Macross Plus Ending

[Roy Focker]

I've been having major computer problems so I'm way too behind on this topic. I can't keep up. I'm afraid I'm have to surrender to fight another day. I will leave one last comment. I see someone posted a picture of Myung and said, 'is this how you look at your attempted rapist?' No but in that same scene on the Star hill, Myung looks like she about to jump out of her skin when Guld grabbed her by the shoulders and brought her close to him. She seems very afraid. In that scene she's making the right expression. Moments later when Dyson wants to fight Guld Myung between them and her expression is enough to make Dyson to back off.

[Hurin]

Hi Roy. Nice to have you back.

That was me. . .

I thought maybe you'd mention the "jump" moment. I wondered if it was fair to post one and not the other. I even took a screen capture of the "jump" whem Guld grabs her from behind. Because I remembered your comment about it. But, I decided, and I hope you'll agree, that the point of the "loving" glance is still made. And the "jump" can be explained by either a rape, or "just" an assault. The "jump" doesn't necessarily exclude either possibility.

As for her glance at Isamu. My personal interpretation is that, while Myung loves them both, she was actually rejected by Isamu. . . thus Myung's attitude towards him on Star Hill. (I think, though I can't be sure, that this rejection is what was happening as Guld came into the room and "the incident" ocurred seven years prior.) There seems to be some pretty bad blood between Myung and Isamu when they first see each other on Star Hill. They both blatantly play jealousy games. . .while Isamu's new girlfriend and Guld play unfortunate bystanders.

Anyways, here's the shot(s)/sequence you refer to. . .

Best Regards,

Hurin

[Hurin]

Of course, if posting those images is a problem, let me know and I'll edit them out. . . and/or remove them from my site (thus from here).

Thanks!

[Hurin]

Before Isamu shows up, Guld grabs her from behind suddenly and pulls her towards him. Here again, she jumps as he grabs here, but then seems to accept his embrace as he draws her to him. It's difficult to tell. . . whether that is fear in her eyes or just conflicting emotions. . .

Okay, this is the last image. . . I promise. I don't wanna get in any trouble.

This is a composite of two seperate shots:

Edited September 4, 2003 by Hurin

[Roy Focker]

My guess is that Isamu was the first to run away. Myung for what ever reason wanted to protect Guld. Isamu must have thought it was for the best as well but couldn't be near it so he left. After all that a very stressfull situation for a 17 year old.

I doubt he wanted to leave her but he couldn't deal with the situation and ran. Isamu running away when Myung needed him the most just cause more damage. Instead of Myung saying, ' Where were you when I needed you.' She acts like a 'bitch' and Isamu play childish games trying to make her jealous.

[Radd]

Deaths only happen when there is no contingentcy and the YF21 crashes. Severe brain damage could happen probably because flying a plane like the YF21 with the BDI system is too taxing for any regular pilot's attention - too MANY important decisions to make at the same time.

well, i think that's what it was, they stuck a regular pilot in the -21 and he couldnt handle it, but Guld could.

just like with the -19, that thing "killed" 7 pilots before Isamu got ahold of it.

Notice also how the YF21's General Galaxy team was peforming beautifully in the competition until Isamu showed up. Guld was literally on top of things!

He's more sane and mentally able to handle the YF21. It's evident enough that Guld only took the pills later, not prior to being the YF21's test pilot.

That is definitely not the impression I got. The YF-21 controls beautifully as long as the pilot is calm and controlled. Guld often is, it's just that when something sets him off, it really sets him off. And Isamu set him off like nothing else.

It's true, though, we're never given the impression that there were ever any problems with the YF-21 team having crashes. Just the 19 team, due to the 19's maneuverability.

I think Guld really was a calm, collected guy, but he had those restrained Zentradi fighting urges. He could keep them at bay until something really got underneath his skin. He was probably on the pills all that time, and they probably worked for the most part, just not when Guld got enraged by Isamu.

It seems to me that it was the director's intention to give the viewer the feeling that Guld has constantly been on this medication for some time. I mean, you don't run into Isamu, get ticked off, then a day or three later run down to Walmart and pick up some Zentradi Fighting Instinct Suppressors. Even if this is common among human/Zentradi offspring, which it doesn't seem to be.

Of course, we can debate for months, even years, on what we believe, and even give good evidence to back up our reasoning, but in the end we just won't know. None of us can state that we know what happened for a fact, unless we sat down with Kawamori for some Apple Genki and a round of Smash Brothers over the weekend.

[Beware of Blast]

That is definitely not the impression I got. The YF-21 controls beautifully as long as the pilot is calm and controlled. Guld often is, it's just that when something sets him off, it really sets him off. And Isamu set him off like nothing else.

It's true, though, we're never given the impression that there were ever any problems with the YF-21 team having crashes. Just the 19 team, due to the 19's maneuverability.

I think Guld really was a calm, collected guy, but he had those restrained Zentradi fighting urges. He could keep them at bay until something really got underneath his skin. He was probably on the pills all that time, and they probably worked for the most part, just not when Guld got enraged by Isamu.

It seems to me that it was the director's intention to give the viewer the feeling that Guld has constantly been on this medication for some time. I mean, you don't run into Isamu, get ticked off, then a day or three later run down to Walmart and pick up some Zentradi Fighting Instinct Suppressors. Even if this is common among human/Zentradi offspring, which it doesn't seem to be.

I understand.

Anyway, I've always felt that the pills Guld took was similar to the kind that patients with heart ailments take - usually nearing, or at chronic stages of heart attacks; as oppose to the type of drug that military snipers take to prevent involuntary muscle movements.

I agree that the YF21 have never had any incident unlike the YF19... with that note, as the designer of the YF21, Guld couldn't have overlooked the shortcomings that one would have to depend on drugs just to pilot an advanced aircraft - It's just not feasible as far as producing new technologies are concerned. I say this because Macross do give some degree of realism and belivability for a sci-fi anime.

Hindsight maybe a beautiful thing to have, but people generally try their best to find a cure but not make any new disease in the process.

To put it simply (IMO), The YF21 is already a very taxing plane to fly. I don't think Guld would want to make it worse by allowing future pilots who fly the VF21s to acquire mental problems and be dependent on drugs.

Unlike the YF19, the BDI system for the YF21 is actually making it easier for pilots to fly because, the steps that it takes from making decisions to flipping switches, has now been reduced to mere thought. If anyone should take the pills, it should be the YF19 test pilots!

So as far as Guld is concerned, even for his proness to Zentran-rage, I really doubt he needs the pills for his job as YF21's test pilot. He only started taking the pills when Isamu showed up. It's because of their dark history, his rage got out of hand.

Don't forget, the Supernova project is at stake here as well. It seems to me, he'd rather die than lose this business pitch to Isamu's team.

That's why he take the pills. He also took the pills to suppress rage because he KNOWS of the BDI system's inability to respond to rage as a coherrent instruction.

It's also because he couldn't pop the pills to his mouth during flight-rage, due to his full-face helmet.

Just imagine, had Guld's rage not gotten worse to the extend that he lost total control, the BDI system would be flawless. The only bug the BDI system seem to have is no contingentcy plan or reaction, in case the pilot is stumped. And Guld is not just momentarily stumped... he SIMPLY COULDN'T re-act, nor regain his thoughts as quickly as any pilot should.

That's why like patients with heart ailments, he needed the pills.

Of course, we can debate for months, even years, on what we believe, and even give good evidence to back up our reasoning, but in the end we just won't know. None of us can state that we know what happened for a fact, unless we sat down with Kawamori for some Apple Genki and a round of Smash Brothers over the weekend.

You're nuts. God will NEVER take us as his drinking buddies!

[Hurin]

I mean, you don't run into Isamu, get ticked off, then a day or three later run down to Walmart and pick up some Zentradi Fighting Instinct Suppressors.

Just one quick point: For all we know, those pills might have been nothing more than valuum or other normal Macross-era "downer" equivalent to calm his nerves. The doctor says that "somehow" he is controlling the violent impulses. But that "somehow" doesn't necessarily mean he's using strange or rare medications.

If I was known to have a knee injury, but continued to play basketball on it. Yet I didn't tell my doctor how I was able to do so. . . he might say: "Hurin has somehow managed the pain in his knee." I'm sure he wouldn't be thinking of some futuristic pill or surgery. For all he knows it could be anything from yoga stretches to a new knee brace or a ton of Advil.

Just nit-picky point. But one worth making, I think.

H

[madmacks]

(peaks into thread)

i dont think guld really boned down with myung. it just doesnt seem right for her to do that. i bet he got to third base and was thrown out trying to steal home. he was deceptively inferring he did the nasty slappy when talking to isamu to make him jealous...

(runs out of thread)

Edited September 6, 2003 by madmacks

[Beware of Blast]

(peaks into thread)

i dont think guld really boned down with myung. it just doesnt seem right for her to do that. i bet he got to third base and was thrown out trying to steal home. he was deceptively inferring he did the nasty slappy when talking to isamu to make him jealous... 

(runs out of thread)

Hey maybe they didn't after all.

Everybody now!

...Sometimes joo kick

Sometimes joo get kicked

Sometimes joo kick

Sometimes joo get kicked...

Edited September 6, 2003 by Beware of Blast

[Prime]

i dont think guld really boned down with myung. it just doesnt seem right for her to do that. i bet he got to third base and was thrown out trying to steal home. he was deceptively inferring he did the nasty slappy when talking to isamu to make him jealous...

I suppose that he must have gotten somewhere, since he seems to assume to some extent that they will get together. IIRC, when she is leaving for Earth he says he will meet her there, not to mention that he comes right out and says he wants to be with her. To me that seams to suggest that they "hooked up" to some degree.

So even though he might not have "got laid", there must have been enough to give him the impression that she was interested.

Myung! You tease!

[Rand]

What's so hard to understand?

1. Isamu, and Guld competed for Myung's affection when they were young.

2. Guld loves Myung, even when they were young, but ha a bit of insecurity problem (sometimes, he felt like Isamu and Myung were his friends only because they feel sorry for the Zentraedi kid). He has a big problem controlling his temper. So much so that he had to take drugs to control himself.

3. When he saw Isamu and Myung together, he flew into a jealous blind rage. His rage is focused primarily on Myung, because he thought she chose Isamu over him (notice that Guld didn't beat Isamu into a pulp. He just knocked out Isamu and turned to Myung).

4. Almost crazy with rage, he tore Myung's shirt, wanting to inflict as much pain as he was feeling by raping her.

5. But when he looked at the mirror, he saw himself, about to hurt the love of his life. Remember, Guld is suppose to be the straight-lace dude of the bunch. That's a shock enough to stop anybody. Then Guld probably screamed and ran out.

I don't think Guld believed that Isamu raped Myung, only hurt her. If you believe someone you love was raped by someone, would you just looked at him coldly next time you see him?

Another evidence for Guld NOT raping Myung is that, would Isamu stand for being accused as a rapist? Even if Guld managed to control his temper, if he belived Isamu as a rapist, why didn't he go to the authorities? They could have at least mention something about a rape investigation in Isamu's past, to give the "rape scenario" some credit.

Isamu and Myung knew the truth, and because they still love Guld, (maybe they knew his rage problem) they just allowed Guld to have his delusion (Isamu not saying anything).

And Myung never feared Guld. When she woke up after being rescued from the theater fire, she was only wearing her underwear yet she never hesitated on applying first aid on Guld. Would a rape victim be comfortable in her under around a half-naked rapist? I think not.

And finally, when Isamu and Guld where finally reconciled, Guld said something like, "You both knew the truth, yet you hid it from me," and Isamu casually replied that they just forget about it. Then they laughed together! I don't know much about Japanese culture, but I would think that rape is not something they just forget casually. "Oh, remember the time you raped our best friend? Ha Ha ha!" Not very realistic, huh?

You guys look for symbolisms when there is not. Ripped shirts don't necessarily symbolizes rape. Heck, I've had my shirts ripped sometimes on fights, yet I don't think the guy I fought wanted to rape me.

[Hurin]

Uh, I think we covered all that. . . extensively. . .

This is one of those threads that you come back to later and wonder just why the hell you spent so much time with it. . .

Yikes. I musta been bored. . .

H

[JB0]

GULD RAPED ISAMU!

[SkullLeaderVF-X]

GULD RAPED ISAMU!

:huh:

Edited September 21, 2003 by SkullLeaderVF-X

[Hurin]

HAM SANDWICH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zentrandude]

Wow i forgot was the intent of this post. oh ya. I wanted Sharon to own both valks and enslave the ppl of earth to music. or at very least kill that nerdy kid thats the designer of the 19, i never liked that char.

about the rape thing, i wouldnt think too much about taking Guld's flashback as fact, be like trusting a liar. Given time if he lived he would get flashbacks ripping the cloths off his yf-21. He being so mental he proly would block memories of him forgetting to brush his teeth in the morning then warp it that isamu did something horribly wrong.

Edit. forgot to add kill

Edited September 21, 2003 by Zentrandude

[ewilen]

I finally got around to watching Macross Plus (so far just the OVA's plus part of the movie ending), so I took a look at this thread, and I have to say the comments here have been very helpful and thought-provoking. I side with Hurin, JsArclight, Keith, and others about the rape question (no rape, I say), and the majority about the ending (having Isamu die would be bad).

I'd like to share a few thoughts in response to what has been posted.

First, about Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, in spite of what we seem to see at the end of the movie, my wife has informed me that the Zhang Ziyi character does not commit suicide in the original series of novels on which the story is based. Of course, the movie makers may have decided to imply otherwise in their version of the story, or to be intentionally ambiguous.

Back to Macross. I see Guld as very much a tragic hero in the Shakespearean mold. I'd even go so far as to compare him to Othello, except that I haven't read or seen the play. I think his pill-popping near the beginning of the story is meant to foreshadow his tragic flaw, which is gradually revealed through the plot. Guld isn't merely someone who tends to "fly off the handle"; he is also tragically blind to his flaw due to a psychological defect that makes him see his rageful actions as if they're being carried out by something external to his consciousness. At first, this can be dismissed as a malfunction in the BCS--Guld merely thinks about what would happen if he exerted downward pressure on the YF-19; he doesn't consciously intend to send the mental command to do so, but his subconscious makes the YF-21 wreck Isamu's plane. Later, Guld turns off the BCS but he uses the manual controls to grab a gunpod loaded with live ammo and sends Isamu to the hospital. (Are there ever any clues to how the gunpod got the wrong load other than the speculation at the inquest?) I believe that Guld honestly thinks both incidents are accidents.

Something similar happened in the incident that broke up the friendship. Myung loved Guld, but she loved Isamu more. Both of them loved Myung, at least in some sense--they'd both promised to always protect her. Whatever was going on between Isamu and Myung when Guld burst in on them, I have two theories about Guld's reaction:

(1) Guld already had the psychological disorder (perhaps due to some earlier trauma) and the shock of seeing Myung and Isamu together sent him into an "episode". When he was shocked into consciousness by seeing himself in the mirror, his only way of interpreting what he saw was to blame it on an external subject, in this case Isamu.

(2) Guld may have had some emotional problems, but he didn't yet have the disorder. When he saw Myung and Isamu, however, he flew into a jealous rage and attacked both of them. Seeing himself in the mirror, he realized the horror of what he was doing and stopped. At that moment or some time later, unable to deal with the feelings of guilt and jealousy, he became unhinged and developed his disorder as a way of coping. In other words, he dissociated his "bad" emotions and behaviors from his consciousness and blamed them on an external subject. A split was thus triggered in his psyche, whereby his rage could act independently of his conscious intent.

I like the second theory better. Although I do remember Isamu saying to Guld at one point that he always goes too far (or something like that), implying that Guld had always had a temper problem. But I could be forgetting--possibly Guld says that to Isamu, in which case he's probably projecting his own flaws onto Isamu. (I'm thinking of the scene where they have a fistfight after Isamu comes back from that motorcycle ride in the third episode.)

What probably happened afterward was that either Myung or Isamu or both decided that they shouldn't be together, because of the effect that seeing them had on Guld. It's not clear how well they understood their friend's problem and his self-deception. Guld may have simply stopped talking to them and only vaguely asserted that Isamu was at fault, and the other two may have preferred not to push the point. Over time, Guld constructed an image of himself as Myung's protector and saw Isamu as a traitor. And in fact he does act quite heroically to save Myung, including giving his life after his tragic flaw is fully revealed to him and to the audience. (In Greek tragedy this realization is called anagnorisis and it generally precedes the death of the tragic hero.)

As for why/whether Myung sleeps with Guld. I think it's likely that she does. And I think that what was going on was that Myung has felt guilty all those years, because she loves both guys and doesn't want to choose between them, but she likes Isamu more. Also, she may have felt (all along) that Guld needs her more. So she can't admit to herself that she wants to be with Isamu, she probably feels partly at fault for the breakup of the friendship, and in her guilt/denial she thinks she wants to be with Guld (at least for that night). It's only when Sharon tells Myung that she's inherited Myung's preference for Isamu that Myung admits/realizes the truth.

I really think this is a remarkable story. Even more than the original TV series, it's far more than a giant robot show dressed up with a nifty plot line; it's more like a social/psychological drama with science fiction elements reminiscent of Lem, and some nifty mecha and flight scenes thrown in.

[imode]

Ahhh, the behemoth resurrected!

[Hurin]

Lord, I hope not. . .

[ewilen]

Sorry. I had some questions about the show, this thread had the most answers, and I figured it was also the best place to add my comments...

[Mr March]

Wow, this is a monster! If I get a chance, I'll post my thoughts later tonight. Gotta go pick up my Nausicaa DVD set from the courier right now

[Hurin]

Sorry. I had some questions about the show, this thread had the most answers, and I figured it was also the best place to add my comments...

Hehe, of course, we're all just kidding. We only say that because this thread was quite exhausting when it was in its prime. . . and I think we all heaved a sigh of relief when it finally peetered out. I know I did.

But, actually, your thoughts are always appreciated.

Everyone should always feel free to post away! But, I for one am going to try mightily to not get sucked back into this debate.

H