Alien: Covenant (formerly known as Prometheus 2)

[slaginpit]

Thankfully, I did not have to pay for this garbage. And why would anyone. Bollywood has be reprinting the same ol garbage and then feeding you trailers.

 

The characters. Not only were expendable but were dumb which made me not even watch how brutally expendable they are.

Can someone finally shoot the F*&@ing android already. 

Shaw is an idiot. Which explains a lot since most of her crew were also idiots.

No one clues in on the creepiness of Albert or Wong or whatever his name was cause I didnt care.

 

Which then makes me wonder how far disconnected from the original premise of the movie it was. A mysterious 3rd party alien that didnt you know look like a another human. Or that they created humans. Or that a dysfunctional bi pedal terminator robot scientist created a pretty stupid alien. Look at a panther. A friggen cat has more sense than this dumb ass monster.

 

This movie was just dumb. Thank god for torrents. If movies came with a satisfaction guarantee like most things bollywood would probably divest itself from self important SJW lieberal bad actors and bad directors and endless after endless or rehashes or sequels prequels and comic book movies

[technoblue]

4 hours ago, myk said:

Love my AvP 2010.  And you guys are cruel; Covenant wasn't THAT bad.  It failed to capture the spirit or the effect of "Alien," but other than that Covenenat stands as its own uh...monster movie...

You make a good point, myk. I decided to watch Prometheus today and it wasn't half bad.  In fact, I enjoyed it. There was more mythology intertwined into the story, as other members have noted, and that is different from the sci-fi horror that was Alien. The dopey characters didn't bother me as much while watching on the small screen. I had an easier time getting into it all, and I do enjoy how David is characterized in Prometheus with more of a subtle bent to his darker machinations.

Anyway, I guess that means I'll be picking up Covenant on blu-ray to give it the same second chance. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by technoblue

[myk]

I dunno, maybe I'm too much of an Ailen fanboi for anything of that franchise to be wrong in my eyes.  I contend that almost 30 years after the original Alien, we as fans of the sci-fi/horror genre have come to have high expectations, especially since we've seen and heard it all.  I will be buying Covenant on blu ray as well...

[UN Spacy]

I'd rather Neil Blomkamp have the franchise than what Ridley's recently done to it.

[TangledThorns]

6 hours ago, UN Spacy said:

I'd rather Neil Blomkamp have the franchise than what Ridley's recently done to it.

Social justice for xenomorphs and artificial persons!

[slaginpit]

3 hours ago, TangledThorns said:

Social justice for xenomorphs and artificial persons!

lol

[slaginpit]

 

[Seto Kaiba]

19 hours ago, slaginpit said:

Thankfully, I did not have to pay for this garbage. And why would anyone. Bollywood has be reprinting the same ol garbage and then feeding you trailers.

You keep using that word, and it's fairly evident you don't know what it means...

 

 

9 hours ago, UN Spacy said:

I'd rather Neil Blomkamp have the franchise than what Ridley's recently done to it.

Let's not get crazy...

As with Prometheus, Alien: Covenant is practically "They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot: the Movie" several times over.  It sucks that we'll have to wait until the home video release to get our hands on the commentary to find out how many cooks were involved in spoiling this particular batch of horrifying xenobiological broth.  We have to ask if the producers screwed the pooch all on their own or if they had help from the studio executives who wanted a nice, safe action/splatter flick ala Aliens instead of the colossal lore dump that Ridley Scott was clearly hoping to put out and gotten blocked on twice now.  (Maybe they need to give James Cameron a call...)

 

[Graham]

14 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

 (Maybe they need to give James Cameron a call...)

 

 

Unfortunately, he's gonna be busy for the foreseeable future making 4 Avatar sequels that nobody asked for or wants 

[Big s]

Saw covenant this weekend and I liked it. The scares we're not very scary, but I liked the non horror stuff. I liked a lot of the ideas. The fact that the colonists were all couples was an interesting and oddly unused idea in most sci fi. I do think there was room for improvement. The action was also a bit silly at times, but things like the way the androids behaved were also interesting in that they were so different in behavior.

[myk]

I thought the Neomorphs were cute...

[TangledThorns]

We all knew Prometheus had a lot of religious references but I didn't know there was this many. 

 

[Thom]

I will preface this by saying that I have not seen this movie, and I barely saw Prometheus.

'Why I Am Glad I Saved Money By Not Seeing This Film."

Spoilers... Duh...

 

Spoiler

No hope. Ever since Alien 3, this has been the theme that has been running in the background of the franchise.

At the end of Alien, Ripley survived. Yes, just one, but that is what we all were hoping for. Someone to live passed the ending and continue their journey. A winner. At the end of Aliens, we had four survivors, Ripley, Newt, Hicks and Bishop. Things were looking up as the survivor count went up, and I was hopeful for the next movie to continue their story. Then we got Alien 3...

Nope. All dead. At the end of the movie, even Ripley died upon a fiery sacrificial alter. I was really hoping they would do 4 as explaining 3 was a nightmare suffered by Ripley while in cold sleep, but no go.

At the end of Alien Four (Prometheus) we were once again back to the single survivor scenario, plus David. They were off to find the Engineer homeworld, and even seeing the teaser of them arriving lent a sense of hope that Shaw survived and they were going to continue the story. Nope. David, in true Alien-android form, went loko and killed Shaw and all the Engineers and experimented with their corpses...

Yeah..?

So on comes Alien 5 (Covenant,) and by now we are familiar with the trope. Again, I did not see it, but I read the synopses on Wiiki. So, now the generic crew does something stupid, meets alien, does something stupid again, there's some hope tossed in - and it is ripped away at the end. What, that wasn't Walter putting them into cryo-sleep but the psycho David who is now in control of Covenant, and they are all going to die!?

Shocker?

No. The Alien Franchise has embraced the trope of Empty Hope and seems to enjoy toying with us, the audience, by showing the struggle and taking away any victory right at the end.

I don't enjoy that. I don't find it entertaining in the least. Sure, at the end of a couple, we see the protagonist continue on, but by now we know it will be a dead end. They will all die and in gruesome ways and we (or maybe it is just myself) are left with disappointment because, that's all it was about. 

Maybe that is why the franchise always seems to be teetering. At the end of Aliens we were given hope. That despite all they had gone through, their struggle was worthwhile and they lived passed the end. Aliens 3 killed that just as completely as it killed our main protagonists and tent-pole (no real pun intended) of the series.

I think, if there is a next movie, they should bring real hope back and let us cheer for people we connect with and believe in without fear of them gleefully yanking out the rug...

Maybe that is just me, but that's why I won't pay to see anymore Alien movies. All they've become are just diatribes on empty hope.

 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Thom

[captain america]

4 hours ago, TangledThorns said:

We all knew Prometheus had a lot of religious references but I didn't know there was this many. 

 

You're just beginning to scratch the surface.

In fact, I find it comical that people dislike Prometheus so much, yet love Blade Runner when the two have the same basic theme: A lower created being, imbued with greater than average abilities (Roy Batty: stronger, more resilient than any human--Peter Weyland: ultra-successful business tycoon) being confronted with the prospect of its own mortality, seeks-out its creator (Elden Tyrrell/The Engineers) in an attempt to cheat death and become God-like without necessarily being worthy of the mantle... An attempt doomed to failure!

You see this same theme again with some variance in Raiders of the Lost Ark, as well as Rebuild of Evangelion 3.33 and it's not coincidental. They simply all draw on the teachings conveyed in the Royal Arch degree of Freemasonry, upon wehich all these fictitious stories are founded.

In fact, I can tell you that pretty much every big-budget sci-fi/fantasy film has/does incorporate significant esoteric teachings and symbolism, this just happens to be one film that was more easily decoded.

[Seto Kaiba]

11 hours ago, Graham said:

Unfortunately, he's gonna be busy for the foreseeable future making 4 Avatar sequels that nobody asked for or wants 

Now that's a shame and a waste.

 

 

6 hours ago, myk said:

I thought the Neomorphs were cute...

Ladies and gentlemen, Professor Rubeus Hagrid...

The thing the Neomorph reminded me of most was, honestly, those creepy hairless cats that look like an ambulatory scrotum.

 

 

5 minutes ago, captain america said:

You see this same theme again with some variance in Raiders of the Lost Ark, as well as Rebuild of Evangelion 3.33 and it's not coincidental. They simply all draw on the teachings conveyed in the Royal Arch degree of Freemasonry, upon wehich all these fictitious stories are founded.

IIRC, didn't Evangelion's creators explicitly refute that... saying that the alleged religious symbolism was pure BS, and they'd just thrown Christian religious references in there because it's a minority religion in Japan and sounds exotic as a result.

[anime52k8]

11 hours ago, Graham said:

 

Unfortunately, he's gonna be busy for the foreseeable future making 4 Avatar sequels that nobody asked for or wants 

I mean, a lot of people asked for and wanted Avatar sequels like 8 years ago when the first one came out.

 

29 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Now that's a shame and a waste. 

2.8 Billion dollar unadjusted gross says otherwise. 

[captain america]

29 minutes ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Now that's a shame and a waste.

 

 

Ladies and gentlemen, Professor Rubeus Hagrid...

The thing the Neomorph reminded me of most was, honestly, those creepy hairless cats that look like an ambulatory scrotum.

 

 

IIRC, didn't Evangelion's creators explicitly refute that... saying that the alleged religious symbolism was pure BS, and they'd just thrown Christian religious references in there because it's a minority religion in Japan and sounds exotic as a result.

Technically correct in that the symbolism is not explicitly Christian, nor reigious. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. are exoteric and faith-based, not to be confused with the esoteric teachings (Gnosticism, Kabbalah, Sufism, etc.) which are practical and not faith-based.

[anime52k8]

1 hour ago, captain america said:

You're just beginning to scratch the surface.

In fact, I find it comical that people dislike Prometheus so much, yet love Blade Runner when the two have the same basic theme: A lower created being, imbued with greater than average abilities (Roy Batty: stronger, more resilient than any human--Peter Weyland: ultra-successful business tycoon) being confronted with the prospect of its own mortality, seeks-out its creator (Elden Tyrrell/The Engineers) in an attempt to cheat death and become God-like without necessarily being worthy of the mantle... An attempt doomed to failure!

The difference is that blade runner builds an entire coherent film with interesting, well developed characters out of that theme; whereas Prometheus just throws it in as a sub plot two thirds of the way through the film for no other reason than to derail the flow of the movie up to that point.

Edited May 31, 2017 by anime52k8

[TangledThorns]

ALIEN, ALIENS and Alien3 is on IFC today and it was a scene like this that reminded me why ALIEN was so great and there was no ALIEN in this scene either. Outside Fasbender's scenes this kind of intense dialogue was lacking in Covenant.

Though I still think Covenant may be a better film after a repeat viewing.

 

 

 

 

[myk]

That level of intensity brought about by competent acting and a gripping story  is absent not only in Covenant but most movies today as well.

Still a fan though!

[Seto Kaiba]

7 minutes ago, myk said:

That level of intensity brought about by competent acting and a gripping story  is absent not only in Covenant but most movies today as well.

Still a fan though!

Personally, I'd say Fassbender did a more than competent job as both David and Walter... he really sold that uncanny valley Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? kind of robot, and as David managed to make his obsession with creation genuinely unnerving.  It's not a lack of competent acting or a gripping story that ails Alien: Covenant and its predecessor, it's that the movie just can't decide what kind of story it wants to be and that Western directors really seem to have forgotten how to do suspenseful horror.  

Alien was a great horror film for precisely the same reason Jaws was: because you saw so little of "the monster".  The way the shark and the xenomorph kill in a targeted but indiscriminate manner is scary, yes, but what made it a source of genuine horror was that creeping realization that the characters are trapped there with the unseen monster lurking nearby waiting for its chance to make a snack of someone.  There are two guidelines that Alien sequels keep ignoring that have contributed massively to the "scariness decay" of the franchise:

• The more you see of the monster, the less scary the monster becomes.
• The more monsters there are, the less scary each individual monster becomes.

Alien: Covenant would have been a much scarier, more unsettling film if the xenomorph and neomorph never appeared.  They had a really good plot going with David's hubris and what he did to the Engineers in the name of disappointment and arrogance, and made the horrible mistake of making that psychological horror a B-plot in favor of a mediocre monster splatter flick revolving predominantly around jump scares.  The same problem happened in Prometheus, where they wasted half the film on jump scares and trying to chew over some half-assed Aesop about religion at the expense of a plot about how humanity's creators had decided for their own unknowable reasons to destroy humanity with the most appalling weapons of mass destruction.

[Kanedas Bike]

^Truth.

-b.

[sh9000]

 

[myk]

Sure Mike did a great job acting as he usually does, but the rest of the cast is so lackluster, with their characters so incredibly stupid that the movie becomes silly. 

And I've criticized revealing the xenomorph excessively since alien 4, but I know they won't change that practice because they're going for cheap thrills instead of classic horror...

[sh9000]

 

Edited August 9, 2017 by sh9000

[TehPW]

I don't why I started thinking about this (I blame seeing on my YT feed a random 'cut' of the Space Jockey 12 second scream, which clearly was the moan of the dying SJ and birth scream of the SJ Alien) but I wonder. Why did Director Scott change the SJ from elephant analog to a organic space suit for the humanoid they ultimately went with? Was the reason, possibly, royalizes they might have had to pay to Dark Horse Comics (who clearly went deeper into the elephant man angle in their comics runs of the Alien IP in the 1990's)?

[jenius]

I've been listening to The Expanse books on audiobook and I feel like it's a much better Alien than Alien has been for a long time.

[sketchley]

7 hours ago, TehPW said:

I don't why I started thinking about this (I blame seeing on my YT feed a random 'cut' of the Space Jockey 12 second scream, which clearly was the moan of the dying SJ and birth scream of the SJ Alien) but I wonder. Why did Director Scott change the SJ from elephant analog to a organic space suit for the humanoid they ultimately went with? Was the reason, possibly, royalizes they might have had to pay to Dark Horse Comics (who clearly went deeper into the elephant man angle in their comics runs of the Alien IP in the 1990's)?

I can't comment on all possibilities, but one I grasped from the way the movie is presented is the aspect of the relationship between the creator and what was created.  Throughout the movie, we have David, and his relationship with his human creators that created him.  Specifically how the majority of them treat him terribly.  So, it's no surprise how the humanoid "creator" reacts with disdain to the humans (his race's creation) when they confront him.

I think there's a line in the movie that answers your question (at least in-universe), directed at David when he asks why he was made in the human form:  "to make him easier to interact with".

 

As a creator, I think the human form is much easier for the viewer to emphasize with than an "alien" form.  As a fan of Macross, I'm sure you can appreciate how much more relatable the Zentradi are, as opposed to say the Vajra.    So, there's also that creative reason for the change from an "unhuman elephant man" to an emotionally expressive humanoid.

[Seto Kaiba]

9 hours ago, TehPW said:

I don't why I started thinking about this (I blame seeing on my YT feed a random 'cut' of the Space Jockey 12 second scream, which clearly was the moan of the dying SJ and birth scream of the SJ Alien) but I wonder. Why did Director Scott change the SJ from elephant analog to a organic space suit for the humanoid they ultimately went with?

I think it was mostly in service of the story concept that Scott and Lindelof were developing for Prometheus, which had some very strong pseudo-Christian messianic themes alongside its themes of unwanted pregnancy and so on.  The whole concept probably wouldn't have worked if the engineers weren't a humanoid species.

The concept being developed was that the Engineers were a long-lived, highly evolved species that had lost the ability to reproduce biologically.  They were going to be worshippers of a sort of proto-xenomorph like the Deacon that was born from an Engineer that got a facefull of alien wing-wong, and were using the preserved blood of their proto-xenomorph messiah to seed worlds with life in the hopes of giving rise to an intelligent species like themselves to be their children/successors.  They failed to recreate the proto-xenomorph's mutagenic properties scientifically, but turned their failed experiment into a weapon (the black goo) to destroy those worlds that did not meet their exacting requirements.  Earth was the only "success", but humanity failed to meet expectations due to its inherent violent tendencies and after much consternation and several failed interventions the Engineers decided to just wipe the slate clean with a bombardment and start over until their mission was stalled by a containment breach.  The Engineers were going to be the gods who made humanity in their own image in the biblical style.

A lot of that messianic stuff got left on the cutting room floor, however... but that's probably the reason the Engineers are humanoid now.

 

9 hours ago, TehPW said:

Was the reason, possibly, royalizes they might have had to pay to Dark Horse Comics (who clearly went deeper into the elephant man angle in their comics runs of the Alien IP in the 1990's)?

It's possible, but I doubt that was ever a major consideration given Ridley Scott's chosen direction for the story.

[pengbuzz]

2 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

I think it was mostly in service of the story concept that Scott and Lindelof were developing for Prometheus, which had some very strong pseudo-Christian messianic themes alongside its themes of unwanted pregnancy and so on.  The whole concept probably wouldn't have worked if the engineers weren't a humanoid species.

The concept being developed was that the Engineers were a long-lived, highly evolved species that had lost the ability to reproduce biologically.  They were going to be worshippers of a sort of proto-xenomorph like the Deacon that was born from an Engineer that got a facefull of alien wing-wong, and were using the preserved blood of their proto-xenomorph messiah to seed worlds with life in the hopes of giving rise to an intelligent species like themselves to be their children/successors.  They failed to recreate the proto-xenomorph's mutagenic properties scientifically, but turned their failed experiment into a weapon (the black goo) to destroy those worlds that did not meet their exacting requirements.  Earth was the only "success", but humanity failed to meet expectations due to its inherent violent tendencies and after much consternation and several failed interventions the Engineers decided to just wipe the slate clean with a bombardment and start over until their mission was stalled by a containment breach.  The Engineers were going to be the gods who made humanity in their own image in the biblical style.

A lot of that messianic stuff got left on the cutting room floor, however... but that's probably the reason the Engineers are humanoid now.

It's possible, but I doubt that was ever a major consideration given Ridley Scott's chosen direction for the story.

Hmmm... one thing I would have to say is: if humans had an inherent bent towards violence, would it be fair to say that the bent was from the Engineers' own bent (seeing as it was their DNA that was propigated on the primitive Earth)? And if that is true, then could it be one reason they sought to wipe humanity off the planet is to erase a reminder of their own inherent flaws?

It's conjecture based on your assessment here, admittedly. But how often do we see in stories that those who have lofty expectations often deride their "inferiors" (or children as the case may be in a sense here) and exact harshness on them when they turn out to be a dark, distant mirror of themselves?

[Kanedas Bike]

@Seto Kaiba - that was a pretty interesting read. Asking only for my own edification, was that expressed by the the writers/director or more an an educated opinion of what Ridley was going for with Prometheus?

Either way, I think the concept is interesting enough, just not for an Alien/Aliens movie. I think I remember reading that Prometheus (which was beautifully shot, but filled with the dumbest in-universe characters imaginable) was not originally intended as a prequel for Alien.

-b.

[TangledThorns]

Damon Lindelof is to blame for all the stupid changes. Just had to inject religion into it, the prick.

If you truly desire more ALIEN then play ISOLATION. Still looks and plays great to this day.

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

Hmmm... one thing I would have to say is: if humans had an inherent bent towards violence, would it be fair to say that the bent was from the Engineers' own bent (seeing as it was their DNA that was propigated on the primitive Earth)?

Would it?  The Engineers in that material do seem a bit hypocritical what with their habit of destroying worlds they've engineered if the local flora and fauna don't meet their exacting standards... but couldn't it also be a result of life on Earth being derived from proto-Xenomorph mutagens?  It's not like those critters are friendly, after all.

 

7 hours ago, pengbuzz said:

And if that is true, then could it be one reason they sought to wipe humanity off the planet is to erase a reminder of their own inherent flaws?

It's possible that some reasoning like that lurks under the Last Engineer's (how he was referred to in the script) almost literally Holier Than Thou attitude.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Kanedas Bike said:

@Seto Kaiba - that was a pretty interesting read. Asking only for my own edification, was that expressed by the the writers/director or more an an educated opinion of what Ridley was going for with Prometheus?

A lot of it is drawn from the dialog in released Prometheus scripts that didn't make it into the final film, inscriptions translated in the script that weren't fully translated in the film, and remarks by Ridley Scott regarding the motivations of the Engineers in a podcast he did for one of the major news outlets.  

 

1 hour ago, Kanedas Bike said:

Either way, I think the concept is interesting enough, just not for an Alien/Aliens movie. I think I remember reading that Prometheus (which was beautifully shot, but filled with the dumbest in-universe characters imaginable) was not originally intended as a prequel for Alien.

IIRC, wasn't that kind of the problem?  Wasn't Prometheus originally trying to distance itself from Alien and be its own thing?

[Kanedas Bike]

2 hours ago, TangledThorns said:

Damon Lindelof is to blame for all the stupid changes. Just had to inject religion into it, the prick.

If you truly desire more ALIEN then play ISOLATION. Still looks and plays great to this day.

Might have to check it out, I heard good things but was super pissed about Colonial Marines so I threw a tantrum and swore off all Alien/Aliens related games in a huff.

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

A lot of it is drawn from the dialog in released Prometheus scripts that didn't make it into the final film, inscriptions translated in the script that weren't fully translated in the film, and remarks by Ridley Scott regarding the motivations of the Engineers in a podcast he did for one of the major news outlets.  

IIRC, wasn't that kind of the problem?  Wasn't Prometheus originally trying to distance itself from Alien and be its own thing?

See, that makes me even angrier - because I don't hate the high-level concept, I just hate that there were any ties, however flimsy, to Alien. Just make Prometheus and say "from the old dude that brought you Alien and Blade Runner comes...".

At that point I could have just ragged on the movie for it's idiot characters and how poor writing ruined an interesting concept for a science fiction movie. Instead of bemoaning idiot characters + a piss poor attempt at distancing from, or even being associated with Alien. 

Oh well, spilled (and long since spoiled) milk at this point.

Time to fire up the extended edition of Aliens to wash the taste out of my mouth.

And thank you for the background info Seto, I really do think they had a cool concept.

-b.

[Seto Kaiba]

9 minutes ago, Kanedas Bike said:

Might have to check it out, I heard good things but was super pissed about Colonial Marines so I threw a tantrum and swore off all Alien/Aliens related games in a huff.

Oh, my friend, you are in for a TREAT.  Alien: Isolation is the first Alien story since the original (or Aliens if you're being generous) to make the xenomorph truly TERRIFYING.  It's not that jump scare BS either, it's genuine claustrophobic horror in the true spirit of the original Alien that lovingly recreates the "used future" aesthetic of the first movie as well.

As far as I'm concerned, there are only three titles in the Alien franchise... Alien, Alien: Isolation, and Aliens.  Everything else is just a sad imitation.

 

9 minutes ago, Kanedas Bike said:

See, that makes me even angrier - because I don't hate the high-level concept, I just hate that there were any ties, however flimsy, to Alien. Just make Prometheus and say "from the old dude that brought you Alien and Blade Runner comes...".

At that point I could have just ragged on the movie for it's idiot characters and how poor writing ruined an interesting concept for a science fiction movie. Instead of bemoaning idiot characters + a piss poor attempt at distancing from, or even being associated with Alien. 

Prometheus's high level concept was basically riffing on the book Chariots of the Gods, the wellspring of Ancient Aliens BS that also gave rise to Stargate and a few other pieces of middling science fiction.  They dialed the philosophy and religious references way back in the final version, presumably to avoid driving away an audience who expected to get yet another space monster horror movie from the creator of Alien and not a treatise on man's inhumanity to man delivered by an eight foot tall albino in a cybernetic gimp suit.  (Not that the incredibly anvilicious aesop of "faith makes you stupid" was much better in that regard, given that it was delivered with all the subtlety of a half-brick to the head.)

They really could and should have gone with Prometheus as straight sci-fi with a horror twist.  Making horror the dominant genre in the film pretty much mandated that the entire cast act like suicidal idiots who had no clue how to do the jobs they were allegedly experts in... like the geologist/cartographer who gets lost in a space he just mapped, that field biologist who fails to recognize an obvious threat display, or literally everyone taking off their helmets on an unexplored alien world with who-knows-what in the atmosphere and surface water, never mind the explicitly toxic atmosphere.

Alien: Covenant was just a terrible error, since it tried to bring Prometheus properly into the Alien fold by doubling down on all of its worst plot decisions.