Macross Δ (Delta) Mecha/Technology Thread - READ 1st POST

[Graham]

I doubt it detaches. At least I hope not. Doesn't look large enough to actually hold any ammo if it does.

[Graham]

That's a fair point... there have been railgun gun pods in that continuity for a decade or two by 2067, used by both NUNS and enemy VFs.

I guess there's just nothing quite as satisfyingly impressive as spraying clouds of spent brass everywhere.

Hang on, excluding the railgun gunpods and SAP-mounted railgun used by the VF-2SS in Macross II, which is not in the same continuity anyway, what rail guns have we seen in the main Macross timeline?

The only two railguns I can think of are Michael's 55mm SSL-9B Dragunov sniper rifle and the 4 large mounted Shinnakasu/Vigors 320mm railguns on the VB-6 in Macross Frontier.

I certainly don't remember any other railgun gunpods.

Graham

[d3v]

I doubt it detaches. At least I hope not. Doesn't look large enough to actually hold any ammo if it does.

Rewatched episode 1, I didn't see any time where it was detached in Gerwalk mode.

[VF-9 Cirno]

Rewatched episode 1, I didn't see any time where it was detached in Gerwalk mode.

Don't know if the CAD drawings for the 1/72 scale model are accurate, but it shows the gun-pod both attached to the mission pod and detached as well. It looks like the upper part of the gun-pod slides forward, much like how the VF-25's gunpod had a part that dropped down. I'm going by the images over at Amiami, and it really does look like there's almost no room in the gun-pod for any kind of ammo storage, nor any room in the backpack for reloads for the arm cannons. Which I think just spin 180, but don't actually detach.

Edited April 13, 2016 by VF-9 Cirno

[Mr March]

Hang on, excluding the railgun gunpods and SAP-mounted railgun used by the VF-2SS in Macross II, which is not in the same continuity anyway, what rail guns have we seen in the main Macross timeline?

The only two railguns I can think of are Michael's 55mm SSL-9B Dragunov sniper rifle and the 4 large mounted Shinnakasu/Vigors 320mm railguns on the VB-6 in Macross Frontier.

I certainly don't remember any other railgun gunpods.

Graham

In the official continuity, there are the 4 x high speed 178 cm electro magnetic rail cannons on the SDF-1 Macross. We obviously see them every time we see the Macross, but they were shown "firing" only once, in SDF Macross Episode 27. Images attached.

I'd say that depending upon your interpretation of both the official and unofficial Macross trivia, many of the OverTechnology weapons are functionally performing as rail guns, despite their more conventional firing systems ENHANCED by OverTechnology. The 78 mm high-speed automatic cannons of the MBR-04-Mk X Destroid Defender have an officially published muzzle velocity of 3,300 m/s, which is damned close to the 3,500 m/s achieved by current, real world rail guns. And some of the unofficial numbers published for the valkyrie gun pods describe those weapons firing faster than basic rail guns, like the YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur's GU-15 gun pod unofficial published muzzle velocity of 4,000 m/s. Some might dismiss those unofficial numbers, but one has to figure these guns need to keep pace with the speeds of the advanced valkyries, which - by the time of the Macross Plus-era - are flying at speeds and thrust-to-weight ratios FAR beyond the fastest jets we have today. Even a VF-1 Valkyire is flying so fast it's probably all but effectively immune to any cannon firing at a conventional muzzle velocity.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Mr March

[Seto Kaiba]

Hang on, excluding the railgun gunpods and SAP-mounted railgun used by the VF-2SS in Macross II, which is not in the same continuity anyway, what rail guns have we seen in the main Macross timeline?

The only two railguns I can think of are Michael's 55mm SSL-9B Dragunov sniper rifle and the 4 large mounted Shinnakasu/Vigors 320mm railguns on the VB-6 in Macross Frontier.

I certainly don't remember any other railgun gunpods.

Angers 672's Queadluun-Alma¹ was equipped with a rifle-type railgun pod for close-quarters combat in Macross the Ride.

Also, Chelsea Scarlett's YF-25 gained a non-standard railgun pod in the form of the SPS-25P/MF25 Paladin Pack's Blaze Lance in Macross the Ride (which is, yes, actually shaped like a lance).

1. Arguably a VF, as it's based on the Feios Valkyrie (by the same in-universe developer) though it toes the line into being a variable Zentradi battle suit.

[Zinjo]

That's a fair point... there have been railgun gun pods in that continuity for a decade or two by 2067, used by both NUNS and enemy VFs.

I guess there's just nothing quite as satisfyingly impressive as spraying clouds of spent brass everywhere.

Rail Gun or DEW's?

A rail gun is a projectile weapon, it uses magnetics for projectile propulsion as opposed to chemical reaction. DEW's (Directed Energy Weapons) have been all over the Valks since the beginning.

In space it would be an ideal weapon, but would loose some performance in an atmosphere (though still substantially superior to chemical rounds in the same environment).

Edited April 13, 2016 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

Rail Gun or DEW's?

A rail gun is a projectile weapon, it uses magnetics for projectile propulsion as opposed to chemical reaction. DEW's (Directed Energy Weapons) have been all over the Valks since the beginning.

... OK, I'm lost. How could you possibly take "there have been railgun gun pods in that continuity for a decade or two by 2067" to mean anything other than that railguns have been employed in gun pod form for years prior to Macross Delta? I didn't even mention energy weapons...

Edited April 13, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Laundro]

nerd alert!!

Seriously though, i love the stuff that goes on in the thread

[Raptor One]

Don't know if the CAD drawings for the 1/72 scale model are accurate, but it shows the gun-pod both attached to the mission pod and detached as well. It looks like the upper part of the gun-pod slides forward, much like how the VF-25's gunpod had a part that dropped down. I'm going by the images over at Amiami, and it really does look like there's almost no room in the gun-pod for any kind of ammo storage, nor any room in the backpack for reloads for the arm cannons. Which I think just spin 180, but don't actually detach.

The question about ammo was related to the arm cannons and whether or not they detach. The gunpod detaching is well known and I think the current assumption is that it's some sort of beam weapon so no ammo required.

[Graham]

In the official continuity, there are the 4 x high speed 178 cm electro magnetic rail cannons on the SDF-1 Macross. We obviously see them every time we see the Macross, but they were shown "firing" only once, in SDF Macross Episode 27. Images attached.

I'd say that depending upon your interpretation of both the official and unofficial Macross trivia, many of the OverTechnology weapons are functionally performing as rail guns, despite their more conventional firing systems ENHANCED by OverTechnology. The 78 mm high-speed automatic cannons of the MBR-04-Mk X Destroid Defender have an officially published muzzle velocity of 3,300 m/s, which is damned close to the 3,500 m/s achieved by current, real world rail guns. And some of the unofficial numbers published for the valkyrie gun pods describe those weapons firing faster than basic rail guns, like the YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur's GU-15 gun pod unofficial published muzzle velocity of 4,000 m/s. Some might dismiss those unofficial numbers, but one has to figure these guns need to keep pace with the speeds of the advanced valkyries, which - by the time of the Macross Plus-era - are flying at speeds and thrust-to-weight ratios FAR beyond the fastest jets we have today. Even a VF-1 Valkyire is flying so fast it's probably all but effectively immune to any cannon firing at a conventional muzzle velocity.

I tend to discount any information that is non-official. So yeah I treat the Master Files and other such non-official sources as fanfic (but with pretty pictures)......LOL.

I can't remember if Macross the Ride is considered canon or not.

I didn't mention the SDF-1's rail guns on purpose, as the discussion was about VFs, not capital ships.

But anyway, a pod mounted rail gun for dog fighting would make sense for many reasons as long as it cold have a high enough rate of fire. Having the VF-31's arm guns being rail guns would also have the advantage of having them being able to draw power from the VF, than user a separate powerpack/capacitor system for power.

[sketchley]

I can't remember if Macross the Ride is considered canon or not.

It is, along with M30. Never-mind the inconsistencies with the other series.

[Graham]

I don't think this has been mentioned before, but the Sv-262 may be the first ever VF to feature an internal fold drive.

We see the Sv-262's fold in, but there appears to be no externally mounted Fold Booster. Neither do we see them jettison a Fold Booster.

Graham

[RedWolf]

I don't think this has been mentioned before, but the Sv-262 may be the first ever VF to feature an internal fold drive.

We see the Sv-262's fold in, but there appears to be no externally mounted Fold Booster. Neither do we see them jettison a Fold Booster.

Graham

I assume they have a command ship behind. Roid did give them orders.

[Graham]

Just I find it interesting that the anime shows them exiting from fold, with no sign of a mother ship.

Yes, I guess they could have either launched from a mother ship just prior to coming out of fold or be traveling outside the mother ship, using it's fold bubble/tunnel etc (whatever the term is these days).

It would be cool though if fold drives have been miniaturized enough to fit inside the Sv-262s. Which leads to the next questions, if they have, then what is the recharge time between folds and maximum fold distance?

Graham

[VF-9 Cirno]

The question about ammo was related to the arm cannons and whether or not they detach. The gunpod detaching is well known and I think the current assumption is that it's some sort of beam weapon so no ammo required.

Yeah, I kinda smashed two topics together. Ack. Anyways, I originally thought the mini 'shields' might be a ammo containers for the arm cannons, but the 1/72 model shows that the hidden underside of that 'shield' actually is merely a storage area for the VF's tactical PPB knife. As to the specifics of it detaching? I've yet to see anything that might show its possible.

I don't think this has been mentioned before, but the Sv-262 may be the first ever VF to feature an internal fold drive.

We see the Sv-262's fold in, but there appears to be no externally mounted Fold Booster. Neither do we see them jettison a Fold Booster.

Graham

MIght be another 'animation error' just like how during Frontier, the first time we see the VF-27s inside a Fold, they were animated without Fold Boosters. Although at this point, considering how every side's tech has been increasing, I'm amazed we've yet to see a VF that has an internalized Fold drive. Even if its just a short-ranged one.

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't think this has been mentioned before, but the Sv-262 may be the first ever VF to feature an internal fold drive.

We see the Sv-262's fold in, but there appears to be no externally mounted Fold Booster. Neither do we see them jettison a Fold Booster.

Roid appears to be standing on the bridge of a starship when he issues them their orders... so they may have ridden into the battle zone on the fold effect of an Aerial Knights warship/carrier.

[Mr March]

I tend to discount any information that is non-official. So yeah I treat the Master Files and other such non-official sources as fanfic (but with pretty pictures)......LOL.

I can't remember if Macross the Ride is considered canon or not.

I didn't mention the SDF-1's rail guns on purpose, as the discussion was about VFs, not capital ships.

But anyway, a pod mounted rail gun for dog fighting would make sense for many reasons as long as it cold have a high enough rate of fire. Having the VF-31's arm guns being rail guns would also have the advantage of having them being able to draw power from the VF, than user a separate powerpack/capacitor system for power.

I also considered that context, but your post specifically asked to exclude gun pods and asked generally "what rail guns have we seen in the main Macross timeline?". That's why I jumped in and because - as always - this was an opportunity to use all that useless Macross trivia in my head, lol

I understand some fans might prefer ignoring unofficial trivia. However, I've posted before that as official Macross merchandise (even with "disclaimers") those products are by definition beyond fan-fiction (which is all unofficial by default). But some of the best material in Sky Angels or the Master Files describes trivia that's not officially covered. Those publications fill in gaps that fans can find illuminating, some of it is even in line with the official statistics. Most important of all, some of that unofficial trivia HAS made it into the official canon over the years, most notably the Macross Chronicle. IMO, it's always worth considering.

Regarding variable fighter rail guns, like I said even ignoring unofficial trivia, the performance of the variable fighters would presume the gun pods fire faster than conventional weapons. Real world militaries employ fast muzzle velocity weapons with high rates of fire out of necessity (both air-borne and ship-borne CIWS), because without such weapons it's impractical to attack high speed targets like jet fighters and missiles. To effectively attack a target with the speed and maneuverability of a variable fighter would likely require a gun pod firing munitions far faster than conventional guns.

At that point, rail guns (at least those firing 3,500 m/s) really becomes a moot point given that the gun pods would need to be hypervelocity just so the official fiction make sense. That's why the Destroid Defender guns fire at 3,300 m/s, an OFFICIAL hypervelocity figure that is NOT a rail gun. It's also why Masahiro Chiba and the Master File writers wrote trivia for hypervelocity gun pods. They simply thought through the practical demands of the Macross fiction.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Mr March

[Zinjo]

It is, along with M30. Never-mind the inconsistencies with the other series.

Well with each Macross release given it's own temporal continuity, having any sort of official continuity is rather moot...

Just I find it interesting that the anime shows them exiting from fold, with no sign of a mother ship.

Yes, I guess they could have either launched from a mother ship just prior to coming out of fold or be traveling outside the mother ship, using it's fold bubble/tunnel etc (whatever the term is these days).

It would be cool though if fold drives have been miniaturized enough to fit inside the Sv-262s. Which leads to the next questions, if they have, then what is the recharge time between folds and maximum fold distance?

Graham

If internal fold drives do now exist, I would expect they'd be for short hops in order to keep the Mothership out of sight but the task force within striking distance of the target.

[d3v]

Something I noticed in one of the cockpit shots of the VF-31. Aren't those EX-GEAR shoulders?

[Nazareno2012]

Something I noticed in one of the cockpit shots of the VF-31. Aren't those EX-GEAR shoulders?

I am pretty sure the VF-31 uses EX-Gear, and also assume that all new model VF's since the VF-25 use EX-Gear.

[Dash]

I am pretty sure the VF-31 uses EX-Gear, and also assume that all new model VF's since the VF-25 use EX-Gear.

Yeah, and not only that, even the VF-1 that Hayate's using for his training has an Ex-gear

[Nazareno2012]

Yeah, and not only that, even the VF-1 that Hayate's using for his training has an Ex-gear

I think it is a retrofit craft like the VF-171EX from Frontier, with less substantial modification.

[BChoinski]

Roid appears to be standing on the bridge of a starship when he issues them their orders... so they may have ridden into the battle zone on the fold effect of an Aerial Knights warship/carrier.

I thought that was what he meant (in the subs) "return to branch" in the second episode, as the code word or name of their carrier.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah, and not only that, even the VF-1 that Hayate's using for his training has an Ex-gear

IIRC, not the first time an EX-Gear equipped VF-1 has been mentioned... though I think the first mention was an unofficial proof of concept aircraft or something along those lines. (I think it was in a model hobby magazine.)

[ManhattanProject972]

Yeah, and not only that, even the VF-1 that Hayate's using for his training has an Ex-gear

I wonder if he actually is flying a VF-1 or its just a simulator?

[Raptor One]

It is, along with M30. Never-mind the inconsistencies with the other series.

What kind of inconsistencies are we talking about? For The Ride that is

Edited April 14, 2016 by Raptor One

[Seto Kaiba]

I wonder if he actually is flying a VF-1 or its just a simulator?

I'd guess the real deal... various other Macross titles (most notably 7, but also the novelization of Frontier) have shown old VF-1's being used as training aircraft for new pilots because they're as close to dirt-cheap as a VF can conceivably get.

[VF-9 Cirno]

I'd guess the real deal... various other Macross titles (most notably 7, but also the novelization of Frontier) have shown old VF-1's being used as training aircraft for new pilots because they're as close to dirt-cheap as a VF can conceivably get.

Depends. If its a bog-standard VF-1, then yes, its about as dirt-cheap of a VF as you can get with the possible exception of the VF-9 (which is even smaller). The VF-1X on the other hand hovers somewhere between the VF-4 and VF-11 in performance. A VF-1X+ is somewhere above a VF-11's performance envelop, but below the VF-17/VF-19. And then there's the 'VF-1 In Name Only', known as the VF-1X++, from Macross: The Ride, that externally looks like a VF-1, but internally, is basically a VF-25. And its performance levels are literally lethal to anyone that isn't a top level pilot. I've heard one description for the Double Plus as a VF-1 that went Super-Saiyan. For a short, sweet, summarization, its about as accurate a descriptor as you can get.

So the VF-1 Hayate is flying could be any number of block upgrades, beyond the A/D/S/etc variants. Its just that as a trainer craft, there's added limiters on it that are slowly removed as a pilot trainee's skill increases. Then they move to the next trainer which has increased performance - with limiters on - over the maximum the previous trainer could do, even with its limiters off. Which may/may not be a VF-1. That'd let them keep pushing the trainee's skill just a tad bit more, and so on, until he/she is good enough for the current generation of VFs.

Its one thing I think was sorely missed in Frontier, as it only showed Alto in a simulator, and which I'm glad Kawamori added, just so we can really look back and see someone go from over-confident newbie who's about to learn the hard way, all the way up to the level hinted at in the OP where he's on par with a Jenius and capable of pulling off that family's famous back-to-back stunt.

[Zinjo]

Yep.

Looks like

Well if the VF-1's were as awful to fly as has been indicated, it is the best way to learn. Getting accustomed to flying a barrel makes flying a more responsive aircraft that much easier.

[Sildani]

Ok. Where is it written that the VF-1s were terrible to fly?

[kajnrig]

Its one thing I think was sorely missed in Frontier, as it only showed Alto in a simulator, and which I'm glad Kawamori added, just so we can really look back and see someone go from over-confident newbie who's about to learn the hard way, all the way up to the level hinted at in the OP where he's on par with a Jenius and capable of pulling off that family's famous back-to-back stunt.

I think a large part of that had to do with lack of space, ie there's not much sky to fly around in. There's lots of space, sure, but I guess they still place a priority on operating under gravity.

[Seto Kaiba]

Depends. If its a bog-standard VF-1, then yes, its about as dirt-cheap of a VF as you can get with the possible exception of the VF-9 (which is even smaller). The VF-1X on the other hand hovers somewhere between the VF-4 and VF-11 in performance. A VF-1X+ is somewhere above a VF-11's performance envelop, but below the VF-17/VF-19.

Ah... not really sure where that's comin' from.

The non-"Plus" version of the VF-1X was, IIRC, a Master File-only variant that's written up as an upgrade of mothballed Block 4 and 5 VF-1 units reworked with avionics upgrades, strengthened wings, and a slightly more powerful engine as a stopgap measure that was implemented while they were waiting for the VF-5000 to go into production. It wasn't quite as good as a VF-4, but it was still a viable improvement. The VF-1X Plus is a more sweeping modernization that, when equipped with its Super Packs, is on a roughly level footing with a VF-11 in terms of overall performance.

And then there's the 'VF-1 In Name Only', known as the VF-1X++, from Macross: The Ride, that externally looks like a VF-1, but internally, is basically a VF-25. And its performance levels are literally lethal to anyone that isn't a top level pilot. I've heard one description for the Double Plus as a VF-1 that went Super-Saiyan. For a short, sweet, summarization, its about as accurate a descriptor as you can get.

Not an entirely accurate summation, I'm afraid...

We don't know what the stock VF-1X++ is like, except that its materials are lighter and it's meant for undercover work, because the only one we've seen is one that's been extensively retrofitted and customized for air racing by a man of questionable sanity and an unhealthy enthusiasm for "more power". (At this juncture, kindly mentally insert some grunting if you've seen Home Improvement.) Hakuna Aoba's custom job replaced the stock engines with massively more powerful ones designed for unmanned fighters, a few improvements to maneuverability, and some conformal fuel tanks reworked into holders for booster rockets... all of which reduced the fighter to a highly unstable, borderline-uncontrollable mess that's forever one mistake away from becoming a fireball (as Ride's author put it). The only tech shared with the VF-25 was that the racing custom's FAST pack had an inertia store converter built in.

(You may be thinking of Hakuna Aoba's mid-story upgrade, which was a VF-0A that'd been basically reworked from the ground up with the help of Katori Brown-Robbins, General Galaxy's Guld Works, and LAI until it was far more YF-25 than VF-0.)

So the VF-1 Hayate is flying could be any number of block upgrades, beyond the A/D/S/etc variants. Its just that as a trainer craft, there's added limiters on it that are slowly removed as a pilot trainee's skill increases. Then they move to the next trainer which has increased performance - with limiters on - over the maximum the previous trainer could do, even with its limiters off. Which may/may not be a VF-1. That'd let them keep pushing the trainee's skill just a tad bit more, and so on, until he/she is good enough for the current generation of VFs.

Its one thing I think was sorely missed in Frontier, as it only showed Alto in a simulator, and which I'm glad Kawamori added, just so we can really look back and see someone go from over-confident newbie who's about to learn the hard way, all the way up to the level hinted at in the OP where he's on par with a Jenius and capable of pulling off that family's famous back-to-back stunt.

True, the VF-1 that Hayate is flying could be one of any number of variants acquired through military disposal sales or built for the civilian market.

I'm not sure where you got the rest from, as it's not really consistent with the training programs we're shown and told about in the various Macross works I've seen and read. Usually the trajectory is Simulator -> Tandem Trainer -> Actual Aircraft. The Macross Frontier novelization had Alto and other Mihoshi Academy pilot students train on detuned VF-1s (identified as VF-1Cs), but that's independent of SMS's training for its pilots. Even when we're shown totally green pilots being trained, they're being trained on a simulator for the model of fighter they're eventually going to fly (like Gamlin training on a VF-11 simulator during basic).

Well if the VF-1's were as awful to fly as has been indicated, it is the best way to learn. Getting accustomed to flying a barrel makes flying a more responsive aircraft that much easier.

It probably helps that the VF-1 is cheap enough and easy enough to repair that a rookie wrecking one won't be a bank-breaking problem for a well-to-do PMC, a top-tier vocational school, or the military.

[d3v]

Its one thing I think was sorely missed in Frontier, as it only showed Alto in a simulator, and which I'm glad Kawamori added, just so we can really look back and see someone go from over-confident newbie who's about to learn the hard way, all the way up to the level hinted at in the OP where he's on par with a Jenius and capable of pulling off that family's famous back-to-back stunt.

Well Alto already knew how to fly, the issue with him was turning him into a combat pilot. For Hayate on the other hand, it seems that they actually need to teach him how to fly properly first.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok. Where is it written that the VF-1s were terrible to fly?

Gamlin didn't think much of Milia's VF-1 when he flew it... I think that might be where that's coming from.