Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[sketchley]

In an atmosphere you do not want hot, pre-warmed air entering the turbine. You want cold air, the denser the air the more efficient the turbine works. As stated before the heat dissipation in space for a VF is one of the mysteries that has been brought up before on here and at this point all we can do is come up with theories. (...)

The VFMF books (not part of the official setting) state that extra fuel is stored in a slush-like state. Presumably the heating of that into a gaseous state would offset some of the heat produced in the engines - especially because that fuel is being used to both drive the reactor in the engine, and get flung out the rear to provide thrust (that's just about the extent of the description of the official setting info on the inner workings of the thermonuclear turbine engines).

Edited April 30, 2016 by sketchley

[grigolosi]

In space I am pretty sure some of the engine heat is used to warm or at least maintain certain temps within areas of the frame since the extreme cold of space can also damage components on the VF. I suggested the pre-heating of the hydrogen slush to a gaseous state as a use for the excess heat produced in a previous thread. The LOX systems on modern fighters (prior to OBOGS) used heating elements to warm the breathing oxygen into a gaseous state for the pilot. I imagine they would use some form of heating in the VF's fuel system for the same purpose. I have studied the VFMF's I have. Unfortunately I can't read to much of it. The stuff I have been able to translate has still left me with questions. I can tell you from studying teh engine cutaways, they make use of bypass air for cooling when operating in an atmosphere.

[Master Dex]

Now I'm imagining every valkyrie having a bread oven fitted behind the cockpit, and the pilot is expected to spend any spare time producing batch after batch of fresh rolls and baguettes. Then he tosses them into space, I guess...

Eject-able heat sinks are not an unheard of idea but likely not being used in this instance. (Ever play Mass Effect 2 and 3 though? The thermal clips that were used like ammo in the game were basically what you just described.)

In an atmosphere you do not want hot, pre-warmed air entering the turbine. You want cold air, the denser the air the more efficient the turbine works. As stated before the heat dissipation in space for a VF is one of the mysteries that has been brought up before on here and at this point all we can do is come up with theories. But in an atmosphere turbine engines use bypass air around the combuster, turbine and augmentor sections to draw heat away. The augmentor liners are usually made of highly heat resistant metal (Titanium presently) that is coated in ceramics and perforated to enhance cooling. Presently the newest engines produce around 2900 degrees F in the turbine inlet temp (the GE 132) we have run into issues here where I am at during the summer with the inlet temps being so high they are causing micro fractures around the aeration holes on the turbines so what ever materials they are using for the VF engines are seriously heat resistant. Also there is space within the aircraft between the engine and airframe that allows for heat dissipation. You also have to add in heat generated by the avionics, radar and ECS. In an atmosphere it is easy to dump heat but like stated before the mystery of heat disspation in the vacuum of space still remains with the VF designs.

Very good and succint explanation. You must either work in engine design or are a jet mechanic like me. Or maybe you are an enthusiast too (actually I'm all three of those technically). Anyway I bet the space metal of VFs is magically better at dealing with heat somehow. Overtechnology is basically an unobtanium with a slight amount of handwavium.

The VFMF books (not part of the official setting) state that extra fuel is stored in a slush-like state. Presumably the heating of that into a gaseous state would offset some of the heat produced in the engines - especially because that fuel is being used to both drive the reactor in the engine, and get flung out the rear to provide thrust (that's just about the extent of the description of the official setting info on the inner workings of the thermonuclear turbine engines).

Most fuel is stored as a liquid. Your description sounds like super cooled liquid though. An interesting concept. SpaceX does that with their liquid oxygen on the Falcon 9 right now.

[JB0]

.

Most fuel is stored as a liquid. Your description sounds like super cooled liquid though. An interesting concept. SpaceX does that with their liquid oxygen on the Falcon 9 right now.

Cryogenic fuels are pretty common in spaceflight and nuclear fusion.

In a Valk's case, the primary fuel is most likely liquid hydrogen... well, hydrogen slurpee, anyways.

[Seto Kaiba]

Most fuel is stored as a liquid. Your description sounds like super cooled liquid though. An interesting concept. SpaceX does that with their liquid oxygen on the Falcon 9 right now.

Cryogenic fuels are pretty common in spaceflight and nuclear fusion.

In a Valk's case, the primary fuel is most likely liquid hydrogen... well, hydrogen slurpee, anyways.

Hydrogen slush is a tricky one, since its "slush" state is at the triple point... so all three phases can coexist at the same temperature and pressure. NASA's been playing with the idea of using hydrogen slush as a rocket fuel for about fifty years now. (I've got some papers on their process for producing the stuff in industrial quantities from the 60's.)

Probably wouldn't do any harm to toss some heat into it, though I'd expect there are probably better coolants that could be used... the stuff's going to get awful warm in the fusion process anyway, before that heat is bled off in a substitute for a conventional turbine's burner stage or the plasma is bled off to become ion engine propellant for space flight.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[JB0]

Now I'm imagining every valkyrie having a bread oven fitted behind the cockpit, and the pilot is expected to spend any spare time producing batch after batch of fresh rolls and baguettes. Then he tosses them into space, I guess...

That is dangerously close to a practical thermal management technique. You just have to automate it.

Realistically, you'd be using some kind of ejectable liquid or gas. Warm it up, vent as needed.

Problems are that the technique incurs a lot of dead weight if you aren't using some substance that has a practical use, and discharges result in attitude changes to your vehicle unless very carefully controlled.

But if you can find something that needs addition heat that you're going to be ejecting later ANYWAYS... pre-warming fuel is an actual cooling technique used on rockets. They run the cryogenic fluids through tubes around the combustion chamber, and the heat is pulled out of the combustion chamber walls and used to raise the fuel temperature to something more convenient to work with. No icing of the fuel lines, no overheating of the combustion chamber, no excess weight from a dedicated cooling system. Everybody wins.

You could probably use the cryogenic hydrogen as a cooling system. Dump heat into the fuel lines via heat exchangers, which warms the fuel up so it doesn't ice the lines, and then inject the now-gaseous hydrogen into the fusion core.

If you need MORE cooling... You could probably have an emergency system that heats hydrogen fuel and then dumps the hot gas into the normal exhaust stream, bypassing the fusion reactor. But you wouldn't want to waste fuel like that if it could be avoided.

[Master Dex]

JB0 has it all pretty spot on, so I won't waste words on adding much to the topic that they didn't already say. They are right that most rocket fuels are cryogenically stored, with the exception of fuels that are liquids at room temperature already (such as RP-1, otherwise known as rocket grade kerosene). I can't say much for nuclear fusion considering the real world examples are still pretty far behind producing usable results. Luckily overtechnology has us covered there.

A note on rocket fuels though, while hydrogen is the best fuel in terms of efficiency due to its light weight (the lightest weight!), ease of heat conduction for the purposes of both propellant and heat exchange as previously discussed, I am almost 90% sure that Valkyries at least are not using hydrogen as their propellant in space.

To clarify, I am not talking about fusion fuel (in a real case, a form of hydrogen called deuterium would likely be in use but in Macross overtechnology reaction engines are stated in canon to be able to fuse almost anything, presumably with space magic*, which means fuel is easy to come by), but propellant. In atmosphere, Valkyries use the air around them as propellant, much like real world jet engines, except the inlet air is super heated into plasma by the fusion reactions as opposed to being mixed with fuel and ignited. In space it is often agreed valkyries make use of some limited on board propellant which implies they do have a fuel limit in space though this has never been seen in fiction. For any serious fusion powered spacecraft hydrogen is a very sensible propellant to use for a lot of the reasons stated earlier and by others in recent posts.

Hydrogen has drawbacks though. It's light weight makes it bulky and hard to pack. This is why it is cyrogenically stored in tanks to maximize the amount to be carried but even then it is still really bulky and requires large tanks and pumps, which need insulation to protect against the extreme cold of the super-cooled hydrogen which all adds more weight, driving mass saving tricks with specialized tanks. None of this is really applicable to a space fighter like a valkyrie. Luckily, one of the great benefits of torch ship style fusion reactors is that the propellant can be basically anything (even plain old water, which despite being part hydrogen packs way better) as long as the fusion reaction is hot enough to be able to heat the material to a plasma state to make an effective rocket exhaust. What might Valkyries be using? I have no clue, but the lack of giant fuel tanks makes me think it isn't pure hydrogen. Could be something with similar heat efficiency trade offs but more manageable density though, like ammonia, or maybe a specialized future Spacey-developed propellant mix. Whatever it is, it likely is super cooled (likely into a slush as mentioned) in order to pack a decent amount on board so it can operate for a decent amount of time before needing a top off.

That all being said, everything preceding about how hydrogen could be used was correct to my knowledge, and on larger spacecraft there is a lot more space to effectively use hydrogen for such things so it is entirely feasible they in fact still do. I merely was commenting on the comparatively small real estate of the valkyries themselves.

(* - magic here is defined as things Master Dex doesn't fully understand yet either due to lack of research or because it is something made up by clever writers.)

[sketchley]

You could probably use the cryogenic hydrogen as a cooling system. Dump heat into the fuel lines via heat exchangers, which warms the fuel up so it doesn't ice the lines, and then inject the now-gaseous hydrogen into the fusion core.

If you need MORE cooling... You could probably have an emergency system that heats hydrogen fuel and then dumps the hot gas into the normal exhaust stream, bypassing the fusion reactor. But you wouldn't want to waste fuel like that if it could be avoided.

I think the Valkyries in Macross are doing just that. The VF-1's prime weakness is the limited range in space - and when one considers that much of the "reactant" that fuels the reactor is getting tossed out the back as coolant/substitute for atmosphere, the reason for that limited range starts to get into painfully sharp relief.

[grigolosi]

Dex you are correct, I am an F-16 Crew Chief currently working on the Block 60 version here in the UAE.

I tend to lean in the direction of what JB0 said. Looking at a cutaway of a VF-25 I have noticed what looks like a heat exchanger of some type on top of the engine. But again since there are no actual external nomenclatures attached it is hard to say. The cutaway doesn't show the location of the thrustmounts either nor where the propellant lines route from so the information is limited. There are aircraft designs that use the fuel cells to help absorb excess heat from the engine but they tend to be located directly above the "hot" areas of the engine. They also use the fuel to cool the engine lubrication and hydraulic system by routing lines through the fuel tank. But with the design of a lot of the VF's in Macross the engine nacelles tend to be separated from the frame so neither approach would be easy or practical due to the variable requirements of the frame.

Edited May 1, 2016 by grigolosi

[akt_m]

Edited May 1, 2016 by akt_m

[seti88]

WOOOOHOOOOOO!

this and the

were highlights for valkheads!

Edited May 1, 2016 by seti88

[d3v]

Are those sound boosters? Are we about to get BOMBER!?!?

[Master Dex]

Dex you are correct, I am an F-16 Crew Chief currently working on the Block 60 version here in the UAE.

I tend to lean in the direction of what JB0 said. Looking at a cutaway of a VF-25 I have noticed what looks like a heat exchanger of some type on top of the engine. But again since there are no actual external nomenclatures attached it is hard to say. The cutaway doesn't show the location of the thrustmounts either nor where the propellant lines route from so the information is limited. There are aircraft designs that use the fuel cells to help absorb excess heat from the engine but they tend to be located directly above the "hot" areas of the engine. They also use the fuel to cool the engine lubrication and hydraulic system by routing lines through the fuel tank. But with the design of a lot of the VF's in Macross the engine nacelles tend to be separated from the frame so neither approach would be easy or practical due to the variable requirements of the frame.

Heheh, USAF GE-F110 engine mechanic here. Block 30 F-16s for me though (which are admittedly pretty old even here), we don't get them fancy 60s with their menacing fuel tank humps, lol. I also have a Bachelors in Aerospace Engineering with a focus on spacecraft propulsion which is where the rest of my knowledge is coming from (yes I know, why am I doing a mechanic job with that kind of education.. don't ask.. it's a long story).

I tend to not worry about the level of detail you are getting into. It would help us determine some of the stuff we are discussing for sure but with that data likely not available I am content to leave it to mild speculation usually.

[Seto Kaiba]

A note on rocket fuels though, while hydrogen is the best fuel in terms of efficiency due to its light weight (the lightest weight!), ease of heat conduction for the purposes of both propellant and heat exchange as previously discussed, I am almost 90% sure that Valkyries at least are not using hydrogen as their propellant in space.

Well, yes and no... there are hints in the various technical manuals like Sky Angels and Master File that the space-use propellant for a variable fighter's thermonuclear reaction turbine engines is plasma from the thermonuclear reactors and that it's used in what the Japanese writers would call a MPD arcjet engine.

The loss to operation time is the result of them consuming the reactor's fuel at an exponentially greater rate to meet system-level demand for both flight propellant and power generation... hence the need for much more capacious external fuel tanks and more conventional rockets for extended space operations. (There is a mention in Master File of waste heat from the system being put to use warming the fuel to a usable temperature.)

To clarify, I am not talking about fusion fuel (in a real case, a form of hydrogen called deuterium would likely be in use but in Macross overtechnology reaction engines are stated in canon to be able to fuse almost anything, presumably with space magic*, which means fuel is easy to come by), but propellant. In atmosphere, Valkyries use the air around them as propellant, much like real world jet engines, except the inlet air is super heated into plasma by the fusion reactions as opposed to being mixed with fuel and ignited. In space it is often agreed valkyries make use of some limited on board propellant which implies they do have a fuel limit in space though this has never been seen in fiction. For any serious fusion powered spacecraft hydrogen is a very sensible propellant to use for a lot of the reasons stated earlier and by others in recent posts.

That, at least, has a fairly straightforward explanation... the thermonuclear reaction engines aren't controlling the fusion reaction with convention means like radiation beams or magnetic fields, but rather using some rather precise gravity control. The principles aren't dissimilar to a converging beam cannon or a thermonuclear reaction warhead, really. You could think of it as emulating the behavior of a star. Hydrogen is presumably the fuel of choice because it's suitable for fusion AND so common that you can get it virtually anywhere.

[Product9]

Hey, why not convert waste heat into something else, say light? Then you can lose it by glowing, like the Valks in Frontier do for an otherwise inexplicable reason.

It would be the opposite of a stealth system, though...

[Master Dex]

Well, yes and no... there are hints in the various technical manuals like Sky Angels and Master File that the space-use propellant for a variable fighter's thermonuclear reaction turbine engines is plasma from the thermonuclear reactors and that it's used in what the Japanese writers would call a MPD arcjet engine.

The loss to operation time is the result of them consuming the reactor's fuel at an exponentially greater rate to meet system-level demand for both flight propellant and power generation... hence the need for much more capacious external fuel tanks and more conventional rockets for extended space operations. (There is a mention in Master File of waste heat from the system being put to use warming the fuel to a usable temperature.)

That, at least, has a fairly straightforward explanation... the thermonuclear reaction engines aren't controlling the fusion reaction with convention means like radiation beams or magnetic fields, but rather using some rather precise gravity control. The principles aren't dissimilar to a converging beam cannon or a thermonuclear reaction warhead, really. You could think of it as emulating the behavior of a star. Hydrogen is presumably the fuel of choice because it's suitable for fusion AND so common that you can get it virtually anywhere.

Ah, cool. I didn't know they had such details on how the engines work. Pure fusion engines like that are typically not high in thrust, but I can see how some overtech advantages might mitigate that. After all you did note it uses more fuel that it would in atmosphere, which implies it shifts gears so to speak. Thanks for the info.

Gravity induced fusion makes sense, and we know that gravity control is pretty straightforward for them at that point so it likely would be the best choice. My statement wasn't wrong to say though. That based on modern understanding, might as well be space magic, but at least it is magic we can put a name to and extrapolate the effects, lol.

Hey, why not convert waste heat into something else, say light? Then you can lose it by glowing, like the Valks in Frontier do for an otherwise inexplicable reason.

It would be the opposite of a stealth system, though...

Well the problem there is heat actually is light (or rather it has a direct relationship with it, I am simplifying things here for purposes of discussion). Heat is relational to infrared radiation which is one of the longer non-visible wavelengths of the red side of the electromagnetic radiation scale. (Radio, microwave, infrared, visible light, ultraviolet, x-rays, and gamma rays). When you see something glowing hot, it is because it is giving off so much electromagnetic radiation that it is radiating in multiple spectra, from visible which gives the glow you can see, to infrared which is a glow you can't see (but you can feel its effects as heat). The hotter an object, the more infrared light it emits.

The irony is, your statement actually described the exact method of how heat is dissipated in space, it is radiated away (since in a vacuum you can't conduct or convect it away). So really, heat is lost by glowing, just not in visible light (unless you were REALLY hot). Conversely you can't really transform heat into something else, because that energy exists and just gets moved around.

You are right that it ruins the idea of stealth... which is why in reality stealth in space is actually impossible. Anyone with infrared sensors could spot you just because you will always have some form of heat signature. It's a fun idea in sci-fi, and I won't rain on it too hard because it makes for good stories, but it is one of those things that is pretty much just in stories.

[JB0]

Are those sound boosters? Are we about to get BOMBER!?!?

That is exactly what I thought!

I tend to not worry about the level of detail you are getting into. It would help us determine some of the stuff we are discussing for sure but with that data likely not available I am content to leave it to mild speculation usually.

Personally, I enjoy speculating and working out the (il)logic behind this stuff. It may be noncanon, it may be a huge waste of time, but gosh darnit, it's FUN.

Sometimes it just leads to dead ends, though. I've never figured out an explanation for why the Enterprise doesn't have seatbelts.

[Product9]

The irony is, your statement actually described the exact method of how heat is dissipated in space, it is radiated away (since in a vacuum you can't conduct or convect it away). So really, heat is lost by glowing, just not in visible light (unless you were REALLY hot). Conversely you can't really transform heat into something else, because that energy exists and just gets moved around.

Just because we can't easily covert one form of energy into another doesn't mean they can't. I know that heat gets radiated away as infrared light, but that isn't to say that when something is hot it's just full of infrared light waiting to escape. I know you were simplifying, but that's may be going too far. I was of course referring to visible light (and other spectra). Although, converting it directly into infrared light and radiating it via a laser or some such would also work more quickly than just natural radiation.

But this also begs the question, which I'm sure you guys have readily available: how do they convert heat from their fusion process into usable energy in the first place?

Edited May 2, 2016 by Product9

[Master Dex]

Personally, I enjoy speculating and working out the (il)logic behind this stuff. It may be noncanon, it may be a huge waste of time, but gosh darnit, it's FUN.

Sometimes it just leads to dead ends, though. I've never figured out an explanation for why the Enterprise doesn't have seatbelts.

Person after my own heart. I actually heavily enjoy it too. I said that mostly because I can get really picky when I dive deep enough into it. I've also had people often enough get annoyed at me for focusing on things of this nature. I forget that there are others like me who enjoy this though. It is weird to think I've been gone from this forum for almost 6 years, I am starting to remember why I enjoyed it so much back when Frontier was new.

Just because we can't easily covert one form of energy into another doesn't mean they can't.

Kind of a fallacy to say that. Technically we convert one form of energy into others all the time. Engines convert heat energy into mechanical energy to drive vehicles. Our bodies convert stored energy in food in the form of calories into nutrients and vital resources we need to function. Plants convert light into food energy similarly. A power plant converts energy on many levels: heat from coal/oil/gas burning, nuclear energy, geothermal, etc into mechanical energy which is then converted into electrical energy. Hydro and wind power convert pure kinetic energy of water and air respectively into electrical.

The difference here though is that in all of these cases, even the ones where heat energy is transformed into other forms of energy, nothing is destroyed. Heat doesn't vanish because it helps move a turbine or run some pistons in a car. Even then there are losses because nothing is perfect, so there is always waste heat that is not dealt with. You can try to re-purpose some of it to up efficiency, but you will never get 100%. Thermodynamics is harsh like that. Yeah there is some handwavium and a lot of unobtanium going around in the world of Macross but nothing that explicitly ignores and violates existing laws of physics. At least, nothing I've seen. Even the more out there things such a fold travel are dealt with using realistic consequences it seems.

[Product9]

Sorry, I was editing my post when you made your last post. I feel like you're talking down to me, though.

Forgive me for not making a terribly long, nuanced reply from my phone.

[Product9]

Kind of a fallacy to say that. Technically we convert one form of energy into others all the time. Engines convert heat energy into mechanical energy to drive vehicles. Our bodies convert stored energy in food in the form of calories into nutrients and vital resources we need to function. Plants convert light into food energy similarly. A power plant converts energy on many levels: heat from coal/oil/gas burning, nuclear energy, geothermal, etc into mechanical energy which is then converted into electrical energy. Hydro and wind power convert pure kinetic energy of water and air respectively into electrical.

The difference here though is that in all of these cases, even the ones where heat energy is transformed into other forms of energy, nothing is destroyed. Heat doesn't vanish because it helps move a turbine or run some pistons in a car. Even then there are losses because nothing is perfect, so there is always waste heat that is not dealt with. You can try to re-purpose some of it to up efficiency, but you will never get 100%. Thermodynamics is harsh like that. Yeah there is some handwavium and a lot of unobtanium going around in the world of Macross but nothing that explicitly ignores and violates existing laws of physics. At least, nothing I've seen. Even the more out there things such a fold travel are dealt with using realistic consequences it seems.

Which is why I said easily

[Master Dex]

Oh please.. it's a discussion topic. I could ignore every statement too, but I like to think we are here to talk about stuff. I only add in a lot of details in case that helps anyone following that doesn't know that stuff already but hasn't asked. I like to share knowledge. I also like being corrected if I am wrong, or learning new things as well. I'm not trying to tell you that you are wrong or not smart, just putting all I know on the table and letting the natural flow of the topic sort out the answers from there.

I mentioned something about visible light too I think. I honestly don't know if heat could be converted to visible light for radiation instead of infrared (as opposed to both, as the really hot things do). The latter happens naturally, so I am not sure if it would be better or not. I've never really thought about it that way before. That idea of the laser is interesting though. I do remember in my research on heat dissipation for space craft that the more heat you have, the less area you need for a radiator to get rid of it. Its an inverse relationship that takes advantage of the fact that the vacuum of space is on average pretty cold of course. So the more heat you have, the quicker it will move to the lower energy state and the less area you need. Conversely, if you have low amount of heat, it takes longer to radiate away unless you have large radiators. So with a crazy enough power source, if the laser can handle all that heat energy, it might work. I can't say for sure if the material strength would hold long term though, but the limits of space metal are also a bit vague anyway.

The fusion question is a good one... and it has a lot of answers. I don't know exactly which is correct for Macross to be honest. One way I know is taking the heat created from the fusion reaction and using it to pump a working fluid, such as the fuel/propellant (air in the case of atmospheric flight) to run turbines, which in turn will run a generator to create electricity. This is surely what valkyries do, it is also what modern jets do (except with jet fuel and combustion instead of nuclear fusion of course). For bigger space ships, this can still work, but there may be ways to take advantage of some direct energy conversion using magnetic fields or stripping the charged particles from the fusion reaction of their electrons. I'm sure it is possible in Macross, but I don't know what they actually do if it has ever been covered. Seto Kaiba already taught me something new today I never knew was actually confirmed (even if only psuedo-canon), so I clearly don't know everything. I like that.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Master Dex

[Seto Kaiba]

Hey, why not convert waste heat into something else, say light? Then you can lose it by glowing, like the Valks in Frontier do for an otherwise inexplicable reason.

It would be the opposite of a stealth system, though...

Pretty sure that's just an artistic convention meant to make the Valkyries more visible against a black backdrop.

Ah, cool. I didn't know they had such details on how the engines work. Pure fusion engines like that are typically not high in thrust, but I can see how some overtech advantages might mitigate that. After all you did note it uses more fuel that it would in atmosphere, which implies it shifts gears so to speak. Thanks for the info.

Gravity induced fusion makes sense, and we know that gravity control is pretty straightforward for them at that point so it likely would be the best choice. My statement wasn't wrong to say though. That based on modern understanding, might as well be space magic, but at least it is magic we can put a name to and extrapolate the effects, lol.

Yeah, the tech manuals go into some excruciating detail on some things. Not always interesting things, mind you... Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.1 has a half-page aside on how overtechnology materials have affected the designs of threaded fasteners. That's right, it devotes ink to overtechnology bolts. Not the most riveting material, if I do say so myself.

(... and I hope you'll forgive that dreadful joke.)

When you think about it, the way the thermonuclear reaction engines are described is not altogether different from how Star Trek's impulse engines work... just without the magic, mass-canceling subspace field. Sort of a thrust-vectored hybrid of ion thruster and fusion rocket. You've got a LOT of juice to play with courtesy of the reactors, so you can brute force the thrust with the MPD arcjet by throwing hundreds (or thousands) of megawatts at the problem. (Sky Angels actually sets the 650MW/engine on the VF-1 as its typical output and 1,700MW/engine as its maximum.) Seems to consume fuel at a monstrous rate though... from the description in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.2, a VF-1 in space flight is consuming something to the tune of 1.79 liters of hydrogen per second per engine at peak output. With FAST packs, that gives them a maximum combat endurance a few seconds short of 30 minutes. Presumably that can be extended through judicious use of the rocket engines.

Just because we can't easily covert one form of energy into another doesn't mean they can't.

... well, that's actually true. We know they can convert g-forces into extradimensional energy somehow, because that's how the inertia store converter works, and heat isn't nearly as hard to redirect as acceleration forces.

[Product9]

Oh please.. it's a discussion topic. I could ignore every statement too, but I like to think we are here to talk about stuff. I only add in a lot of details in case that helps anyone following that doesn't know that stuff already but hasn't asked. I like to share knowledge. I also like being corrected if I am wrong, or learning new things as well. I'm not trying to tell you that you are wrong or not smart, just putting all I know on the table and letting the natural flow of the topic sort out the answers from there.

If no offense was meant, then I will take none. Apologies for making it an issue: I'm a bit of a soft one.

Now back on topic: The traditional method would be to use it to heat some kind of fluid and use expansion as a means to move a turbine, but the Valkyries have very little internal space to devote to such a system (especially when you consider they have to carry fuel someplace). I always assumed they had a very convenient way of converting thermal energy directly into electrical energy. I mean, if they can create and regulate gravity, then it should be easy.

Which raises another question: if they can manipulate gravity why do they still use jets? Ah who cares, I like jets.

As for the heat-into-light idea, that isn't my own. I stole it from BattleTech, and I may have somewhat misunderstood how it works. I still don't fully get it.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Laser_Heat_Sink

Much like energy, knowledge can be nether created nor destroyed, just moved around.

[Master Dex]

Yeah, the tech manuals go into some excruciating detail on some things. Not always interesting things, mind you... Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.1 has a half-page aside on how overtechnology materials have affected the designs of threaded fasteners. That's right, it devotes ink to overtechnology bolts. Not the most riveting material, if I do say so myself.

(... and I hope you'll forgive that dreadful joke.)

When you think about it, the way the thermonuclear reaction engines are described is not altogether different from how Star Trek's impulse engines work... just without the magic, mass-canceling subspace field. Sort of a thrust-vectored hybrid of ion thruster and fusion rocket. You've got a LOT of juice to play with courtesy of the reactors, so you can brute force the thrust with the MPD arcjet by throwing hundreds (or thousands) of megawatts at the problem. (Sky Angels actually sets the 650MW/engine on the VF-1 as its typical output and 1,700MW/engine as its maximum.) Seems to consume fuel at a monstrous rate though... from the description in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.2, a VF-1 in space flight is consuming something to the tune of 1.79 liters of hydrogen per second per engine at peak output. With FAST packs, that gives them a maximum combat endurance a few seconds short of 30 minutes. Presumably that can be extended through judicious use of the rocket engines.

... well, that's actually true. We know they can convert g-forces into extradimensional energy somehow, because that's how the inertia store converter works, and heat isn't nearly as hard to redirect as acceleration forces.

Hah! I like bad jokes when times well. All you needed there was some sunglasses... Miami style. (http://cow.org/csi/). I know that actually writing up information to that level is overkill.. but I will be honest, as an engineering graduate... I won't lie that I am curious about the advantage of those bolts over modern ones.... Yep.. I'm that guy.

Those numbers you cited for the VF-1 engines though... Yakk Deculture! That is some seriously amazing power! You are right, that is basically what Star Trek does without the space magic, which is really just an excuse for them to use less fuel in their case for the same gain. That fuel consumption rate though... almost equivilant to modern chemical rockets, and not far off from modern jet fighters that run slick. So I guess even with those insane numbers the VFs are still on an advantage. Just... damn, lol.

That inertia store converter is something I'd forgotten about. Gravity is the black sheep of the universal forces though since we just can't figure it out. Most sci-fi pin their future tech on the idea that we do figure it out and it becomes easy to play with like electromagnetism did. Which is as far as I'm concerned fair game as long as they are willing to deal with the consequences of that. Some fiction doesn't, Macross.. eh.. they do ok I guess. I did mention the idea earlier they could shunt heat into super dimension space though. As far as this world goes, why not?

If no offense was meant, then I will take none. Apologies for making it an issue: I'm a bit of a soft one.

Now back on topic: The traditional method would be to use it to heat some kind of fluid and use expansion as a means to move a turbine, but the Valkyries have very little internal space to devote to such a system (especially when you consider they have to carry fuel someplace). I always assumed they had a very convenient way of converting thermal energy directly into electrical energy. I mean, if they can create and regulate gravity, then it should be easy.

Which raises another question: if they can manipulate gravity why do they still use jets? Ah who cares, I like jets.

As for the heat-into-light idea, that isn't my own. I stole it from BattleTech, and I may have somewhat misunderstood how it works. I still don't fully get it.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Laser_Heat_Sink

Much like energy, knowledge can be nether created nor destroyed, just moved around.

It's cool, don't worry about it. I get in hot water a lot for being a bit too straightforward sometimes.

I just assumed since cutaways show the valk engines do have turbines then that would be the primary power source. They could for all we know be doubling up, using that and a more direct form. Hell if it is worth doing, it is worth overdoing after all, lol.

Yes, we watch this show in part because we love fighter jets that fly in space and turn into robots. We are already skating on the line of plausibility, no need to destroy it with too much logic, lol.

[eko.prasetiyo]

ahh yes. why use jets if you have gravity control. you can packed a small foldbooster but why can not packed a small gravity control.

[Product9]

I thought Impulse engines from Star Trek were nuclear pulse detonation engines.

I also thought Valkyrie engines used the reactor core to super heat a gas and shoot it out the nozzles to make thrust, which is what gives them their effectively unlimited range in an atmosphere.

I think a lot of things, but I don't have any proof of either of these things on hand.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Product9

[Master Dex]

I thought Impulse engines from Star Trek were pulse detonation engines.

I also thought Valkyrie engines used the reactor core to super heat a gas and shoot it out the nozzles to make thrust, which is what gives them their effectively unlimited range in an atmosphere.

I think a lot of things, but I don't have any proof of either of these things on hand.

Impulse Engines are augmented fusion rockets, so says the TNG technical manual anyway. The augmented part refers to their magical subspace driver coils I think. PDEs are an interesting concept.. but I am not sure you can do that with fusion... unless you count Orion drive style nuclear bomb propulsion, lol. Seek new life and new worlds indeed, heheh.

No, you are correct. The air from the atmosphere gets flash heated by combining it with the fusion reaction plasma. What we were talking about was how the engines work in space with no air around to use. Apparently, according to Seto, they just pump up the power output of the fusion reaction to get a similar thrust without the air acting as additional mass flow propellant. I always thought they just used a different propellant to replace the air until Seto told me that, it's pretty cool. It's frankly a nuts idea though in reality... but they aren't hurting for power clearly so why not if you can.

[Product9]

No, you are correct. The air from the atmosphere gets flash heated by combining it with the fusion reaction plasma. What we were talking about was how the engines work in space with no air around to use. Apparently, according to Seto, they just pump up the power output of the fusion reaction to get a similar thrust without the air acting as additional mass flow propellant. I always thought they just used a different propellant to replace the air until Seto told me that, it's pretty cool. It's frankly a nuts idea though in reality... but they aren't hurting for power clearly so why not if you can.

I was still wrong, though, because I thought they merely used the reactor core to heat the air, but that the two were still separate. That plasma from the reactor is mixed with the air (or used as a propellant) is news to me. Wouldn't that mean the flight time in atmosphere would be limited to how much reaction mass a fighter carries (as it apparently would in space, albeit to a lesser degree in atmosphere)?

Speaking of engine exhaust, does anybody else miss the really long exhaust plumes from older Macross shows? In Plus and Zero, fighters had really long cones of flame coming out of their engine nozzles, and it looked really cool. Starting with Frontier, the engine exhaust is super short. What gives?

Edited May 2, 2016 by Product9

[Seto Kaiba]

I thought Impulse engines from Star Trek were nuclear pulse detonation engines.

Early ones were ion engine-supplemented fusion rockets, though the creators of that series mentioned that the modern ones (24th century) are more like low-power warp drives using fusion plasma for power instead of the output of an annihilation reactor.

I also thought Valkyrie engines used the reactor core to super heat a gas and shoot it out the nozzles to make thrust, which is what gives them their effectively unlimited range in an atmosphere.

That's how they work in atmosphere, yes... and as plasma is a superheated gas I suppose you could say it's technically true for space as well (with a little extra help).

No, you are correct. The air from the atmosphere gets flash heated by combining it with the fusion reaction plasma. What we were talking about was how the engines work in space with no air around to use. Apparently, according to Seto, they just pump up the power output of the fusion reaction to get a similar thrust without the air acting as additional mass flow propellant. I always thought they just used a different propellant to replace the air until Seto told me that, it's pretty cool. It's frankly a nuts idea though in reality... but they aren't hurting for power clearly so why not if you can.

Oh, it's an incredibly wasteful and inefficient way to go about it... but with the engines generating that much power and them being in no danger of running out of hydrogen anytime soon, they can afford to be a bit blase about it.

The sheer inefficiency of it all actually loops back to defensive technologies... older Valkyries don't have the excess juice to run their energy conversion armor or pin-point barriers in fighter mode because the thermonuclear reaction turbine engines are wasting a LOT of energy in the form of heat (or plasma, in space) for thrust production instead of turning that into generator output. Efficiency improved considerably with the move to thermonuclear reaction burst turbines with the 4th Gen fighters and Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines in the 5th Generation, to the point that some state-of-the-art VFs have enough power that they can provide the redonkulous amounts of thrust and still power up those defensive systems to some extent. (Having four engines seems to help...)

I was still wrong, though, because I thought they merely used the reactor core to heat the air, but that the two were still separate. That plasma from the reactor is mixed with the air (or used as a propellant) is news to me. Wouldn't that mean the flight time in atmosphere would be limited to how much reaction mass a fighter carries (as it apparently would in space, albeit to a lesser degree in atmosphere)?

They're bleeding small amounts off the reaction... probably more to make room for more plasma in the reaction chamber than anything, but "effectively unlimited" is a vague term. If we were to assume an efficiency level close to NASA's projections for hydrogen-boron fusion jet engines, a VF-1 with full tanks (to the Master File's capacity) could fly around the world dozens of times before needing to refuel. I'd call that "effectively unlimited".

Edited May 2, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[JB0]

Now back on topic: The traditional method would be to use it to heat some kind of fluid and use expansion as a means to move a turbine, but the Valkyries have very little internal space to devote to such a system (especially when you consider they have to carry fuel someplace). I always assumed they had a very convenient way of converting thermal energy directly into electrical energy. I mean, if they can create and regulate gravity, then it should be easy.

We actually have the technology now to convert heat directly to electricity. We have made use of it in several space probes, particularly ones traveling far from the sun where solar power isn't viable.

Notable missions include, but are not limited to, the Viking landers, Pioneers 10 and 11, Voyagers 1 and 2, Galileo, Cassini, and New Horizons. As you can tell, they have quite a proud history.

The space probes use the a lump of radioactive material on one side of the thermocouples as a heat source, and a lot of big radiator fins on the other side to keep the outside end cool. The temperature gradient results in electrical output.

The problem we've seen with the Voyagers and Pioneers is neutron radiation from the heat source damages the thermocouples, so power output falls dramatically after a decade or two. Not a problem for a Valkyrie, for multiple reasons.

I like to believe that overtechnology has created a higher-efficiency version of the humble thermocouple, and that is a variable fighter's primary source of electrical power. But this is extremely noncanon.

As for the heat-into-light idea, that isn't my own. I stole it from BattleTech, and I may have somewhat misunderstood how it works. I still don't fully get it.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Laser_Heat_Sink

Don't worry, it isn't a failing on your part. You don't get it because the explanation is , to be blunt, complete nonsense. There are legitimately brilliant ideas which sound like the babbling of a madman to the uninitiated, but this is not one of them.

The writeup is full of the worst kind of technobabble, where they just string words together and hope no one notices the lack of a coherent idea. The basic idea presented appears to be "we heat the hot exhaust gasses up so they're EVEN HOTTER and glow visibly, which somehow results in a net cooling effect because lasers. Also quantum."

The most notably silly part is "convert infrared energy to light", because infrared is a FORM OF LIGHT. Though the idea that by converting it to visible light they can shunt it out of the machine with mirrors is funny too. Light striking a mirror generates heat, and they're talking about megawatts of light.

They should've not explained the how, just described the effect(enhanced cooling, strong visible light emission) and left the mechanism to the audience's imagination.

Edited May 2, 2016 by JB0

[Master Dex]

Well Product9 that is also a legitimate method of fusion powered propulsion (called solid core to use Nuclear Thermal Rocketry terms, where as the actual method as we've just learned is more of a plasma core). I also used to think the solid core method was more correct, though only in the absence of actual data. I'm stoked to have actual data now. You are right though, reactor fuel is the grand limitation. In atmo, they really can save a lot, that air makes a huge difference. It still has an upper limit but I suspect for most sorties they are in no danger of reaching it. In space they obviously need to be more careful.

The exhaust plume difference in the later CG valk appearances vs the older cel-animated ones is likely just an artistic choice I bet. I could go into what exhaust plumes should look like given certain fuels used (the plume would probably be mostly transparent actually) but I suspect that is less of a factor than just how it was drawn back then before computers were doing it.

JB0 with the thermocouples... I didn't want to bring that up because the real world ones are SO inefficient lol.. but yeah it is a fair point.. overtech may have made better ones. They still don't get rid of the heat, so radiation (or fold shunting, why not) is still needed. But yeah, we are already at massive heat gradients.. why not add some extra thermocouples regardless of efficiency while we're tossing that heat. Using every strategy together ups overall system efficiency after all.

[d3v]

This is Macross, so cooling is obviously done with the power of song.

Though I guess this could actually be a thing if they use thermoacoustic cooling though the heat would still have to go somewhere (and playing anything Fire Bomber would likely just add more heat to the system).

[Master Dex]

This is Macross, so cooling is obviously done with the power of song.

Though I guess this could actually be a thing if they use thermoacoustic cooling though the heat would still have to go somewhere (and playing anything Fire Bomber would likely just add more heat to the system).

Don't play with my emotions now... That almost sounds like it needs to happen. I can see it now, testing new thermoacoustic heat management system. Some idiot puts on Fire Bomber, everything explodes brilliantly and in the distance across the stars you can hear Basara shouting "BOMBAA!!!" through fold space cause he is just so happy his song could move machines to amazing explosions, lol.

I think we've just cracked the story for an M7 sequel series guys.

[Product9]

They're bleeding small amounts off the reaction... probably more to make room for more plasma in the reaction chamber than anything, but "effectively unlimited" is a vague term. If we were to assume an efficiency level close to NASA's projections for hydrogen-boron fusion jet engines, a VF-1 with full tanks (to the Master File's capacity) could fly around the world dozens of times before needing to refuel. I'd call that "effectively unlimited".

I just meant that fuel (as in, propellant) wasn't the chief limitation, as the atmosphere is being used as a propellant. So, as long as the reactor is going, the fighter could fly. Or so I figured. But, flying around the world several times should be as good as unlimited for most purposes

The space probes use the a lump of radioactive material on one side of the thermocouples as a heat source, and a lot of big radiator fins on the other side to keep the outside end cool. The temperature gradient results in electrical output.

The problem we've seen with the Voyagers and Pioneers is neutron radiation from the heat source damages the thermocouples, so power output falls dramatically after a decade or two. Not a problem for a Valkyrie, for multiple reasons.

I like to believe that overtechnology has created a higher-efficiency version of the humble thermocouple, and that is a variable fighter's primary source of electrical power. But this is extremely noncanon.

Don't worry, it isn't a failing on your part. You don't get it because the explanation is , to be blunt, complete nonsense. There are legitimately brilliant ideas which sound like the babbling of a madman to the uninitiated, but this is not one of them.

The writeup is full of the worst kind of technobabble, where they just string words together and hope no one notices the lack of a coherent idea. The basic idea presented appears to be "we heat the hot exhaust gasses up so they're EVEN HOTTER and glow visibly, which somehow results in a net cooling effect because lasers. Also quantum."

The most notably silly part is "convert infrared energy to light", because infrared is a FORM OF LIGHT. Though the idea that by converting it to visible light they can shunt it out of the machine with mirrors is funny too. Light striking a mirror generates heat, and they're talking about megawatts of light.

They should've not explained the how, just described the effect(enhanced cooling, strong visible light emission) and left the mechanism to the audience's imagination.

RTGs, right? I knew of them, but heard they were pretty inefficient and slow (not to mention dangerous). Thermocouples are great and all, but I assumed in Macross they had much more effective ways to convert heat into electricity.

And, yeah, BattleTech has some good ideas, but oftentimes pretty poor execution of those ideas. Regardless of the technobabble, I think it's an interesting concept at least.

Though, could they be talking about excitation in the same way a lasing medium is excited? Heck, I dunno. I'm not a scientician.

I do know that if you add 'Quantum' to the front of anything it makes it work regardless of all other factors, though.

The exhaust plume difference in the later CG valk appearances vs the older cel-animated ones is likely just an artistic choice I bet. I could go into what exhaust plumes should look like given certain fuels used (the plume would probably be mostly transparent actually) but I suspect that is less of a factor than just how it was drawn back then before computers were doing it.

Maybe it's a stylistic thing, but in Zero they had some pretty impressive exhaust plumes and that was CG. The SV-51 accelerating at night in episode 3 comes to mind.