Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[VF-9 Cirno]

I was pulling the VF-1X info from Mac7 as MIlia's unit was, to my knowledge, not a VF-1X+ version. Just a VF-1X, no 'plus' symbol attached. I didn't even know there was a Master File for a VF-1X+. Although I did ignore Gamlin's ranting as the guy is pretty much 105% spoiled due to flying VF-17s and the other top tier (of that time period) VFs.

I'll have to go back and check out the VF-0/VF-1X++ again in the two data books, as you might be right on that.

As for the simulator > 2-crew trainer > 1-crew trainer > combat rated craft, yeah, I know how that works. Just that it was extremely condensed in Frontier, where Alto gets put in a sim-pod, got rekt (heh), and then immediately jumped into a VF-25. I'd have expected if there'd been any training that we'd have seen in in the backseat of a tandem cockpit VF-25 prior to him getting his own craft. Yeah he can -fly- is a given. But whether or not he could handle going from whatever civilian/less-than-paramilitary designs the school trained them on, and then handle all that's required on a cutting-edge military craft in a single go? Stretching my sense of disbelief a little. After all, Macross isn't normally Gundam where anyone jumps straight into a cockpit. Even Hikaru was shown having a training montage, although to be fair, it was more showing him going through infantry training, and he was a pilot nearly up there with Roy Fokker right from the very beginning.

(As an aside on that last sentence: considering that VFs are meant to occasionally act as giant scale infantry, its probably not a bad idea at all to push that part of training harder than most pilot trainees likely would see. Yes I'm fully aware that boot camp is boot camp and any/all MOS still have the exact same initial training. I more mean that -after- the initial training, it might be good for VF pilots to have that stressed to them just a bit more than any other MOS that isn't infantry.)

Which again, is why I'm glad to see Kawamori -stretch- out the training for Hayate a bit, so we get to see him screw up royally at first due to his ego, only to get better, and THEN inevitably get his own ride and start showing off his natural talents. But not before going through an actual training montage. Knowing how anime likes to pull ideas from previous episodes and use a 'mastered' version near the end of a series, I fully expect that something Hayate badly messes up on while in the VF-1, is going to show up later on while he's in the VF-31. If nothing else, it'd provide a glimpse into the differences as to what the true airframe limits a VF-1 can do, compared to what a VF-31 can do.

Edited April 15, 2016 by VF-9 Cirno

[Seto Kaiba]

I was pulling the VF-1X info from Mac7 as MIlia's unit was, to my knowledge, not a VF-1X+ version. Just a VF-1X, no 'plus' symbol attached. I didn't even know there was a Master File for a VF-1X+.

Ah, no... that wasn't a VF-1X of any stripe in Macross 7. That was Milia's old VF-1J from the First Space War (though likely equipped with modern ammo).

EDIT: It's worth noting there are a few animation errors in 7 where, in GERWALK or Fighter mode, they accidentally draw it with a VF-1A head, but Macross Chronicle confirms it is indeed meant to be a VF-1J.

WRT Master File, the VF-1X Valkyrie is described in the 2nd VF-1 volume (Space Wing) as an improvement from the 2020's, though it's a different model of craft from the VF-1X Plus (sometimes written VF-1X+) which is a later and more comprehensive improvement.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Nekko Basara]

Because this is still bugging the crap out of me, I MS-Painted a comparison.
What the heck is going on with the arm cannon here?

[Seto Kaiba]

Because this is still bugging the crap out of me, I MS-Painted a comparison.

What the heck is going on with the arm cannon here?

vf-31e arm cannon.jpg

It looks like it might be on a rail, which might mean it's got a flexible belt feed from wherever the ammo is stored. I'm gonna go look at the animation of the guns in GERWALK mode... because you're absolutely right that something looks awry.

EDIT: On Arad's VF-31S, it looks like the gun is farther down the arm in battroid mode than that art shows...

Edited April 15, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[d3v]

It looks like it might be on a rail, which might mean it's got a flexible belt feed from wherever the ammo is stored. I'm gonna go look at the animation of the guns in GERWALK mode... because you're absolutely right that something looks awry.

EDIT: On Arad's VF-31S, it looks like the gun is farther down the arm in battroid mode than that art shows...

Last I checked, the guns were still connecter in gerwalk mode in the show.

[VF-9 Cirno]

Ah, no... that wasn't a VF-1X of any stripe in Macross 7. That was Milia's old VF-1J from the First Space War (though likely equipped with modern ammo).

EDIT: It's worth noting there are a few animation errors in 7 where, in GERWALK or Fighter mode, they accidentally draw it with a VF-1A head, but Macross Chronicle confirms it is indeed meant to be a VF-1J.

WRT Master File, the VF-1X Valkyrie is described in the 2nd VF-1 volume (Space Wing) as an improvement from the 2020's, though it's a different model of craft from the VF-1X Plus (sometimes written VF-1X+) which is a later and more comprehensive improvement.

I know its Milia's original. AFAIK it was fully upgraded to the VF-1X standard after the war as a 'courtesy' to her.

Edited April 15, 2016 by VF-9 Cirno

[Graham]

Because this is still bugging the crap out of me, I MS-Painted a comparison.

What the heck is going on with the arm cannon here?

vf-31e arm cannon.jpg

I think it's likely just an error by whomever did those pics.

[Seto Kaiba]

I know its Milia's original. AFAIK it was fully upgraded to the VF-1X standard after the war as a 'courtesy' to her.

Can't say I've ever seen/read anything to that effect... and I'm fairly certain that's not the case because:

• The VF-1X Plus Valkyrie didn't exist at the time Macross 7 was animated. It was "created" later, for the Macross Digital Mission VF-X game.
• Milia's VF-1 in Macross 7 still had the early-type cockpit (up to Block 5), the VF-1X has the upgraded cockpit from Block 6+.
• The VF-1X has the A-style monitor turret, Milia's VF-1 has a J-style monitor turret.
• Macross Chronicle identifies it as "VF-1J (Milia's craft)" on the Episode Sheets for Macross 7.

[tout-puissant]

Regarding Alto, his school had a VF-1 perched as a gate guard, so who knows - maybe he simmed in various publicly-available craft, including civilian versions of older fighters (which for all we know could go all the way up to the VF-19P). The Ex-Gear would take care of the rest - and the notion that he was skilled in the Gear in the first place suggests that the Ex-Gear was meant to instill commonality in variable fighter control. Yes, still a stretch, but not an inconceivable one by anime standards.

And now we have Hayate, who can jump into a VF-171 and dance around the notion (pun intended) that just anyone can fly a military craft. OTOH, by 2067 the variants of the VF-17 family will have been around for over 30 years, more than almost any of our characters will have been alive in Delta OR Frontier. It may be that the VF-171 is such a baseline fighter that anyone can go to the arcade, or download a game to your phone with a realistic depiction of how the systems work. In Hayate's case, his workroid training and natural skill would fill in the rest, at least for the -171 as a battroid. The minute he switched the thing over to fighter (and somehow kept the arm from folding in and crushing Freyja) he was almost certainly at his limit.

Mark

[David Hingtgen]

I see the VF-19 as like the Harrier----inherently hard to handle, with few people qualified to fly it. Even after decades in service, it will remain an "expert-only" plane.

They can both do amazing things in skilled hands, but also frankly/sadly, kill a fair number of their pilots.

[Mr March]

The official trivia for the VF-19 Excalibur states it's engines and airframe were reworked specifically so that the average pilots could control the craft and exceed the performance of the YF-19 prototype (http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/vf-19f.htm).

[David Hingtgen]

I accept that for the later variants, but not the 19A etc.

[sketchley]

I accept that for the later variants, but not the 19A etc.

If memory serves, the 19A thru E are pretty close to the YF-19. The 19F and onwards were reworked. However, the craft that was truly made pilot friendly was the 19EF (from MtR).

[d3v]

Regarding Alto, his school had a VF-1 perched as a gate guard, so who knows - maybe he simmed in various publicly-available craft, including civilian versions of older fighters (which for all we know could go all the way up to the VF-19P). The Ex-Gear would take care of the rest - and the notion that he was skilled in the Gear in the first place suggests that the Ex-Gear was meant to instill commonality in variable fighter control. Yes, still a stretch, but not an inconceivable one by anime standards.

And now we have Hayate, who can jump into a VF-171 and dance around the notion (pun intended) that just anyone can fly a military craft. OTOH, by 2067 the variants of the VF-17 family will have been around for over 30 years, more than almost any of our characters will have been alive in Delta OR Frontier. It may be that the VF-171 is such a baseline fighter that anyone can go to the arcade, or download a game to your phone with a realistic depiction of how the systems work. In Hayate's case, his workroid training and natural skill would fill in the rest, at least for the -171 as a battroid. The minute he switched the thing over to fighter (and somehow kept the arm from folding in and crushing Freyja) he was almost certainly at his limit.

Mark

Battroid/workroid controls are probably like a car where they're standardised enough that it's easy to go between different models. Honestly, the concept makes sense in a setting that likely see's heavy workroid use.

As for the arm holding Freyja, I wonder if there isn't a setting for that, or if the systems are smart enough to recognize when something or someone is being held.

[Graham]

I would imagine by now given the amount of times that a VF has had to rescue standard size humans the operating system has been programmed to recognise when the VF is holding a human in its manipulator and adapt accordingly.

[Nekko Basara]

I'll go one better and say that, given the number of times it has happened, VF manipulators are probably hard-coded to recognize when they are holding idol singers and to trigger the appropriate subroutines.

[d3v]

It probably goes beyond people and simply recognizes when its holding something that isn't a standard gunpod. There's probably some mil-spec standard for weapons and what have you to identify themselves so that the system can check if what it's holding is a mountable pod, or if it's even compatible with the plane.

That said, there's one advantage that the VF-31 has by not carrying a gun pod in Delta Squardon's line of work - less chances of dropping one and crushing civilians.

EDIT: Watching that scene from episode 1 again, it seems that there's actually some inconsistency in the shot. Hayate transforms into GERWALK mode after he jumps into the air, and even when he flies off, he's still in that mode. It's only after the camera cuts away to Freyja (and back to Hayate) that he's now in Fighter mode.

Makes me wonder if this is a mistake, or if it's just hand waved that the transformation happened off camera.

Edited April 16, 2016 by d3v

[Seto Kaiba]

Regarding Alto, his school had a VF-1 perched as a gate guard, so who knows - maybe he simmed in various publicly-available craft, including civilian versions of older fighters (which for all we know could go all the way up to the VF-19P).

The Macross Frontier series itself glosses over the details of Mihoshi Academy's pilot training program, but the novelization of same indicates that the academy's pilots do conduct practical training using civilian market model VF-1 Valkyries. By that point, the VF-1's price through military disposal sales or direct sale to civilians had long since come down to the point where a civilian without a major corporate sponsor could potentially afford one.

Considering that Shinsei's VF-19 was so expensive that even the military balked at the prospect of buying them in numbers, I doubt that even a wealthy vocational school could afford to train students with something like that. In 2058, private citizens were only just getting the opportunity to buy the VF-11 through military disposal sales (as Chelsea Scarlett did at the end of Macross the Ride, but she had to buy three to get enough parts to build one working VF-11).

The Ex-Gear would take care of the rest - and the notion that he was skilled in the Gear in the first place suggests that the Ex-Gear was meant to instill commonality in variable fighter control. Yes, still a stretch, but not an inconceivable one by anime standards.

There was already a good deal of commonality thanks to the standardization of controls starting with the VF-4 and back-ported into the VF-1 via the Block 6 and later upgrades. EX-Gear was meant to improve the intuitive-ness and ease of variable fighter controls via a learning computer, electromyographic sensors, and force-feedback to produce the feel of "wearing" a variable fighter.

And now we have Hayate, who can jump into a VF-171 and dance around the notion (pun intended) that just anyone can fly a military craft. OTOH, by 2067 the variants of the VF-17 family will have been around for over 30 years, more than almost any of our characters will have been alive in Delta OR Frontier. It may be that the VF-171 is such a baseline fighter that anyone can go to the arcade, or download a game to your phone with a realistic depiction of how the systems work.

More than that, the basic controls for Valkyries and other mecha has been semi-standardized for over half a century by 2067, so an operator with experience on something as simple as a Workroid or civilian-market Valkyrie could potentially apply that experience to operating something much newer without making a complete arse of themselves.

I see the VF-19 as like the Harrier----inherently hard to handle, with few people qualified to fly it. Even after decades in service, it will remain an "expert-only" plane.

They can both do amazing things in skilled hands, but also frankly/sadly, kill a fair number of their pilots.

A view pretty much explicitly confirmed in official sources... the difficult handling of the VF-19 was one of the chief factors in it being passed over for adoption as next main fighter. Too many smash-ups and losses of control in training. (Not helped by the price tag and tightened restrictions on arms exports to the emigrant fleets...) Almost twenty years later they're STILL tweaking the design in the hopes of making it something average pilots can handle.

[d3v]

So the VF-19 is basically the Porsche 911 of Valkyries/variable fighters, where the unusual configuration (forward swept wing vs the Porsche's rear engine) leads to it having tricky handling and a reputation as something of a widowmaker?

Does that then make the FSW variants of the VF-31 the equivalent of later 911s (996, 997, 991) that have largely overcome the tricky handling factor?

[ManhattanProject972]

So the VF-19 is basically the Porsche 911 of Valkyries/variable fighters, where the unusual configuration (forward swept wing vs the Porsche's rear engine) leads to it having tricky handling and a reputation as something of a widowmaker?

Does that then make the FSW variants of the VF-31 the equivalent of later 911s (996, 997, 991) that have largely overcome the tricky handling factor?

I totally get what you're saying but I feel 911's understeer too much to be compared to the responsiveness and super agility at higher speeds that the forward swept wing offers. I'd say the forward swept wing VF-19's are more akin to early Dodge Vipers and the FSW 31's the new Viper ACR. But are Vipers more twitchy than 911's I have no Idea so forget everything I just said

I cant think of a car off the top of my head, besides the 911 family and the Vipers, that is a widowmaker because its too responsive and twitchy and later models becoming easier to drive while not losing those characteristics. The Skyline GTR family perhaps? Your Porsche analogy is still the most fitting.

[Seto Kaiba]

So the VF-19 is basically the Porsche 911 of Valkyries/variable fighters, where the unusual configuration (forward swept wing vs the Porsche's rear engine) leads to it having tricky handling and a reputation as something of a widowmaker?

Does that then make the FSW variants of the VF-31 the equivalent of later 911s (996, 997, 991) that have largely overcome the tricky handling factor?

Sort of... well, I suppose you could say that's true of both Shinsei's VF-19 and General Galaxy's VF-22. They were their respective companies' unstable superstar designs that combined a bank-breaking price tag with skittish, overly-sensitive handling and monumental acceleration. (My brain keeps trying to go to Maserati or Viper in comparison to performance auto, but that's my day job talking...)

I'm not sure there's a good comparison for the VF-31's FSW versions, since those (and, really, all 5th Generation Valkyries) are preserving that extremely agile, sensitive handling and merely cheating their way out of the consequences with inertial compensation.

[VF-9 Cirno]

Can't say I've ever seen/read anything to that effect... and I'm fairly certain that's not the case because:

• The VF-1X Plus Valkyrie didn't exist at the time Macross 7 was animated. It was "created" later, for the Macross Digital Mission VF-X game.
• Milia's VF-1 in Macross 7 still had the early-type cockpit (up to Block 5), the VF-1X has the upgraded cockpit from Block 6+.
• The VF-1X has the A-style monitor turret, Milia's VF-1 has a J-style monitor turret.
• Macross Chronicle identifies it as "VF-1J (Milia's craft)" on the Episode Sheets for Macross 7.

*Headscratch*

Its not that I don't believe you, its just that I swear I heard that info from somewhere in here (MacrossWorld) previously. I never officially joined for the longest time, but I have been a silent watcher for a few years now. If -any- group has the correct info, considering you guys either pull from the Compendium, Sketchley's or macross mecha manual, or actually contribute to those three sites, its you guys. I just wish I remembered exactly where & when.

*Headscratch*

[d3v]

I totally get what you're saying but I feel 911's understeer too much to be compared to the responsiveness and super agility at higher speeds that the forward swept wing offers. I'd say the forward swept wing VF-19's are more akin to early Dodge Vipers and the FSW 31's the new Viper ACR. But are Vipers more twitchy than 911's I have no Idea so forget everything I just said

I cant think of a car off the top of my head, besides the 911 family and the Vipers, that is a widowmaker because its too responsive and twitchy and later models becoming easier to drive while not losing those characteristics. The Skyline GTR family perhaps? Your Porsche analogy is still the most fitting.

Yeah, but what I mean is that 911's are known for good handling, however since the rear engine acts like a pendulum, controlling one that goes into oversteer isn't for the faint of heart (and potentially fatal), especially with some of the lighter specialist models like the old 2.7 RS and the original "widowmaker", the 930 Turbo.

As for Skylines and GT-R's they're too controlled to be considered widowmakers.

Sort of... well, I suppose you could say that's true of both Shinsei's VF-19 and General Galaxy's VF-22. They were their respective companies' unstable superstar designs that combined a bank-breaking price tag with skittish, overly-sensitive handling and monumental acceleration. (My brain keeps trying to go to Maserati or Viper in comparison to performance auto, but that's my day job talking...)

I'm not sure there's a good comparison for the VF-31's FSW versions, since those (and, really, all 5th Generation Valkyries) are preserving that extremely agile, sensitive handling and merely cheating their way out of the consequences with inertial compensation.

But isn't that what modern 911's do with all the computerized driving aids and what not? Edited April 16, 2016 by d3v

[Seto Kaiba]

But isn't that what modern 911's do with all the computerized driving aids and what not?

The 991? I'm not sure you could say they're cheating their way out of the consequences... from the initial 911, they redesigned the vehicle several times and made modifications to the torque path calibrations in an effort to minimize the problem. In that sense, you could say it's more like what Shinsei Industry did when they put out the 2nd mass production type VF-19 with the redesigned airframe and reworked the control software to improve handling stability.

The VF-31 is kind of like the 991 in the sense that, by the time it came out the problem had essentially been licked and further developments were focused on improving the agility and performance of the larger, more stable design instead.

(Again, Porsche's not my forte... feel like I'm flailing around a bit with this comparison.)

Edited April 16, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[d3v]

My knowledge of Porsche's is probably about the same as yours, where we're all just using common car guy knowledge about the 911.

Anyway, back to the FSW Valks, I always found it interesting how most of them have canards that are angled. The VF-31 is probably the one with the most conventional looking canards, and even they are still at a small angle.

[David Hingtgen]

Anyway, back to the FSW Valks, I always found it interesting how most of them have canards that are angled. The VF-31 is probably the one with the most conventional looking canards, and even they are still at a small angle.

Angled as in when viewed from the front? (dihedral) I did some reading and eventually came back to the first guess I had:

How how or low the tip of the canard is, alters where they vortices the produce go---the primary goal of a canard (in a fighter) is usually to reinforce the wing's vortex (especially at high alpha). But if it doesn't intersect it in just the right spot, it'll either "miss" and have no effect, or can "hit at the wrong spot" and interfere/weaken it.

In car terms----the canards act like a supercharger to the wing. But you have to get everything just right to actually make a noticeable improvement, otherwise you've just added weight and complexity for little/no gain.

*due to the size/location of the -19's canards, I believe they'd have little to no effect on the wings---they would be primarily be used for pitch control. And are angled mainly just to look cool.

[Nekko Basara]

Similar to anhedral/dihedral on the wings, it would also affect lateral stability, wouldn't it? Although I agree that in valks it's probably mainly an aesthetic choice.

Incidentally, it looks to me as though the VF-31's canards (unlike the smaller ones on the YF-30) are hinged for transformation, so the user may have some choice about their anhedral/dihedral.

[d3v]

In car terms----the canards act like a supercharger to the wing. But you have to get everything just right to actually make a noticeable improvement, otherwise you've just added weight and complexity for little/no gain.

Aerodynamics is aerodynamics in planes or cars. Vortex generators in race cars basically do the same thing to a their wings by guiding the air to and away from certain places to increase downforce.

Now back to the planes, I'm pretty sure Kawamori's main reason is simply because they looked cool (I mean, he's not an aerodynamicist as far as we know), thought the ones on the YF/VF-19 always looked somewhat stubby to me. The ones on the VF-31 look much more practical, at least at a glance.

[David Hingtgen]

Canards can do very different things---some are primarily for pitch control, some are mainly for lift, some are mainly for vortex generation. They're not like a tailplane or aileron, which always have a very defined purpose. A canard "is what you make of it".

As for lateral stability--not much AFAIK. Usually too small an area. Of course there's SOME effect, but it's not going to be a primary consideration. Tailplane dihedral is a much larger effect/consideration, when it comes to roll.

[Moosey]

According to RedWolf in the Episode 3 thread, the VF-1 in Episode 3 of Delta is referred to as a VF-1EX

[Gerli]

The Canopy area seems totally new and more stylized, the rest of the airframe is the same as the old VF-1, right?

[azrael]

The Canopy area seems totally new and more stylized, the rest of the airframe is the same as the old VF-1, right?

Probably to keep up with the EX-Gear upgrade. The airframe and engines are probably up to VF-1X standards.

(Production-wise, that was a cheap way to reuse the cockpit from the VF-31)

[RedWolf]

I'm starting to think the Elysion's class was developed alongside the Quarter class is the base of the foot is just as movable.

[d3v]

I wonder how turning off the AI limited on the VF-1EX (or any other variable fighter) works. I assume it's just analogous to cutting off the alpha limiter on a real fighter jet, except it doesn't just cover angle of attack. I mean, there's no way he can continue to ply if the fly by wire was actually turned off.

[Domcalmet1]

what do you think of Delta team not using delta wings?. I loved one passage of the Macross the First about the 9 series Valks (VF-9, VF-19 and VF-29) as being the ones with swept forward wings and I think it would make so much more sense for the engineering, mythology and the series title to have all VF-31 with delta wings. I believe that they chose to use the swept forward wings in order for the plane to imitate the valkure hand gesture of the "W". It really bothers me somehow