Macross Plus Ending

[Gokurakumaru]

If I may paraphrase Sharon "I love Guld, but I love Isamu more."

And as for this...

However, you are only half correct. I say this because there are equally many cases of incest, date rape and what not, happening in the world.

Date rape isn't all forced, especially in Japan. People have a hard time saying no over there, or at least about saying it enough times that a guy will actually stop.

I used to live with a girl who went to Japan and stayed with another girl over there. One night they went to a club with some guys and one of those guys stayed over. My girl had to stop the guy for the other girl because she wasn't into it but didn't want to stand up to him about it. Yep, she'd have slept with him rather than hurt his feelings.

So it just doesn't make sense for them to end up making love - a collaborative act between a couple who feels mutually for one another.

Even if there is no love, only lust, the feeling MUST be mutual in order for a one night stand to happen. I seriously doubt Myung would have any lust for Guld. Not with what transpired in the past.

You've got some funny ideas about sex. Love and lust aren't the only reasons people sleep with each other. It's not like Myung slept with Guld because she was horny after almost dying.

[Beware of Blast]

That's the thing JsARCLIGHT! Misinterpreting messages sent out by the opposite sex.

That's why I still don't get it - why Myung would sleep with him after that fire rescue. Of all people, she's certainly the type with some inhibitions, as demonstrated by her complex and "troubled" character. She couldn't have just move on and then accepts Guld later in live, while still heavily longing for Isamu.

To most people, a past misdeed forgiven doesn't mean a past misdeed forgotten.

[Beware of Blast]

If I may paraphrase Sharon "I love Guld, but I love Isamu more."

That is obviously a different kind of love.

Date rape isn't all forced, especially in Japan. People have a hard time saying no over there, or at least about saying it enough times that a guy will actually stop.

I used to live with a girl who went to Japan and stayed with another girl over there. One night they went to a club with some guys and one of those guys stayed over. My girl had to stop the guy for the other girl because she wasn't into it but didn't want to stand up to him about it. Yep, she'd have slept with him rather than hurt his feelings.

Yes, and she'd have to live with that regret like Myung for the rest of her life. It's quite simple if you look at it as a bystander - Why do it if she don't want to? However, there is obviously some over-complicated issue with that girl and that guy, just like Guld and Myung.

But, why do it if the inevitable is going to be negative?

You've got some funny ideas about sex. Love and lust aren't the only reasons people sleep with each other. It's not like Myung slept with Guld because she was horny after almost dying.

Well, my ideas are not funny, but they do resonate with most sensible couples.

What's funny is, for a moment, it DID occur to me that at the spur of the moment, Myung is all up in arms about her whole, "who to pick?" situation, and simply give in to Guld despite the fact that the feeling is mostly one-sided. Mostly due to the fact that Guld is readily available to her, and Isamu is not.

Myung is one confused, not to mention stupid gal.

Edit:- Btw, I didn't imply that date rape is always forced. I listed it together with the other offences so you might have misunderstood.

Edited again!:- ARGH! I suck! WTF is wrong with me?! If date rape is not forced, why is 'rape' written after 'date'? Isn't it obvious, one party is certainly NOT very willing to participate in the sex!!! No matter how subtle or unclear the rejection is. Hell, if I have to coax my wife into sex (with her 'headache' and all) that's also rape!

Edited August 30, 2003 by Beware of Blast

[JB0]

If I may paraphrase Sharon "I love Guld, but I love Isamu more."

That is obviously a different kind of love.

That's open to debate, but I believe it was the same kind.

It wasn't that she didn't feel "that way" about Guld, but she prefered Isamu.

But Isamu refused to grow up, and he wasn't available anyways(having just entered into a relationship with Lucy).

So she settled for Guld, who was both more mature and open.

[Beware of Blast]

What Myung felt from Isamu is clearly a pent-up infatuation gone awry. So much so that obssesion for him manifested in Sharon. It's that burning fire in her bussom and loins magnified to digital infinite possibilities I tell you!!

What Myung felt from Guld is only security. Vague kind of love isn't it? She can get it from her family (if her family's still around) or close friends if not from Guld.

That security feeling is also what Myung wants badly from Isamu and it drives her mad and into despair that she couldn't get it from him, but from another man she don't love so much... so much so that this disappointment manifested in Sharon ten-fold, to the point that she'd kill him for it. All while Myung herself would pathetically settles for Guld. Muahahaha!

Myung needs Guld = Like a fish needs a bicycle.

Edited August 30, 2003 by Beware of Blast

[JB0]

What Myung felt from Isamu is clearly a pent-up infatuation gone awry. So much so that obssesion for him manifested in Sharon. It's that burning fire in her bussom and loins magnified to digital infinite possibilities I tell you!!

So THAT'S why holodecks are so popular on Star Trek.

[Uxi]

BoB, you're ignoring the fact that until Guld's "flashback" or vision or whatever (I definately got the "flashback" impression), almost all we saw was that Guld was the responsible one. He was by the book. He dotted every "i" and crossed every "t". He was considerate to Myung. He was protective of her. He seemed to truly care for her.

Isamu, on the other head, was aggressively unorthodox. Rude. Inconsiderate. In his professional life. In his private life. With Myung.

Yes, we know Guld has... issues... with being half Zent, but until the flashback we're left to wonder at what ripped apart the friendship the 3 of them had... and signs seem to point to Isamu being the culprit, especially given his "current' (at the time) behavior. Given this, Guld appears the better match for Myung... until we learn that it was GULD all along who was the problem and had a mean skeleton in the closet.

[Jemstone]

Why is the term 'symbolism' so hard to believe. Guld's memory is basically dream sequence. Look at the coloring of the animation and the speed of the footage (Looks like there's less cells) it's not meant to be a flash back of exact events but what currently happing in Guld's mind. The facts can still be fuzzy in Guld's memory. The mind may still be trying to protect itself. Guld doesn't need to see himself going further. The mirror could be a creation of his mind just confirming that was he doing the 'deed.' Mirrors have to be one of the most common clich'ed symbols.

Next you people will be saying Hikaru really did have a magic bike.

Roy, I am going to say this to you once. Women do not have consentual sex with men who raped them. PERIOD! I don't know how you view Myung or even the entire female gender for that matter.... but there's now ay Myung would have any feelings left at all for Guld ahd he raped her. Just the same how Isamu would have most likely killed Guld that same night.

[Roy Focker]

We are talking about a fictional story where the rules of 'people would never do that in real life so, couldn't happen here either' don't always apply. The whole memory is coming from a man with a fragile mind in the form of disurbing dream like sequence.

Even if we take the events as they were shown as the real events, Myung is still sleeping with someone who at least attempted to rape her. Even if he only attacked her and ripped her shirt that is still an attempt at very violent crime and shouldn't be excusable action either.

I think Isamu would to beat the crap out of Guld even just for an attempt but apparently he and Myung decided to protect Guld. In the rules of real life they would notice that Guld needs some mental help after that event but instead they try sweep it under the rug. All three of those characters back in the day had emotional issues but kept each other functional together. I don't think any one of them was using reason or the rules of real life. Instead of getting Guld help when he snapped they just decide to hide it from him. That act of concealing it turn them all disfunctional to a point where none of them were hardly following the rules of real life.

[Beware of Blast]

We all know that Guld love and worships Myung, way too much that he became obssesed with her. That's what drove him to his attempt to rape her, when he discovered that his affections yield nothing to what Myung felt for Isamu. That much is clear.

And yet, I STILL don't get why Myung would sleep with Guld later in life. Also, I know nothing about women's complex mentality...

So I've discussed with my wife and several female colleagues, about Myung's case and none of them thinks Myung was in her right mind when she sleeps with Guld after that fire rescue.

They seem to think that, even though there is a possibility Myung did "love" Guld:-

- The feeling is not that of a "lovers" love. Myung felt this with Isamu. They also explain me that they don't really take the "mature" and "security feeling" from men too seriously. It's because to them, men often change after they've had their way with them.

- Because Guld tried to rape her. To the women I spoke to, had this incident ever happen to them, they will NEVER consider Guld a friend anymore. So sleeping with that kind of person later in life, no matter how close they used to be, is impossible.

- They seem to think that this particular incident in the Macross Plus story, where Myung slept with Guld after the fire rescue is B.S. and badly written. Either that, or Myung is "fraked-up in the head" (two female colleagues seem to repeat that alot)

I'm still not convinced by their repliess though... Not because I don't agree with them, it's because to me, Kawamori and gang would never arbitrarily produce something without substance and research. So I really believe I'm missing something here.

Can anyone help me?

Singin' in rain... Just Singin' in rain

[maxjenius81]

Perhaps its because we are taking a western view, maybe what we need is a more eastern view as this isnt an american movie, but a japanese movie.

[Jemstone]

We are talking about a fictional story where the rules of 'people would never do that in real life so, couldn't happen here either' don't always apply.  The whole memory is coming from a man with a fragile mind in the form of disurbing dream like sequence.

Even if we take the events as they were shown as the real events, Myung is still sleeping with someone who at least attempted to rape her.  Even if he only attacked her and ripped her shirt that is still an attempt at very violent crime and shouldn't be excusable action either.

I think Isamu would to beat the crap out of Guld even just for an attempt but apparently he and Myung decided to protect Guld.  In the rules of real life they would notice that Guld needs some mental help after that event but instead they try sweep it under the rug.  All three of those characters back in the day had emotional issues but kept each other functional together.  I don't think any one of them was using reason or the rules of real life.  Instead of getting Guld help when he snapped they just decide to hide it from him.  That act of concealing it turn them all disfunctional to a point where none of them were hardly following the rules of real life.

You are forgetting oen thing. In real life nobody knows the reasons otehr than the attacker of why it occurred. However, being that this is an animated story we are told that it's because he is half Zentraedi and cannot control himself completely. It is that reason their tightly knit friendship was broken up. What Guld did was terrible but not enough for Myung to overlook that A. he's half Zent and B. he's a close friend. Still, if he ahd gone far enough to do the deed even for 2 second she would NOT want to be around him at all and neither would Isamu. You cannot even protect a friend with things have gone that far. To suggest Kawamori and the animators would allow Myung to even want to be in bed with him had he raped her is a serious insult to Kawamori's writing and to women. The comparison to M7 was already made so Kawamori's treatment of it was already explained well enough.

There is no such thing as "hiding" rape. No matter how mucha victim tries to forget and act like it never happened it's always there. I am also not going by the stories and cliches you see in movies and on TV everyday. You have NO idea what it can do to people. I know and it's why I relunctantly gave up my gun license years ago after a "friend" attempted to rape me. Afterwards became a supporter of RAINN . I used to deal with rape victims on a weekly basis, know the statistics and what happens to most women when they are raped and they really cope with it. Macross Plus is not that and it would be a tremendous slap in the face to the female gender as a whole if it even tried to depict Myung as a victim of rape. I would certainly not be a fan of Macross Plus.

Macross Plus certainly does not go into that realm of the aftermath of a rape no matter the genetics of Guld. It only touches the issue just a bit as it was very much an attempted rape but not a rape itself. Myung is messed up but not so messed up she'd sleep with a rapist even if she did love him (but yet again it's clear she loves Isamu more). They are disfunctional as a group because of what Guld did, the fact he's in denial, and being his friend they don't want to hurt him. Had it been rape they would not at all want to forget but face it head on. Then there would be no way Guld would have denied it for so long as we would not have a story to begin with. What happened was assault sexual in nature but not rape. For anyone to believe it was rape then must secretly want it to be, suggest Kawamori and friends are disrespectful and insensitive crackpot story writers AND/or that Macross Plus does not deserev the "deep praise" it has and this thread shouldn't exist.

I am actually very disgusted how you people could even suggest such a dispicable act and dismiss it's serious and very real consequences just because Myung slept with him afterwards. (which is enough proof that he never did the evil deed tho he came close to). That's a crock and I suggest you get educated before you even come up with BS like that again.

edit: A Japanese view would be HARSHER than the western view as rape is the ultimate shame for a woman and ultimate dishonor for a man.

Edited August 30, 2003 by Jemstone

[Jemstone]

Oh and Isamu dying would be REALLY idiotic and detrimental to the overall story as explained by others.

[Beware of Blast]

Perhaps its because we are taking a western view, maybe what we need is a more eastern view as this isnt an american movie, but a japanese movie.

I'm not from the west. Neither are the women I spoke to. So our views 'can' be considered very eastern.

[maxjenius81]

I stand corrected

[JsARCLIGHT]

A Japanese view would be HARSHER than the western view as rape is the ultimate shame for a woman and ultimate dishonor for a man.

That's been in the back of my mind the whole time. Every now and then the Japanese write very "american" flavored stories but their sense of honor and values are usually infused into them... Macross Plus in my mind is a very "japanese" story. I this point made by Jem should be the cornerstone of this argument.

[Jemstone]

A Japanese view would be HARSHER than the western view as rape is the ultimate shame for a woman and ultimate dishonor for a man.

That's been in the back of my mind the whole time. Every now and then the Japanese write very "american" flavored stories but their sense of honor and values are usually infused into them... Macross Plus in my mind is a very "japanese" story. I this point made by Jem should be the cornerstone of this argument.

These values are inbedded in Macross Plus. It's why Guld wanted to kill Isamu so much. The only misinterpretation in all of this is not how far Guld went but how far Guld believed Isamu went. There's enough to prove Guld did not get very far at all or Isamu nor Myung would have ever forgave him.

EDIT: Very Special Kudos for Beware of Blast, JsARCLIGHT, Hurin, thedarkmarine, and anyone else I missed for bringing some sense into this discussion.

I also recommend the movie TAPE (starring Ethan Hawke and Uma Thurman) when another trio of friends (2 guys and a gal) weren't getting quite along because one guy believed the other guy raped her 10 years before.

Edited August 30, 2003 by Jemstone

[Roy Focker]

Please don't assume that I'm not educated on the subject either. If we are going into actual social issues then we will be going too far off topic. We are both saying it was at least an attempted rape. I'm saying that the scene may not be an exact presentation of how the events occurred because the way the scene is presented. This leaves the chance that the events could have went farther. We can't say it couldn't of went farther because they would never forgive him because his attempt was already too far. I don't even think Myung or Isamu would of even overlooked his attempt. An attempt so violent that it might even of ended up with Guld killing her and Isamu. Guld's assault on her even if it didn't go any further would have been enough to keep both Myung and Isamu away from him.

[Jemstone]

Please don't assume that I'm not educated on the subject either. If we are going into actual social issues then we will be going too far off topic. We are both saying it was at least an attempted rape. I'm saying that the scene may not be an exact presentation of how the events occurred because the way the scene is presented. This leaves the chance that the events could have went farther. We can't say it couldn't of went farther because they would never forgive him because his attempt was already too far. I don't even think Myung or Isamu would of even overlooked his attempt. An attempt so violent that it might even of ended up with Guld killing her and Isamu. Guld's assault on her even if it didn't go any further would have been enough to keep both Myung and Isamu away from him.

Again, being an animation the unique "Zentran pity factor" is in play here between old best friends. That's why they still want something to do with him. Otherwise we wouldn't have a story plot.

Now, the education comment was not directed strictly and specifically towards you but in general to the responses I've been reading. I put in that link ro RAINN.org for a reason. So don't take it personally.

Still, I'm disgusted at the rational excuses for her being/possible rape. The fact here is Guld didn't rape Myung. Guld didn't rape Myung. Guld didn't rape Myung. Kawamori is not so callous a writer he would let a serious detail like that slip by.

[Gokurakumaru]

A Japanese view would be HARSHER than the western view as rape is the ultimate shame for a woman and ultimate dishonor for a man.

What century are you living in exactly? What a crock.

[Beware of Blast]

Jem, you can't really fault anyone for assuming that the rape did indeed took place. It's cuz that incident was conveyed in a very abstract manner and Kawamori and gang probably wanted us to be bothered enough to assume and discuss the posibilities.

That's why I said I hated shows that are made to have sex with my mind.

Anyway, as great as Kawamori and gang's ability to create and tell stories, I believe they have failed to put a good continuity or closure when they "allowed" Myung to sleep with Guld later.

That is because that "dark shroud" in the trio's past is never resolved...

A ) We know that Isamu (aside from Myung) is also the one who really tried to protect Guld after that incident.

1)Isamu ran away... partly because he knows (and it seems) that Guld buddy has the dips for Myung first. So he backed out. And let his buddy have Myung - this would also probably help alleviate Guld's mental problem and tendency to freak out again.

2)in a way, he "volunteered" to shoulder the blame for that attempted rape incident and

3)ultimately, he also neglected Myung who is deeply in love with him.

B ) With the causes above, he's created a very dysfunctional group (with Myung following suit - because she also wants to protect Guld but knows not what to do) out of this trio, not to mention, some negative effects:-

1)Guld was left alone to pick-up himself up from the mess he created. Alot can happen when a person like Guld is left alone.

2)With his fragile mind, Guld formed his conclusion about the incident and blames Isamu for what happened cuz Isamu ran away. Isamu's running away also puts a damper on his relationship with Myung.

3)Because Myung was the victim (as much as Guld was) and she can't help Guld much by going into a relationship with him after what happened - She's helpless herself. So she left Guld back then as well.

C ) So the future situations that unfolded 7 years later are really where they're picking up where they left off...

1)Guld is very indifferent to Isamu. Blaming him for what happened to their group.

2)Guld's unexpected reunion with Isamu places him in a position where he can punish Isamu for 'his' past actions on Myung. Guld in a way, became the unintentional selfish bastard and villain

3)Myung is also deeply affected because she was 'spurned' by Isamu. And she also blamed him (not Guld) for what happened - which made Guld's wrong resolve stronger.

And since it's where the trio are picking things up where they left 7 years ago, I really believe that it's impossible for Myung to want to sleep with Guld! - As per what the ladies I spoke to stressed, "That dark shroud of attempted rape is still there" Sex with Guld can never happen. Not with all the sympathy that Myung can give him. Not for all the change in status for Guld, whether material or character, can ever set him free of his past action on Myung.

BoB, is such a loser, he has nothing to do but let himself be bothered by this little blooper.

Edited August 30, 2003 by Beware of Blast

[Beware of Blast]

A Japanese view would be HARSHER than the western view as rape is the ultimate shame for a woman and ultimate dishonor for a man.

What century are you living in exactly? What a crock.

Actually, that view should bear no actual era and geographical difference in any civilisation. It's the basic decency code that should be observed by any self-respecting man, in regards to the way they view women - especially in the sexual light. So it's no crock.

Edited August 31, 2003 by Beware of Blast

[Gokurakumaru]

Whether it should be observed or not is not at debate. It's whether these values actually come into play.

Japan is a country where rape fantasy porn is both legal and incredibly popular unlike the west. Where female-only train services were put in place because casual molestation was so ingrained as to be acceptable in its inevitability, unlike the west. Where girls will have sex with guys they don't want to in order to spare their feelings. Not that I believe for a minute that this couldn't happen in the west, but some people here obviously think otherwise.

To say the Japanese view sex or rape in a more shameful or judgmental fashion than westerners, or even in the same way that westerners do, is nonsense. Back in 2001 my brother in law set me up with a Japanese girl working in the same hotel as him. She was already dating two guys simultaneously. My younger cousin slept with a girl once and she wanted to be a sex friend afterwards -- that's someone who's not your boyfriend/girlfriend but you have sex with them anyhow.

In my experience sex isn't as momumentous an event to your average young Japanese as it is to your average young westerner. And while I have no doubt that rape has more mental implications than casual sex, I don't believe they are always as harsh or as final as Jemstone views them. Otherwise stories like the one I told earlier just wouldn't happen.

[Beware of Blast]

Whether it should be observed or not is not at debate. It's whether these values actually come into play.

Japan is a country where rape fantasy porn is both legal and incredibly popular unlike the west. Where female-only train services were put in place because casual molestation was so ingrained as to be acceptable in its inevitability, unlike the west. Where girls will have sex with guys they don't want to in order to spare their feelings. Not that I believe for a minute that this couldn't happen in the west, but some people here obviously think otherwise.

Ah, the difference in culture is always a blurred fine line on issues like this. But the values do actually come into play - you stated them in your posts. Look into the differences. I understand you Gokumaru. That's why I said previously, if sex happens not for love, it's lust - There is always a catch or purpose to whatever we do. Other than that, it's rape.

Don't get me wrong. I said lust because for all it's final intend, it's very self-serving. It's for that want of self-gratification for regardless of whether if the goal is for money or to be intimate the a stranger's physical beauty.

As for rape...

Believe me, countries like Japan are also trying to shed that image where the prevailing popular idea is that their women are meant to be objectified just like the way you put it. Just because it's "made" legal business, doesn't mean it's not wrong to the women involved. Of course, it is unless I've been misinformed.

Given the opportunity and chance to live without fear for retribution, I'm willing to bet those women would do something else for money.

To say the Japanese view sex or rape in a more shameful or judgmental fashion than westerners, or even in the same way that westerners do, is nonsense. Back in 2001 my brother in law set me up with a Japanese girl working in the same hotel as him. She was already dating two guys simultaneously. My younger cousin slept with a girl once and she wanted to be a sex friend afterwards -- that's someone who's not your boyfriend/girlfriend but you have sex with them anyhow.

That is different. Your Japanese girlfriend and your cousin girlfriend's goal is sex - with whomever they want, plain and simple.

And of course, there is always a difference no matter how you look at it - Where girls will have sex with guys they don't want to in order to spare their feelings is still rape by all intend, because the girls are still the one whose exploited.

Again, given the opportunity and chance to decline without the fear for retribution, I'm willing to bet those girls would rather do something else.

Don't forget, there are more women who are forced into prostitution in the world than the kind of women like your cousin's girlfriend.

If that is not rape or exploitation of women, I don't know what else to call it. It's not as simple as just because they are in the business for the money, they have no right to complain.

In my experience sex isn't as momumentous an event to your average young Japanese as it is to your average young westerner. And while I have no doubt that rape has more mental implications than casual sex, I don't believe they are always as harsh or as final as Jemstone views them. Otherwise stories like the one I told earlier just wouldn't happen.

The key is unless both parties agree to do it, it's rape. Whether to what extend the damage is, unless you're the rape victim, you wouldn't know for sure. People often assume the worse out of respect for that victim. Some can clinch and carry on, some cannot. Also, you shouldn't say it is not as bad as the way Jemstone put it, because unless you're the victim, you never know.

Edited August 31, 2003 by Beware of Blast

[Jemstone]

A Japanese view would be HARSHER than the western view as rape is the ultimate shame for a woman and ultimate dishonor for a man.

What century are you living in exactly? What a crock.

Again, get some education THEN post.

[Gokurakumaru]

Also, you shouldn't say it is not as bad as the way Jemstone put it, because unless you're the victim, you never know.

I didn't say it's never as bad. I have no reason to doubt what Jemstone and the people she's talked to feel. I just don't believe it's always that bad. It's easy to pigeonhole people and say "Myung would never do that" if you're basing it on your own feelings about almost being raped. But no one feels the same way as everyone so we're all basing this on our own personal experience. Jemstone's experience colours what she expects from Myung. That doesn't make it the only way for a person to react.

Again, get some education THEN post.

See, I thought all that personal experience and general knowledge was education. If you want to make broad ethnic brushstrokes with your catch-all psychology here so you have to base it on something. Just because people used to cut their bellies open for honor doesn't mean they still do it today. I want to know why you think rape is more shameful to all parties involved if they're Japanese. Enlighten me.

[Beware of Blast]

Also, you shouldn't say it is not as bad as the way Jemstone put it, because unless you're the victim, you never know.

I didn't say it's never as bad. I have no reason to doubt what Jemstone and the people she's talked to feel. I just don't believe it's always that bad. It's easy to pigeonhole people and say "Myung would never do that" if you're basing it on your own feelings about almost being raped. But no one feels the same way as everyone so we're all basing this on our own personal experience. Jemstone's experience colours what she expects from Myung. That doesn't make it the only way for a person to react.

Which is why I'm here on this thread - To find out why Myung did it.

Also, I'm not basing my point of view on why Myung did it on just personal opinion but also the opinion of other people - particularly women's.

That whole sex incident with Guld after the fire rescue in Macross Plus (to me) just sticks out like a sore thumb. What's more, it just does't make sense at all, for the very reason that Myung is not THAT easy going when it comes to sex as demonstrated by her character, choice of person she loves and emotional standing.

I'm looking for a plausible reason why she did it. Like I said for every action or decision made, there ought to be a reason - no matter how ludicrous it might turn out. If you have it tell me let me know.

[Gokurakumaru]

Personal opinion is based on what you think as well as the behavior of people you know and what they have to say. That's why I wrote personal experience rather than opinion, because while this is all me rattling off thoughts -- same as everybody else here -- it's not like I formulated my opinion in some kind of insensitive social vacuum.

[Angel's Fury]

Maybe this is some type of weird love triangle?

Later in that movie, Guld did realise that he commited a serious crime, after the dogfight between Isamu. He redeemed himself by destroying the ghost X-9 fighter, helping Isamu get to SDF-1 Macross to save Myung, but costing his life. Guld has paid his debt.

Edited August 31, 2003 by Angel's Fury

[Beware of Blast]

Personal opinion is based on what you think as well as the behavior of people you know and what they have to say. That's why I wrote personal experience rather than opinion, because while this is all me rattling off thoughts -- same as everybody else here -- it's not like I formulated my opinion in some kind of insensitive social vacuum.

You ARE making it sound as though you are formulating your opinion in some kind of insensitive social vacuum.

Seriously, tell me just how much of personal experience do you really have, that you can use and relate to stuff that happens in anime like Macross Plus? Opinions are really not just personal experience, they encompass so many other things like gathered info via education, hindsights, different ways to tackle problems... etc. Like the stuff that you don't know so you don't make mistakes and look stupid afterwards. That's why people try to plan for their future; not just sit and let things happen - this applies also for a contrived story like Macross Plus.

Edited August 31, 2003 by Beware of Blast

[Jemstone]

See, I thought all that personal experience and general knowledge was education. If you want to make broad ethnic brushstrokes with your catch-all psychology here so you have to base it on something. Just because people used to cut their bellies open for honor doesn't mean they still do it today. I want to know why you think rape is more shameful to all parties involved if they're Japanese. Enlighten me.

Actually I would except the page I would link you to on an excellent research paper written by a bunch of Japanese college students on the issue is in Japanese which is obvious you wouldn't even begin to know how to translate. Furthermore, I have a very mixed family and happen to have relatives who live in Japan and live in it's culture (it's a soldier's life). I spent a good deal of time in Okinawa during my childhood so their way of life is not alien to me. There is also a very interesting social divide between adults and the "trendy teens". I would tell you all about it but I think it's best you do the research on your damn own. I'm sure if I posted cold hard facts and statistics you would find some way to twist it around and rant some more.

Your problem is that you are viewing it from the outside western perspective who really ONLY sees the "Japanese pop culture" aspect of it all. I would give you a short lesson but I'm gonna let you go and find out for yourself because it's evidently clear you are not interested in learning anything. You just want to start a fight and argue. I don't see you even trying to counter JsARCLIGHT's points or any other for that matter with the exception of BoB's latest posts. You just want to bitch and play devil's advocate.

I wanted to ask earlier why people felt the credence and need to even look in deeper if Myung was raped or not. Do people need to know the details? My conclusion is some are just really sick and insensitive bastards.

[Angel's Fury]

We may never know what goes through Myung's mind. Since Guld died, she was somewhat avenged.

Since I've given my 2 cents, now it's time for me to get out of this conversation entirely.

Edited August 31, 2003 by Angel's Fury

[Gokurakumaru]

Ah, now I get it. I should "get some education" by becoming 20 years younger and vacationing in Okinawa as a child, which I'm sure is the ideal age to analyze social behavior and the mentality of shame and honor. I obviously can't comprehend anything Japanese beyond pop culture because I'm a westerner. And since reading is obviously too much for us white folk to manage, the only knowledge I can hope to get is from the "trendy" Japan the teens live in. That knowledge isn't worth anything of course, because we have to ignore the social gap between the adults* and the apathetic lack of social responsibility felt by youths when we want our homogenous shame and honor model to work properly.

*And by adults I presume you mean at least 30+, because none of the people I've been talking about were teenagers.

I don't claim to be an authority on all things psychology- or Japan-related. Because I'm not. But that doesn't mean what I know and have seen should be dismissed. You may have more answers than me, but that doesn't mean you know it all simply because you behave like one.

I don't respond to JsARCLIGHT because I have nothing to respond with. He had a friend who had a total mental collapse after a rape. It's not something I can dismiss as though it didn't happen, but by the same token I'm not so naive as to think it should be extrapolated as meaning all rape victims will have a mental breakdown and withdraw from society entirely. There is no 100% rule for the human psyche. With all your posturing and talking down to me you don't seem to have noticed that that's the point I've been trying to make.

Why do people want to know if she was raped or not? Because someone broached the subject and if we disagree we want to say why we think so. If that makes us insensitive to the as yet unborn, fictional character in question, then so be it.

I'm still here because I see points I disagree with or want to clarify being brought up. A desire to be argumentative has nothing to do with it. And you're throwing stones in a glass house saying that to me when I've been posting on this thread long before it took the turn onto rape boulevard, and I at least had the courtesy to come in and post opinions rather than simply telling everyone they were wrong and should shut up. If I may paraphrase your first few contributions to the debate, "a woman doesn't do that, period" "don't post that BS again" "get an education," and throw in an angry emoticon or two for good measure.

You might find people don't seem so eager to fight and argue if they aren't forced to respond to messages whose entire length is devoted to attacking their intellect. Food for thought.

Here's another thread you might find interesting.

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...ct=ST&f=2&t=298

[Roy Focker]

People:

This is really enlighting but we don't want to go from talking about story that touches social issues to just talking about the issues.

[Jemstone]

I'm going to make this short as possible:

1. Getting an education does not mean rewinding 20 years but simply sitting your butt down and doing some research. You have the net at your finger tips. Use it.

2. The point of JsARCLIGHT's I'm talking about IS the social honor code of Japan that he even supports. So obviously it's not like it's comething I simply made up as you want to present it as. Not his rape story. If it's a load or crock then why don't you argue why he also supports it?

3. No sane enough woman on her own free will would sleep with a rapist and Myung is sane enough. Even if you wanted to simply point out that Myung could be in a very minute percantage of people reacting to rape it still wouldn't have anything to do with the overall story. I still want to know why is it so important to know if she was raped. Does it add anything at all to the story of Macross Plus?

4. I did post a link to RAINN.org. You may want to check it out as far as rape victims in the US go.

5. Since when did I ask how long you were in this thread? I simply question your motives for still arguing with ME on Japanese culture when you could have presented the exact same case to Js ARCLIGHT but you convieniently chose to ignore him.

6. To simply say "Myung slept with Guld after he raped her cuz she is messed up" without much thought or facts of such cases is BS. Sure Macross Plus was not some social study in post traumatic experiences such as rape but for people to just consider the idea as an after thought is terrible. Has anyone seriously considered how crazy Myung would have to be is she actually slept with her rapist? Sure it's just an anime but it's still no laughing matter and would be awful and irrespinsible writing on Kawamori's part. Of course I don't think he's irresponsible to lightly treat such a serious issue (and it very much is Japan) so I can only speculate on reasonings of the "fanboys" gathered here.