Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[squaresphere]

They could, but the drones are re-charged by the Valks engine output, the Cheyenne doesn't appear to have the same type of power plant.

That's true, the Cheyenne would probably need a powerplant upgrade but it would be much smaller than what's on a VF. Heck I don't know how advance battery tech is in Macross but that could be used instead. Cheyennes could keep their cheaper engines and just rely on the battery to repower the drones a time or two.

[Seto Kaiba]

So does that mean a Durandal is more capable in resonating with fold waves than a Seigfried or is it the size and purity that make it potent while the Siegfried and Chronos use a more efficient design without the need for such a large crystal?

It's hard to say, given that so little is actually given in terms of specifics about how the fold wave system and fold wave projectors work.

I would assume that, given that a fold wave system is necessary to make fold wave projectors work, the fighter with the more extensive fold wave system probably would have superior fold wave projector output. As far as we know, the YF-29 Durandal tops that list with four super-high quality "philosopher's stone" fold quartz nodes in its fold wave system (1 per engine).

Like the Chronos, the Siegfried seems to keep its fold quartz nodes inside the airframe, but it's using the less advanced fold wave system instead of a fold dimensional resonance system like the Chronos had. The YF-29 actually has them visible on the outside of the hull, one on each outer engine and one just above the wing root.

It would also establish there are smaller independent ships like Akusho accompanying fleets.

We've known that for a long time... to a certain extent, those smaller habitat ships seem to have evolved into the support infrastructure ships that accompanied the Macross-7 fleet.

Hmm, can you go over the difference? I find this utterly confusing.

The "Philosopher's Stone" refers to super-high purity, extremely large (~1000ct) cuts of fold quartz that can only be obtained from the bodies of certain types of Vajra. Later productions added the caveat that suitably large and pure pieces of fold quartz can sometimes be found in Protoculture ruins. Apparently building a fold wave system requires multiple fold quartz gems at Philosopher's Stone levels of size and purity to work, seemingly one for crystal for each engine. (The YF-29 has four.)

The fold wave projectors can use smaller, or less pure, pieces of fold quartz which are a bit less difficult (by which I mean "less life-threatening") to obtain.

They could, but the drones are re-charged by the Valks engine output, the Cheyenne doesn't appear to have the same type of power plant.

Yeah, one way Destroids are economized for production in large volumes is they use a single reactor (or a single main reactor with a low-power backup). That's not to say that Destroids can't (or haven't) been upgraded with better reactors capable of utilizing high-draw systems like pin-point barriers on a trial basis... Edited August 12, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[JB0]

It seems to me like it should be economically feasible to build a destroid around an engine similar in spec to an older Valk engine. Build a destroid around a VF-11 engine and it'd be a monster in its field while still being far cheaper than a modern Valk.

While the pun was not intended, that seems to be exactly what they did with the Konig Monster. Though the VF-11 was in regular service when the Konig was introduced, so it was not cheap. And the Konig in Frontier was apparently upgraded with VF-25-class energy armor, so it is STILL not cheap.

The joys of filling a niche the VFs can't, your machine still gets catered to while all the other destroids are kicked into the gutter.

But imagine, say, a Defender or Tomahawk getting the Konig treatment. Not "made into a variable vehicle", but "redesigned using modern technology". They'd be exceptional machines within their respective niches. (Even if one of those niches is "anti-aircraft turret")

What they HAVE done is update the Cheyenne to use the same class of power plants as the original SDF Destroids, and then used it as a jack-of-all-trades ground device. It does most of the Tomahawk's job, a bit of the Defender's job, and has adorable little wheels for when you gotta go fast(a feature which would've been very useful on the Defender).

...

And since the Cheyenne already HAS a CG model, they will update the Cheyenne again the next time they need a new destroid instead of making a new mech for a minor part. Destroid fans will suffer forever!

[RedWolf]

But imagine, say, a Defender or Tomahawk getting the Konig treatment. Not "made into a variable vehicle", but "redesigned using modern technology". They'd be exceptional machines within their respective niches. (Even if one of those niches is "anti-aircraft turret")

Macross Galaxy NUNS has that ADR-04-MK XV Super Defender.

Macross Frontier Wings of Goodbye novel has a modern Octos bis at Alcatraz island.

Macross VF-X2 has the Annabella Lasiodora destroid and the Black Rainbow destroid Gjagravan-Va

The VA-3 Invader though is said to be built like a destroid.

Edited August 13, 2016 by RedWolf

[JB0]

I so wanna see that Super Defender in an anime.

[Mommar]

I wanna see that Super Defender as a Hi-Metal toy in my hands.

[Seto Kaiba]

It seems to me like it should be economically feasible to build a destroid around an engine similar in spec to an older Valk engine. Build a destroid around a VF-11 engine and it'd be a monster in its field while still being far cheaper than a modern Valk.

Maybe so, but its utility in the field is gonna be a lot lower than a Valkyrie's, and the cost'll be higher than the average Destroid's. The whole selling point of Destroids is that they're dirt cheap (old tech materials for the original series suggest the Mk.VI Tomahawk was only marginally more expensive than an inflation-adjusted M1 Abrams MBT) and therefore you can build loads of them.

While the pun was not intended, that seems to be exactly what they did with the Konig Monster. Though the VF-11 was in regular service when the Konig was introduced, so it was not cheap. And the Konig in Frontier was apparently upgraded with VF-25-class energy armor, so it is STILL not cheap.

The joys of filling a niche the VFs can't, your machine still gets catered to while all the other destroids are kicked into the gutter.

Well, that's actually the reason most Destroids went away... the niche they offered could be filled pretty easily by a VF, especially one equipped with an Armored Pack.

The Konig Monster was pretty much the sole example of "we can't have a regular VF do this"... and SMS's attempts to make the Konig more battlefield-worthy for the 2050's was RUINOUSLY expensive, though undeniably effective. They gave it the same armor material as the VF-25's Armored Pack, which is so pricy that the stock VF-25 only uses it for the forearm shield and the Armored Pack itself is restricted to ace pilots only.

But imagine, say, a Defender or Tomahawk getting the Konig treatment. Not "made into a variable vehicle", but "redesigned using modern technology". They'd be exceptional machines within their respective niches. (Even if one of those niches is "anti-aircraft turret")

The Super Defender aside, there was a terrorist group in Macross M3 that did that with an old Mk.II Monster series unit... they upgraded its reactor and equipped it with a barrier system to make it more resilient.

[Zinjo]

Maybe so, but its utility in the field is gonna be a lot lower than a Valkyrie's, and the cost'll be higher than the average Destroid's. The whole selling point of Destroids is that they're dirt cheap (old tech materials for the original series suggest the Mk.VI Tomahawk was only marginally more expensive than an inflation-adjusted M1 Abrams MBT) and therefore you can build loads of them.

Well, that's actually the reason most Destroids went away... the niche they offered could be filled pretty easily by a VF, especially one equipped with an Armored Pack.

That makes little sense to me.

The Valks are more expensive trans-atmospheric aircraft. Yes they can transform, but are not at all suited for extended ground warfare and did I mention they were expensive?

If that war doctrine were viable, then most current world governments would be dumping their armor in favor of aircraft, which is not the case.

For a space navy they have little use for destroids, but so are tanks in any navy.

Marine units and terrestrial ground based Armed forces would still need and use Destroid units and yes they are "cheaper" than valks, which is why they would be used. We haven't seen any need for destroid units since the Great Space war since all subsequent Macross shows are based in space. MD is the first in about 30 years that has dealt with any sort of terrestrial conflict and the lack of any sort of destroid presence is noticable especially considering the age of the colonies.

The UNS deployment of Destroids could be seen as arguably effective (as far as we had seen in the show) during the Great Space War and the combat data from those encounters would serve later generations of the units. Certainly some lines would be dropped, but I am sure more than just a Chayenne type would have survived as production models in a logical universe. Apparently in universe, the VF-1 was one of the worst VF's the fly into combat, but yet they still developed more...

Having a single type of weapons system in your military arsenal on a galactic scale is senseless to me.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

That makes little sense to me.

You've got some false assumptions in here, so that may be part of why...

The Valks are more expensive trans-atmospheric aircraft. Yes they can transform, but are not at all suited for extended ground warfare and did I mention they were expensive?

Valkyries are expensive, yes... but they're also markedly more versatile than Destroids, and at least as resilient (if not more so). Properly equipped, they can also bring much more firepower to bear.

I'll confess I have no idea where you've come up with the idea that Valkyries are not suited for extended periods of land warfare. Not only is Battroid mode explicitly and repeatedly identified as a mode intended for land warfare use in practically every Macross publication to discuss the three-mode configuration, there's nothing to indicate that they aren't perfectly suited to operating on the ground for as long as their fuel holds out (hundreds of hours). We've seen plenty of examples of VFs acting as ground forces in Macross, especially for patrol and security purposes going all the way back to the original series. Macross Delta's titular main unit even uses a VF specifically optimized for ground combat inside cities.

Marine units and terrestrial ground based Armed forces would still need and use Destroid units and yes they are "cheaper" than valks, which is why they would be used. We haven't seen any need for destroid units since the Great Space war since all subsequent Macross shows are based in space. MD is the first in about 30 years that has dealt with any sort of terrestrial conflict and the lack of any sort of destroid presence is noticable especially considering the age of the colonies.

Actually, until Macross Frontier and Macross Delta showed us emigrant forces using refurbished old-model destroids for their ground forces, the general line was that Destroids had gone the way of the dinosaur and been replaced by Valkyries and more conventional armored fighting vehicles. It was only Macross II: Lovers Again that showed the UN Forces still using Destroids in the decades following the First Space War.

If Destroids are still viable/practical for ground forces, one has to wonder why there have been no new models of destroid developed in the last half-century... and why airbases on planets seem to prefer using VFs for their ground patrols instead of destroids. The only times we've seen destroids in action in later decades was either as targets on the practice range, or damn near ancient models used by emigrant forces which chose them for special reasons... like Frontier wanting a mecha to operate inside its dome system without ruining the pavement. Al Shahal seems to have been the only world in the Brisingr cluster to use them, and they got pasted pretty damn quick by the Marines and their Zentradi mecha.

The UNS deployment of Destroids could be seen as arguably effective (as far as we had seen in the show) during the Great Space War and the combat data from those encounters would serve later generations of the units. Certainly some lines would be dropped, but I am sure more than just a Chayenne type would have survived as production models in a logical universe. Apparently in universe, the VF-1 was one of the worst VF's the fly into combat, but yet they still developed more...

Having a single type of weapons system in your military arsenal on a galactic scale is senseless to me.

Effective? Maybe. Effectively unnecessary? Pretty much.

The problem with destroid practicality is that, for what the New UN Forces normally expects to fight, if the battle in space has been lost then the war is lost. The Zentradi won't bother with a planetary invasion, they just bombard the surface into a sterile desert and go about their business. Mecha in general aren't particularly well-suited to fighting miclone troops, so if they're fighting other human forces arriving from orbit that'll mean the most likely thing the enemy will send is... you guessed it... VFs. That makes VFs for ground troops more practical for defense, since they can intercept the enemy before they reach urban areas and fight equally well on the ground and in the air. Mobility is king on the Macross battlefield, and destroids just don't have that.

[RedWolf]

Actually, until Macross Frontier and Macross Delta showed us emigrant forces using refurbished old-model destroids for their ground forces, the general line was that Destroids had gone the way of the dinosaur and been replaced by Valkyries and more conventional armored fighting vehicles. It was only Macross II: Lovers Again that showed the UN Forces still using Destroids in the decades following the First Space War.

If Destroids are still viable/practical for ground forces, one has to wonder why there have been no new models of destroid developed in the last half-century... and why airbases on planets seem to prefer using VFs for their ground patrols instead of destroids. The only times we've seen destroids in action in later decades was either as targets on the practice range, or damn near ancient models used by emigrant forces which chose them for special reasons... like Frontier wanting a mecha to operate inside its dome system without ruining the pavement. Al Shahal seems to have been the only world in the Brisingr cluster to use them, and they got pasted pretty damn quick by the Marines and their Zentradi mecha.

Maybe that is the thing. We are getting presented the Spacy and Airforce branches of UN/New UN Forces not the Marines not Navy.

Up until Macross Delta we thought they stopped using the Regult as it can be a death trap. Mobile weapons like the Annabella Lasiodora and Gjagravan-Va can be classified as destroids, walking multi-legged tanks much like the Anti-UN's Gustaf.

[trojan_gambit]

I think in the legacy warfare, the Destroids could be the backbone of the fighting forces. But with the emergence of space warfare, the lack of speed,agility & versatility renders them more suited to defense purpose.

I would like to think the destroids as mobile weapon platforms that you can move around the spaceship depending on the defensive strategy. Daedalus attack also involves lots of destroid. They are certainly better than fixed weapon turrets.

Related to this non-transformable machine, I also would like to see some non-3-changer mecha in Macross, maybe 2-changer ?

Konig monster is one of the machine that I think would be suited as aircraft-gerwalk only, no purpose for Battroid mode (as far as I can see).

[Seto Kaiba]

Maybe that is the thing. We are getting presented the Spacy and Airforce branches of UN/New UN Forces not the Marines not Navy.

Thus far, we've been presented with information about most of the branches of the (New) UN Forces... and all indications are that they mostly use the same equipment, though it seems like the planetside defense forces have largely taken a backseat to the space forces given the space-based focus of war.

Up until Macross Delta we thought they stopped using the Regult as it can be a death trap.

... since when? We see, right in the original series, that the UN Forces began producing the Regult for their own use shortly after capturing the Esbeliben AWDAP facility from the Zentradi. General Global himself toured the production line not long after its capture. Even Macross the Ride mentions (New) UN Forces-use Regults, and Frontier's backstory material mentions the (New) UN Forces keeping several other types of Zentradi mecha in service for decades after the war.

Mobile weapons like the Annabella Lasiodora and Gjagravan-Va can be classified as destroids, walking multi-legged tanks much like the Anti-UN's Gustaf.

Arguably... though it's worth noting that they were also not particularly successful designs, and weren't (New) UN Forces designs either.

I think in the legacy warfare, the Destroids could be the backbone of the fighting forces. But with the emergence of space warfare, the lack of speed,agility & versatility renders them more suited to defense purpose.

I would like to think the destroids as mobile weapon platforms that you can move around the spaceship depending on the defensive strategy. Daedalus attack also involves lots of destroid. They are certainly better than fixed weapon turrets.

Related to this non-transformable machine, I also would like to see some non-3-changer mecha in Macross, maybe 2-changer ?

Konig monster is one of the machine that I think would be suited as aircraft-gerwalk only, no purpose for Battroid mode (as far as I can see).

That's pretty much the trajectory of the destroid family's decline.

Initially, they were developed for surface-based planetary defense on the assumption that the enemy would want to land troops and hold terrain. When the final battle of the First Space War rather explosively put that notion to rest, the destroid's operational role was reduced to shipboard air defense and policing rogue Zentradi on Earth's surface. From there, the destroids basically lost that last niche when the UN Spacy's stealth warship designs went into service and they got replaced by more cost-effective and stealthy integrated point-defense guns and missile launchers. The ships just aren't big enough for destroids to have any practical advantage over the less expensive fixed emplacements. From then on, the remaining destroids were quietly surplussed out of service and became construction equipment, or fell into the hands of anti-government forces.

As far as 2-mode variable craft, there are a few of those. The Feios Valkyrie from Macross VF-X and Macross VF-X2 is one. There's also the VF-X-3 Medusa from Macross: Remember Me, and the Macross II OVA's VC-079 Civilian Valkyrie and VF-XX Zentradi Valkyrie. Usually it's GERWALK mode that gets jettisoned, with the VC-079 being the sole exception I know of. It has no Battroid mode instead.

[RedWolf]

As far as 2-mode variable craft, there are a few of those. The Feios Valkyrie from Macross VF-X and Macross VF-X2 is one. There's also the VF-X-3 Medusa from Macross: Remember Me, and the Macross II OVA's VC-079 Civilian Valkyrie and VF-XX Zentradi Valkyrie. Usually it's GERWALK mode that gets jettisoned, with the VC-079 being the sole exception I know of. It has no Battroid mode instead.

The VF-4SL from Macross the Ride got rid of its arms so its gerwalk-fighter mode only. It's popular with Racers. The prototype drone and piloted versions of the Neo Glaug got rid of the Battroid mode.

I figure that there is a brain drain for Destroid pilots as talented ones are getting scouted for VFs. Take Hayate, given his talent with Workroids he'll probably make a Cheyenne quite nimble but Arad got to him first.

[trojan_gambit]

Seto Kaiba, Sir, you just like the personification of Macross library.

Are you secretly Kawamori-san in disguise ?

Or are you hive-minded along with Grace O'Connor ?

[Seto Kaiba]

The VF-4SL from Macross the Ride got rid of its arms so its gerwalk-fighter mode only. It's popular with Racers.

Strictly speaking, that's a 3-mode variable fighter that's been stripped down and disarmed in a more literal sense than usual for air racing... it's not 2-mode by design.

It's debatable whether the Neo Glaug counts, since that's an unmanned VA-110 Variable Glaug, which was a three-mode VF. (It's also a case of the design history being backward, since the Neo Glaug appeared first, production-wise, IIRC.)

Seto Kaiba, Sir, you just like the personification of Macross library.

Are you secretly Kawamori-san in disguise ?

Or are you hive-minded along with Grace O'Connor ?

Nah, nothing so fancy... just a crazy R&D engineer whose love of giant robots led him to start hunting down, importing, and translating Macross books and other stuff back in '01. I do the backend web hosting stuff and some book-hunting, translation, and technical consultation for Mr March's Macross Mecha Manual when I'm not playing mad scientist at my day job. Edited August 16, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Saruta]

The "Philosopher's Stone" refers to super-high purity, extremely large (~1000ct) cuts of fold quartz that can only be obtained from the bodies of certain types of Vajra. Later productions added the caveat that suitably large and pure pieces of fold quartz can sometimes be found in Protoculture ruins. Apparently building a fold wave system requires multiple fold quartz gems at Philosopher's Stone levels of size and purity to work, seemingly one for crystal for each engine. (The YF-29 has four.)

But the Vajra have folded out to another dimension. Dos this mean the amount of high quality fold quartz available to humans is now limited to what they already have, and any new VFs with fold boosters can only be built from recycled olf VFs with fold boosters?

[Seto Kaiba]

But the Vajra have folded out to another dimension. Dos this mean the amount of high quality fold quartz available to humans is now limited to what they already have, and any new VFs with fold boosters can only be built from recycled olf VFs with fold boosters?

The Vajra hive encountered by the Macross Frontier fleet has folded off to parts unknown, but they may not be the only Vajra hive in the Milky Way galaxy. Vajra were encountered by SMS in 2060 on Uroboros, and the Frontier series notes that there are Vajra hives located out in other galaxies as well (and they do migrate for mating).

Such as it is, if you cross the incredibly suicidal approach of "let's hunt Vajra" off a fold quartz shopping list, the two remaining options to humanity are to pillage worlds where there are large amounts of fold quartz left behind by Vajra hives (as on the former Vajra world the Frontier fleet settled) or by the Protoculture in ruins, or finding a way to synthesize it as the ancient Protoculture did. Synthesizing fold quartz may be a ways off, but it seems that a lot of planets with ruins do indulge in pillaging those ruins for fold quartz.

As far as fold boosters go, it's only the "super" fold booster that uses fold quartz. In the overwhelming majority of applications, the material of choice is fold carbon: the low purity synthetic equivalent used in practically every piece of Human and Zentradi overtechnology to implement super dimension physics. Humanity can synthesize fold carbon in industrial quantities, so there's no obstacle to building as many fighters and fold boosters as the budget will permit. Fold Quartz, however, is both a scarce and restricted material, so the construction of fighters and systems that depend on fold quartz is not as sustainable in large numbers for reasons of cost, material scarcity, and legal restrictions.

[eko.prasetiyo]

where does protoculture get those fold quartz to build the ruins? do they have mature tech to create fold quartz or they do the vajra hunt to get it?

[Seto Kaiba]

where does protoculture get those fold quartz to build the ruins? do they have mature tech to create fold quartz or they do the vajra hunt to get it?

I'm having trouble remembering exactly which sheet, but IIRC in Chronicle the Birdman the Protoculture left behind on Earth had a synthetic fold quartz-based power system (probably a dimensional energy conversion system)...

It's highly probable that most of the fold quartz in the Protoculture ruins is fold quartz the Protoculture produced themselves rather than hunting the Vajra, whom they allegedly revered.

[eko.prasetiyo]

well are winderemere planet crust consist of high quality fold quartz?

cause the scarfell crater seems different from galia 4 where it too had DE/MDE detonated

scarfell seems still "active"

while galia 4 had quarter of its mass gone

[grigolosi]

Judging from the color and appearance of the Birdmans central spiral structure, I definitely agree with you Seto. The scientist studying the Birdman in episode 2 noticed it had the same system characteristics as the ASS-1 remains but on a more sophisticated and compact level. They theorized or stated it not only had gravity control but could possibly teleport and travel through time ( I am not sure about the "time" portion but definitely it definitely teleported/folded at the end). The whole spiral assembly probably also acted as a large fold quartz sensor dish picking up fold waves generated by the wind maidens as they sang.

Edited August 18, 2016 by grigolosi

[Aries Turner]

Variable Fighter Master File and Variable Fighter Episode Archive both suggested that it [VF-25] would/should be by now... though their "not official setting" status means that has to be taken with a grain of salt until confirmed elsewhere, though it is practically a given (IMO) that the Macross Frontier NUNS forces have started to adopt the VF-25 by now.

Maybe not. Kawamori choice of VF-171 as grunts because VF-19s were too much hero unit offers a (non-canon) alternative. VF-11 were really intended to be replaced with unmanned fighters. When that proved badly premature, UNS choose the simpler of the two alternatives. When fielded, it proved so costly (weapon systems redundancy, engines able to achieve orbit,...) it replaced VF-17s, not VF-11s. VF-22 would be even more expensive. General Galaxy came with the VF-171, sturdy and simple.

Enter the YF-24, YF-25, VF-25, YF-27, VF-27, YF-29 and YF-30. Basically the same platform with different applications, an industry of prototypes. Although the VF-25 was the most versatile, magnetic actuators, weapon redundancy (more on this later), ISC, EXGear and advanced armor allowed for a short production run, mostly a temperamental plane used by ace private pilots to try even more exotic packs like the Tornado. NUNS opted instead for the VF-171EX, without matching VF-25 capabilities but not falling so far behind.

As for weapon redundancy, VF-1 head lasers doubled as fallback fighter cannon. VF-11 could only use the gunpod. To address the issue VF-14s included shoulder guns, VF-17 and VF-171 used torso guns, VF-19 and VF-25 used awkward to aim when in battroid mode hip mounted guns. VF-27 used guns that were mostly dead weight when in battroid mode, fixed and pointing straight up. Enter the Kairos: shields and gunpods you don´t need to actively equip that double as fighter guns and may make a meltran feel at home in a VF for the first time ever. An optional gunpod that doubles as Tornado/YF-29 turret if the need arise. The Kairos is the first design since the VF-11 where nothing more could be removed without degrading the design, most technologies proven and tested in previous prototypes. Even dispenses with the need of a specialized RVF variant. Kairos may be the first VF in ages that seems simple enough to be mass manufactured in long runs.

Lack of hardpoints is somewhat puzzling, but not when considering the large hangar bay (pod), the beam weaponry taking over the kinetic weapons role and the packs ability to include more hardpoints. Chaos wasn´t so invested into beam weaponry and added two hardpoints just to be in the safe side. It turned out those are really mostly superfluous.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Aries Turner

[RedWolf]

well are winderemere planet crust consist of high quality fold quartz?

cause the scarfell crater seems different from galia 4 where it too had DE/MDE detonated

Ruins have them. Fold Quartz can be extracted near Exdel village. Yes Cassim's village where those Var causing apples come from. Fold Quartz in the soil has affected those particular apples. The twins sold those Fold Quartz pendants as trinkets.

Exdel and Freyja's village is nowhere in Scarfell. The MDE detonated at the NUNS base which then expanded to the nearby city of Carlisle.

However Windermere NUNS were stockpiling on Fold Quartz already before the independence war. So likely they didn't smuggle the MDE but it was built there.

[Seto Kaiba]

well are winderemere planet crust consist of high quality fold quartz?

cause the scarfell crater seems different from galia 4 where it too had DE/MDE detonated

scarfell seems still "active"

while galia 4 had quarter of its mass gone

Exactly what's going on with the crater at Scarfell isn't clear (yet), since normally dimension eater warheads don't leave behind a space-time disruption like that.

I would guess that there may have been more ruins at Carlyle, and what we're seeing in the crater is the severed energy conduits that connect ruins to the planet's core.

Maybe not. Kawamori choice of VF-171 as grunts because VF-19s were too much hero unit offers a (non-canon) alternative.

Going over your post here in detail... I won't say you're completely wrong, but you're darn close to it. Almost every factoid you cited is incorrect.

VF-11 were really intended to be replaced with unmanned fighters. When that proved badly premature, UNS choose the simpler of the two alternatives. When fielded, it proved so costly (weapon systems redundancy, engines able to achieve orbit,...) it replaced VF-17s, not VF-11s. VF-22 would be even more expensive.

This is mostly incorrect.

The UN Forces originally planned to adopt the winning design from the Project Super Nova competition as their next main variable fighter. The decision that the UN Forces brass made to go with an unmanned fighter instead came along at the last minute, a decision that was rescinded almost as quickly thanks to an unpleasant PR fiasco caused by some monstrously irresponsible (illegal) stuff the Venus Sound Factory did that led to Sharon Apple going berserk and taking control of the AIF-X-9 Ghost prototype in 2040.

The YF-19 was declared the winner of Project Super Nova and slated to become the next main fighter of the UN Forces... but its adoption, and that of the special forces VF-22, was pulled due to several factors:

• The YF-19 and YF-21 independently penetrating Earth's defenses made the UN Government uneasy about the idea of such powerful aircraft being in widespread use. Arms export restrictions were tightened as a result, limiting the ability of emigrant fleets and private military contractors to purchase and employ the VF-19 and VF-22 in their forces. Emigrant fleets and PMCs could only employ an assortment of reduced-capability variants ("Monkey Models") in relatively tiny numbers, effectively demoting the VF-19 to a second Special Forces VF model alongside the VF-22.
• The high maneuverability of the VF-19 and VF-22 exceeded the endurance of average pilots, which caused numerous accidents and crashes during simulated air combat maneuver training with the new fighters early in their adoption by the UN Forces. Consequentially, plans to use the fighters for their rank-and-file pilots were scrubbed because of the loss of control problem. Shinsei put out several refinements to the VF-19 in an attempt to address this problem in the 2nd Mass Production type (VF-19F/S), but ultimately never succeeded in its goal of making the VF-19 an aircraft average pilots could handle easily. That led to the UN Government soliciting bids for a replacement... a contract that ended up awarded to General Galaxy for the VF-171.
• The VF-19 and VF-22 had a high purchase cost and relatively high cost of maintenance, making them unattractive for operation in large numbers.

At no point have the engines, weapons, etc. been identified as factors in its being passed over for adoption by the (New) UN Forces. Indeed, the same style of engines and weapons were used in the VF-17 and VF-171.

Enter the YF-24, YF-25, VF-25, YF-27, VF-27, YF-29 and YF-30. Basically the same platform with different applications, an industry of prototypes.

Whooboy, WRONG.

The YF-24 Evolution was the Earth/Federal New UN Forces' planned 5th Generation Main Variable Fighter, the replacement for the 4th Gen VF-171. Under galaxy law its specs were shared (after some censorship) with the emigrant fleets and the colonized planets of the reorganized New UN Government could develop their own 5th Generation VFs independently.

The YF-25, YF-26, YF-27, YF-29, and YF-30 were all developed from the YF-24 by individual emigrant fleets or planets. Some, like the 25, 26, and 27, were the intended replacements for the VF-171 for their respective fleets (the Frontier, Olympia, and Galaxy fleets respectively), while others (YF-29 and YF-30) were technology demonstrators and proof-of-concept aircraft. On paper, all but the YF-30 were developed with the goal of being able to successfully oppose Vajra in an armed conflict... and all but the YF-29 and YF-30 were intended to be a mass-production main variable fighter to replace the VF-171.

From Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25, the YF-25, YF-26, and YF-27 were all developed for the same inter-fleet joint development program known as Project Triangler. The winning design was to become the main fighter of all 3 fleets, but Macross Galaxy backed out of it in favor of the VF-27 they'd made illicit improvements to using stolen data and illegally pushed into production and Macross Olypmia and Frontier declared the YF-25 the winner. As Macross Frontier indicated, the VF-25 was in operational evaluation prior to its adoption as the new main fighter of the Macross Frontier fleet in 2059. The Master File writeup indicates that the VF-25 was in service in large numbers by 2065.

Although the VF-25 was the most versatile, magnetic actuators, weapon redundancy (more on this later), ISC, EXGear and advanced armor allowed for a short production run, mostly a temperamental plane used by ace private pilots to try even more exotic packs like the Tornado.

The VF-25 was arguably the most versatile, but it was also the lowest overall performer of the completed 5th Generation designs to date. The advances you're crediting solely to the VF-25 are present on ALL 5th Generation VFs. Nothing in any official source credits the VF-25 itself with being tempermental, only the Tornado Pack itself.

NUNS opted instead for the VF-171EX, without matching VF-25 capabilities but not falling so far behind.

*sigh* Wrong again.

The Frontier fleet New UN Spacy built a limited number of VF-171EX Nightmare Plus EX units as a stopgap measure to improve their fleet of VF-171's, since SMS had run off with most of the low rate initial production block VF-25s... the Nightmare Plus EX was only deployed to elite pilots.

The VF-25 was still planned to be the fleet's official next main fighter once it entered mass production... and, as Master File has it, did so after the war ended, becoming the main fighter of several emigrant fleets including Frontier and Olympia, and also used by planetary defense forces on Sewell and other worlds.

As for weapon redundancy, [...]

This particular point exists pretty much entirely in your head, I'm afraid.

VF-11 could only use the gunpod. To address the issue VF-14s included shoulder guns, [...]

Um... so, I'm assuming you weren't aware that the Shinsei VF-11 Thunderbolt III and General Galaxy VF-14 Vampire were rival designs developed at the same time? The connection you're inferring doesn't exist.

Much like the VF-19 and VF-22, the VF-11 and VF-14 were developed at the same time as candidates for the next main fighter to replace the VF-4. The Project Nova competition ended in a victory for the VF-11, which became the next main VF of the UN Forces. The VF-14 still found a market for itself with emigrant planets out on the galactic frontier thanks to its space cruising performance.

Enter the Kairos: shields and gunpods you don´t need to actively equip that double as fighter guns and may make a meltran feel at home in a VF for the first time ever.

... lolwut?

You HAVE seen the VF-22, right? That also has forearm-mounted guns and shields, and it's literally modeled on the Queadluun-Rau in both stylistic and technological terms. The VF-22 has the Q-Rau's inertia vector control system protecting the pilot from g-forces, and its battroid mode is a dead ringer for the Queadluun-Rau it was modeled on.

The Kairos is the first design since the VF-11 where nothing more could be removed without degrading the design, most technologies proven and tested in previous prototypes.

... you do know that all of the 5th Generation VFs are using technologies that were previously tested in other prototypes, right? The YF-24 validated the ISC and EX-Gear and a bunch of other stuff. The VF-27's BDI was validated on both the YF-21 and VF-22HG, etc. etc.

You're making a grand declaration that has no actual basis in fact.

Even dispenses with the need of a specialized RVF variant.

... you missed the memo that modular radomes have been a thing for two full fighter generations by this point? Even the RVF-171 is literally just a VF-171 with an Aegis Pack mounted.

Kairos may be the first VF in ages that seems simple enough to be mass manufactured in long runs. Lack of hardpoints is somewhat puzzling, but not when considering the large hangar bay (pod), the beam weaponry taking over the kinetic weapons role and the packs ability to include more hardpoints. Chaos wasn´t so invested into beam weaponry and added two hardpoints just to be in the safe side. It turned out those are really mostly superfluous.

The Kairos is late to the party, being at best the fourth 5th Generation VF to be in mass production. Depending on when the VF-24 went into production, that would make the VF-27 the first or second, the VF-25 the third, and the VF-31 the fourth.

To date, the only 5th Generation VF identified as unsuitable for mass production is the YF-29... due to the monstrous costs involved in securing sufficient fold quartz to build the fold wave system and other related technologies.

I'm also unsure why you're praising the Kairos for abandoning kinetic weapons when it still maintains two solid ammo cannons on the forearms.

We're certainly not seeing the Kairos being used to its best advantage either, given that Xaos is less a real PMC and more a glorified bodyguard detail for the members of Walkure. They're distinctly under-armed compared to a military unit.

[aurance]

How much better is the Fold Dimensional Resonance System (-30) than the Fold Wave System (-29)?

[Aries Turner]

The Master File writeup indicates that the VF-25 was in service in large numbers by 2065.

I stand corrected. Certainly mostly was in my head, as expected if the warning 'non-canon' is issued. I could also point I was making no connection between the VF-11 and the VF-14, but pointing the differences in weaponry. And cost. But that is unimportant.

However:

You HAVE seen the VF-22, right? That also has forearm-mounted guns and shields, and it's literally modeled on the Queadluun-Rau in both stylistic and technological terms.

Yeah. Double ended cannons, however you magically engineer those (also in VF-17 forearms). But unimportant again, as it is stated that even the VF-22 was no match for the Queadluun, the VF-25 stated as being the first almost on par with the Rau or the Rhea. ALMOST. [Edit]: Actually, the opposite is true. The VF-25 is stated as superior to the Rhea in maneuverability. It may be implied it is the first one to do so, as the difference in power output with the VF-22 is so great. It may well not be. True, the VF-22 was all about taking as much of the Rau as possible, but that doesn't mean it achieved parity either, but rather a first implementation. It could be said that the Rhea is the result.

Depending on when the VF-24 went into production, that would make the VF-27 the first or second, the VF-25 the third, and the VF-31 the fourth.

If you are stating this, you are possibly right. I find it unbelievable that the monstrosity of engineering that is the VF-27, however beautiful, made into long run production. Unless you are talking about Macross Galaxy short run (and demise of the project).

I'm also unsure why you're praising the Kairos for abandoning kinetic weapons when it still maintains two solid ammo cannons on the forearms.

Surely I have not explained myself. In this thread it is stated that VF-31 forearm cannons are most probably coilguns. What I am stating here is that those seem to be suitable enough to abandon kinetic gunpods, adopting instead a beam pod that feed on the power surplus of the engines, and *that* beam pod making obsolete most medium range kinetic missiles (but not MDE or reaction long range ones). All that to retcon why *may* the Kairos have only two hardpoints, having an internal bomb bay (in the form of a pod, when not using it as a beam turret). I could as well point that multi-ordinance hard point are not unheard off, if you remember the F-14 and F-15 lonely two wing pylons. It is also an engineering saying that perfection is not attained when nothing more could be added to the design (as in YF-29), but when nothing more could be subtracted of it. With wing portions used as integral shields, some of the wing is more than dead weight backpack. Making the fighter mode cannons double as lightweight gunpods, no rookie pilot could miss grabbing a gunpod midflight. It seems easier to pilot to me. BUT if the VF-25 was deployed in numbers by 2065, that is a fact. And mine was wishful speculation and I was wrong. OK, I have no problem with that.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Seto Kaiba]

How much better is the Fold Dimensional Resonance System (-30) than the Fold Wave System (-29)?

That's hard (impossible) to say... given that we don't know how much energy a fold wave or fold dimensional resonance system produces in dimensional energy conversion. Several gigawatts, at least, but we have no frame of reference to compare the two.

The only acknowledged area of difference between a fold wave system and a fold dimensional resonance system is that the latter, when activated, lets the VF it was mounted in fly straight through fold fault barriers. (Which, when you think about it, would be a huge asset in Macross Delta.)

I could also point I was making no connection between the VF-11 and the VF-14, but pointing the differences in weaponry. And cost.

You implied a casual relationship between the VF-11 having no built-in forward gun and the VF-14's VF-4-style beam cannons.

However:Yeah. Double ended cannons, however you magically engineer those (also in VF-17 forearms). But unimportant again, [...]

Considering the ones in the VF-22 are converging energy cannons, and therefore are using basically the same technology as the VF-31's gunpod, I'd say calling it "unimportant" is a grave misjudgment.

(As to how they engineer those, given that they're converging energy cannons, a few different possibilities present themselves... possibly as simple as setting the directionality of the resonance fold effect exciting the heavy quanta, or a deflection field may be put at one end of the barrel to contain the reaction. A more complex answer might be one power supply which feeds two barrels installed back to back.)

[Edit]: Actually, the opposite is true. The VF-25 is stated as superior to the Rhea in maneuverability. It may be implied it is the first one to do so, as the difference in power output with the VF-22 is so great.

Half-correct.

The latest-model Queadluun-Rhea (Rhea/56) has maneuverability performance that is only moderately overshadowed by the low end of what 5th Generation Variable Fighters can do... but it's worth remembering that's the very latest model the Rhea has, and that the Rhea itself is a significant improvement over the Q-Rau model it replaced in terms of engine power, maneuverability, armament, etc.

Your comparison's a based on a bit of a faulty assumption, I'm afraid.

It may well not be. True, the VF-22 was all about taking as much of the Rau as possible, but that doesn't mean it achieved parity either, but rather a first implementation. It could be said that the Rhea is the result.

The VF-19 and VF-22 certainly seemed to be at least on par with Queadluun-Rau units in Macross 7, and they're certainly a hell of a lot more defensible. (The Q-Rau's what you'd call a glass cannon, which is one reason the New UN Forces insisted the reproduction plan General Galaxy led include improved defensive capability and survivability for the operator.)

If you are stating this, you are possibly right. I find it unbelievable that the monstrosity of engineering that is the VF-27, however beautiful, made into long run production. Unless you are talking about Macross Galaxy short run (and demise of the project).

At this juncture, it may be wise to briefly digress to talk about the actual defense procurement situation in the New UN Government in the late 2050's and 2060's.

After being reorganized into the New UN Government and New UN Forces, a lot of the government and military's power were devolved to the individual fleets and planets that were member states of that government. Kawamori has, in the past, compared the New UN Government to something more along the lines of the EU... the individual member nations have a good deal more autonomy in governing and maintaining their own militaires than they did before. Those local militaries maintained by the individual fleets and planets are still called the "New UN Forces", but they're kind of like a militia or national guard reserve, while the "real" New UN Forces are the federal forces maintained by the central New UN Government to keep the peace.

The individual local governments more or less have a free hand to decide how they're going to arm their forces. Some go with monkey model versions of the federal forces main VF that they buy (or buy rights to produce) from Earth's government. Some went in for an all-Ghost air force in an effort to take the risk to human(oid) life and limb out of the picture. Some (very foolish) had gone full pacifist. Several governments have gone in for developing some new VFs of their own based on the specs shared by the New UN Government, and the fleets and worlds that do that usually seem to have a plan to sell their new toy to their allies.

These fleets and local government forces aren't small by any means, and since VFs are the default currency of defense even the smaller production runs done for main fighters would be massive by today's standards. They made over 5,400 VF-1 Valkyries in seven years... that's more VF-1 Valkyries than the USAF has planes of all stripes, and that was one of the smallest production runs. Your typical medium-sized emigrant fleet fields over 2,400 variable aircraft... no small feat in itself, but a large fleet like Macross Frontier or Galaxy could have a military escort fleet five times the size. A "small" production run to supply a single large-scale emigrant fleet's forces could still number a good ten thousand fighters.

We do know, however, that the VF-27 was far from the only fighter flown by the Macross Galaxy corporate army... but we also know Macross Galaxy weren't the only ones building them. Uroboros Hunter's Guild chairwoman Mei Ririon had a VF-27 for her personal use in 2060.

Surely I have not explained myself. In this thread it is stated that VF-31 forearm cannons are most probably coilguns. What I am stating here is that those seem to be suitable enough to abandon kinetic gunpods, [...]

Officially, they're railguns... but that makes them kinetic energy weapons. Technically the beam gun is too, since it's firing a beam of heavy quantum, which relies on kinetic energy to deal damage.

[...] and *that* beam pod making obsolete most medium range kinetic missiles (but not MDE or reaction long range ones). All that to retcon why *may* the Kairos have only two hardpoints, having an internal bomb bay (in the form of a pod, when not using it as a beam turret).

You're drawing a conclusion based on an assumption.

Per Kawamori in the 2016 Spring issue of Great Mechanics G, the reason the Xaos forces are armed pretty much exclusively with short-range weaponry is because their tactics focus on recovering pilots sticken with Var syndrome instead of killing them from afar. That's all that is. (Though Messer apparently did not get the memo about not killing.)

As far as the number of hardpoints, it's a safe bet it's meant to have four... and the art department just screwed up. The Siegfried custom version and the YF-30 both have four. (Mind you, the VF-31A/B type also has missile bays in the legs instead of multidrones, so there's that too.)

With wing portions used as integral shields, some of the wing is more than dead weight backpack.

The wings have never been dead weight... they contain fuel tanks, cooling systems, verniers, and other important things.

Making the fighter mode cannons double as lightweight gunpods, no rookie pilot could miss grabbing a gunpod midflight.

That's handled by the super-AI avionics, not the pilot... so probably not an issue.

BUT if the VF-25 was deployed in numbers by 2065, that is a fact. And mine was wishful speculation and I was wrong. OK, I have no problem with that.

The VF-25 was deployed on multiple worlds by 2060 as well... SMS Sephira had VF-25s in Macross 30.

[Aries Turner]

You implied a casual relationship between the VF-11 having no built-in forward gun and the VF-14's VF-4-style beam cannons.

Your point, not mine. Mine is that from VF-14 onward some kind of additional cannons are mounted to supplement a head turret now pointing backwards. VF-31A is the first one that don't involve lots of cannons in awkward turrets or impractical fixed positions when in battroid mode.

Considering the ones in the VF-22 are converging energy cannons

Ah, OK, I thought those to be kinetic. So just coilguns again to accelerate charged particles.

the Rhea itself is a significant improvement over the Q-Rau model it replaced in terms of engine power, maneuverability, armament, etc.

I was under the impression it was a successful replication with slight improvements. Possibly you are correct on this one. Or not.

The VF-19 and VF-22 certainly seemed to be at least on par with Queadluun-Rau units in Macross 7

No, those weren't. AFAIK only Max Jenius or Basara (or Aegis Focker if counting games) have defeated Queadluuns, and that victories are more a testament of superb piloting than comparable machines.

Officially, they're railguns... but that makes them kinetic energy weapons. Technically the beam gun is too, since it's firing a beam of heavy quantum, which relies on kinetic energy to deal damage.

Technically, you are correct, since charged particle beams are... well... accelerated particles. Coilguns are less prone to friction problems than railguns (and somewhat wider), but if it is stated those are railguns and somehow have solved the issue, railguns those are. I was making the distinction between laser weaponry and chemical impact weapons, being those slugs or missiles. Failed to acknowledge the fact that particle beams are not lasers (the same reason Star Wars 'lasers' are not lasers, but corellian folks also fail to make the distinction). And including coilguns and railguns as obviously kinetic slug-throwers: I've never said the weaponry was changed outright to all beams. I only pointed the Kairos had a slug-thrower fallback if beams proved ineffectual for whatever the circumstance, so Kairos are not forced to always be issued a gunpod as all the VFs before it (except the VF-27 and its beampod. The YF-30 also was not issued a gunpod but a beampod, but had no slug-thrower fallback either: beams or bust).

You're drawing a conclusion based on an assumption.

So do you. I am not pointing the obvious thing that Chaos Squadrons are not being issuing missiles other than mini. I am pointing out that two hardpoints are not necessarily too few. The F-15E Strike Eagle mount six bombs, an AMRAAM and a Sidewinder in each of its two wing pylons.

As far as the number of hardpoints, it's a safe bet it's meant to have four... and the art department just screwed up.

I saw the very same assumption in this forum regarding the failure to draw VF-31 landing gear doors. It turned out it was a false assumption, as the landing gear was relocated to what used to be ramjet intakes (in the VF-1). Edited August 19, 2016 by Aries Turner

[Sildani]

It was a reasonable assumption, since Kawamori had never stashed landing gear inside the kneecaps before.

[David Hingtgen]

And it's a terrible idea, both aerodynamically and toy/model-wise.

[kalvasflam]

Wow, after browsing through this, all I can say is I wish I understood Japanese so I could read the master files instead of looking at the pretty pictures.

Wonder how much a VF-27 (a real one) would cost in dollars today, double of the F-22?

Edited August 19, 2016 by kalvasflam

[NightmarePlus]

Wow, after browsing through this, all I can say is I wish I understood Japanese so I could read the master files instead of looking at the pretty pictures.

Wonder how much a VF-27 (a real one) would cost in dollars today, double of the F-22?

If we had the tech to build a 27?

[Seto Kaiba]

Your point, not mine. Mine is that from VF-14 onward some kind of additional cannons are mounted to supplement a head turret now pointing backwards.

The VF-11 has a gun pointing forward in fighter mode... it's a high-powered 30mm rotary cannon firing Anti-ECA shells. It's an extraordinarily effective weapon.

VF-31A is the first one that don't involve lots of cannons in awkward turrets or impractical fixed positions when in battroid mode.

The VF-31's forearm guns are impractical for their own reasons, being that the gun has to rotate 180 degrees to remain usable and being a railgun firing high velocity hard rounds means the weapon's ammunition is aggressively limited by its mounting out on the forearm. Energy weapons would've been more practical, given that they won't run out of ammo. (Xaos is sort of saved in this respect because their engagements are necessarily short.)

Ah, OK, I thought those to be kinetic. So just coilguns again to accelerate charged particles.

Um, no.

I'm gonna go ahead and operate on the assumption you're not super familiar with the in-depth details of Macross's tech setting. No problem with that, as there's that language barrier. We're here and happy to help lend clarity.

There are four types of energy weaponry in the Macross setting. You're familiar with lasers, and particle beams, and plasma weapons. The forearm gun mounts on the VF-22 belong to the fourth family... dimensional weapons, which are also known as super dimension energy weapons or heavy quantum weapons. To produce their destructive effects, these weapons use an exotic form of matter called heavy quantum which exists simultaneously in fold space and our three-dimensional universe. When heavy quantum is excited with a resonance fold, it can drop completely into three-dimensional space... where its mass is so huge that its own gravity will crush it until it fuses. This principle is employed in beam weapons in one of three ways:

• Heavy quantum reaction cannons excite masses of heavy quantum until the gravity compresses it past the fusion threshold, and focuses the resulting fusion explosion into a hypervelocity beam of fusion plasma made of impossible extradimensional matter. The shot carries incredible kinetic force and heat, a one-two punch so nasty that in many cases a near miss is sufficient to inflict significant damage. This type of weapon goes by a bunch of different names, to reflect the different ways the heavy quantum is focused. This form is the most common type, ubiquitous in starship beam turrets, the colossal "main gun" type applications (e.g. the Macross Cannons of the Battle-class), and in the 4th Generation and later VFs for built-in guns and coaxial guns.
• Heavy quantum cannons stop short of exciting the heavy quantum into fusing with itself and instead use the fold effect of lob a bolt of super-high mass heavy quantum downrange where the impossible mass moving at speed conveys a kinetic punch that makes the heaviest depleted uranium shell feel distinctly inadequate. This type of weapon is a newer development, used on the gunpods of the VF-27, YF-29, YF-30, and VF-31, the VF-25's Tornado Pack, and also on the SMS Macross Quarter's main gun.
• Micro-Dimension Eater beam weaponry utilizes a unique form of heavy quantum that can only be produced using fold quartz. The mass is so impossibly huge that it produces a fold effect around itself and collapses back into fold space. It's essentially firing a beam made up of micro black holes which crush the matter they encounter and draw it into fold space. This weapon is one that was developed during the Vajra war, and was employed in the YF-29's turret, in the VF-27's gunpod, and the VF-171EX's beam cannon.

The VF-22's forearm guns are in the "Heavy Quantum reaction cannon" type, and use fold effects to fire beams of extradimensional fusion plasma.

I was under the impression it was a successful replication with slight improvements. Possibly you are correct on this one. Or not.

The official material supports my point, and mentions the Rhea/56 model has basically pushed the enhanced design to its limits... to the point where it needed extra bolt-on propellant tanks, a more potent reactor, and a control system redesign.

No, those weren't. AFAIK only Max Jenius or Basara (or Aegis Focker if counting games) have defeated Queadluuns, and that victories are more a testament of superb piloting than comparable machines.

There's nothing to indicate the Q-Rau is anything like as uber as you contend that it is. We've seen that Q-Raus piloted by elite top aces are equal to the capabilities of VFs piloted by elite top aces, but there's no indication that fodder-piloted units exhibit "game-breaking" performance.

Coilguns are less prone to friction problems than railguns (and somewhat wider), but if it is stated those are railguns and somehow have solved the issue, railguns those are.

"Railguns" is what the official material calls them, so that's what they are. I'd expect overtechnology materials have solved the barrel wear problem that plagues modern railguns decades before Macross Delta, given that some overtechnology materials have been described as being 100 times as resilient as steel at any given thickness (or better).

Edit: The third section sounded a bit snarky on review, so I've revised it to the helpful tone I intended. Sorry for that.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Seto Kaiba]

Wow, after browsing through this, all I can say is I wish I understood Japanese so I could read the master files instead of looking at the pretty pictures.

Wonder how much a VF-27 (a real one) would cost in dollars today, double of the F-22?

The flyaway cost for a VF-1 was originally given as $126 million (2008) in the Sky Angels VF tech manual, from a $50 billion development project.

I would assume the VF-27 is probably several times that expensive.

[kalvasflam]

Ha, it feels like someone looked at the development and unit cost of the F-22 and F-35 and extrapolated. Wonder when that manual came out