Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[Nekko Basara]

Not only do the drones have a layout like the various the lifting body test vehicles and the Dream Chaser (and the unbuilt Dyna-Soar), but the SV-262 itself has a somewhat similar shape when its wings are in the folded position. And, as mentioned, we actually get to see the -262 make a lifting body-style atmospheric entry in this configuration.

[Valkyrie Driver]

NEW images of G/B-Mode of the SV-262 have been added to macross.jp's Mechanical page.

http://macross.jp/delta/mechanic/

Now that I've had a good look at the Battroid mode, the SV-262 is a sexy machine. My question, is it still a twin engine design? One also must wonder if it's lighter than the VF-31.

I really wish we could have a revisit of the VF-19A, and see how it compares to newer fighters...

[wmkjr]

Those drones remind me of the spaceship "Stardust" in Unidentified flying oddball.

[Nekko Basara]

Now that I've had a good look at the Battroid mode, the SV-262 is a sexy machine. My question, is it still a twin engine design?

The engines are still in the legs in the traditional way, so I think they must be paired. They just sit close together in fighter mode and the feet arrange themselves into what looks like a single exhaust.

[tout-puissant]

NEW images of G/B-Mode of the SV-262 have been added to macross.jp's Mechanical page.

http://macross.jp/delta/mechanic/

The new images have a caption underneath... I can only read the katakana, but it seems to indicate that the drones might be called "Lear Draken" (Ri-ru Do-ra-ke-n). "Ri-ru" can be interpreted as "Real" or "Leeloo" as well (especially if SK liked "The Fifth Element" movie), so I could be wrong. The same caption mentions the leg-mounted missle pods, which suggests that "Lear Draken" is referring to the drones.

Can anyone with a better command of kanji offer some more clues?

Mark

Edited April 28, 2016 by tout-puissant

[Zinjo]

The engines are still in the legs in the traditional way, so I think they must be paired. They just sit close together in fighter mode and the feet arrange themselves into what looks like a single exhaust.

I wonder if the Drakken have smaller leg engines which provide comparable thrust when combined in fighter mode. This would suggest a weakness in the units while flying in battroid or even GERWALK modes. If they are full sized engines, then the vector nozzling in the feet would have to be made of superior heat resistant alloy to keep them from melting at max thrust.

I guess the specs will clear this up when they eventually get released.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Zinjo

[Rbstr]

This two engine/one engine thing is just so wierd since we get a very clear show in the episode itself...Like, have some of you not watched it?

Here's a good WebM seti88 posted https://data.desustorage.org/a/image/1461/50/1461509514003.webm

Clearly two engines, just arranged close.

I wonder if the Drakken have smaller leg engines which provide comparable thrust when combined in fighter mode. This would suggest a weakness in the units while flying in battroid or even GERWALK modes. If they are full sized engines, then the vector nozzling in the feet would have to be made of superior heat resistant alloy to keep them from melting at max thrust.

I guess the specs will clear this up when they eventually get released.

Why would the feet be any different than normal (which is already some kind of advanced overtech stuff)? The engines are just side by side, they aren't compressing the exhaust so the temperature and the flow rate impinging against any given surface would be basically the same between this and a "normal" configuration.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Rbstr

[Zinjo]

This two engine/one engine thing is just so wierd since we get a very clear show in the episode itself...Like, have some of you not watched it?

Here's a good WebM seti88 posted https://data.desustorage.org/a/image/1461/50/1461509514003.webm

Clearly two engines, just arranged close.

Why would the feet be any different than normal (which is already some kind of advanced overtech stuff)? The engines are just side by side, they aren't compressing the exhaust so the temperature and the flow rate impinging against any given surface would be basically the same between this and a "normal" configuration.

I don't recall suggesting there was a single engine.

The question is, are the engines similar in size and thrust to the VF-31 or are they smaller engines which require them to be "paired" into a single focused thrust stream for maximum speed in flight.

If the engines are a similar size, you are combining a lot of heat through a single channel at maximum thrust, unlike the VF-31 which has an exhaust for each engine.

OTEC alloys are not indestructible and in order to shape the materials they have to be melted using heat... Would full sized nuclear engines focused through a single exhaust generate sufficient heat to melt the Drakken Feet?

Edited April 28, 2016 by Zinjo

[Valkyrie Driver]

This two engine/one engine thing is just so wierd since we get a very clear show in the episode itself...Like, have some of you not watched it?

Here's a good WebM seti88 posted https://data.desustorage.org/a/image/1461/50/1461509514003.webm

I must have blinked, or not registered that there were two engines. It looks like, while it has 2 engines the feet come together in such a way as it acts like a single engine and I'd venture a guess that the nozzle acts like single engine thrust vectoring. Just my guess.

[Nekko Basara]

I'm not an engineer, but I don't think the distance between paired engines significantly affects their thrust. In real aircraft, the criteria affecting how two engines are arranged are things like controllability in a one-engine scenario, ease of maintenance, and the likelihood of damage to one engine affecting the other.

I don't think heat dissipation has much to do with it, either. It's an interesting idea, but my uneducated guess why most valks have widely separated engine bays is that Kawamori was thinking about the transformation scheme and not the risk of them melting their feet off.

[guyxxed]

Agreed. Also, in that video of the transformation, it looks like the nozzle/feet have a slight opening or gap at their forward end in plane mode, so may allow cooling air to pass through along with the thrust. Rule of Cool is still the overriding factor, but there are some reasonably plausible ways to justify the arrangement as well, which is good enough for me.

[Rbstr]

If the engines are a similar size, you are combining a lot of heat through a single channel at maximum thrust, unlike the VF-31 which has an exhaust for each engine.

#1 Why wouldn't they be about the same size and performance? It's not like their VF is going to be substantially worse than the 31, it'd make little sense in the narative.

#2 Simple thermo will say that, adding two streams of one temperature together results in a stream with the same temperature (in the absense of additional work performed on the system). So if it could handle the split temperature it can handle the together temperature, since they have to be the same.

A more full descriptions is:

If you take two exhausts with a circular cross-sectional area of 1*pi unit^2, and combine them into an exhaust with a cross-sectional area of 2*pi units^2 you have not changed the mass flow rate OR the flow velocity and you have especially not changed the exhaust's initial temperature.

So the only change is that you've reduced the exhaust circumference by a bit over 25%. So you're overall exhaust surface area goes down leading to less heat lost by the exhaust on its way out (if your exhaust length remains the same). This could matter it you were piping the exhaust someplace and needed it to cool off X amount first, but here it's a very short duct and is immediately vented to the outside.

The key is that at the temperature will start at the same place it did before, even if it decreases more slowly.

And what I've described is about the worse case for the SV-262. The "real" geometry looks to scale in a more favorable way.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I'm not an engineer, but I don't think the distance between paired engines significantly affects their thrust. In real aircraft, the criteria affecting how two engines are arranged are things like controllability in a one-engine scenario, ease of maintenance, and the likelihood of damage to one engine affecting the other.

Affect thrust, no. It would affect airframe behavior, which would fall under controllability. The closer the engines are together, the less the affect of differential turning. When a two engine aircraft loses an engine in flight, the pilot has to trim the rudder to oppose the aircraft's tendency to want to turn the opposite direction (the drag on the aircraft acts like differential braking). Generally why twin engine aircraft have either 2 vertical stabs or a single very large vertical stab (bigger/more stab, bigger rudder/more surface area to stick in the wind). Redundancy is a big factor, especially in a space craft, so you're on point there. I'm just clarifying why the things you said are correct, not saying why you're wrong (you're not btw).

I don't think heat dissipation has much to do with it, either. It's an interesting idea, but my uneducated guess why most valks have widely separated engine bays is that Kawamori was thinking about the transformation scheme and not the risk of them melting their feet off.

I tend to agree about heat dissipation. I would venture a guess and say that using the fuselage as an airfoil is another reason for the wide separation in the engine nacelles, look at the tomcat, most of the lift it generates is from the fuselage and not the wings. Why wouldn't Kawamori try to accomplish the same thing?

A more full descriptions is:

If you take two exhausts with a circular cross-sectional area of 1*pi unit^2, and combine them into an exhaust with a cross-sectional area of 2*pi units^2 you have not changed the mass flow rate OR the flow velocity and you have especially not changed the exhaust's initial temperature.

So the only change is that you've reduced the exhaust circumference by a bit over 25%. So you're overall exhaust surface area goes down leading to less heat lost by the exhaust on its way out (if your exhaust length remains the same). This could matter it you were piping the exhaust someplace and needed it to cool off X amount first, but here it's a very short duct and is immediately vented to the outside.

The key is that at the temperature will start at the same place it did before, even if it decreases more slowly.

And what I've described is about the worse case for the SV-262. The "real" geometry looks to scale in a more favorable way.

But doesn't that assume a perfect conductor? The divider (unless it completely retracts) would be absorbing heat from both sides, and the material used would retain some of that heat and eventually fail if it reached its melting point. My knowledge of thermodynamics is pretty rudimentary so forgive me If I sound a bit dense.

[tout-puissant]

I thought I saw very finger-looking things in a view of it in Ep 3, will try to find it.

It's in the OP, you can see the what looks like Elysion's right hand in a sort of karate chop pose with the not-Aether ship partially covering it. Not sure if that's deliberate or not, you can't see any fingers in a similar shot of the Aether departing, in this week's episode.

Mark

[Zinjo]

#1 Why wouldn't they be about the same size and performance? It's not like their VF is going to be substantially worse than the 31, it'd make little sense in the narrative.

Because I am NOT assuming the engines are from the same source or design.

We had this in MF, but we don't know the source or the Windemerian design or manufacture for their fighters. Their engines could be better or worse than the ones aboard the VF-31's.

My point has been they could just as easily be smaller to accommodate the transformation or the same size as the Siegfried power plants, but at this point we don't know.

[IXTL]

The new images have a caption underneath... I can only read the katakana, but it seems to indicate that the drones might be called "Lear Draken" (Ri-ru Do-ra-ke-n). "Ri-ru" can be interpreted as "Real" or "Leeloo" as well (especially if SK liked "The Fifth Element" movie), so I could be wrong. The same caption mentions the leg-mounted missle pods, which suggests that "Lear Draken" is referring to the drones.

Can anyone with a better command of kanji offer some more clues?

Mark

Lil Draken. Named after the this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_210

[Rbstr]

Because I am NOT assuming the engines are from the same source or design.

We had this in MF, but we don't know the source or the Windemerian design or manufacture for their fighters. Their engines could be better or worse than the ones aboard the VF-31's.

My point has been they could just as easily be smaller to accommodate the transformation or the same size as the Siegfried power plants, but at this point we don't know.

Sure they could be different...but the narrative requirements (and footage shown already) mean the SV-262 is going to be at least in the same ballpark as the 31. Given that's it's got two engines they're probably going to be similar. So it's unlikely that something that looks and quacks and flies like a duck isn't at least pretty dang similar to a duck.

But mostly I just object to your exhaust nozzle melting statement. It doesn't make sense physically at all. If you can deal with two engines with separate nozzles you can deal with two engines exhausting into the same nozzle without much trouble. It's just not that different (and anyway, if you can make the engine you must have the technology to stand up to its operating temperatures to begin with).

Edited April 28, 2016 by Rbstr

[d3v]

The Dream Chaser is actually made by Sierra Nevada Space Systems, not Boeing. But yes, the Sv-262 drones do resemble it.

Yeah, my bad, I mixed that up with Boeing's own space taxi thing. Edited April 29, 2016 by d3v

[JB0]

But doesn't that assume a perfect conductor? The divider (unless it completely retracts) would be absorbing heat from both sides, and the material used would retain some of that heat and eventually fail if it reached its melting point. My knowledge of thermodynamics is pretty rudimentary so forgive me If I sound a bit dense.

That's a bit of an interesting question, with a partially counterintuitive answer.

Lacking a way to cool itself, it will rapidly reach equilibrium with the exhaust stream. Two streams of a given temperature will not combine to heat a plate to twice that temperature, so it won't get any hotter than the one engine case, but it can't shed heat to the atmosphere as it could if one side faced open air.

Note, though, that I said that applies if the component is exposed to atmosphere, and variable fighters are not limited to atmospheric flight. Here's where things get counterintuitive for a bit, and where we find our concrete answer.

In space, the circumstance is very different, and not in the way most people expect. Common sense says space is very cold, so cooling the duct should be easy. But it is only cold because there's so little matter in space. There's no air to conduct heat away and radiation is a much slower process, so vacuum works as an excellent insulator. Which means hot things tend to stay hotter than they would in atmosphere and the cold of space is a darn dirty lie. (This is a gross oversimplification of the problem, but for our purposes it is close enough.)

Even if it isn't fully immersed in the exhaust stream, ALL parts of the nozzle will rapidly achieve something very close to equilibrium with that exhaust stream if there's not a cooling system attached. Which means the rest of the exhaust nozzle is in, practically, the same boat as the divider.

Consequently, it stands to reason that if the divider can't withstand the exhaust temperatures for a sustained time, neither can the rest of the exhaust nozzle, and there MUST be a cooling system of some sort. The fact that VFs are aerospace fighters means the divider is not in any sort of special circumstance relative to the rest of the nozzle.

As to whether the nozzle can withstand those temperatures, or if it needs a cooling system, I cannot say. I can just say that the entire nozzle is in the same boat as the divider during spaceflight, therefore the divider must be able to handle being fully immersed in the thrust stream SOMEHOW, because it is not meaningfully different from being only partially immersed.

[Kelsain]

Lil Draken. Named after the this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_210

Every time I see Lil Draken, I think of this guy:

[tout-puissant]

Lil Draken. Named after the this:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_210

Hah! Whaddya know. SK being playful.

Mark

[guyxxed]

On a different note, take a look at the screenshot below from the first episode. On the VF-1, the intakes essentially became the hips when in battroid mode and swiveled along with the legs. On the VF-31, it appears that the intakes stay mostly stationary and that the hip joint stays in the accordion section used in gerwalk mode. There's some logic to that, I suppose, but it looks a little odd and requires some rather magical bendiness of that joint. I don't recall the VF-25s from Frontier being like this (I haven't looked, but I believe the intakes were the hips on that model), have other Valkyrie's had this type of hip arrangement or is this new on the 31's?

[Valkyrie Driver]

That's a bit of an interesting question, with a partially counterintuitive answer.

Lacking a way to cool itself, it will rapidly reach equilibrium with the exhaust stream. Two streams of a given temperature will not combine to heat a plate to twice that temperature, so it won't get any hotter than the one engine case, but it can't shed heat to the atmosphere as it could if one side faced open air.

Note, though, that I said that applies if the component is exposed to atmosphere, and variable fighters are not limited to atmospheric flight. Here's where things get counterintuitive for a bit, and where we find our concrete answer.

In space, the circumstance is very different, and not in the way most people expect. Common sense says space is very cold, so cooling the duct should be easy. But it is only cold because there's so little matter in space. There's no air to conduct heat away and radiation is a much slower process, so vacuum works as an excellent insulator. Which means hot things tend to stay hotter than they would in atmosphere and the cold of space is a darn dirty lie. (This is a gross oversimplification of the problem, but for our purposes it is close enough.)

Even if it isn't fully immersed in the exhaust stream, ALL parts of the nozzle will rapidly achieve something very close to equilibrium with that exhaust stream if there's not a cooling system attached. Which means the rest of the exhaust nozzle is in, practically, the same boat as the divider.

Consequently, it stands to reason that if the divider can't withstand the exhaust temperatures for a sustained time, neither can the rest of the exhaust nozzle, and there MUST be a cooling system of some sort. The fact that VFs are aerospace fighters means the divider is not in any sort of special circumstance relative to the rest of the nozzle.

As to whether the nozzle can withstand those temperatures, or if it needs a cooling system, I cannot say. I can just say that the entire nozzle is in the same boat as the divider during spaceflight, therefore the divider must be able to handle being fully immersed in the thrust stream SOMEHOW, because it is not meaningfully different from being only partially immersed.

That was really helpful JB0, thanks!

So essentially there would need to be some sort of cooling mechanism in place, either liquid transfer or a heat sink of some kind?

[Zinjo]

That's a bit of an interesting question, with a partially counterintuitive answer.

Lacking a way to cool itself, it will rapidly reach equilibrium with the exhaust stream. Two streams of a given temperature will not combine to heat a plate to twice that temperature, so it won't get any hotter than the one engine case, but it can't shed heat to the atmosphere as it could if one side faced open air.

Note, though, that I said that applies if the component is exposed to atmosphere, and variable fighters are not limited to atmospheric flight. Here's where things get counterintuitive for a bit, and where we find our concrete answer.

In space, the circumstance is very different, and not in the way most people expect. Common sense says space is very cold, so cooling the duct should be easy. But it is only cold because there's so little matter in space. There's no air to conduct heat away and radiation is a much slower process, so vacuum works as an excellent insulator. Which means hot things tend to stay hotter than they would in atmosphere and the cold of space is a darn dirty lie. (This is a gross oversimplification of the problem, but for our purposes it is close enough.)

Even if it isn't fully immersed in the exhaust stream, ALL parts of the nozzle will rapidly achieve something very close to equilibrium with that exhaust stream if there's not a cooling system attached. Which means the rest of the exhaust nozzle is in, practically, the same boat as the divider.

Consequently, it stands to reason that if the divider can't withstand the exhaust temperatures for a sustained time, neither can the rest of the exhaust nozzle, and there MUST be a cooling system of some sort. The fact that VFs are aerospace fighters means the divider is not in any sort of special circumstance relative to the rest of the nozzle.

As to whether the nozzle can withstand those temperatures, or if it needs a cooling system, I cannot say. I can just say that the entire nozzle is in the same boat as the divider during spaceflight, therefore the divider must be able to handle being fully immersed in the thrust stream SOMEHOW, because it is not meaningfully different from being only partially immersed.

It scares and simultaneously pleases me, that I understood that complex explanation...

[d3v]

Since there's no aerodynamic drag in space to overcome, doesn't that mean that the engines wont have to continously keep outputting thrust just to maintain speed? That could help with the cooling in space.

Edited April 30, 2016 by d3v

[Master Dex]

Since there's no aerodynamic drag in space to overcome, doesn't that mean that the engines wont have to continously keep outputting thrust just to maintain speed? That could help with the cooling in space.

Well for a fighter craft a continual acceleration is still useful, but even if the engines are not thrusting the reactors are still running to generate power. Any real spaceship would have tons of waste heat to dump and Macross presumably has some form of overtechnology method of doing this that doesn't require flimsy and easily targeted radiators as needed today. Ironically waste heat can actually be dumped from a rocket engine by the exhaust so really, it might actually help the cooling process to keep thrusting, lol.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well for a fighter craft a continual acceleration is still useful, but even if the engines are not thrusting the reactors are still running to generate power. Any real spaceship would have tons of waste heat to dump and Macross presumably has some form of overtechnology method of doing this that doesn't require flimsy and easily targeted radiators as needed today. Ironically waste heat can actually be dumped from a rocket engine by the exhaust so really, it might actually help the cooling process to keep thrusting, lol.

Potentially relevant... there are several specific mentions of heat sinks in connection with more recent Valkyrie designs (mostly the VF-25) in various sources, such as the VF-25 using its wings as heat sinks to rapidly dissipate heat after combat and the four armored heat sinks on the APS-25 Armored Pack. I'd assume that a starship would probably be converting more of that reaction heat into generator output, but on a VF it would appear that they do need some external heat exchange process besides the exhaust stream.

[Master Dex]

Heat sinks are a stop gap method of quick heat dissipation.. ultimately they will need to radiate the heat away.. but ideally this is done after the combat is over.

Good point that overtech seems to like to recycle waste heat for more power use.. but thermodynamically speaking the heat won't go away and eventually will need to be dealt with somehow. Either sinks, or some advanced version of heat radiation does it I'm sure (maybe they can shunt heat into super dimension space for all we know).

[sketchley]

Potentially relevant... there are several specific mentions of heat sinks in connection with more recent Valkyrie designs (mostly the VF-25) in various sources, such as the VF-25 using its wings as heat sinks to rapidly dissipate heat after combat and the four armored heat sinks on the APS-25 Armored Pack. I'd assume that a starship would probably be converting more of that reaction heat into generator output, but on a VF it would appear that they do need some external heat exchange process besides the exhaust stream.

If memory serves, that started when the introduced the Stage II Thermonuclear Turbine Engines. More specifically (for those that don't), engines that provide enough output to concurrently provide enough thrust and power the on-board systems (energy weapons, PPB, Energy Conversion Armour).

It makes sense, with the preceding line of reasoning, that although some of the excess heat is dumped via the exhaust from the nozzles, that the remainder would require additional heat sinks.

[JB0]

That was really helpful JB0, thanks!

So essentially there would need to be some sort of cooling mechanism in place, either liquid transfer or a heat sink of some kind?

Bingo.

Note, though, that liquid transfer doesn't actually solve the problem. It just moves the heat around, typically to a location where it is easier to deal with (like from the engine block of a car to the radiator). Ultimately, you need a device to get the heat out.

Keeping spacecraft(both manned and unmanned) at safe temperatures in the real world is a complex problem.

Variable fighters have the advantage of seeing short deployments with a visit to a climate-controlled environment between outings. They have to control temperatures for hours at a time instead of days or months or years, and then they can cool off in a room full of glorious heat-conducting air.

They also have the advantage of being built around a thermonuclear reactor(which is a really good heater) so they never never really have to worry about being too cold.

[Nazareno2012]

Regarding heat dissipation I assume VF's have built-in radiators in the wings for that. As for the ships, while some apparently have radiators (such as the Uraga class CV and Sunnyflower agricultural ship), the others without radiators most likely vent heat to super dimensional space.

[eko.prasetiyo]

Regarding heat dissipation I assume VF's have built-in radiators in the wings for that. As for the ships, while some apparently have radiators (such as the Uraga class CV and Sunnyflower agricultural ship), the others without radiators most likely vent heat to super dimensional space.

I thought they "store" the heat somewhere and use it for charging the weapon

[Master Dex]

I thought they "store" the heat somewhere and use it for charging the weapon

As mentioned, heat doesn't really work like that. Heat can be re-purposed for added power, but it doesn't actually get rid of the heat (it could even make more). Heat in space has to be eventually removed or the spacecraft will turn into an oven and all the squishies inside will have a really bad time.

[Nekko Basara]

As mentioned, heat doesn't really work like that. Heat can be re-purposed for added power, but it doesn't actually get rid of the heat (it could even make more). Heat in space has to be eventually removed or the spacecraft will turn into an oven and all the squishies inside will have a really bad time.

Now I'm imagining every valkyrie having a bread oven fitted behind the cockpit, and the pilot is expected to spend any spare time producing batch after batch of fresh rolls and baguettes. Then he tosses them into space, I guess...

[grigolosi]

In an atmosphere you do not want hot, pre-warmed air entering the turbine. You want cold air, the denser the air the more efficient the turbine works. As stated before the heat dissipation in space for a VF is one of the mysteries that has been brought up before on here and at this point all we can do is come up with theories. But in an atmosphere turbine engines use bypass air around the combuster, turbine and augmentor sections to draw heat away. The augmentor liners are usually made of highly heat resistant metal (Titanium presently) that is coated in ceramics and perforated to enhance cooling. Presently the newest engines produce around 2900 degrees F in the turbine inlet temp (the GE 132) we have run into issues here where I am at during the summer with the inlet temps being so high they are causing micro fractures around the aeration holes on the turbines so what ever materials they are using for the VF engines are seriously heat resistant. Also there is space within the aircraft between the engine and airframe that allows for heat dissipation. You also have to add in heat generated by the avionics, radar and ECS. In an atmosphere it is easy to dump heat but like stated before the mystery of heat disspation in the vacuum of space still remains with the VF designs.