos custom type is that the VF-31 family is, in his view, about 2-3 years (in-universe) from being commissioned.

It seems like there may be something to my earlier theory that Xaos is carrying out the field testing on the VF-31 prior to its adoption by the Brisingr Alliance NUNS the same way the SMS Frontier branch office was doing with the VF-25 prior to its adoption by the Frontier fleet's NUNS in Macross Frontier.

That, of course, carries with it the slightly obnoxious plot device that, since the war began before the new fighter could be adopted by the NUNS, it's down to the special snowflakes from the PMC doing the testing to do all the fighting.

[Aries Turner]

The VF-11 has a gun pointing forward in fighter mode... it's a high-powered 30mm rotary cannon firing Anti-ECA shells.

Yeah, the gunpod, my point. Exactly what I was saying: every VF since VF-11 had mounted some form of cannon on awkward turrets or fixed impractical position when in battroid just to supplement the gunpod when in fighter mode. The VF-31A is the first that can make use of those in battroid mode other than firing from the hips or moving the entire chest or hoping for an overflight (as the VF-27 nacelle cannons).

The VF-31's forearm guns are impractical for their own reasons, being that the gun has to rotate 180 degrees to remain usable and being a railgun firing high velocity hard rounds means the weapon's ammunition is aggressively limited by its mounting out on the forearm.

That is false and you even dedicated a thread to the ammunition issue (or wasn't you?): a railgun round is fast. It is not forced to have a high rate of fire. It could have, but is not forced to. And ammunition is lighter, as it is only the "bullet", not the casing, nor the chemical propellant, not even a warhead or a fuze. VF-31A hands also don't retract into the arms, so there is plenty of space there for the usual amount of rounds. Rotation presents issues only in being precise to not affect aiming: rotary ammunition feeders do exist nowadays in the form of FN P90.

There's nothing to indicate the Q-Rau is anything like as uber as you contend that it is. We've seen that Q-Raus piloted by elite top aces are equal to the capabilities of VFs piloted by elite top aces, but there's no indication that fodder-piloted units exhibit "game-breaking" performance.

No rookie pilot ever defeated a -Rau, whatever the ride, before the VF-25. I concede however that no -Rau was ever piloted by any Meltran that could be considered a rookie: every -Rau pilot was an ace, feared rightfully by their Zentran counterparts.

The third section sounded a bit snarky on review, so I've revised it to the helpful tone I intended. Sorry for that.

It seemed pretty educative: as others said, I would like to be able to read the Master Files.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Zinjo]

Noticed something interesting and relevant while I was looking over Great Mechanics G for the differences between the VF-31A/B Kairos and VF-31C/E/F/J/S Siegfried...

One of the things Kawamori mentions while discussing the differences (or rather, lack thereof) between the VF-31 mass production type and VF-31 Xaos custom type is that the VF-31 family is, in his view, about 2-3 years (in-universe) from being commissioned.

It seems like there may be something to my earlier theory that Xaos is carrying out the field testing on the VF-31 prior to its adoption by the Brisingr Alliance NUNS the same way the SMS Frontier branch office was doing with the VF-25 prior to its adoption by the Frontier fleet's NUNS in Macross Frontier.

That, of course, carries with it the slightly obnoxious plot device that, since the war began before the new fighter could be adopted by the NUNS, it's down to the special snowflakes from the PMC doing the testing to do all the fighting.

If that is the case, it makes me wonder how much more advanced a Federal fighter of this generation is? I do agree it is becoming a worrying trend that PMC's are becoming the standard plot devices for Macross series.

I get the idea of it since SK really can't have individually customized paint jobs (something the sponsors would want) on NUNS fighters, with the exception of the CAG fighters, as it detracts from the serious nature and standarizaton of Federal forces. Though, in publications, different fleets employ different paint schemes for their assigned fighter compliments.

So conceivably, if Federal forces arrived in the cluster we could see VF's of different paint schemes depending on how many task forces are deployed to the region. It would be a cool way to showcase the Federal versions of the YF-24 derivative in multiple color schemes.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Zinjo

[Sildani]

I think Seto said somewhere the Federal-strength 24 is an absolute monster, superior to anything we've seen so far, excepting the YF-29 and YF-30. The former is ruiniously expensive, the latter was a special one-off proof of concept.

[Master Dex]

There are a lot of hints about the specs of the YF-24 from official sources that claim the pared down specs the emigrant fleets got was heavily reduced in capability. Thus the likely VF-24 Federal NUNS has produced by the time Frontier made the 25 is likely a total monster of power. NUNS traditionally uses the benchmark of being able to combat a Zentradi fleet (understandable considering history, they likely want to ensure Earth is the last world to face such a glassing), but it is possible that the discovery of the Vajra in the 40s spurred some of it too. The YF-29 which is the closest an emigrant fleet likely got to the 24's true level was designed precisely with Vajra in mind after all. The difference is, Federal NUNS can fund such a crazy fighter.

I think the story says that Shinsei sold the YF-24 design on the ability of it being able to do short range folds (with a booster surely, unless that is another innovation that Federal NUNS has classified) straight into enemy fleets, wreck the place from the inside, and then fold out so the allied fleet can mop out with little resistance (or Macross cannon everything else since it can charge while the 24 is rampaging).

Edited August 19, 2016 by Master Dex

[grigolosi]

.

So do you. I am not pointing the obvious thing that Chaos Squadrons are not being issuing missiles other than mini. I am pointing out that two hardpoints are not necessarily too few. The F-15E Strike Eagle mount six bombs, an AMRAAM and a Sidewinder in each of its two wing pylons.

Strike Eagles can mount up to 6 Bombs on each wing pylon using a BRU-41 MER. Normal load out though is on the FAST Pack and fuselage mounts with 600 gal wing tanks on the wing pylons w/ one AIM-120 and AIM-9. MER's are not used on the wing pylon position by the USAF due to aerodynamic issues when dropping from the aft inside rack positions ( the bombs tend to spin and are drawn in toward the frame by the air flow around the frame).

The animators did make mistakes when producing the VF-31 scenes. Here is a pic of the VF-31 with the hardpoint positions highlighted.

Roy Focker also destroyed several Q-Rau's in his last engagement. The Q-Rau was not the juggernaut you think it is. It all boils down to experience and skill in the end not necessarily the crate. It was originally designed for the female physiology that is why you only saw the female Zentraedi pilots flying them. The Female Zentraedi Aces preferred the Q-Rau due to its capabilities, they weren't necessarily flown soley by ace pilots though.

Edited August 19, 2016 by grigolosi

[aurance]

There are a lot of hints about the specs of the YF-24 from official sources that claim the pared down specs the emigrant fleets got was heavily reduced in capability. Thus the likely VF-24 Federal NUNS has produced by the time Frontier made the 25 is likely a total monster of power. NUNS traditionally uses the benchmark of being able to combat a Zentradi fleet (understandable considering history, they likely want to ensure Earth is the last world to face such a glassing), but it is possible that the discovery of the Vajra in the 40s spurred some of it too. The YF-29 which is the closest an emigrant fleet likely got to the 24's true level was designed precisely with Vajra in mind after all. The difference is, Federal NUNS can fund such a crazy fighter.

I think the story says that Shinsei sold the YF-24 design on the ability of it being able to do short range folds (with a booster surely, unless that is another innovation that Federal NUNS has classified) straight into enemy fleets, wreck the place from the inside, and then fold out so the allied fleet can mop out with little resistance (or Macross cannon everything else since it can charge while the 24 is rampaging).

I don't doubt the veracity of this from the official sources, but it makes me sad to know that all the cool ships we get to see are second rate compared to this phantom model.

[Seto Kaiba]

Exactly what I was saying: every VF since VF-11 had mounted some form of cannon on awkward turrets or fixed impractical position when in battroid just to supplement the gunpod when in fighter mode. The VF-31A is the first that can make use of those in battroid mode other than firing from the hips or moving the entire chest or hoping for an overflight (as the VF-27 nacelle cannons).

OTM laser and beam machine gun systems are inexpensive and fairly compact, so the increase in airframe size that began in the late 3rd Generation removed a lot of design constraints from the engineering teams developing new VFs. They had enough space that they could easily afford to fit a dedicated gun for the fighter to use in dogfights without compromising the rest of the design.

Mind you, it's been shown that the VF-19, VF-25, etc. can bring those guns to bear fairly easily in battroid mode given a target of similar size. Those gun systems aren't really meant for use against miclone-sized targets, but then I could say that of any weapon mounted on a VF.

That is false and you even dedicated a thread to the ammunition issue (or wasn't you?): a railgun round is fast. It is not forced to have a high rate of fire.

True, but the VF-31's railguns are depicted with a high rate of fire... so it's going to consume ammunition at a significant rate. Its bore is pretty large, so that's going to limit the amount of ammo it can carry as well.

And ammunition is lighter, as it is only the "bullet", not the casing, nor the chemical propellant, not even a warhead or a fuze.

Considering the mess the VF-31's railguns made of Uroh's Sv-262, it seems like they're firing Anti-ECA rounds instead of an inert kinetic slug.

VF-31A hands also don't retract into the arms, so there is plenty of space there for the usual amount of rounds. Rotation presents issues only in being precise to not affect aiming:

The VF-31's hands don't retract into the arms, but the arms are not especially large and there are other things that also need to occupy space in the arms as well. Power supply cabling and data bus cables for the hand and the gun, as an example. There's also going to have to be a cooling system to keep the railgun from overheating (you can't air cool in space), and all the moving parts which enable the gun to rotate and stay connected to the ammo feed.

Compared to a laser cannon, beam machine gun, or converging energy cannon, all of which would have effectively limitless endurance as long as the engines are running and/or the capacitors are charged, it seems like an odd choice to make the VF-31's dogfighting gun a weapon that can run out of ammo.

No rookie pilot ever defeated a -Rau, whatever the ride, before the VF-25. I concede however that no -Rau was ever piloted by any Meltran that could be considered a rookie: every -Rau pilot was an ace, feared rightfully by their Zentran counterparts. It seemed pretty educative: as others said, I would like to be able to read the Master Files.

There's an unspoken asterisk on your remark here... you're not personally aware of a Macross title depicting Queadluun-Raus being shot down by rookies, but just because you haven't seen a thing doesn't mean it hasn't happened. It happened fairly often in the Macross II timeline titles and in the First Space War. Zentradi haven't been antagonists very often in the main timeline, but several titles like Macross R and Macross 30 point to Q-Rau units in the hands of a top ace being on par with a 4th Generation VF at best, but one in the hands of an average pilot is well within the reach of an older generation VF... in no small measure because, like all Zentradi mecha, it's armored like a cream slice.

As far as every Queadluun-Rau pilot being an ace, that's questionable. Female Zentradi were made to be pilots with better g-force resistence, but as pilots the actual quality varies from individual to individual.

If that is the case, it makes me wonder how much more advanced a Federal fighter of this generation is?

If we take the remarks about the YF-29 being an attempt to surpass the YF-24's performance at face value, the VF-24 must be an absolute monster (as discussed earlier).

I get the idea of it since SK really can't have individually customized paint jobs (something the sponsors would want) on NUNS fighters, with the exception of the CAG fighters, as it detracts from the serious nature and standarizaton of Federal forces.

He didn't seem to have any problem getting individualized paintjobs on the VF-171EX Nightmare Plus. I think it's more a case of Macross having come down with a bit of an anti-authoritarian streak since Macross 7. The military have to follow laws and rules and regulations, whereas a fictional PMC with limitless funding is magically exempt from that and can play at being allies of justice without encumberances like the chain of command or politics.

[Aries Turner]

Roy Focker also destroyed several Q-Rau's in his last engagement.

Another war ace. That makes four after Jenius, Basara and Aegis Focker. Five if you count former -Rau pilot Millia. Anywhere else the -Raus were savaging everyone.

They had enough space that they could easily afford to fit a dedicated gun for the fighter to use in dogfights without compromising the rest of the design.

What is compromised here, and as an engineer you should know, is complexity, maintenance, total cost of the airframe and whatnot. Every ounce of equipment you add worsens the thrust/weight ratio. If more space is gained, cool for the special ops fighters. But grunt fighters need less gadgetry, not more.

Mind you, it's been shown that the VF-19, VF-25, etc. can bring those guns to bear fairly easily in battroid mode given a target of similar size.

Not as easily and naturally as pointing an arm, whatever the size and the range of the target. Besides, maybe Basara fired from the hip mounted root wing cannons, but I do not recall Alto firing from the hip swivel cannons.

the VF-31's railguns are depicted with a high rate of fire... so it's going to consume ammunition at a significant rate. Its bore is pretty large, so that's going to limit the amount of ammo it can carry as well.

False again. VF-31 cannons are not shown firing faster than chaingun GU-11 pods. Besides, if those are not railguns but coilguns, the bore is only the diameter of the coils, the metal rods being of any diameter that fits, mostly subcaliber.

Considering the mess the VF-31's railguns made of Uroh's Sv-262, it seems like they're firing Anti-ECA rounds instead of an inert kinetic slug.

Any metal rod, even a smaller one, depleted uranium or not, fired by a railgun have such amount of kinetic energy as speed alone that explosive warheads add nothing. It is that brutal.

The VF-31's hands don't retract into the arms

That means no special mount, no retracting gear, no special reinforcement,...

Compared to a laser cannon, beam machine gun, or converging energy cannon, all of which would have effectively limitless endurance as long as the engines are running and/or the capacitors are charged, it seems like an odd choice to make the VF-31's dogfighting gun a weapon that can run out of ammo.

Do you remember you were trying to imply that a beampod wasn't enough and more kinetic missiles are guns were needed, as in every other VF? Do you? It is not only that you are forgetting about the beampod of the VF-31 or its use as a Tornado/YF-29 turreted gun, but that having such a beampod, arm cannons as slug-thrower fallback and a reconfigurable pod was the whole point about why it may have only two hardpoints. So yeah, I agree with you here. I am not so sure you'll agree with yourself, however.

About the Q-Rau, lets agree to disagree.

In conclusion:

• The VF-31A/B Kairos achieves slug-throwing capability and a degree of redundancy with two railguns, where any other VF use a gunpod and two or even four chainguns.
• The VF-31A/B Kairos achieves anti-fighter and anti-ship quantum beam capability with a gunpod, where other designs use two beam chainguns, a turret and/or a battery powered beam cannon.
• The VF-31A/B Kairos achieves a high count of missiles by using integral mini-missile launchers and a pod that could mount a huge payload of those, a medium sized payload and a beampod, or special bombs or missiles when/if used as a bomb bay.
• The VF-31A/B achieves all this with a minimum of system redundancy, keeping TCO low, in a lightweight fighter, on par with a gunpod equipped VF-25.

Buy one today and get a commemorative T-shirt! Edited August 19, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't doubt the veracity of this from the official sources, but it makes me sad to know that all the cool ships we get to see are second rate compared to this phantom model.

Unfortunately, that's just how Kawamori seems to have written it.

Anywhere else the -Raus were savaging everyone.

Pretty demonstrably untrue in many Macross titles, but hey...

What is compromised here, and as an engineer you should know, is complexity, maintenance, total cost of the airframe and whatnot. Every ounce of equipment you add worsens the thrust/weight ratio. If more space is gained, cool for the special ops fighters. But grunt fighters need less gadgetry, not more. [...]

Overall complexity went down significantly in the 5th Generation thanks to the introduction of the linear actuator transformation system... it's not an issue for modern VFs of the 2050's and beyond. Plus, the modularity of those weapons systems was considered a significant asset, allowing the fighter to tailor the internal weapons to the situation as well as the external ones.

Weight also isn't really an issue... honestly, it hasn't really been an issue since thermonuclear reaction turbine engines were first introduced. Thrust-to-weight ratios in the first few generations of variable fighters were double a modern jet fighter's. In the 4th Generation, thrust-to-weight ratios for most VFs exceeded 10.0, with the VF-171 being the only odd man out (until its -EX upgrade). The 5th Generation VFs have thrust-to-weight ratios that start over 39.0 and go up as high as 61.164.

Now that VF development and procurement is decentralized, some technological choices are a matter of the individual discretion of the fleet or world doing the development... but the Brisingr Alliance is not well-off financially, so they seem to be cutting corners on their 5th Generation VF. Most of the bells and whistles are pretty much standard across the galaxy, however.

Not as easily and naturally as pointing an arm, whatever the size and the range of the target. Besides, maybe Basara fired from the hip mounted root wing cannons, but I do not recall Alto firing from the hip swivel cannons.

To be fair, the pilot isn't the one pointing anything... body posture it all controlled by the airframe control AI, so what seems easy and natural for a body with a human range of articulation is more limited than what the VF can actually do. The separate guns also have an advantage that they can be aimed independently of the arms, which allows the fighter to employ those guns and the gun pod at the same time too.

(The most blatant use of the VF-19's wing glove guns is in Macross 30.)

False again. VF-31 cannons are not shown firing faster than chaingun GU-11 pods. Besides, if those are not railguns but coilguns, the bore is only the diameter of the coils, the metal rods being of any diameter that fits, mostly subcaliber.

No, my statement was not false. We're shown the railguns firing so fast that it's essentially impossible to tell how fast they're firing, and gunpods are variable rate-of-fire in Macross... with rates as low as 60-120rpm or upwards of 1,200.

Also, they're not coilguns. They're explicitly identified as railguns.

Any metal rod, even a smaller one, depleted uranium or not, fired by a railgun have such amount of kinetic energy as speed alone that explosive warheads add nothing. It is that brutal.

So... it's fun technical tidbit time again!

Y'see... in Macross, overtechnology materials did wonderful things for even relatively conventional things like rotary cannons. The humble GU-11A is chucking those 55mm High-Explosive Anti-ECA shells downrange at 2km/s, and it was one of the slower muzzle velocities among OTM-based large-caliber cannons in the First Space War. That's hypersonic, and for Macross it's on the slow side. The Defender's Type-966 PFG Contraves guns were lobbing their 78mm shells downrange at 3.3km/s. The "New Standard" gun pods of the VF-19 and the VF-22 were chucking their HEACA rounds downrange at 4km/s.

To wreak that kind of unholy havoc on a modern variable fighter with kinetic force alone, you need an ultradense shell that's moving at ~6.2km/s+. In all likelihood the VF-31's railguns are achieving something more in line with an existing gun pod (~4km/s) instead, meaning it's highly probable they use the specialized explosive rounds intended for defeating energy conversion armor.

Ordinarily with a railgun firing a solid slug, you expect a tiny entrance wound and a large exit wound. Hayate's railguns were gouging craters out of the armor of Uroh's Draken, seemingly close to the surface... which would point to them using explosive rounds.

Do you remember you were trying to imply that a beampod wasn't enough and more kinetic missiles are guns were needed, as in every other VF? Do you? It is not only that you are forgetting about the beampod of the VF-31 or its use as a Tornado/YF-29 turreted gun, but that having such a beampod, arm cannons as slug-thrower fallback and a reconfigurable pod was the whole point about why it may have only two hardpoints.

I believe you may have missed my point... almost completely, it seems.

You originally asserted that the addition of a beam gun pod invalidated the need for medium or long-range missiles on the Kairos and Siegfried. When I replied, I pointed out Kawamori had indicated the lack of medium or long-range missiles was nothing to do with the beam gunpod and purely a tactical call by Xaos in their belief in saving Var-afflicted troops and not representative of how a Kairos would be operated by the NUNS.

The problem with the railguns is that, as the default gun system for fighter mode, they have limited ammunition... something beam weapons that normally do that job don't have to worry about. They don't seem to offer any advantage in performance over more traditional options. The beam gunpod mounted out on the ordinance container also has some severe limitations... the gunpod's line of fire is obstructed in fighter mode (it has to drop down to fire), and the VF-31 can't deploy the container in a high-speed dogfight to use it as a turret. It can only do so during low-speed flight.

The VF-31 suffers because it has only the railguns for direct-fire weaponry at close range in fighter mode... where almost every other VF can bring laser or beam cannons and the gun pod to bear at the same time.

The VF-31A/B Kairos achieves slug-throwing capability and a degree of redundancy with two railguns, where any other VF use a gunpod and two or even four chainguns.

Chainguns? I'm gonna assume you mean "beam machine guns".

The VF-31A/B Kairos achieves anti-fighter and anti-ship quantum beam capability with a gunpod, where other designs use two beam chainguns, a turret and/or a battery powered beam cannon.

Unlike the beam gun pod of the VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30, the VF-31's beam gun pod has not demonstrated any increased-firepower mode for anti-ship use. The gun may not possess the capability. (Poss. a cost-saving move.)

The VF-31A/B Kairos achieves a high count of missiles by using integral mini-missile launchers and a pod that could mount a huge payload of those, a medium sized payload and a beampod, or special bombs or missiles when/if used as a bomb bay.

That's premature. We don't know how many missiles the VF-31 actually carries under normal conditions. The leg-mounted micro-missile launchers don't appear very capacious... certainly not as much so as the YF-29's, and the missile compartment in the back of the legs looks to be no bigger than the VF-19's.

A "huge" payload would be over a hundred missiles internally or pylon-mounted... and it isn't looking like the VF-31 is gonna get there.

The VF-31A/B achieves all this with a minimum of system redundancy, keeping TCO low, in a lightweight fighter, on par with a gunpod equipped VF-25.

But at the expense of operational endurance... which is not an issue for the other 5th Generation fighters to date.

[Sandman]

I get the idea of it since SK really can't have individually customized paint jobs (something the sponsors would want) on NUNS fighters, with the exception of the CAG fighters, as it detracts from the serious nature and standarizaton of Federal forces. Though, in publications, different fleets employ different paint schemes for their assigned fighter compliments.

Is this really a thing? There seemed to be a lot of custom jobs in the first series. Mind you most of them aren't as good as skull-1. I'm actually surprised MAcross hasn't done more custom schemes like you see in the master file books.

[Aries Turner]

So... it's fun technical tidbit time again!

I´m loving those already.

the gunpod's line of fire is obstructed in fighter mode (it has to drop down to fire)

You know you could have dropped this before and make this conversation shorter. Never mind: it is fun as it is. For me, at least.

Chainguns? I'm gonna assume you mean "beam machine guns".

No, I mean both. I am under the impression that it is stated somewhere that VF-25 and maybe VF-27 mount chainguns OR beam machine guns, depending on mission needs. Those are even given different designation when equipped.

Unlike the beam gun pod of the VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30, the VF-31's beam gun pod has not demonstrated any increased-firepower mode for anti-ship use.

True. It is also true that VF-31 power output is not significantly lower than VF-27 output (4312.5KN vs 5508KN. The VF-31 figure include that 15% overboost), so if that beampod is unable to manage that kind of power levels, some other beampod could be equipped instead.

About the mini-missiles, pointing out we don´t know if a pod is there on the design table to launch a whole Q-Rau Itano Circus salvo is... pointless. We already know there is a pod to transport priority personnel, so why not?

Edited August 19, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Master Dex]

My entertainment on this forum is partly waiting for Seto to post anything in detail. It is always fun to see him get into the gritty details. Having self-translated archives of facts to back up his stuff is of course the boon to his ability to do this, and it is why I pretty much straight up ask him things now.

This entire debate though, despite being able to be solved by facts as such, seems more or less about whether the VF-31 is actually an all around better fighter than other 5th generation models. Not counting the YF/VF-24 which is likely Superman compared to other 5th Gen's Captain America (yes I am comparing between DC and Marvel, get over it), and being considerate to remove YF-29 and YF-30 for their obvious advantages (and because neither can be mass produced as is), this really comes down to comparing the VF-25, VF-27, and VF-31

(side note, did anyone do anything with the number 28? I know Olympia fielded a YF-26 that lost to the YF-25, but I've heard nothing of any 28s)

The VF-27 is so heavily specialized for a particular type, cyborg pilots almost exclusively are needed to fly it, that it also is technically not a fair assessment for general use.

So really, for comparing 5th gen mass produced VFs we just have to decide if the VF-31 is better or on par with the VF-25. I personally find the design more aesthetically pleasing, and the YF-30 inspired transformation scheme seems more robust to me. I do not recall if VF-25 has any internal missiles without super parts or not. There is one questionable scene in Frontier ep.1 that implies it, but it is never really seen to fire any without extra parts. So the 31s light missile count does give that an advantage perhaps.

I think I am more with Seto on the weapon load out placement choices. Arm cannons should be beam weapons since we know it works. A real question worth asking anymore is with the increasing ubiquity of smaller beam weapons and now heavy quantum beam gunpods, is there really much advantage to a projectile gun much anymore? Maybe as a backup? The 29 sure doesn't seem to be hampered much with only its hip guns (I know there is a slight curiosity on if the ES-25As are the hip guns same as on the 25 or if the 29 has some weird head guns, but I'm more inclined to think Chronicle made a typo there). And to credit the hip guns on the 25 can be either projectile ES-25A or the ROV-25 beam guns so the VF-25 can choose to go all beams save for its gunpod.

(Branching off there, assuming the 29s hip guns are the ES-25A as makes sense, though it is not stated, it can probably mount the ROV-25s as well.)

I can see uses for a traditional projectile gunpod still perhaps... and the modular weapons pack of the 31 does imply the option that a pack could exist that outfits it with a projectile gunpod instead of a beam gunpod. However, we have seen absolutely no other packs fielded by Xaos so we can't really confirm that yet to my knowledge. Personally, I'd just keep a dedicated gunpod of some time like the 25 has and then still use the modular pack however useful for a mission, whether with additional beam gun or otherwise (such a configuration would be closer to the YF-30's setup).

So overall, the VF-31 has a great modular system that gives it flexibility, but the 31s used by Xaos seem to squander that flexibility, partly because their mission doesn't call for it (thus wasting the potential of the fighter), and because they probably don't have access to all the things that Brisingr NUNS would use once they adopt VF-31's (which hampers them just as much) again because their mission is different from the military.

SMS on the other hand was sold as doing the military job without red tape and liability, so they got all the toys Frontier NUNS would also use and they used it all very eagerly and effectively (and they are also likely just a better run organization). So SMS may have had a less modular VF in the 25 but they utilized is way better than Xaos uses the 31.

Pros and cons weighed, the 31 can be a better investment if used to its potential, it is currently not. At the same time, the 25 seems to have some smarter design choices on it. More Shinsei blood will do that though, Surya Aerospace is still new to the game after all.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Master Dex

[NightmarePlus]

My entertainment on this forum is partly waiting for Seto to post anything in detail. It is always fun to see him get into the gritty details. Having self-translated archives of facts to back up his stuff is of course the boon to his ability to do this, and it is why I pretty much straight up ask him things now.

This entire debate though, despite being able to be solved by facts as such, seems more or less about whether the VF-31 is actually an all around better fighter than other 5th generation models. Not counting the YF/VF-24 which is likely Superman compared to other 5th Gen's Captain America (yes I am comparing between DC and Marvel, get over it), and being considerate to remove YF-29 and YF-30 for their obvious advantages (and because neither can be mass produced as is), this really comes down to comparing the VF-25, VF-27, and VF-31

(side note, did anyone do anything with the number 28? I know Olympia fielded a YF-26 that lost to the YF-25, but I've heard nothing of any 28s)

The VF-27 is so heavily specialized for a particular type, cyborg pilots almost exclusively are needed to fly it, that it also is technically not a fair assessment for general use.

So really, for comparing 5th gen mass produced VFs we just have to decide if the VF-31 is better or on par with the VF-25. I personally find the design more aesthetically pleasing, and the YF-30 inspired transformation scheme seems more robust to me. I do not recall if VF-25 has any internal missiles without super parts or not. There is one questionable scene in Frontier ep.1 that implies it, but it is never really seen to fire any without extra parts. So the 31s light missile count does give that an advantage perhaps.

I think I am more with Seto on the weapon load out placement choices. Arm cannons should be beam weapons since we know it works. A real question worth asking anymore is with the increasing ubiquity of smaller beam weapons and now heavy quantum beam gunpods, is there really much advantage to a projectile gun much anymore? Maybe as a backup? The 29 sure doesn't seem to be hampered much with only its hip guns (I know there is a slight curiosity on if the ES-25As are the hip guns same as on the 25 or if the 29 has some weird head guns, but I'm more inclined to think Chronicle made a typo there). And to credit the hip guns on the 25 can be either projectile ES-25A or the ROV-25 beam guns so the VF-25 can choose to go all beams save for its gunpod.

(Branching off there, assuming the 29s hip guns are the ES-25A as makes sense, though it is not stated, it can probably mount the ROV-25s as well.)

I can see uses for a traditional projectile gunpod still perhaps... and the modular weapons pack of the 31 does imply the option that a pack could exist that outfits it with a projectile gunpod instead of a beam gunpod. However, we have seen absolutely no other packs fielded by Xaos so we can't really confirm that yet to my knowledge. Personally, I'd just keep a dedicated gunpod of some time like the 25 has and then still use the modular pack however useful for a mission, whether with additional beam gun or otherwise (such a configuration would be closer to the YF-30's setup).

So overall, the VF-31 has a great modular system that gives it flexibility, but the 31s used by Xaos seem to squander that flexibility, partly because their mission doesn't call for it (thus wasting the potential of the fighter), and because they probably don't have access to all the things that Brisingr NUNS would use once they adopt VF-31's (which hampers them just as much) again because their mission is different from the military.

SMS on the other hand was sold as doing the military job without red tape and liability, so they got all the toys Frontier NUNS would also use and they used it all very eagerly and effectively (and they are also likely just a better run organization). So SMS may have had a less modular VF in the 25 but they utilized is way better than Xaos uses the 31.

Pros and cons weighed, the 31 can be a better investment if used to its potential, it is currently not. At the same time, the 25 seems to have some smarter design choices on it. More Shinsei blood will do that though, Surya Aerospace is still new to the game after all.

I could be wrong, but i remember reading somewhere that the 28 was essentially Galaxy's answer to Frontier's 29.

[Master Dex]

I could be wrong, but i remember reading somewhere that the 28 was essentially Galaxy's answer to Frontier's 29.

It isn't listed anywhere though, including MMM, so it might just be a speculation or hearsay.

[Seto Kaiba]

I´m loving those already.

Stick around, it seems like every time I go looking for something in one book I'll end up finding four unrelated but interesting details I wasn't looking for... like how I noticed the thing about the VF-31 being 2-3 years from NUNS service in the Brisingr Alliance while I was looking for some exact words on the exact differences in equipment between the Kairos and Siegfried.

No, I mean both. I am under the impression that it is stated somewhere that VF-25 and maybe VF-27 mount chainguns OR beam machine guns, depending on mission needs. Those are even given different designation when equipped.

Oh, OK...I see where you were going with that. Yeah, the official spec has the VF-25 and VF-27's fixed-forward gunmounts on the outside of the main engine's intake as modular equipment. Initially they were Mauler 25mm beam machine gun systems, and were replaced with Remmington 25mm high-speed machine guns using enhanced armor-piercing ammo late in the Vajra war.

True. It is also true that VF-31 power output is not significantly lower than VF-27 output (4312.5KN vs 5508KN. The VF-31 figure include that 15% overboost), so if that beampod is unable to manage that kind of power levels, some other beampod could be equipped instead.

Actually, that got me thinking...

The VF-31's heavy quantum beam gunpod doesn't seem to have the "beam grenade" mode from the VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30 versions of the gunpod. I wonder if the designers at Surya Aerospace chose a model of gunpod without that function to adjust for the fact that the production model VF-31 Kairos is only powered by its two Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines. The fighters that do have beam grenade mode for their beam gunpods have two extra engines and/or a fold wave or fold dimensional resonance system supplying them with additional power from fold space.

The custom VF-31s from Xaos Valkyrie Works have a fold wave system, so Delta Flight may be capable of equipping a gunpod that can use beam grenade mode...

About the mini-missiles, pointing out we don´t know if a pod is there on the design table to launch a whole Q-Rau Itano Circus salvo is... pointless. We already know there is a pod to transport priority personnel, so why not?

The ordinance container is modular, but I don't believe we've seen one in the Delta Flight aresenal that is a missile container like the YF-30's. It's not beyond the realm of possibility, but it may interfere with the ability to also take the gun pod, since the missile container seems to be a bit bigger than the standard one Xaos uses.

My entertainment on this forum is partly waiting for Seto to post anything in detail. It is always fun to see him get into the gritty details. Having self-translated archives of facts to back up his stuff is of course the boon to his ability to do this, and it is why I pretty much straight up ask him things now.

At your service!

This entire debate though, despite being able to be solved by facts as such, seems more or less about whether the VF-31 is actually an all around better fighter than other 5th generation models.

Seems that way, yeah. I did an analysis of the design back when (IIRC it was RedWolf) specs first came to light for the VF-31 Siegfried. The VF-31 seems to be a lighter, but faster, aircraft than the VF-25. In light of now knowing it's a few years away from being the NUNS next main VF in Brisingr's forces, that bears out the theory that Brisingr is a bit stingy or possibly cash-strapped.

(side note, did anyone do anything with the number 28? I know Olympia fielded a YF-26 that lost to the YF-25, but I've heard nothing of any 28s)

Dat was me who originally mentioned it, mon.

The YF-28 is something alluded to in Macross the Ride, when characters ruminate on Macross Galaxy's illicit acquisition of the YF-29 specs... which they ultimately used to refine their final design for the VF-27. Whether they ever actually built a YF-28 is anyone's guess, it was believed to be the same kind of "hypervariable fighter" as the YF-29, though that may simply be pilot rumors getting around.

I do not recall if VF-25 has any internal missiles without super parts or not.

Nein... but six underwing pylons and two additional pylons on the wing glove is nothing to sneeze at.

It isn't listed anywhere though, including MMM, so it might just be a speculation or hearsay.

We didn't list it on M3 because it's an aircraft that may or may not actually exist. It's in-universe hearsay in Macross R, and its existence is not confirmed or denied. (Helpful, right? >_<) Edited August 19, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Zinjo]

Is this really a thing? There seemed to be a lot of custom jobs in the first series. Mind you most of them aren't as good as skull-1. I'm actually surprised MAcross hasn't done more custom schemes like you see in the master file books.

Actually it is. SDFM was a typical anime series that no one expected to explode as it had. So all the familiar tropes of the era, were employed like hero paint jobs for the fighters, a more Japancentric understanding of how international militaries work as a civil service type job like in Japan as opposed to a contracted military service period, etc... Gundam still does this to this day for the most part.

Starting in DYRL and fully embraced by Plus, Kawamori did change the aesthetic, probably as a result of his research for Plus (which didn't start out as a Macross story). Then the military became more recognizable to international audiences and the military equipment became more standardized. In M7 all the UNS forces were largely monochromatic in their color schemes, with the exception of the task force teams, Diamond Force, Emerald force, and the Jamming Birds. The Spec Ops Sound Force were given the individual hero color schemes.

This continued in MF where all the VF-171 of the NUNS were in a Navy Blue color scheme and only the PMC had individual hero colors, Even the VF-171EX, being a task force team had mainly monocromatic color schemes with the exception of the hero valks of Alto and Luca, which sported different color striping.

The difference now seen in publications, is that it appears each fleet uses its own color schemes for its military fighters. Maybe this is to easily identify aircraft from different task forces in joint fleet actions.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

In M7 all the UNS forces were largely monochromatic in their color schemes, with the exception of the task force teams, Diamond Force, Emerald force, and the Jamming Birds. The Spec Ops Sound Force were given the individual hero color schemes.

This continued in MF where all the VF-171 of the NUNS were in a Navy Blue color scheme and only the PMC had individual hero colors, Even the VF-171EX, being a task force team had mainly monocromatic color schemes with the exception of the hero valks of Alto and Luca, which sported different color striping.

I'm not so sure that's a matter of "military realism"... I think that probably has a lot more to do with the way that, from Macross Plus and Macross 7 on, the rank and file soldiers were increasingly "out of focus" in Macross shows. If you look at the main Macross 7 series, the rank and file UN Spacy fighters are all unifom and completely indistinguishable from one another... but the minute a main character is flying one as that character's main ride (e.g. Milia's VF-11C in TOP GAMLIN) suddenly the hero paintjobs are back. The same thing happened to Diamond Force. You had the mook VF-17 (white stripe), the "not quite a mook" one flown by Gamlin with a distinctive stripe (blue or yellow), and the full hero colors treatment for Milia's. The hero colors were back in full force when they upgraded to the VF-22 as well... the stock unit is navy blue, but Max's was powder blue, Milia's was red, and Gamlin's was a dark cyan.

Macross Zero did hero colors too. Shin's VF-0A and VF-0D had dramatically different color schemes from the stock models seen in other scenes, and of course Roy's was one of a kind. The same deal is all over the in-continuity video games as well.

Giving the unnamed mooks identical or low-detail aircraft is just a way to cut down on the burden of animating aircraft that are only around to go kaboom. It's especially helpful in computer animation, since they can just copy-paste the same damn CG model as many times as necessary... be it a dozen or a hundred. In Macross Zero, where they put a canopy name stencil on the mook model, this inadvertantly led to close-ups making it appear that the same guy (or maybe identical sextuplets who held the same rank) died five or six times in the OVA.

I would be prepared to bet money that if we ever manage to get a story where the main cast belongs to the actual military again, we'll see military aircraft with hero paintjobs again.

[trojan_gambit]

The animators did make mistakes when producing the VF-31 scenes. Here is a pic of the VF-31 with the hardpoint positions highlighted.

When they have hardpoints loaded, how the wings fold in Battroid mode ? As the natural folding direction is downward (= toward the hardpoints)

(Pic courtesy od Dalong)

[Seto Kaiba]

When they have hardpoints loaded, how the wings fold in Battroid mode ? As the natural folding direction is downward (= toward the hardpoints)

(Pic courtesy od Dalong)

I would assume that, like the VF-1 when carrying RMS-1's or UUM-7's, the answer is "they don't".

[Aries Turner]

There's an unspoken asterisk on your remark here... you're not personally aware of a Macross title depicting Queadluun-Raus being shot down by rookies, but just because you haven't seen a thing doesn't mean it hasn't happened. It happened fairly often in the Macross II timeline titles

Sorry, forgot this one. As Macross II happens (or not) way after VF-22, VF-25 and VF-31 are long time classics, around 2090 I think, it could be argued that by that time the Q-Rau performance was way surpassed.

[grigolosi]

When they have hardpoints loaded, how the wings fold in Battroid mode ? As the natural folding direction is downward (= toward the hardpoints)

(Pic courtesy od Dalong)

When any suspension pylon is loaded on a fighter or attack aircraft the SMS (Stores Management System) acknowledges this. Valkyries do have SMS as part of their delivery system, it is seen if you look at views of the up front control console in screenshots. Anyway along with the SMS system saying "hey there is something loaded there" the Valkyires AI also says "hey there is something on the wing because the SMS is all excited, when I reconfigure to Battroid I will have to limit the fold on the outer wing tip area". More than likely the wings won't fold or will fold very little in the situation where they are using pylons on the hardpoints as Seto pointed out. Modern fighters have systems like this to limit speed brakes from opening too wide on landing and for takeoff flight control positions. They are far simpler and use a combination of weight on wheels indication registering with the flight control computer and/or limit switches.

Edited August 20, 2016 by grigolosi

[RedWolf]

Sorry, forgot this one. As Macross II happens (or not) way after VF-22, VF-25 and VF-31 are long time classics, around 2090 I think, it could be argued that by that time the Q-Rau performance was way surpassed.

While Macross is metafiction Macross II has its own timeline.

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ja&u=https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%9E%E3%82%AF%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B9%E3%82%B7%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BA&usg=ALkJrhhpmGka40-IHunoc-W3cjOI3jy-Hw

"Macross II" version

After the SDF-2 MEGAROAD-01 starting in 2012, to infestation Zentraedi backbone fleet in 10 years every position in the earth, but reject defense network according to the song (Minmay defense). Earth civilization will reach the prosperity period, but born also tendency to overconfidence the power of culture.

2036 - Kamujin faction is guidance to, Nuerudo backbone fleet attack to disable the Minmay attack. Max, training troops eldest daughter Komiria Maria Genus et al belong of Milia and his wife sortie in the VF-1R. < "Macross 2036">

2037 - infestation Prado backbone fleet with again Kamujin sect. < " Macross eternal love song ">

2054 years

May 6 - Macross-class immigrant ship Million Star, is sunk in Roguesu core fleet of attack.

December - to intercept to center the Buritai fleet and Minmay attack at on Pluto orbit, repel Roguesu fleet.

2072 year - VF-2 Valkyrie II-Series Unit rollout.

2081 years - for space VF-2SS deployment start.

2086 year - VF-2JA deployment start for the atmosphere.

2090s - different races and Zentraedi Marduk infestation is. With the advent of the forces that song does not Spoken verge of mankind again fate. Marduk song Miko-Ishtar by the Earth's song is transmitted to the Marduk side, Marduk troops to it machine is away from the authoritarian leader-ings, to overthrow it. Then, they tied the peace between the Earth and Marduk. < " Macross II -LOVERS AGAIN- ">

Basically Macross II's history or Big West contnuity is:

Macross DYRL

Macross Flashback 2012

Macross 2036

Macross Eternal Love Song

Macross II Lovers Again

This timeline didn't have Shinsei Industries nor General Galaxy to make VFs. The "Father" of the VF-1 Dr. Takachihoff survives Space War 1 and with other engineers created Takachihoff Company. The VF-1R series and VF-X-4 Siren were the VFs prior to the Zentrad invasion of 2054. After that they stole a Factory Satellite that produced also Nousjadeul-Ger Battle Suit which lead to the development of the VF-XX Zentran Valkyrie in the 2060's. With technology from the new Factory Satellite captured new ships and the VF-2 series were developed.

http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.org/MCRgoods/06MacrossaRelatedGames1.php

Entering the 1990's, the shooting game "Super Dimensional Fortress Macross 2036" (Mesaiya), which was linked to the 1992 OVA "Super Dimensional Fortress Macross II -Lovers Again-", was sold for the PC engine. Together with the sequel that was sold in the same year, "Super Dimensional Fortress Macross: Eternal Love Song" (this was a simulation RPG), the developments of the original stories earned a favourable reputation among fans.

PC Engine

Super Dimensional Fortress Macross -Eternal Love Song-

Data¦: 1992 / Mesaiya

Summary/Story

The first tactical simulation Macross game. It depicts the struggle of Unified Forces Moon Base newcomer pilot Kiryuu Hayato, who was swallowed up in the sudden attack of the Zentraadi Forces and the Meltraandi Forces in 2037. In addition to being able to operate the VF-X-4, a great number of original Zentraadi and Meltrandi Powered Suits appear.

[Aries Turner]

While Macross is metafiction Macross II has its own timeline.

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ja&u=https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/マクロスシリーズ&usg=ALkJrhhpmGka40-IHunoc-W3cjOI3jy-Hw

I am OK with VF development achieving parity with the Q-Rau around 2036 in an alternate timeline. A little earlier than Kawamori timeline, but that is OK. What I fail to understand is how it could mean the Q-Rau are not the badasses we are shown they are?

Or why build the Q-Rhea if a VF-22 was enough? (*)

(*) It may be a cultural thing, as zentrans seemed not so fond of the Q-Rhea to the point to demand Regults with select Q-Rhea systems or Glaugs with Q-Rhea based arms instead (and two main guns)..

Edited August 20, 2016 by Aries Turner

[JB0]

As has been previously noted, one of the biggest problems with the Rau is survivability, a trait it shares with most zentradi mecha. The cockpit is a disproportionately large part of the machine(even moreso in the Rau than most) and armor is light, so damage is far more likely to result in severe pilot injury.

Also, most of what we've seen with the Rau is not "normal."

We've seen Lap'Lamiz's elites go out and curbstomp some noobs. The Lap'Lamiz fleet was identified in the TV series as a uniquely skilled force, and is thus not representative.

And we've seen Chlore, but she was Millia's rival, and thus an elite among the elites. She and her wingmates are ALSO not representative.

The Rau just doesn't get enough screen time, and when it does it is only shown in the hands of elites. It does wonders for the machine's reputation.

It is, of course, possible the meltrandi forces are generally more skilled than their male counterparts. I happen to like this interpretation, but I do not believe there is any canon evidence for it, and the existence of all-female main fleets* would imply the opposite.

*Even if DYRL's Lap'Lamiz fleet is "fictional", Chlore's fleet is ALSO all-female and has none of the ambiguity associated with Space War 1.

[RedWolf]

I am OK with VF development achieving parity with the Q-Rau around 2036 in an alternate timeline. A little earlier than Kawamori timeline, but that is OK. What I fail to understand is how it could mean the Q-Rau are not the badasses we are shown they are?

Not all Meltrandi are aces. Watch DYRL there are Q-Rau fodder as well. For example instead of a Zentradi dying out of a Regult we see a Meltran die out of her Queadluun-Rau after being shot. Plus VF development in Macross II is actually slower than the main timeline. The YF-24 family is the fifth generation VFs. In Macross II the VF-XX is generation 1.5 VF and the VF2SS and VF-2JA are generation 2 VFs. In the Macross II continuity there are several Queadluun like mecha that we haven't seen in the main timeline.

[Zinjo]

Not all Meltrandi are aces. Watch DYRL there are Q-Rau fodder as well. For example instead of a Zentradi dying out of a Regult we see a Meltran die out of her Queadluun-Rau after being shot. Plus VF development in Macross II is actually slower than the main timeline. The YF-24 family is the fifth generation VFs. In Macross II the VF-XX is generation 1.5 VF and the VF2SS and VF-2JA are generation 2 VFs. In the Macross II continuity there are several Queadluun like mecha that we haven't seen in the main timeline.

Design1.jpg~original.jpg

149uzd5.jpg

149uzoy.jpg

I won't even comment on the M2 part of the discussion since this is Seto's area of expertise, being his baby for a long time now...

Edited August 20, 2016 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

Sorry, forgot this one. As Macross II happens (or not) way after VF-22, VF-25 and VF-31 are long time classics, around 2090 I think, it could be argued that by that time the Q-Rau performance was way surpassed.

Ah, no... Macross II: Lovers Again and its related titles (incl. 2 PC Engine games, Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song) are their own alternate universe from the main Macross chronology. In the Macross II timeline, technological advancement charts a different and somewhat less bombastic course.

To the Macross II timeline, the Meltrandi Queadluun-Rau was simply no more intimidating than a Zentradi Nousjadeul-Ger. Only the exceptional skill that an ace pilot had could make one a serious threat on its own, as was the case with aces Milia 639 and Misty Klaus. In the hands of a grunt, they were shot down in great numbers by the UN Spacy's equally-grunt-operated VF-1 Valkyries, VF-1改 Refined Valkyries, VF-4 Sirens, etc.

This same principle of "pilot skills counts at least as much as specs" works for Macross Delta as well. Like how we see that, despite having what's effectively the latest VF on the block, Mirage can have trouble with VF-171's flown by Var-afflicted troops because she's an indifferent pilot.

While Macross is metafiction Macross II has its own timeline.

Great googly moogly! Google Translate made a mess of that.

Basically Macross II's history or Big West contnuity is:

Macross DYRL

Macross Flashback 2012

Macross 2036

Macross Eternal Love Song

Macross II Lovers Again

Just a brief correction... the Macross II chronology, for reasons never concretely explained, pushed the Megaroad-01's launch date back to 2014. So Macross: Flashback 2012's events "happen", but they happen two years later. This is covered in a bewildering little entry in Bandai Entertainment Bible 51.

This timeline didn't have Shinsei Industries nor General Galaxy to make VFs. The "Father" of the VF-1 Dr. Takachihoff survives Space War 1 and with other engineers created Takachihoff Company.

To be fair, the Takachihof Corporation and Shinsei Industry have rather a lot in common... both being mergers of Stonewell, Bellcom, and Shinnakasu. Though Takachihof also absorbed some personnel from the destroid manufacturers. They hold the same kind of pseudo-monopoly on VF design that Shinsei had for much of main timeline Macross history.

I am OK with VF development achieving parity with the Q-Rau around 2036 in an alternate timeline.

Happened a good deal earlier than that, honestly... the Queadluun-Rau was not any kind of uber-powerful mecha, and the stock VF-1's did well enough against them in the First Space War. The VF-4 Siren and VF-1改 Refined Valkyrie which were introduced in the late 2010's kind of sealed the deal.

Exactly when the UN Spacy in the main Macross chronology considers the Q-Rau to officially be "at parity" with their fighters isn't clear, but there could be an excellent case made for somewhere in the 3rd or 4th fighter generation.

What I fail to understand is how it could mean the Q-Rau are not the badasses we are shown they are?

In short, it's not the mecha that's badass... it's the PILOT. Milia's team is the best of the best. She was the fleetwide ace in both timelines, so she was taking a mecha that was better than the average Zentradi unit but not by much and using it to achieve incredible feats of destruction.

It's like in Macross VF-X2, when Mariafokina Barnrose beats a VF-19 in her VF-1X through superior piloting skill.

Or why build the Q-Rhea if a VF-22 was enough? (*)(*)

Actually, there's a straightforward official answer to that one... which is one of the very first things said about the Queadluun-Rhea in Macross Chronicle.

Y'see... the UN Forces kept a bunch of Queadluun-Rau units in service after the First Space War ended. The reason the Queadluun-Rhea came to be was that, after two decades of beating on their limited supply of Queadluun-Rau units, they had essentially run out of repair parts to keep the fleet in service. They captured and restored the factory satellite as best they could, and General Galaxy was awarded a contract to develop a derivative of the Queadluun-Rau more in line with the UN Forces' design ethos on survivability and defensive ability.

One way they dealt with Zentradi who weren't comfortable integrating fully into human civilization was to offer them military service with the NUNS Marines, so they needed to keep the Marines supplied with gear they'd feel comfortable using. From Delta, they've clearly made similar improvements to the Regult and Glaug series battle pods as well.

Plus VF development in Macross II is actually slower than the main timeline. The YF-24 family is the fifth generation VFs. In Macross II the VF-XX is generation 1.5 VF and the VF2SS and VF-2JA are generation 2 VFs.

Actually, the VF-XX is also a Family 2 design. It was initially the prototype for the integration of advancements recovered from the Flemenmik factory satellite, but was approved for service on its own merits during testing.

(I hesitate to use the word "Generation" to describe the odd development pace in Macross II's timeline. It comes in fits and starts, rather than in smooth progression.)

In the Macross II continuity there are several Queadluun like mecha that we haven't seen in the main timeline.

That's not even all of them.

In Macross II's timeline it's strongly indicated that the Zentradi and Meltrandi forces have a LOT of equipment that didn't appear in the original TV show and DYRL movie. In some cases, it appears to be that some fleets just use somewhat different mecha from each other or that some fleets have lost the ability to manufacture certain types of mecha. In the notable case of the Migg Pitt, that's something Quamzin's people developed on their own, independent of a factory satellite.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Master Dex]

When it comes to explaining why Q-Raus are not actually all that amazing, we can simply explain the reason of why almost all Zentradi mecha before SW1 are somewhat lackluster. Zentradi don't design their own stuff, they don't innovate, they don't even know how to repair. They use designs that the Factory Satellites are programmed to build that have been in service since the days of the early Protoculture wars, or at least by the end of the Supervision Army war before the Protoculture finally died out. So they are just re-using old designs which while well made, have basically not improved in over 500,000 years. This means all Zentradi success is based on their battle acumen, and use of superior numbers and firepower. The fact that certain Q-Raus are seen to look super powerful can only be because of their exceptional pilots.

The fact is, until the UN Spacey got to redesigning and upgrading it later on, Zentradi tech was advanced, but it is also ancient and doesn't scale well with human design innovation which made improvements to designs as SW1 went on even. Don't get me wrong, humanity was still severely under-equipped to handle the Zentradi and never stood a chance really (the survival they got at all is really a stroke of extreme luck that culture shock made such an impact) but mostly due to Zentradi being forever warriors and also they had millions of ships each with tons of battle units at their disposal. It simply did not matter if their tech was old and clunky with those numbers.

In a one of one though, Earth fighters generally fared pretty well each time, almost superbly. Hikaru wasn't much of an ace pilot really, he was a lucky guy. He did good enough but he was pretty new to it all compared to Focker with his years of experience. Hikaru still wiped up many Zentradi though. Max of course was newer but Max is also a genius and a natural so he doesn't really count.

[Aries Turner]

In fairness, Earth plans went surprisingly well. The VF-1 was on par with Aerial Battlepods and Regults. What went wrong, horribly wrong, was that the Macross was not one of their main battleships, but one of the smallest destroyers. Earth entire fleet was too small, sitting ducks against mostly superior firepower, except some sinkings by reaction weaponry. Of course we now know Zentrans never repaired or even understood the technology they were using. They still moped most of the galaxy, by sheer numbers but also because after 500.000 years, their mechas didn´t fall so far behind whatever their pitiful opposition throwed against them in vain attempts of survival. The Protoculture and their mind control gone, the Vajra and Protodevilns mostly dormant, they hadn´t hard opposition for millennia.

To war, miclones! Victory for the Zentraedi!

Edited August 20, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] The fact that certain Q-Raus are seen to look super powerful can only be because of their exceptional pilots.

As noted earlier, that principle is a pretty common staple of Macross's stories in the wake of the original series from Macross 7 on.

The (New) UN Spacy has been suffering the reverse of this since the Macross 7 series moved the focus away from the military. Fans come away with a bad impression of the VF-11 Thunderbolt or VF-171 Nightmare Plus despite them both having long and distinguished service records in-universe because most of what we're shown in animation is the one conflict where they were outclassed by the enemy and got their butts kicked. It's especially bad for western fance, since they miss out on a lot of the manga and serialized novels and so on where some of the damage is undone. They only get to see the VF-11 get love in that first minute or so of Macross Plus Ep1, and the Nightmare Plus as a bad guy's mecha in Macross 30.

The Queadluun-Rau looks formidable because it appears so infrequently outside of the Macross II timeline, and every major main timeline appearance's action focuses almost exclusively on a super-ace pilot like Milia, Chlore, or Angers 672.

Macross Delta hasn't been a kind mistress to the VF-31, considering it hasn't really let Xaos win a fight yet. The Aerial Knights have kicked Xaos's forces around every single time, and only left Xaos's forces alive because of shenanigans... like Heinz having a strictly enforced bedtime or Roid being an incredible sadist. It's actually done a bit to raise the VF-171's stock, as a result of Var'd VF-171 pilots posing a serious threat to Xaos's 5th Gen VF-31 despite the massive performance disparity because of their training and their Var-induced aggression.

When we finally have a more complete picture of the total service history of the VF-31, that picture may change... as it slowly is for the VF-171.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[grigolosi]

"Quality of the box matters little, Success depends upon the man sitting in it."

Manfred Von Ritchtofen

"Only in the spirit of attack, Born in a brave heart, will bring success to any fighter, no matter how highly developed in it may be."

Adolf Galland

[Ghostbear0]

The battle does not necessarily go to the strong nor the race to the swift...... But that's the way to bet.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Ghostbear0

[Seto Kaiba]

The battle does not necessarily go to the strong nor the race to the swift...... But that's the way to bet.

In Macross, that's often the way to bet if you intend to lose the bet.

The writers love an underdog, and because Earth is almost invariably at a disadvantage in any new Macross story you'll seldom find a dog as under as that one.

Of late, it's been the Windermereans benefitting from the underdog status, with their less-advanced variable fighters spanking the hell out of the NUNS and Xaos's finest through the sheer quality of their pilots.