Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[UN Spacy]

One thing I'm seeing animation inconsistencies with are the sensors in front of the cockpit.

In photos 1 thru 3 the sensor is below a groove...but in the photos 4 and 5 it's just a flat sensor.

Anyone else notice this?

[Master Dex]

Actually, that's a really good question... I had to do a fair bit of digging to find an answer.

Most of the diagrams I'm familiar with for thermonuclear reaction engine technology outright ignore the subject of bypass ratios... but after some research, I found two that do not. The diagram of the FF-2001 which appears in the Sky Angels tech manual on page 40 and the diagram of the FF-3001A Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engine used on the VF-25 Messiah on pages 58 and 59 of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 Messiah show thermonuclear reaction engines as a low-bypass turbofan-style jet engine (with the obvious substitution of a compact thermonuclear reactor for a burner stage).

In both cases, the body of the engine shows a few sets of sub-intakes where air from the low-pressure bypass air can be drawn into the high pressure areas of the turbine and further heated by exposure to the hot exhaust stream. The FF-3001A diagram shows two sets... one in burner stage ahead of the turbine and one in the afterburner stage. It looks like, instead of injecting more "fuel" into the exhaust stream, a reaction engine's afterburner works by injecting more air into the exhaust stream to mix with the already-hot mixture of hot exhaust and plasma. On the VF-25 engine diagram, it does look like the bypass air is picking up a good amount of heat as it passes over the engine, regardless of whether or not it's then introduced into the high-pressure stream... so it does appear to be cooling the engine somewhat.

Glad I gave you a challenge, lol. Sounds like instead of a traditional afterburner it works more like a LANTR (LOX-Augmented Nuclear Thermal Rocket) but with a fusion engine instead of fission of course. That makes sense really though, more thrust at higher propellant cost, but propellant is intake air so win/win. The cooling aspect makes perfect sense too because that is one of the uses of conventional bypass systems. I find the idea that it has bypass ducts that reinsert it into the engine at the reaction stage odd. I am not sure what the benefit of that would be, especially if that air is less compressed than the air already brought in. In the augmentor/afterburner stage it makes perfect sense though.

Any chance you could post those pictures? I couldn't find any by searching.. well none that were any decent for the VF-1 (and none at all for the 25).

Yeah, normally the main body of the engine is in the "shin" of the VF's leg... while the hip area contains a precompressor driven by a superconducting motor which is connected to the rest of the engine via a flexible duct that runs inside the VF's knee. The bypass doesn't seem to come into play until you're past the precompressor and into the fan at the leading edge of the turbine engine itself in the lower leg. I would assume that arrangement hasn't changed in later VFs.

The diagram of the FF-2001 engine used by the VF-1 in the Sky Angels book gives the total length of the actual engine (which resides entirely in the lower leg) as just 2.14 meters (just a hair over 7 feet) with a mass of just 1,580kg.

2.14 meters?! That's a small engine for a fighter the size of the VF-1! The F-16's F110 engine (which I work with in my day job) is almost twice that length, though half of it is the augmenter/exhaust nozzle. Granted I suppose if you count that precompressor you get a longer engine, but that just tells me OTECH makes for really powerful compact engines, and that VFs are only so big because they also transform into robots with a ton of extra systems to handle that.

[sketchley]

One thing I'm seeing animation inconsistencies with are the sensors in front of the cockpit.

In photos 1 thru 3 the sensor is below a groove...but in the photos 4 and 5 it's just a flat sensor.

Anyone else notice this?

Aerodynamically, the lack of a groove (picts 4 & 5) makes much more sense (nevermind how it affects stealthiness).

Perhaps they just got too aggressive when detailing the VFs in picts 1 to 3?

[aurance]

Aerodynamically, the lack of a groove (picts 4 & 5) makes much more sense (nevermind how it affects stealthiness).

Perhaps they just got too aggressive when detailing the VFs in picts 1 to 3?

Yeah, that second pic especially looks really exaggerated.

Edited July 3, 2016 by aurance

[kajnrig]

I'm gonna make things easy on my headcanon and say that's a trick of the lighting.

Yep.

[Seto Kaiba]

Glad I gave you a challenge, lol. Sounds like instead of a traditional afterburner it works more like a LANTR (LOX-Augmented Nuclear Thermal Rocket) but with a fusion engine instead of fission of course. That makes sense really though, more thrust at higher propellant cost, but propellant is intake air so win/win. The cooling aspect makes perfect sense too because that is one of the uses of conventional bypass systems. I find the idea that it has bypass ducts that reinsert it into the engine at the reaction stage odd. I am not sure what the benefit of that would be, especially if that air is less compressed than the air already brought in. In the augmentor/afterburner stage it makes perfect sense though.

That's my favorite kind of question. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff I've found entirely by accident while looking for answers to the tough questions. Last time, I went looking for a factoid on the ARMD-class and ended up finding a probable engine output for the QF-3000E and VF-0+.

I'm not sure what the benefit of the first inlet connecting the low pressure and high pressure air streams is, except maybe that it's close enough to the engine's compact thermonuclear reactor and the two stages of the engine's generator system to be more effectively heated than it would if it were simply mixing with the exhaust stream after the turbine stage. From the look of the FF-3001A diagram, even the low pressure air stream from the bypass is heated pretty damn effectively when the engine is running at above about 80% power. (It would've been REALLY interesting if they'd given us a better look at the diverter system for that vernier ring used on the VF-14, VF-17, VF-19 2nd production type, etc., since that pulls from the exhaust stream just ahead of the nozzle to provide a combination of vernier and thrust reverser function.)

On a lark, I went looking in another book and found another, less conventional example of bypass airflow for a VF's engines. I'd forgotten about Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II's diagram of the VF-22's FF-2450B thermonuclear reaction burst turbine engines, where there's a special bypass between the precompressor and the body of the engine that's used to provide downward thrust for hovering while operating in GERWALK mode in atmosphere. (The "nozzle" for that system is the set of horizontal vanes on the underside of the engine compartment in GERWALK mode.)

Any chance you could post those pictures? I couldn't find any by searching.. well none that were any decent for the VF-1 (and none at all for the 25).

I don't currently have a working scanner, so I'll see if I can make Office Lens produce acceptable results on my tablet.

2.14 meters?! That's a small engine for a fighter the size of the VF-1! The F-16's F110 engine (which I work with in my day job) is almost twice that length, though half of it is the augmenter/exhaust nozzle. Granted I suppose if you count that precompressor you get a longer engine, but that just tells me OTECH makes for really powerful compact engines, and that VFs are only so big because they also transform into robots with a ton of extra systems to handle that.

Yep... 2.14 meters. That doesn't count the ducting or the precompressor, but that is one tiny engine... but when you consider the amount of heat energy being released by a hydrogen fusion reaction, it's not hard to see how it can produce such incredible amounts of thrust without being very large. Jet fuel's burn temperature peaks at what, about 2,200 celsius? Hydrogen fusion's around 13 million.

[SebastianP]

Glad you like tough questions, Seto Kaiba!

I have another for you:

In the "Battleships of the Galaxy Vol 2" book, on page 25, there's a picture of what the author calls the "Kaga-class stealth space carrier", which appears to be a larger version of the Guantanamo-class with an Uraga-class control tower on top. I was assuming that this was a fan design, but then someone on /m/ claimed that it's from one of the same set of games as the Daedalus II, which would basically make it a precursor to both the Guantanamo and Uraga-class.

You mentioned earlier that you have the book in question, so I figure you'll know which ship I'm talking about. Is this true though, or wishful thinking? And if it's true, is there any actual art of the thing that doesn't come from this book?

[Seto Kaiba]

Glad you like tough questions, Seto Kaiba!

They're my favorite kind.

I have another for you:

In the "Battleships of the Galaxy Vol 2" book, on page 25, there's a picture of what the author calls the "Kaga-class stealth space carrier", which appears to be a larger version of the Guantanamo-class with an Uraga-class control tower on top. I was assuming that this was a fan design, but then someone on /m/ claimed that it's from one of the same set of games as the Daedalus II, which would basically make it a precursor to both the Guantanamo and Uraga-class.

You mentioned earlier that you have the book in question, so I figure you'll know which ship I'm talking about. Is this true though, or wishful thinking? And if it's true, is there any actual art of the thing that doesn't come from this book?

Your initial assumption was correct... that dojinshi's "Kaga-class stealth space carrier" is indeed a fan-made design.

A wicked cool fan-made design that would be a legit monster as carriers go in the main Macross universe, but a fan-made design nonetheless.

Whoever told you that on /m/ was way out in left field... dunno what they were thinking. They've actually posited a doubly-impossible premise there. You see, the Daedalus II-class space assault carrier is the only new UN Spacy warship design to appear in Masaya's Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song. If the Kaga-class HAD appeared in those games, then it wouldn't be able to have any relation whatsoever to the Guantanamo-class or Uraga-class... because those two games belong to a different Macross universe altogether. Specifically, both Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song belong to the same parallel world continuity as the Macross II: Lovers Again OVA. They were made as prequels to bridge the gap between DYRL? and Flashback 2012's version of the First Space War and Macross II's Mardook war.

[aurance]

Oh my gosh I would love to see a diagram of the VF-22 engines.

[David Hingtgen]

The YF-21's GERWALK-mode exhaust louvers would almost certainly be considered a cascade array. Or at least cascade vanes.

[tout-puissant]

Hey, let's talk about the Ranga Island ship! Tiny plot spoilers for Episodes 13-14 specifically, but I'm not going to use code.

The dialogue has the Windermereans calling it literally the "Ragna Island Ship" (RIS), so that's what I'll use here.

Hayate mentions that the ship hasn't flown in thirty+ years, so at least 2037 - a year before the Macross 7 fleet left Earth. I know it's a source of ongoing conjecture as to *what* fleet colonized Ragna, whether it was Macross 1 or not. The evidence shows that a lid-less colony ship that *was* larger than the RIS had landed at some point (implied to be first contact), which used the same CGI model as Frontier with a few modifications, but not the same design seen in Macross 7, that was identified as the Macross 1 herself. My conjecture is that the RIS was PART of one of those early fleets, thus fitting the lidless design motif, and that after the big Macross fleet contacted the Ragnans, the RIS was dropped off and the rest of the fleet moved on. The next most likely alternative was that the RIS was part of some non-Macross expedition that came along later.

The ship that could have originally been mated to the RIS is almost certainly not Elysion. The standard docking port doesn't look at all like a compatible shape. Assuming the designers of the show gave enough forethought to it, I'd say that it was designed for a Guantanamo-class ship. They have a couple of those in the surviving fleet, but the docking area was apparently damaged (resulting in Elysion having to mount the RIS all doggie-style) so it follows that they wouldn't simply connect one of the ships they have to the traditional area. But who knows, maybe the docking area can be reconfigured on the fly to accept other designs.

As noted elsewhere, we're given a peek into the UNS/NUNS colonization policy, in that a ship be kept ready to evacuate the colonial population IN ADDITION to a capital warship being maintained as the centre of the local defense fleet. I'm guessing then that Island One from Frontier, assuming they stayed on Vajra, would have been repaired and kept at a certain state of readiness... Still, I'd imagine that newly-established colonies could be in potential danger for many years as they established themselves on a new planet, without knowing for sure who could invade from above, how the planet fares environmentally in the long run, or who could show up from the indigenous population and start eating them or something.

The RIS took off in a hurry, and supposedly without adequate preparation or even properly warming up the engines, causing them to fail after their fold... A little odd considering everyone knew that Ragna was in the crosshairs and they might need an escape ship for the local population should things go south, which is exactly what happened. After thirty years though, it's certainly possible that the policy to maintain the ship was relaxed somewhat to a mere token state of readiness to keep the locals happy.

And who knows what the actual local population was for the Ragna colony city was, but there seems to be a crunch of space for everyone aboard. Perhaps they simply hadn't been able to assign billets to everyone, but there were a whole lot of people milling around and chilling on blankets on the ground. It makes sense that they didn't have an instant evacuation plan besides "everyone get on the ship!", so I'd be interested in seeing how the RIS changes as they get around to fixing all the damage and even just turning all the lights on.

Mark

Edited July 7, 2016 by tout-puissant

[Seto Kaiba]

Hayate mentions that the ship hasn't flown in thirty+ years, so at least 2037 - a year before the Macross 7 fleet left Earth. I know it's a source of ongoing conjecture as to *what* fleet colonized Ragna, whether it was Macross 1 or not. The evidence shows that a lid-less colony ship that *was* larger than the RIS had landed at some point (implied to be first contact), which used the same CGI model as Frontier with a few modifications, but not the same design seen in Macross 7, that was identified as the Macross 1 herself. My conjecture is that the RIS was PART of one of those early fleets, thus fitting the lidless design motif, and that after the big Macross fleet contacted the Ragnans, the RIS was dropped off and the rest of the fleet moved on. The next most likely alternative was that the RIS was part of some non-Macross expedition that came along later.

CG model reuse is pretty blatant in this series, but that can generally be overlooked. It's highly probable that this is meant to be the same class as seen in Macross 7, but simply looks different due to CG model reuse.

If she hasn't flown in over thirty years, then it's pretty much a slam dunk that it's intended to be one of the earliest of the 3rd Generation emigrant ships... the City-type New Macross-class. Unless they're rewriting emigrant fleet history (again), this would have to be a New Macross-class ship because that was the first class to have the dome structure and it had only been around for a few years at the latest point which this ship could/should have launched. As the Ragna island ship has no shell, and we know Macross-5 had one and the whereabouts of Macross-3 and Macross-4, that leaves Macross-1 or Macross-2. It's possible it was one of the smaller domeships seen in the Macross-1 fleet, and the primary ship settled elsewhere.

The ship that could have originally been mated to the RIS is almost certainly not Elysion. The standard docking port doesn't look at all like a compatible shape. Assuming the designers of the show gave enough forethought to it, I'd say that it was designed for a Guantanamo-class ship. They have a couple of those in the surviving fleet, but the docking area was apparently damaged (resulting in Elysion having to mount the RIS all doggie-style) so it follows that they wouldn't simply connect one of the ships they have to the traditional area. But who knows, maybe the docking area can be reconfigured on the fly to accept other designs.

As evidenced by Macross-5, it's not unheard-of for an emigrant fleet with multiple city ships to apparently possess multiple Battle-class carriers. There should be several Battle-class ships spread out through the Brisingr cluster as a result of being colonized by one or more of the twenty-one inhabited planets in the cluster. Oddly, they're conspicuous by their absence... which is very odd, because they were meant to be a command ship for the colony's defense fleet. They had ships of every other class present, and yet they make no effort or mention of any other ship attempting (or being able to) dock with the city ship.

And who knows what the actual local population was for the Ragna colony city was, but there seems to be a crunch of space for everyone aboard. Perhaps they simply hadn't been able to assign billets to everyone, but there were a whole lot of people milling around and chilling on blankets on the ground. It makes sense that they didn't have an instant evacuation plan besides "everyone get on the ship!", so I'd be interested in seeing how the RIS changes as they get around to fixing all the damage and even just turning all the lights on.

I would expect that the ship was probably only meant to house (and probably still housed) the human population of Ragna... and that it wasn't really intended to evacuate the locals as well.

[SebastianP]

CG model reuse is pretty blatant in this series, but that can generally be overlooked. It's highly probable that this is meant to be the same class as seen in Macross 7, but simply looks different due to CG model reuse.

If she hasn't flown in over thirty years, then it's pretty much a slam dunk that it's intended to be one of the earliest of the 3rd Generation emigrant ships... the City-type New Macross-class. Unless they're rewriting emigrant fleet history (again), this would have to be a New Macross-class ship because that was the first class to have the dome structure and it had only been around for a few years at the latest point which this ship could/should have launched. As the Ragna island ship has no shell, and we know Macross-5 had one and the whereabouts of Macross-3 and Macross-4, that leaves Macross-1 or Macross-2. It's possible it was one of the smaller domeships seen in the Macross-1 fleet, and the primary ship settled elsewhere.

As evidenced by Macross-5, it's not unheard-of for an emigrant fleet with multiple city ships to apparently possess multiple Battle-class carriers. There should be several Battle-class ships spread out through the Brisingr cluster as a result of being colonized by one or more of the twenty-one inhabited planets in the cluster. Oddly, they're conspicuous by their absence... which is very odd, because they were meant to be a command ship for the colony's defense fleet. They had ships of every other class present, and yet they make no effort or mention of any other ship attempting (or being able to) dock with the city ship.

I would expect that the ship was probably only meant to house (and probably still housed) the human population of Ragna... and that it wasn't really intended to evacuate the locals as well.

I don't think there needs to be any full scale New Macross fleets in the Brisingr cluster.

Basically, what I think happened was that after Megaroad-04 discovered and landed on Windermere, they sent their escorts out to look around, found the other planets, and reported back to Earth who sent out targeted colony ships to the planets of the Brisingr Cluster. These wouldn't have needed anything like the endurance or population of a New Macross-type fleet (which set out without a firm destination in mind and can take a decade or two to find a place to settle), hence the smaller dome we see on Ragna (which is not much larger than a Megaroad, and way smaller than even the smaller domes in the Macross 1 fleet).

As for what ship the Ragna island ship is designed to dock with, based on the shape of the docking apparatus and the size of the dome I'm guessing either a Northampton or a Guantanamo. Certainly not a New Macross Battle class, because that would be almost as big as the whole dome. It is mentioned in the show that the docking apparatus is broken though.

[RedWolf]

Barrette City to me seems smaller than City 7 and similar older City class. After watching Macross 7 episode 26 Deathmatch at Rax I noticed the fleet had smaller island ships.

[tout-puissant]

The RIS (not sure it should be called Barrette City, since I believe that would count the whole municipality AND the colony ship) is definitely a new CG model now, though previously it had been hand-drawn. The re-use of the Island One model in episodes 1 and 5 of Delta can't be conclusively implied to be the same ship IMO.

And the Macross 7 fleet had only one dome-style ship. The other colony ships in the fleet were more specialized and smaller, and only two had a dome-esque appearance, unless you also count the cemetery ship from Macross 7 Trash:

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/riviera-resortship.htm

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/sunnyflower.htm

The Macross 5 fleet had at least three identical-looking dome ship blocks, and New Macross class carriers to go with them. The Macross 1 fleet had one big, lidless dome ship and several smaller dome ships of similar design (attached to NMBCs as well, or so it seems); and if the RIS was part of that fleet or Macross 2, then they had smaller-still designs along for the ride.

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/newmacross/newmacross1.jpg

Mark

Edited July 8, 2016 by tout-puissant

[SebastianP]

The RIS (not sure it should be called Barrette City, since I believe that would count the whole municipality AND the colony ship) is definitely a new CG model now, though previously it had been hand-drawn. The re-use of the Island One model in episodes 1 and 5 of Delta can't be conclusively implied to be the same ship IMO.

And the Macross 7 fleet had only one dome-style ship. The other colony ships in the fleet were more specialized and smaller, and only two had a dome-esque appearance, unless you also count the cemetery ship from Macross 7 Trash:

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/riviera-resortship.htm

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/sunnyflower.htm

The Macross 5 fleet had at least three identical-looking dome ship blocks, and New Macross class carriers to go with them. The Macross 1 fleet had one big, lidless dome ship and several smaller dome ships of similar design (attached to NMBCs as well, or so it seems); and if the RIS was part of that fleet or Macross 2, then they had smaller-still designs along for the ride.

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/newmacross/newmacross1.jpg

Mark

I'm not sure the ship in episode 1 is an Island One-type vessel, whatever that is docked to the front doesn't really look like an NMBC. Hard to tell from the angle though. The ship in Episode 5's pre-opening sequence is definitely the same one we're always seeing on Ragna though (and now in space too) - it has the buildings sticking out of the dome.

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't think there needs to be any full scale New Macross fleets in the Brisingr cluster.

Personally, I don't see how there couldn't be... city-ships like that only came with two classes that we know of: the New Macross-class and Island Cluster-class.

Basically, what I think happened was that after Megaroad-04 discovered and landed on Windermere, they sent their escorts out to look around, found the other planets, and reported back to Earth who sent out targeted colony ships to the planets of the Brisingr Cluster. These wouldn't have needed anything like the endurance or population of a New Macross-type fleet (which set out without a firm destination in mind and can take a decade or two to find a place to settle), hence the smaller dome we see on Ragna (which is not much larger than a Megaroad, and way smaller than even the smaller domes in the Macross 1 fleet).

As for what ship the Ragna island ship is designed to dock with, based on the shape of the docking apparatus and the size of the dome I'm guessing either a Northampton or a Guantanamo. Certainly not a New Macross Battle class, because that would be almost as big as the whole dome. It is mentioned in the show that the docking apparatus is broken though.

Unless they retcon the established information, that kind of targeted colonization isn't done with long-range missions because it can take years to get from Point A to Point B by space fold even if the metaphorical pedal is to the metal.

Logically, assuming Megaroad-04 was the first one to discover the Brisingr cluster held multiple inhabitable worlds, they would signal other large-scale long-distance emigrant fleets to converge on that area and explore it further. The Brisingr cluster is an area over 800 light years in diameter, a distance considered to be a long-range fold by even a modern 5th Generation emigrant ship. For the more primitive and less-efficient fold systems of a 1st Generation emigrant ship and its escorts (some of which may not have even had fold systems) spreading out to span an area that size would almost certainly be unsustainable and would put the newly established colony out of touch with its defense fleet for months if not years. The (New) UN Government has launched over 59 long-distance emigrant fleets... it'd be insane for a cluster that had more than twenty inhabitable planets to be controlled by a single emigrant fleet of less than 100,000 and progressively settled by small ships when you have millions of people ready and waiting to settle on planets like that. (The Brisingr cluster has a population of over eight billion... you can bet a good chunk of that is humans.)

The most logical explanation, given the evidence, is that the city ship that was formerly part of Barette City is one of the smaller shell-less dome ships seen in the establishing shot of Macross-1's launch back in Macross 7.

[tout-puissant]

I'm not sure the ship in episode 1 is an Island One-type vessel, whatever that is docked to the front doesn't really look like an NMBC. Hard to tell from the angle though. The ship in Episode 5's pre-opening sequence is definitely the same one we're always seeing on Ragna though (and now in space too) - it has the buildings sticking out of the dome.

It sure does have buildings sticking out, but far more than we see on the RIS and far more densely packed. My belief is that the Episode 5 ship is the Frontier model with the buildings drawn in (as well as the lid being removed of course) for the one static shot we see. Besides, City 7 also shows buildings sticking through the dome, in a similar density to the Episode 5 ship. The RIS buildings really feature just two that pop through the dome, two identical, cylindrical towers that were consistently seen in both the CG and hand-drawn versions.

Crappy screenshots for analysis:

Within are the ships seen in Episode 1 (from the underside, which I think is the Island 1 + Battle Frontier model), Epsiode 5 (again Island 1, sans lid, with a hand-drawn skyline), and the RIS model (from Episode 13, complete with crappy CG buildings withing, and with Aether for scale comparison).

It's not a sure deal, but given the scale of Island 1 I'm willing to conclude that the ship sticking out of the front in Epsiode 1 (and probably 5) is the lower-poly CG model used for distance shots through most of Frontier.

http://s26.photobucket.com/user/ReddyRedWolf/media/MacrossFrontierGunshipProtusionless.jpg.html

The RIS model from episode 13 onwards has a number of differences from other dome ships, notably the "sawtooth" like protruberances around the rim and the large structure off the rear end that Elysion mates with (sic). Now, none of this means that the ships seen in episodes 1 and 5 are Island one or meant to be that big - these were not meant to be scrutinized THAT much, but we're nerds for this thing after all. I'm only extrapolating from visual evidence that the ships from episodes 1 and 5 are NOT the RIS, nor are either intended to be.

Mark

Edited July 8, 2016 by tout-puissant

[SebastianP]

Personally, I don't see how there couldn't be... city-ships like that only came with two classes that we know of: the New Macross-class and Island Cluster-class.

Unless they retcon the established information, that kind of targeted colonization isn't done with long-range missions because it can take years to get from Point A to Point B by space fold even if the metaphorical pedal is to the metal.

Logically, assuming Megaroad-04 was the first one to discover the Brisingr cluster held multiple inhabitable worlds, they would signal other large-scale long-distance emigrant fleets to converge on that area and explore it further. The Brisingr cluster is an area over 800 light years in diameter, a distance considered to be a long-range fold by even a modern 5th Generation emigrant ship. For the more primitive and less-efficient fold systems of a 1st Generation emigrant ship and its escorts (some of which may not have even had fold systems) spreading out to span an area that size would almost certainly be unsustainable and would put the newly established colony out of touch with its defense fleet for months if not years. The (New) UN Government has launched over 59 long-distance emigrant fleets... it'd be insane for a cluster that had more than twenty inhabitable planets to be controlled by a single emigrant fleet of less than 100,000 and progressively settled by small ships when you have millions of people ready and waiting to settle on planets like that. (The Brisingr cluster has a population of over eight billion... you can bet a good chunk of that is humans.)

The most logical explanation, given the evidence, is that the city ship that was formerly part of Barette City is one of the smaller shell-less dome ships seen in the establishing shot of Macross-1's launch back in Macross 7.

I still think the Barette City dome is too small to have been one of those. Even at a minimum, the domes in the Macross 1 shot would have to be something along the lines of 3 km long, and that's without an Uraga at the front. The more I look at the Barette City dome, I get the feeling it's less than two kilometers from one end to the other, based on the known size of the Elysion.

If the Elysion had been the size of an NMBC or bigger the way people thought from initial scaling (when someone scaled out the Aether and got 700-900 meters for it alone) - then I'd have bought the idea that the Ragna dome is the same size as the Macross 1 domes. But as it is, it's just way too tiny.

I'm not saying the Ragna dome categorically can't have been part of a Macross colony fleet, just that it's not a ship type we've seen before unless it's been totally re-imagined.

[Seto Kaiba]

I still think the Barette City dome is too small to have been one of those. Even at a minimum, the domes in the Macross 1 shot would have to be something along the lines of 3 km long, and that's without an Uraga at the front. The more I look at the Barette City dome, I get the feeling it's less than two kilometers from one end to the other, based on the known size of the Elysion.

If the Elysion had been the size of an NMBC or bigger the way people thought from initial scaling (when someone scaled out the Aether and got 700-900 meters for it alone) - then I'd have bought the idea that the Ragna dome is the same size as the Macross 1 domes. But as it is, it's just way too tiny.

I'm not saying the Ragna dome categorically can't have been part of a Macross colony fleet, just that it's not a ship type we've seen before unless it's been totally re-imagined.

All told, I think it's pretty evident that the city ship in question is a reuse of the Island-1 CG model from Macross Frontier and we just weren't supposed to notice.

Elysion's only something like 400-500m long in cruiser mode, and the presentation of it in proximity to the dome suggests that the dome must be a good 3-4km long but only about 400-500m tall. Slightly smaller, but a lot flatter, than the typical city ship.

EDIT: Confirmed, it's the Island-1 model... they didn't even remove the observation platform over the SMS Macross Quarter's dock from the top-down views.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[SebastianP]

All told, I think it's pretty evident that the city ship in question is a reuse of the Island-1 CG model from Macross Frontier and we just weren't supposed to notice.

Elysion's only something like 400-500m long in cruiser mode, and the presentation of it in proximity to the dome suggests that the dome must be a good 3-4km long but only about 400-500m tall. Slightly smaller, but a lot flatter, than the typical city ship.

EDIT: Confirmed, it's the Island-1 model... they didn't even remove the observation platform over the SMS Macross Quarter's dock from the top-down views.

If the Elysion was 400-500 meters long, it would be no bigger than the Quarter in ship mode, which does not compute. Plus, the Aether and Hemera would be smaller than Guantanamo-class carriers, which does not compute either.

If we accept the 820-something meter height for the Elysion's attacker mode, then the ship mode basically has to be 600 to 700 meters long. And I never got the slightest hint that the colony ship was more than three times as long as the Elysion either way.

Meh, we can argue this forever, we'll get official stats from a magazine one of these days.

[Seto Kaiba]

If the Elysion was 400-500 meters long, it would be no bigger than the Quarter in ship mode, which does not compute. Plus, the Aether and Hemera would be smaller than Guantanamo-class carriers, which does not compute either.

If we accept the 820-something meter height for the Elysion's attacker mode, then the ship mode basically has to be 600 to 700 meters long. And I never got the slightest hint that the colony ship was more than three times as long as the Elysion either way.

Meh, we can argue this forever, we'll get official stats from a magazine one of these days.

At most, it's maybe 600m long... the way the legs fold in its transformation cuts a good chunk out of its length.

The Elysion's only 828m in storm attacker mode with the BASTER-L and BASTER-R included... the lower legs are almost exactly half the ship's total height, and the Aether and Hemera are significantly smaller than the legs. They're also much narrower in profile than the Guantanamo-class... so I'd say they are in all likelihood smaller than the Guantanamo-class in all respects. (That, in conjunction with the integration of a heavy quantum reaction cannon, would certainly explain why the Macross Elysion's fighter complement only seems to be about 1/2 of the officially-stated capacity of the Guantanamo-class.)

[tout-puissant]

EDIT: Confirmed, it's the Island-1 model... they didn't even remove the observation platform over the SMS Macross Quarter's dock from the top-down views.

<Looks really, REALLY closely>

By Jove, you're right. I think at least the topside of the RIS a very heavily modified version of the Island One model. Some things are identical, like the SMS Quarter's berth and the doodads sticking out of the port and starboard sides, but if you examine the actual dome closely, the pattern of the train lines snaking across the dome is the same as Island One too. But here's the kicker - the 2D map used as the cityscape "floor" is the same, only with minor modifications! You can see the same hills, green spaces, and the huge lake at the rear end, as on Island One. Compare the pic of the RIS that I uploaded with the overhead view here:

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossf/macross25/macross25-schematictop.jpg

Now to be fair, there HAVE been a number of significant modifications. The entire perimeter of the RIS has the sawtooth shapes I mentioned before that aren't on Island One at all, the forward fins are comparatively smaller and shaped differently, the big boxy thing is off the aft end, and of course it's filled with dull grey buildings now. I've capped a ventral view now, so you can see there are significant differences in the texture maps used.

So, while not a shameless re-use of the previous model, it's still a significantly disguised / modified version. Very Star Trek, to use the comparison - they used one model for a Klingon Bird of Prey to represent at least four sizes of ship over the years.

Still, I agree the INTENT is that the RIS is a smaller craft that any dome-style ship we've seen before. It's just too small when the Aether or Elysion are right next to it to be more than a couple klicks in length.

Mark

Edited July 8, 2016 by tout-puissant

[Ghostbear0]

So do we know that the 800m length on the Elision referee to storm attack mode? Because if it say refers to its cruiser mode length without the Aether and Hemera then she is the size of a NMBC or larger which brings the Island more in line with know vessels of the class.

[Kelsain]

I'm ok thinking of it as a smaller accessory ship, similar to the Sunnyflower or Hollywood ships in the 7 Fleet. Maybe it's an earlier model to combat congestion in the main ship. In the overhead shot for ep13, there are far fewer buildings than on City7.

Let's call it a "Suburb-Class" colony ship.

Keep in mind too, that Ragna was already inhabited when the fleet arrived. Maybe they just left one colony ship and its escort as part of the UN inclusion of Ragna, while the rest of the fleet kept searching for an uncivilized planet.

[Seto Kaiba]

So do we know that the 800m length on the Elision referee to storm attack mode? Because if it say refers to its cruiser mode length without the Aether and Hemera then she is the size of a NMBC or larger which brings the Island more in line with know vessels of the class.

The figure we're given is not length, it's the Macross Elysion's total height while in Storm Attacker mode... 828m, the same as the Burj Khalifa (which is the comparison made along with giving the figure). All things being proportional, that makes her roughly twice the size of the Macross Quarter, or around half the size of the bulkier Macross-class and about 1/3 the size of an initial-type Battle-class if you factor in the extra mass that came with the gunship.

[Ghostbear0]

That makes her an..... odd design for chaos to field. She seems to be a gunboat with minimal fighter support of her own. That's a great thing in most NUN's fleets since most of their ships lean heavily towards the carrier side, but what do a bunch of merks spread over several planets need with a capital ship Hunter?

[tout-puissant]

I think that could be how Chaos got their hands on her in the first place - taking a ship no one else wanted to field. After all, SMS seemed to have Quarter only because they'd been contracted to test that ship out, no?

NUNS seems far and away to NOT be ship-sized robot based otherwise we'd have tons of Quarters and Elysions and Battles and SDF-04 Globals around, but even in 2067 they seem to be pretty rare. For whatever reason they seem to stick to fleets of non-transforming carriers and combatants, but not the larger, more expensive Macross type of ship. Granted their nominal expense would preclude EVERYONE having one, but you'd think that their general utility in combat would mean you'd get more than one per fleet, or one per globular cluster as the case seems to be here.

Mark

[Ghostbear0]

Not really. When you consider that the various macross class are super dreadnaughts and super carrier rolled into one the ratio of lesser ships isn't that nuts. Though where all the SDFN and Battle Classes whose fleets have setaled have run off to is an interesting question. Maybe Spacy has fast reaction forces with multiple macross class to deal with large threats like rogue zentrati fleets. Mind there wouldn't have been enough spare during 7 but if they exist they darn shure should have shown up in Frontier. Or maybe I just want Spacy to function like well a functional military.

[Kelsain]

I want to watch that show!

[RedWolf]

That makes her an..... odd design for chaos to field. She seems to be a gunboat with minimal fighter support of her own. That's a great thing in most NUN's fleets since most of their ships lean heavily towards the carrier side, but what do a bunch of merks spread over several planets need with a capital ship Hunter?

When Lost Zentradi fleets come close I guess. Aerial Knight prequel side story had Aerial Knights about to be deployed against one at the request of NUNS as they and Windermere has a mutual defense treaty.

Not really. When you consider that the various macross class are super dreadnaughts and super carrier rolled into one the ratio of lesser ships isn't that nuts. Though where all the SDFN and Battle Classes whose fleets have setaled have run off to is an interesting question. Maybe Spacy has fast reaction forces with multiple macross class to deal with large threats like rogue zentrati fleets. Mind there wouldn't have been enough spare during 7 but if they exist they darn shure should have shown up in Frontier. Or maybe I just want Spacy to function like well a functional military.

In the Wings of Goodbye novelization Macross 13 was part of the SMS-NUNS combined fleet along with Battle 7. Macross 13 was the fleet the VF-X Ravens were part of in VF-X2. Basically a response fleet to troubles on frontier planets. In the Frontier TV novelization adaptation Macross 13 defended Earth from the Vajra during Grace's invasion.

Edited July 9, 2016 by RedWolf

[Seto Kaiba]

That makes her an..... odd design for chaos to field. She seems to be a gunboat with minimal fighter support of her own. That's a great thing in most NUN's fleets since most of their ships lean heavily towards the carrier side, but what do a bunch of merks spread over several planets need with a capital ship Hunter?

Very much so, yes... the Macross Elysion seems like exactly the wrong kind of ship for a private military contractor headquartered out in the space boonies to be operating.

Their whole operation doesn't make a ton of sense, but the Elysion seems like the worst possible combination of design features for what their day-to-day operations would be. The actual Macross Elysion itself is not particularly well-armed for a Macross, or even simply for a ship of its size. Her only actual armaments are a handful of converging energy cannon turrets mounted on the hull, and she doesn't seem to have an aircraft hangar or destroid complement of her own. Without the Aether and the Hemera she's essentially little more than an overcomplicated alternative to the New UN Spacy's stealth cruiser¹, and the Aether and the Hemera don't seem to be particularly effective or capable carriers for their size either. Individually they seem to be somewhat smaller than a Guantanamo-class space stealth carrier, but combined the two are apparently carrying about half the capacity of a single Guantanamo-class or a Macross Quarter-class ship.

On the whole, the Macross Elysion seems to be a much less effective warship than anything we've seen before... she's basically a less-capable Macross Quarter-class alternative at twice the size.

I think that could be how Chaos got their hands on her in the first place - taking a ship no one else wanted to field. After all, SMS seemed to have Quarter only because they'd been contracted to test that ship out, no?

NUNS seems far and away to NOT be ship-sized robot based otherwise we'd have tons of Quarters and Elysions and Battles and SDF-04 Globals around, but even in 2067 they seem to be pretty rare. For whatever reason they seem to stick to fleets of non-transforming carriers and combatants, but not the larger, more expensive Macross type of ship. Granted their nominal expense would preclude EVERYONE having one, but you'd think that their general utility in combat would mean you'd get more than one per fleet, or one per globular cluster as the case seems to be here.

Mark

As I noted before, what's weird in Macross Delta is that an area so densely populated by emigrant fleets seems to have had all of its Battle-class ships go walkabout. Each New Macross-class, Island Cluster-class, or whatever the Macross Galaxy was had AT LEAST one Battle-class supercarrier for its defense. They've been building variants of the Battle-class for decades, after all. It's less surprising that we haven't seen a lot of Macross Quarter-class ships, since in the Macross Frontier series that class was literally brand new and still in testing when the war with the Vajra began. (She still had that "new warship" smell, y'know?) It's supposed to be the standard for an emigrant world to have at least one transformable super-warship in orbit as the de facto flagship of the planetary defense fleet. That was still true at the end of Frontier, so we're left to wonder where all the ones in the Brisingr cluster went.

The only ones that weren't supposed to have been produced in significant numbers were the old mass-produced Macross-class, because those were mostly for reconnaissance rather than for fleet defense.

Not really. When you consider that the various macross class are super dreadnaughts and super carrier rolled into one the ratio of lesser ships isn't that nuts. Though where all the SDFN and Battle Classes whose fleets have setaled have run off to is an interesting question. Maybe Spacy has fast reaction forces with multiple macross class to deal with large threats like rogue zentrati fleets. Mind there wouldn't have been enough spare during 7 but if they exist they darn shure should have shown up in Frontier. Or maybe I just want Spacy to function like well a functional military.

Certainly a fair theory, given that we've never actually seen the federal New UN Forces of the space emigration era before... the defense forces of the emigrant fleets are the local New UN Forces, which are more along the lines of national guard reservists or a state militia. Even in the Macross Frontier movie, the fleet that relieved the 55th Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet was made up of forces from other emigrant fleets.

When Lost Zentradi fleets come close I guess. Aerial Knight prequel side story had Aerial Knights about to be deployed against one at the request of NUNS as they and Windermere has a mutual defense treaty.

In the Wings of Goodbye novelization Macross 13 was part of the SMS-NUNS combined fleet along with Battle 7. Macross 13 was the fleet the VF-X Ravens were part of in VF-X2. Basically a response fleet to troubles on frontier planets. In the Frontier TV novelization adaptation Macross 13 defended Earth from the Vajra during Grace's invasion.

IIRC, there may be multiple Macross-13's... it being the code for a warship that doesn't officially exist.

1. The only time this class has been named is in a Circle FANKY dojinshi, which calls it the Osaka-class.

[SebastianP]

Very much so, yes... the Macross Elysion seems like exactly the wrong kind of ship for a private military contractor headquartered out in the space boonies to be operating.

Their whole operation doesn't make a ton of sense, but the Elysion seems like the worst possible combination of design features for what their day-to-day operations would be. The actual Macross Elysion itself is not particularly well-armed for a Macross, or even simply for a ship of its size. Her only actual armaments are a handful of converging energy cannon turrets mounted on the hull, and she doesn't seem to have an aircraft hangar or destroid complement of her own. Without the Aether and the Hemera she's essentially little more than an overcomplicated alternative to the New UN Spacy's stealth cruiser¹, and the Aether and the Hemera don't seem to be particularly effective or capable carriers for their size either. Individually they seem to be somewhat smaller than a Guantanamo-class space stealth carrier, but combined the two are apparently carrying about half the capacity of a single Guantanamo-class or a Macross Quarter-class ship.

On the whole, the Macross Elysion seems to be a much less effective warship than anything we've seen before... she's basically a less-capable Macross Quarter-class alternative at twice the size.

"Handful of turrets"

I counted 13 of the twin "Converging Beam" turrets on the Elysion itself (3 on the torso, 5 on each spire); plus another four on each carrier. That's 21 turrets, or 42 barrels - more than on the Battle Frontier, the previous reigning champion of beam spam (12 twins and 4 triples, for a total of 36 barrels).

*On top* of that, the Elysion carries twelve twin "Quarter Cannon" turrets, which are much beefier. The Quarter herself only carried ten of these. (and I'm still not convinced the Elysion's turrets aren't bigger versions.)

Then there's the *two* Macross Cannons.

Basically, the Elysion has more visible weapons than the Battle Frontier and the Quarter (movie version) *combined*. It is *stupendously* heavily armed.

(As for lighter weapons, Frontier is supposed to have some guns on each leg but they're only really visible in the overall shots on M3 as small smudges, and not at all in the show due to angles not covering that part; Elysion on the other hand sports six twin turrets on each leg for apparent anti-mecha purposes.)

As for the size of the Aether and Hemera, I'm still fairly certain they're bigger than a Guantanamo, and that the stated air wing of the Guantanamo requires TARDIS tech to actually fit inside the ship. The one for the Quarter *certainly* does, as the ship is physically not big enough to fit everything that the specs say it has. The Elysion's arms are the only carriers shown in the show to date that look like they can actually fit the airwing we see them operate...

Edited July 9, 2016 by SebastianP

[This Confuses Gamlin]

that the stated air wing of the Guantanamo requires TARDIS tech to actually fit inside the ship. The one for the Quarter *certainly* does, as the ship is physically not big enough to fit everything that the specs say it has.

Argh, I was just looking at pictures of this the other day, including a discussion of how to cram the Koenig Monster into the Quarter's carrier, and I can't remember how I got to them. Google isn't giving any familiar hits. Help?

Edited July 9, 2016 by This Confuses Gamlin

[Seto Kaiba]

"Handful of turrets"

I counted 13 of the twin "Converging Beam" turrets on the Elysion itself (3 on the torso, 5 on each spire); plus another four on each carrier. That's 21 turrets, or 42 barrels - more than on the Battle Frontier, the previous reigning champion of beam spam (12 twins and 4 triples, for a total of 36 barrels).

*On top* of that, the Elysion carries twelve twin "Quarter Cannon" turrets, which are much beefier. The Quarter herself only carried ten of these. (and I'm still not convinced the Elysion's turrets aren't bigger versions.)

So... a couple points here.

• I think you may be counting several of these turrets two or three times apiece. I've given it an eyes-on review and only found twenty-four turrets in total spread across the entire ship: fourteen on the main body, and a further ten split evenly between BASTER-L and BASTER-R. I'm not counting CIWS guns here.

• Just for the record, the "Quarter Cannon" is just another name for a super dimension energy cannon... there are a good dozen different variations on that theme these days, depending partly on who's using it, how the beam is aimed, how it's focused, etc.

• Given that a standard stealth cruiser has eleven beam cannon turrets and the Macross Quarter-class can have anywhere from ten to twenty-four, having fourteen beam gun turrets doesn't give the larger Macross Elysion much of an advantage... especially given that the ship's unusual shape of the ship builds some fairly significant blind spots in the coverage of those turrets.

• Also, as a side note, it's worth remembering that the Battle-class official specs give them not just the large turrets mounted on the upper hull... but also a large, indeterminate number of retractable beam cannon turrets scattered around the rest of the hull. The ones you mention are simply the heaviest guns it has, not the only ones. (These guns have been seen firing in official art, but not in animation that I can recall offhand.)

Then there's the *two* Macross Cannons.

That would be supposition, not a fact. It's probable, but it's not confirmed.

Also, the Elysion's macross cannon doesn't seem to be particularly powerful... certainly much closer to the Macross Quarter's than the one on a Macross-class or Battle-class.

As for the size of the Aether and Hemera, I'm still fairly certain they're bigger than a Guantanamo, and that the stated air wing of the Guantanamo requires TARDIS tech to actually fit inside the ship. The one for the Quarter *certainly* does, as the ship is physically not big enough to fit everything that the specs say it has. The Elysion's arms are the only carriers shown in the show to date that look like they can actually fit the airwing we see them operate...

We've gone over your claims about size and the unreliability of that dojinshi you cite several times, so we don't need to rehash that again.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Seto Kaiba