Star Trek: Discovery

[Seto Kaiba]

12 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

I'm not sure if them getting along worse than Voyager's crew is a slight against Discovery, or Voyager.  

Definitely against Discovery.

Say what you will about Voyager, but its crew actually got along pretty easily with the sole exception of psychopathic murderer Lon Suder and borg drone Seven of Nine.

Discovery's crew all treat each other the way Seven of Nine treats Harry.  Sneering contempt.

 

6 hours ago, tekering said:

We really shouldn't expect Discovery to be as realistic as a Disney comedy. 

We shouldn't expect Discovery to be anything but unapologetically bad.

 

6 hours ago, Lexomatic said:

And that's the distillation of all these point-by-point critiques, isn't it? Does ST:DSC entice you to spend your limited entertainment hours on it, or do you pick an alternative? For any show, each viewer will look for a different combination of ingredients ...

Coherent plot, engaging mystery, quotable lines, individual performances, character interaction, fight choreography, space battles, mecha design, vistas, SF/F ideas and worldbuilding, commentary on current social issues or the human condition, whether it fits with/extends the larger fictional milieu, music

... and DSC doesn't excel at any of these. It has isolated moments, but it's mostly a slog. If you watched the whole thing in real time there was the hope that maybe the disparate pieces would eventually converge in a satisfying way ; but if you're on the fence, you can rely on reviews that no, they don't. A corporate owner relies on "fannish loyalty" regardless of quality, but a responsible entertainment-consumer will recognize commitment bias and sunk-cost fallacy, and jump ship.

The worst part is that Discovery's showrunners are aware of at least some of the show's problems... but their efforts to address some of those issues only result in them digging a deeper hole for themselves.

One thing @BlackRose pointed out to me while we were working on the next PI's work plan is that the ending of Discovery's 3rd season has effectively upset the apple cart in the interstellar political scene.  The Federation has an effective near-monopoly on dilithium now, the all-important glowing rocks needed to make interstellar travel work.  A monopoly on the dilithium supply means that the Federation can dictate terms to ANYONE.  They get to decide who can sustain an interstellar civilization and who can't.

[pengbuzz]

42 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The worst part is that Discovery's showrunners are aware of at least some of the show's problems... but their efforts to address some of those issues only result in them digging a deeper hole for themselves.

One thing @BlackRose pointed out to me while we were working on the next PI's work plan is that the ending of Discovery's 3rd season has effectively upset the apple cart in the interstellar political scene.  The Federation has an effective near-monopoly on dilithium now, the all-important glowing rocks needed to make interstellar travel work.  A monopoly on the dilithium supply means that the Federation can dictate terms to ANYONE.  They get to decide who can sustain an interstellar civilization and who can't.

In other words: they just got catapulted back to being a major power. Earth and other former members now have no choice but to either rejoin the Federation, or sit there and stagnate.

BTW: is Mars still on fire?

Edited January 19, 2021 by pengbuzz

[Thom]

7 hours ago, Lexomatic said:

...

Coherent plot, engaging mystery, quotable lines, individual performances....

I think they tried for a clever quote just after Michael killed Osyrra. She's looking almost right into the camera, full face shot, and says. 'I never quit!'

Basically as that was a difference between her and the Wicked Witch - except that the Wicked Witch had never quit either...

It just came off as hokey though.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Thom

[Seto Kaiba]

46 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

In other words: they just got catapulted back to being a major power. Earth and other former members now have no choice but to either rejoin the Federation, or sit there and stagnate.

BTW: is Mars still on fire?

Not just a major power... THE major power.  

Given the alleged scarcity of dilithium and its alleged indispensability in warp drives, the Federation now has every other galactic power over a barrel.  Everyone else is scrounging for scraps to keep what few ships they have running while the Federation now has the reserves to dictate who gets to have interstellar capability.

[pengbuzz]

On 1/19/2021 at 4:24 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Not just a major power... THE major power.  

Given the alleged scarcity of dilithium and its alleged indispensability in warp drives, the Federation now has every other galactic power over a barrel.  Everyone else is scrounging for scraps to keep what few ships they have running while the Federation now has the reserves to dictate who gets to have interstellar capability.

Going to be a different dynamic... at least until Burnham and Discovery find a way to screw it all up (probably involve Tilly doing something utterly stupid).

[Thom]

They didn't say who the No1 is now, did they? Probably still Tilly...

[pengbuzz]

5 hours ago, Thom said:

They didn't say who the No1 is now, did they? Probably still Tilly...

If TIlly is still "No. 1", then they are going to be eyeball-deep in Number 2....

[Thom]

54 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

If TIlly is still "No. 1", then they are going to be eyeball-deep in Number 2....

Good thing their future tech can create hip-waders and shovels out of thin air.

[Seto Kaiba]

14 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Going to be a different dynamic... at least until Burnham and Discovery find a way to screw it all up (probably involve Tilly doing something utterly stupid).

In all fairness, while Tilly is absolutely the USS Discovery's chief screw-up officer she's far from the only one with amazing talent to do the worst thing possible in any situation. 

She's got Burnham with her, after all.

 

6 hours ago, Thom said:

They didn't say who the No1 is now, did they? Probably still Tilly...

1 hour ago, pengbuzz said:

If TIlly is still "No. 1", then they are going to be eyeball-deep in Number 2....

After Tilly's amazing performance in her first command situation, who else would they possibly turn to?

It takes a special kind of Starfleet officer to bungle a command situation so completely that Starfleet's most valuable starship falls into enemy hands with such breathtaking speed and ease that veteran Orion space pirates are initially convinced it must be a trap and then left utterly befuddled that it wasn't.

Fleet Admiral Vance needs to Tenchi Muyou! GXP this hot mess and find a way to weaponize Tilly's monumental incompetence the way the Galaxy Police and Jurai royal family had weaponized Seina Yamada's impossible, physics-defyingly bad luck. 

Tilly's such a walking disasterpiece that they could send her back in time to be used as a Borg invasion deterrent.  She'd be the first thing since the Kazon that'd make the collective decide assimilation wasn't worth the effort.

 

8 minutes ago, Thom said:

Good thing their future tech can create hip-waders and shovels out of thin air.

Not out of thin air... out of the number 2, ironically enough. 

[pengbuzz]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

In all fairness, while Tilly is absolutely the USS Discovery's chief screw-up officer she's far from the only one with amazing talent to do the worst thing possible in any situation. 

She's got Burnham with her, after all.

 

After Tilly's amazing performance in her first command situation, who else would they possibly turn to?

It takes a special kind of Starfleet officer to bungle a command situation so completely that Starfleet's most valuable starship falls into enemy hands with such breathtaking speed and ease that veteran Orion space pirates are initially convinced it must be a trap and then left utterly befuddled that it wasn't.

Fleet Admiral Vance needs to Tenchi Muyou! GXP this hot mess and find a way to weaponize Tilly's monumental incompetence the way the Galaxy Police and Jurai royal family had weaponized Seina Yamada's impossible, physics-defyingly bad luck. 

Tilly's such a walking disasterpiece that they could send her back in time to be used as a Borg invasion deterrent.  She'd be the first thing since the Kazon that'd make the collective decide assimilation wasn't worth the effort.

 

Not out of thin air... out of the number 2, ironically enough. 

I imagine the Borg trying to assimilate Tilly and the entire collective commits suicide the instant they sense her presence.

[peter]

 

Lol, can't remember if I posted this here before or if someone else did, but this channel has some really good videos and edits to make this show better.

[peter]

ETA:

Ok, wrong show, but still awesome.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by peter
Wrong show

[peter]

 

Last one.

[Seto Kaiba]

16 hours ago, peter said:

 

Lol, can't remember if I posted this here before or if someone else did, but this channel has some really good videos and edits to make this show better.

All in all, it really is just embarrassing for Star Trek that individual fan YouTube pages can produce more professional-looking content in their spare time than CBS can manage with an $8M+ per episode budget. 

Especially when it comes to that Star Trek: Picard one... that's assembled from upscaled stock footage, and it looks substantially better than the brand-new digital VFX created for the series.

[Thom]

17 hours ago, peter said:

ETA:

Ok, wrong show, but still awesome.

I love that sequence! Only two things wrong. 1) it is too short. And 2) Is still has the popping-sound when coming out of warp (weird). Wait, and a third! 3) It's not in the actual episode!

[pengbuzz]

On 2/13/2021 at 6:01 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

All in all, it really is just embarrassing for Star Trek that individual fan YouTube pages can produce more professional-looking content in their spare time than CBS can manage with an $8M+ per episode budget. 

Especially when it comes to that Star Trek: Picard one... that's assembled from upscaled stock footage, and it looks substantially better than the brand-new digital VFX created for the series.

ST: Picard would have better luck dangling snap-together models on fishing line at the rate their "SFX" is going.

At any rate, nothing really comes as a surprise for me anymore for either Picard or Discovery; we've already covered in extensive detail how much they are phoning all of this in, and it passed the "embarrassing" mark a few light-years back. Frankly, the fault is in the crew helming this operation on every level. The incompetence shows in everything they are producing for this ill-begotten series, and that amateurs can outdo them with home rigs is just the icing on the cake.

Let's face it: they were expecting to just hack together some gritty crap with what they could scrape up, added foul language for extra "grit", slapped a formerly-lucrative franchise title on it and were most likely expecting the name alone to sell it.

The rest is history.

Anyways, I'll probably chime in from time to time on this, but all I'm doing now is beating a dead horse with an equally dead phaser. So with that, I think I'll take a break from this topic folks.

Edited February 15, 2021 by pengbuzz

[sh9000]

 

[Bolt]

Haven't watched any Discovery yet. Maybe it will be next. Rewatching:Enterprise these days. 

[Seto Kaiba]

Do not want.

[JB0]

They found a sucker to pony up more dough for this trainwreck?

[technoblue]

I was really turned off by how the writers had Michael turn on Saru last season to make that power grab for Discovery’s Captain’s chair. The plot with the child was already strained, but that tangent on who should lead put an even bigger damper on everything for me. It reminded me of the reckless characterizations from season one.

Anyway, I think this Trek story lost me. I don’t want to find out what happens next.

 

Edited April 8, 2021 by technoblue

[pengbuzz]

...and somebody out there in Hollyweird keeps pouring gasoline on this dumpster fire.

[Thom]

When I pay to watch ST: SNW, I might peak over and see if the writing and actor has moved past the juvenile stage.

[derex3592]

I think it's absolutely hilarious that everyone talks SO much sh*t about this show and is all  "IT WON'T LAST 2 SEASONS!", "THE PRODUCTION IS IN TERRIBLE TROUBLE!!!"  Yeh, well, how's that working out for all you keyboard warriors? LOL! I personally can't stand the show, but obviously it isn't going anywhere, so it's making someone money somehow. 

[technoblue]

53 minutes ago, derex3592 said:

I think it's absolutely hilarious that everyone talks SO much sh*t about this show and is all  "IT WON'T LAST 2 SEASONS!", "THE PRODUCTION IS IN TERRIBLE TROUBLE!!!"  Yeh, well, how's that working out for all you keyboard warriors? LOL! I personally can't stand the show, but obviously it isn't going anywhere, so it's making someone money somehow. 

Well, not all shows that last multiple seasons are good. Look at all of the police procedurals and reality shows that have taken over network television for years. They all follow a template. But you're right, even so they are probably making someone money somehow.

I think the Discovery template is benefiting from the streaming model. If it had to compete on network television, we would have most likely seen a different outcome for the show. I think the people who are complaining have valid takes. I mean, it is frustrating to watch. Anyway, taking a step back, I find it amusing how much dreck actually does appear on the major streaming networks. I guess it's easier to take risks with an on-line audience? Honestly, though, I appreciate the value of my streaming subscriptions when I get to see more gems.

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, JB0 said:

They found a sucker to pony up more dough for this trainwreck?

8 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

...and somebody out there in Hollyweird keeps pouring gasoline on this dumpster fire.

ViacomCBS itself, by the sound of it.

They're having so much trouble finding funding for development of their streaming properties that, late last month, they announced plans to sell off $3 billion in stock to finance new development for Paramount+.  The news led to a massive sell-off as major stakeholders liquidated their positions and the value of ViacomCBS stock cratered.  The company lost over 55% of its valuation in less than a week and have continued to slip ever since.  At time of writing, ViacomCBS is down 57.2% from where it was when they made the announcement.

 

1 hour ago, derex3592 said:

I think it's absolutely hilarious that everyone talks SO much sh*t about this show and is all  "IT WON'T LAST 2 SEASONS!", "THE PRODUCTION IS IN TERRIBLE TROUBLE!!!"  Yeh, well, how's that working out for all you keyboard warriors?

Pretty poorly... but not for the reason you think.

We massively overestimated ViacomCBS's intelligence.  They've fallen prey to a sunk costs fallacy, and continue to desperately pump money into the failed series in the hopes that it'll take off and they can recover the hundreds of millions of dollars they spent developing it.  Rather than admit that they misjudged their audience, they're flying themselves and their flagship brand into the ground.

Their fallback recovery plan, Strange New Worlds, is effectively a series version of the concept of a "bottle episode".  They're taking the production assets leftover from Discovery's post-S2 retooling and attempting to make a whole second show out of them with the only parts of S2 that tested well as cheaply as possible in a desperate attempt to get some money coming in.

 

Quote

LOL! I personally can't stand the show, but obviously it isn't going anywhere, so it's making someone money somehow. 

Well, no... the whole problem is that it isn't.  Not enough to offset what they're spending to make it, anyway.

Netflix, the show's financial backer, has made major cuts to the show's budget at the end of every season thus far because Discovery is not performing up to expectations overseas.  They tried to back out of the series altogether at one point, until CBS threatened to sue them for breach of contract.

CBS's financial position was already perilous because Discovery killed the Star Trek merchandising money printer, and after merging with Viacom their position has bizarrely gotten even worse to the point that they're at risk of the Justice dept. finding them in violation of the terms of their merger agreement.  Now they're selling off huge quantities of stock in an effort to raise the money they're no longer able to get from investors and distribution partners, and it's tanked the value of the company's stock.  They literally managed to lose money on raising money.

Edited April 8, 2021 by Seto Kaiba

[pengbuzz]

5 hours ago, derex3592 said:

Yeh, well, how's that working out for all you keyboard warriors?

Considering that they have yet to produce an actual full season of episodes in one season (15 for Season 1, 14 for Season 2, when a season is normally 22 episodes), continue to lose money while selling everything but the kitchen sink, and have a first officer who would be most effective for Starfleet if she joined the enemy side, about pretty good so far.

Edited April 8, 2021 by pengbuzz

[Dynaman]

A "season" has not normally been 22 episodes for a couple decades now.

[pengbuzz]

2 minutes ago, Dynaman said:

A "season" has not normally been 22 episodes for a couple decades now.

Let me know when they get to 4, then...

[Dynaman]

1 minute ago, pengbuzz said:

Let me know when they get to 4, then...

I've seen shows go as low as 6.  They try to cover it up by calling it season X.5...

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Considering that they have yet to produce an actual full season of episodes in one season (15 for Season 1, 14 for Season 2, when a season is normally 22 episodes), continue to lose money while selling everything but the kitchen sink, and have a first officer who would be most effective for Starfleet if she joined the enemy side, about pretty good so far.

For the record, the US term "season" and its UK equivalent "series" do not imply any particular length.  It only actually means "a new annual or semi-annual set of episodes" usually as an unbroken production run.

 

21 minutes ago, pengbuzz said:

Let me know when they get to 4, then...

I'll do you one better.

Red Dwarf series/season IX.  It's got a whopping THREE episodes.  But that's British brevity for you.

Still, it's more telling that Star Trek: Discovery's per-season episode count continues to decrease WITHOUT a corresponding increase in per-episode production spending.  That's Star Trek: Discovery's showrunners feeling the sting of performance-based budget cuts without being able to compromise on quality in the cutthroat, VFX-heavy direct-to-streaming TV market.  When you see a successful series losing episode count it's usually because per-episode spending has increased dramatically, as it did on Game of Thrones starting in its 7th season.  

If Discovery's fourth season continues the pattern, it'll have 12 episodes or fewer... indicating yet another major budget cut from Netflix.

[lechuck]

Couple of days before the S4 starts Paramount decides to give Europe and other parts of the world the finger, very disappointing... 😒

Wonder how long Netflix gets to keep the old shows and before Picard disappears from Amazon Prime, probably no S2 to watch either.

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, lechuck said:

Couple of days before the S4 starts Paramount decides to give Europe and other parts of the world the finger, very disappointing... 😒

I guess the show's viewership on Netflix in the global market slipped to the point that Netflix isn't willing to fund it in exchange for the rest of world rights anymore.

That would definitely explain the huge stock selloff a year or so ago... with their cashflow problems, they didn't have the available cash to fund it on hand without Netflix.

(Alternatively, you could think of it as ViacomCBS doing everything it can to protect people from being exposed to this series...)

[pengbuzz]

15 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I guess the show's viewership on Netflix in the global market slipped to the point that Netflix isn't willing to fund it in exchange for the rest of world rights anymore.

That would definitely explain the huge stock selloff a year or so ago... with their cashflow problems, they didn't have the available cash to fund it on hand without Netflix.

(Alternatively, you could think of it as ViacomCBS doing everything it can to protect people from being exposed to this series...)

Well, cancellation would be a great help there...

[Seto Kaiba]

2 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Well, cancellation would be a great help there...

That's likely to be Discovery's next port of call if the viewers who were previously following the series on Netflix prove as unwilling to pay for yet another streaming service just so they can watch Star Trek as their American counterparts were/are.  Possibly all of new Trek, given that they were dependent on more cashflow-positive financial backers to provide funding for production of the new Trek shows.

Based on the incomplete picture we have of their situation, this feels like a very strange move for ViacomCBS to make.  If Amazon Prime and Netflix are withdrawing their support of the Star Trek shows they were previously sponsoring, it would certainly explain the stock price-cratering decision to try to raise $3 Billion for streaming development by selling shares back in Q1 2021.  They've also seen a steady decline in pre-tax profits over the last few years and the company's debt is over $21 Billion.  For them to suddenly decide they're gonna go all-in on the global launch of the proprietary streaming service that's been operating in the red since its creation has a sort of do-or-die "Hail Mary" vibe to it.  Either that or there was something major missing from the Q3 Earnings Call earlier this month that's making them much more confident than they would ordinarily be.

(It's enough to make you wonder if we'll be seeing Star Trek next to Simon & Schuster and CBS's old headquarters building on the auction block in the near future.  I gather they were really hoping to make bank selling Simon & Schuster to the parent company of Penguin Random House, but the UDOJ stepped in and stopped it with an antitrust filing earlier this month.)

Edited November 18, 2021 by Seto Kaiba