Macross Plus Ending

[treatment]

You know, I really don't think it was even rape, but rather jealous rage/assault that was committed or gonna be committed by Guld during the flashbacks.

I mean how can Guld proceed to rape her when Isamu was present in that room and scene? I doubt that Isamu was socked cold by Guld and Isamu would've killed Guld then and there if rape were to have happened. And how can Myung forgive and forget or even be at the same place with Guld after a rape? That's alot of traumatic stuff that cannot be forgotten nor forgiven.

Oh, well.

I still think Isamu dying in M+ would have been the most monumentally stupid act of story-writing.

Edited August 27, 2003 by treatment

[JsARCLIGHT]

But a torn shirt, a damn near rape, trying to kill a guy twice, and lying about it makes you a scumbag.

IMHO Guld Goa Bowman is a shmuck, I've never liked the character. But he is a very complex rival to Isamu. Macross Plus is one of those few outstanding animes that has complex characters who are neither good nor evil but just "real".

[Hurin]

But a torn shirt, a damn near rape, trying to kill a guy twice, and lying about it makes you a scumbag.

Agreed. As I said above, I consider Guld the villain of the story. Especially before his repressed memories return.

However, regarding the attempted murders. . . we can cut him a little slack there because he thought that Isamu was the rapist. . . not himself. Indeed, it could be argued that he was projecting the rage and shame he was feeling towards himself at Isamu.

But, now I'm reading too much into this.

[Uxi]

Heh, had that same debate with a friend, whether Guld raped Myung or he just stopped at the ripping of her clothes. Went much the same as this one here. Guld wasn't an actual villain, per se, though he was the main antagonist to Isamu's protagonist. In fact, the melodramatic flashbacks with the music playing as Myung's song is sang in the closing credits of the Movie Edition shows that it is tragic, after a sort... or would be to Isamu and Myung, because it was only through Guld's sacrifice that Isamu was able to rescue her.

Me, I kinda thought Isamu and Guld should have been able to effectively double team the Ghost, myself. A better alternate ending IMO, would have had Guld sacrifice the YF-21 (and the project) but eject or something and all 3 survive... Isamu still gets Myung.

Actual tragedy is... well... tragic. Hurin... now THAT name brings tragedy to mind (and the whole major plot of the Quenta Silmarillion)... but that's for another forum.

[Roy Focker]

Why is the term 'symbolism' so hard to believe. Guld's memory is basically dream sequence. Look at the coloring of the animation and the speed of the footage (Looks like there's less cells) it's not meant to be a flash back of exact events but what currently happing in Guld's mind. The facts can still be fuzzy in Guld's memory. The mind may still be trying to protect itself. Guld doesn't need to see himself going further. The mirror could be a creation of his mind just confirming that was he doing the 'deed.' Mirrors have to be one of the most common clich'ed symbols.

Next you people will be saying Hikaru really did have a magic bike.

[Hurin]

"Turgon! Turgon! Remember the Fens of Serech!"

Amen brother.

[Hurin]

There is no doubt that the scene is presented as a "flashback" in Guld's mind. Nobody is doubting that.

I don't think anyone seriously doubts that the torn shirt is meant to symbolize that Guld intended (at that moment) to rape her.

I also agree that a mirror is often used in the manner in which it is used in Macross Plus. It happens all the time in stories. Someone catches a glimpse of themselves in a mirror and realizes what they have become. . . and turns away from what they were about to do. But, the fact that the mirror "device" is so often used in narratives, to my mind, adds credence to the idea that the mirror event actually happened to Guld, rather than being an imagined event in his mind. Couldn't it be that the writer's went back to a cliche to stop Guld from raping her. . . rather than having Guld's mind do so to protect him from emotional trauma?

But, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he actually went through with it other than your assertion that the torn shirt means that he did.

Meanwhile, there is plenty to suggest that he did not actually go through with it and rape her.

It just does not make sense, narratively, to have Guld suddenly remember something. . . and yet that memory is still false. His memory had been false up to that point. It would be messy and narratively confusing (as demonstrated by this thread!) to have the reclaimed memory be faulty as well.

Guld doesn't need to see himself going further

No. . . but nor do we need to see him stopping after "only" ripping her shirt if the intent of the show is to demonstrate that she was raped. If the writer/director wanted us to believe she was raped, couldn't they have cut back to Guld screaming in his cockpit immediately after the ripped shirt? Then Guld wouldn't have had to suffer the further recollection, and we would safely be left with what you assert is the right impression. . . that a rape took place. Then, I don't think there would be any doubt.

But, there is a reason the writer/director placed the added mirror scene there. It is much more plausible that the mirror is a "cliched" plot device to actually stop Guld from committing rape rather than a mental device in Guld's head to keep him from emotional trauma.

Look, basically, the scene tries to show us what happened between the three of them. It does an effective job of doing so with style and dramatic cinemetography. It says what it needs to say. I don't see why some people are so darn ready to assert that this very well-done scene is actually very murky and unclear as to what happened. It isn't. . . unless you want it to be.

Until someone can address the reasons why it seems impossible/unlikely that Guld raped her, I think we have to assume he didn't. Just asserting that Guld is a bit nutty and that, therefore, we can assume anything happened in between the shots the narrative provides is a bit. . . as I started out by saying. . . convenient for those who want to insert their own interpretations into what was shown and/or those who assert that Myung was raped.

Heck, what if I want to believe that after he tore off her shirt, he went to the kitchen and made a ham sandwich!?! I can assert that too, can't I? I mean, if his memory is faulty and we really don't know how reliable that flashback sequence is, anything could have happened. So, there is my new theory: He tore her shirt, went to the kitchen and enjoyed a ham sandwhich, and then meandered on home. I did not include the mirror stuff because apparently that is cliched and probably never happened at all. But the ham sandwich definitely did!

As for the magical bike comment. It helps me to realize that there is no magical bike because it's pretty clear he's in a coma at the time. The oxygen mask and bandages are a dead give-away.

H

Edited August 27, 2003 by Hurin

[Gokurakumaru]

Guld blocks out the traumatic memory of not raping someone?

For all the giant posts rationalizing why it's possible he didn't do it, that still makes no sense to me. You take away the rape and you take away all reason he has for wanting to kill Isamu beyond petty jealousy. You really can't have Guld in control enough to know what he's doing and stop himself, but out of control enough to completely repress those memories andconcoct a fantasy where Isamu rapes her. If Guld stopped himself what is he basing that on exactly? You've taken away the frame of reference he can project onto Isamu, and only left him with the visual cue of Isamu with his arms around Myung in torn clothing. How he can be together enough to control himself but flipped out enough to misinterpret what he's already acknowledged he did himself?

Forget about the story being hard to swallow if Myung was raped and later sleeps with her rapist. Guld not doing anything beyond tearing her clothes off makes far less sense than someone who never got over rejection reaching out or offering pity sex.

[Hurin]

I don't know, coming to the realization that you are capable of that sort of horrible violence against someone you supposedly love. . . to know that you were about to commit such a heinous act (if not for the fortuitous glance up at a mirror). . . and the sense of rejection by Myung. . . and the sense of being betrayed by the two people you love the most in life. Not to mention that there might be an aspect of him hating his own zentradi blood and the violence it brough to the surface in that moment. . . that would be some pretty heavy stuff.

He's not repressing the fact that he raped her. He's repressing who he is.

[Gokurakumaru]

I still don't believe that gives him a tangible reason to hate Isamu. The scene Guld does remember is Isamu and a beat up Myung, but she isn't scared or struggling to get away from him. There's no reason for him to think Isamu did anything based on that and if all he did was some clothes tearing -- not even a single hit to the girl -- there's nothing worth wanting to kill a guy over even if he was under the impression Isamu was the culprit rather than himself.

Without what the scene suggests is about to happen actually happening I don't think the memory suppression and false fantasies wash. There's more to it than just interpreting the shocked look of realization (and bear in mind that realization only sinks in years afterward and the expression in the mirror is actually the one on Guld's face in the dogfight -- the camera flashing the contrasting old and young faces illustrates that and supports the "memory may not be 100% literal" theory) as meaning he stopped.

[tom64ss]

Does it matter? The point isn't whether he sees himself right before he rapes her or right before he beats her until she's nearly dead. The point is that he did something that was so terrible and that he's so ashamed of, that he completely blocked it out of his memory. Either of those actions fit the bill. I think they left it vague on purpose because anything our imagination can come up with is far worse than what can be represented visually. All we are allowed to know is that his actions were not something you'd want to remember doing. The audience is suppose to fill in the blank with what they themselves think is the worst possibly thing you can do to a woman as a man. Whether that's rape or nearly beating the life out of her is up to you.

[Hurin]

You take away the rape and you take away all reason he has for wanting to kill Isamu beyond petty jealousy.

If my best friend threw the woman I loved to the ground, and ripped her clothes off. . . I think I'd have more motivation to do him harm than "petty jealousy"

You really can't have Guld in control enough to know what he's doing and stop himself, but out of control enough to completely repress those memories andconcoct a fantasy where Isamu rapes her.

I can't? Why not?!? People who suffer delusions, fugue states, and repressed memories aren't "out of control." They are suffering, and they develop alternate realities in which to take refuge so that they will not have to deal with reality.

If Guld stopped himself what is he basing that on exactly? You've taken away the frame of reference he can project onto Isamu, and only left him with the visual cue of Isamu with his arms around Myung in torn clothing.

Realizing that you are a monster who would even come close to doing that to someone you've known and loved all your life. . . that's quite a frame of reference.

As for the "visual cue": There appears to be a misunderstanding. I just watched the scene again. There is no shot of Isamu holding Myung in torn clothes. There is a shot of them staring agape at Guld as he enters the room, Isamu (apparently realizing that Guld is in a jealous, violent rage) shoves Myung aside and takes a puch from Guld, and falls to the floor. Myung is standing and staring in shock. Guld then approaches her and Myung falls (or is pushed) down against the dresser (Which, suprise! Has a mirror above it!). Guld reaches down and terrors off her top as she stares back in terror. He then catches a glimpse of himself in the mirror above the dresser. . . and screams in horror at the monster he now realizes he is. And. . . that's it. The next shot is of the missiles impacting and the super-imposed Guld screaming in the cockpit.

edit: Is there another flashback where Guld sees a Isamu holding Myung in a torn shirt outside of the flashback mentioned above? If so, I had forgotten it and couldn't find it tonight as I scanned through volume 2. So, if I'm wrong about the above point. . . my apologies.

How he can be together enough to control himself but flipped out enough to misinterpret what he's already acknowledged he did himself?

I think you have a very confused understanding of how dimentia takes place in the mind. It's not as though he instantly conjured the alternate reality at that very moment. He didn't suddenly stand there and say: "Isamu! Stop raping Myung!"

Now, I'm engaging in the sort of theorizing of which I'm being so critical. . . but I assume the rest of the story is that Guld screamed, and fled the apartment. He then disappeared and didn't see either of them again. While away from them, unable to face the fact that he almost raped Myung, assaulted his best friend, and shattered the relationships between them, he gradually succumbs to a fantasy world where he was the hero. . . and Isamu had attempted to rape Myung.

Forget about the story being hard to swallow if Myung was raped and later sleeps with her rapist. Guld not doing anything beyond tearing her clothes off makes far less sense than someone who never got over rejection reaching out or offering pity sex.

Huh? I'm not sure who's offering and who's reaching out in that scenario. The fact is that they do sleep together, and I'm not sure how any conceivable scenario you present in that sentence makes Myung's sleeping with Guld any more understandable. But, if you find it so inconceivable that Guld could get ahold of himself before actually raping her, and then couldn't feel so ashamed at what he almost did to repress the memory. . . then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

For all the giant posts rationalizing why it's possible he didn't do it

Hey sparky! I type 90wpm. So this is like talking to me.

Anyways, I've said all I'm going to say on this. I just watched the scene to refresh my memory. There is definitely a rythm to the scene and it flows rather smoothly. This makes me even less likely to believe that there is any "missing" time there. It's more like watching a scene in a strobe light. There are no huge gaps of time.

People can insert whatever they desire. People can interpret it however they want. However, I don't see the need to do so. What is there on the screen presents an entirely consistent and compelling story. I don't see the need to insert events not shown in the scene while ignoring or re-interpreting those that are there in order to force Guld into the role of a rapist. Why do this when "violent monster-of-a-person" fills the role and needs of the story just fine and is fully supported by what is on the screen. Further, he is ultimately supposed to be a sympathetic character at the end. I don't think it is good writing to designate a character as a rapist if you want anyone to feel sympathy for him.

We're going around in circles here. So, I'll let someone else take up the good fight if anyone cares enough to do so. But, I'd still like to hear someone in the "he raped her" camp address more directly the arugments of the other side rather than just say: "No. I disagree. He reaped her." Yes, I've written a lot. Probably too much. But I think I've made some valid points and addressed the points of others.

1. If the writer/director wanted us to know that Myung was raped. Why show the mirror stuff at all? Why not just stop the dream-sequence at the shirt-ripping. That would remove all doubt.

2. How could Guld rape her with Isamu still in the room and presumably still able to defend her?

3. What reason, other than bold assertion, do we have to believe that Guld did not look into the mirror and come to his senses before actually raping Myung? In other words, why on earth would we believe that Guld would insert this into his memory to protect himself from the actual visuals at the very moment that the story has him regaining his true memories!?!

4. How in the heck are we expected to believe that Myung would sleep with Guld later in life after he brutally raped her?

5. Are we expected to believe that Isamu as well would simply forgive Guld as soon as Guld admits to raping her?

6. Assuming we're supposed to feel sympathy for Guld as he sacrifices himself. Would the writers really expect us to feel sympathy for someone who brutally raped the main love interest of the story?

I could go on. . . but with just those points above. . . Guld actually raping Myung doesn't seem to fit as well into the story and circumstances as well as what is actually shown on the screen.

And that's the last I'll say on this topic.

I'm out!

Best Regards,

Edited August 28, 2003 by Hurin

[treatment]

you know, guys (and girls, if any), regardless of what we all think of what happened or not with Guld's arc, one thing is pretty evident in this thread:

We all so much love the Macross Plus story. So much so that varying smart-level interpretations of the intelligent drama-aspect of the show completely engulfs all of us in a rather intelligent and civilized manner of discussion.

Kudos to you all and to Macross Plus for being such a powerful and premiere Macross title. Keep up the smartness.

+ACo-thumbs up+ACo-

--treatment--

Edited August 28, 2003 by treatment

[Gokurakumaru]

Regarding that scene I refer to, I recall it being a flashback early in the story to hint at what Guld's so pissed at Isamu about. Don't remember where it occurs specifically.

Regarding pity sex towards your psychologically messed up friend: the story explicitly says that Guld's problem is related to his alien makeup, so it's no leap to think Myung could forgive Guld for something she considers to be beyond his control. His mental state circa 2040 is a fair indicator that he didn't ever want to hurt her, and recall this scene played out immediately after he'd been hurt while saving her life. This scenario is already a huge step up from repeatedly abusive boyfriends in real life, and yet it's not like real women don't stay with them. For purposes of relationships Myung's obviously messed up too, so I don't see this as being such a leap as you do.

Regarding Guld's gradual change of events. The flashback I'm thinking of implies he saw something post assault. He didn't run screaming out of the house in that case. And I'm still dubious that he would face the facts both before the rape and again in 2040 without some kind of complete mental collapse, but feel the need to gradually concoct an unbased fantasy in between. Like you say, we'll have to agree to disagree. But me taking what is suggested on screen and expecting it to be played out completely is no less a reach than you saying it didn't happen because they only showed events up to the mirror.

Oh, and Guld could have raped Isamu as well if he wanted to. Not only was he was bigger but he got the first hit in, flooring the guy.

Edited August 28, 2003 by Gokurakumaru

[Uxi]

Oh yeah, that discussion debate with my friend basically didn't solve anything. I'm still kinda thinking Guld MIGHT HAVE (I'm about 60/40 for saying Guld did) raped her and my friend still doesn't think Guld did (I'd guess my friend is about 90% sure against, but I'll have to ask to make sure).

Off topic but I think Turin's story is more tragic (or rather had so much more potential that was utterly wasted) than even Hurin's though the latters utter defeat in the end makes it close. And the Noldor's whole "adventure" was ultimately a waste... and they dragged the Edain down with them too.

[Radd]

I don't think Isamu dying would have added anything to the story, for the reasons adduced above.

There is one thing that bugs me about M+: Isamu doesn't have a character arc. Every other character (Even Sharon, Lucy, Millard, Yang, etc.) underwent appreciable character arcs. Isamu didn't change much at all during the course of the story.

Isamu didn't really need to have much in the way of character developement, and it would have served only to make the story more complicated if he changed because while he didn't, our perceptions of him did (or, at least, that seems to be the intention of the show).

When we start off, we're given the impression that Isamu is a hot head, reckless, a loose cannon that can't control himself. No restraint. A jackass, basically. This is reinforced by Guld's view of what happened, which we, the viewers, don't have any reason to question at the beginning of the show. Isamu did something that screwed up his friendship with Guld and Myung and left them both mad at him.

This is eventually torn down by both Myung's obvious affections towards Isamu, and the very 'scripted' way she tends to blow him off or bad mouth him whenever Guld is around, and by Guld's self control slowly chipping away more and more throughout the OVA. Guld's revelation brings Isamu's predicament into light. He's a very good person who's doing everything he can to help his poor, flawed friend even to the point of denying himself the girl he truly wants. All that must be festering deep inside of him and he vents it by these seemingly reckless outbursts.

As for what happened to Isamu after Macross Plus? Him and Myung road off into the sunset for all intents and purposes. Most likely there was a court martial, but Isamu saved the entire world. That has to count for something. He probably got off in the end.

On the topic of how far did Guld go? Speculation is all you people will accomplish. The fact is, we don't know. We can infere from what we see on screen and some people will take that further than others. We do know Guld was the one that broke them all apart. Guld was the one who lacked self control. Guld did something bad. How far he took it is not important to the story, so long as the audience gets the idea that he took things too far.

[Mechamaniac]

As for what happened to Isamu after Macross Plus? Him and Myung road off into the sunset for all intents and purposes. Most likely there was a court martial, but Isamu saved the entire world. That has to count for something. He probably got off in the end.

Hmmm, a court martial, but with mitigating circumstances that he saved the entire world.

Cut to Isamu and Myung in a small shuttlecraft, whirring along the desert flats of Eden towards the new Edwards base.

Isamu: The bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the universe, we'll get a VF-4!

Myung: I'm counting on the YF-22

Yang: The YF-22!? Why in God's name would you want that bucket of bolts?

Isamu: A valk is a valk.

Myung: Whatever you say, Thy will be done.

The shuttlecraft whirs to a stop in front of a large hangar with it's doors standing open. Isamu and Myung gaze out the window of the shuttlecraft in time to see a large elevator rising out of the floor of the hangar bearing a gleaming new fighter. On the side of the all too familiar fighter are the freshly painted letters designating it YF-19-A

Isamu: My friends.. We've come home.

Edited August 28, 2003 by Mechamaniac

[Gyges]

Isamu didn't really need to have much in the way of character developement, and it would have served only to make the story more complicated if he changed because while he didn't, our perceptions of him did (or, at least, that seems to be the intention of the show).

Perhaps. But nonetheless, Isamu begins as a jackass, and ends as a jackass. He's almost entirely self-centered, with only a patina of affection for Myung and Guld. Were it not for his incredible piloting skills, he wouldn't likely be anyone I'd ever want to watch. It's a toss-up for me whether Isamu of Basara is more self-involved.

"You will listen to my song!"

vs.

"You will let me fly to my heart's content!"

...

Gee, this was almost entirely OT, huh?

[SilverValkyrie]

Two things to say:

1) "Dedicated to future pioneers" - the ending tags it as NON-Shakespearean tragic....although each character has a major flaw that becomes their downfall BUT unlike SST those same flaws are their salvation. We are all sitting here trying to rationalize the irrational. What Kawamori shows (and what he doesn't show) are all part of why M+ is so important: Each person who sees it further builds the story with their thoughts and interpretations resulting in discussions such as this one. That is why M+ endures...and why Isamu deserved to live.

2) Mechamaniac....I love that ending you made. Nice...YF-19-A indeed!

Valkyrie

PS: Why doesn't anyone talk about how Yang is a tragic hero?!!! Cuz He is!

[mikeszekely]

There's a point where the death of a main character adds realism and impact to the story, and there's a point where killing off too many main characters and making the ending as tragic as possible is no more realistic than happy ending. Anyone remember Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon?

SPOILERS IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN IT! When Chow Yun Fat's character died, it was a believable part of the story. Now if they would have left it at that, fine, but having Zhang Ziyi's character commit suicide after she's finally able to be with her boyfriend, that was just stupid, reguardless of their little story about flying away or whatever. END OF SPOILERS.

I think that Guld dying gave you that realistic tragic death for impact. I think killing off Isamu too would have been overkill.

[Roy Focker]

I'm not saying we know that he raped her 100% but it highly suggested that things may have went beyond what you have seen. It's a dream sequence they are never meant to be take literally. Is the idea that Guld might some thing like that so damaging to people psyche that they totally refuse to accept it?

Gee isn't that Guld did?

Consider that the mirror wasn't originally there. In Guld's previous memory it was Isamu who did the 'deed'. At the moment of 'killing' Isamu's YF-19 a repressed memory comes out in Guld mind in the form of a dream sequence. He's seeing things through the eyes of the attacker. That attacker isn't Isamu but who is it? Finally in Guld's mind he imagines the 'mirror' which tells him he's the attacker. The mirror may never been there in the first place but it's in his mind to show him that the eyes of the attacker are his own. Once Guld figures it out in the dream sequence that there's no point in him eating a ham sandwich or showing raping her because he remembers that it was him. The whole point of the sequence was to reveil it was him and not the exact events of how they played out.

The torn shirt is a clearly image of at least his intent to rape her. There can no other intent behind that act. I serious doubt that he was tearing her shirt because it was a Xmas gift that he wanted back. How far he got with the rape is unknown but anyone who studied anything on film doesn't need anything more graphic to figure out what is being suggested.

It's a memory being played out as a dream sequence. They are often shown in film as being disjointed, dream like and more focused on images then on facts. If Isamu has a similar repressed memory but it's of him and Guld eating hotdogs together guess what's suppose to mean? 'Oh I know that he and Guld ate hotdogs for lunch one day right?' ' Yeah they 'ate' 'hot dogs' alright.' Images that are shown in a dream like sequence are not meant to taken literally. One can not look at dream like sequence and say 100% is fact.

Some thing happen that day that was so bad that Guld repressed it and his closest friends decided to keep it from him. Guld convinced himself that is was Isamu, Myung saw Guld as victim as well, Isamu couldn't stand it and left. The 'event' was so bad that it made Guld want to kill Isamu and made Myung on edge when ever Guld touched her (notice the scene when touches her shoulders from behind and she nearly jumps). This was an event that could ruin Guld so much that Myung and Isamu went thought extreme lenghts to protect him. To believe that they went through all of this over just over a torn shirt is a bit naive. Something really bad happen that went beyond the images we saw. What it saw exactly was left up to the viewer but the torn shirt was pretty clear suggestion of Guld's intent.

[JsARCLIGHT]

If you apply the principals of outdated Freudian psychology then that sequence can mean anything and everything from "he definately raped her" to "he wanted to rape her" to "he thought he raped her" all the way to "he really likes Isamu and wants to rape him".

How do we know that sequence is to be interpreted in the context of a dream in the first place? In my book it is a "revelation" or "flashback" sequence. Guld finally, through a bout of deep emotional stress, has a revelation as to the true events that took place. My father was a vietnam vet and he used to have very emotional flashbacks at times. Once I found him crying alone in the basement just saying "he's dead! he's dead!" and to this day I have no clue what he was talking about.

I would think if Guld had actually raped Myung the true horror of what he did would have come back him. His mind, having repressed it for so long, would have opened like a floodgate and shown him (and us) the true extent of the evil he did. On the flip side of the coin you can say that Kawamori took "Artistic License" and chose not to show something that graphic... but in the end something as vile and horrible as a rape would have had different emotional reprecussions to the people involved. "Japanese politeness" or not someone like Myung would not be so casual and forgiving to her rapist.

Either that or we are reading waaaaaaay too much into something that some writer wrote not knowing that a bunch of geeks would be debating it in a message board...

[Mechamaniac]

Consider that the mirror wasn't originally there. In Guld's previous memory it was Isamu who did the 'deed'. At the moment of 'killing' Isamu's YF-19 a repressed memory comes out in Guld mind in the form of a dream sequence. He's seeing things through the eyes of the attacker. That attacker isn't Isamu but who is it? Finally in Guld's mind he imagines the 'mirror' which tells him he's the attacker. The mirror may never been there in the first place but it's in his mind to show him that the eyes of the attacker are his own.

The whole point of the sequence was to reveil it was him and not the exact events of how they played out.

It's a memory being played out as a dream sequence. They are often shown in film as being disjointed, dream like and more focused on images then on facts.

Yeah, imagine Guld's flashback as the scene from Blade Runner where Deckard is using the ESPER to scan the picture he found in Leon's apartment.

Your mind remembers every single experience it has ever encountered. Everything your eyes have ever seen, is stored somewhere in the deep recesses of your brain. Guld needed a trigger to take him back to those images that he saw when he attacked Myung.

He may or may not have actually looked in the mirror when he attacked Myung, the mirror may or may not have been there. The point is that when he thought he had destroyed the YF-19, his mind triggered the images from that experience, and he was able to explore them to some degree subconsciously.

[SilverValkyrie]

<-----------frightened by the line about Guld wanting to rape Isamu

Ewwww....

Valkyrie

[Roy Focker]

Even Fued is credited with saying 'some times a cigar is just a cigar.' Yet what other meanings could a ripped shirt mean? Can any of think of reasons why you would rip off a woman's shirt? The shirt wasn't 100% cotton maybe?

You can tell by the animation that it's more a dream like seqence then a true flash back. We see other real flash backs in Macross plus (Isamu flying the glider, the three holding the planet). In those cases everything looks like the rest of the animation but the picture is a tad unfocused. Those flash backs are appearing in the story. Guld's is appearing in his mind. The film is different color, it is barely even animated. Look at the way the door opens to the room. There is marked difference between Guld's memory and the other flash backs. The scene in Guld's mind is very surreal. The point of the scene isn't meant to be an exact sequence of the actual of events but Guld realising that it was him.

[Gyges]

While I, too, am impressed by the erudition that has characterized the discussion thus far, I would venture to make two points...

A-- There can be no answer to the question, only stronger or weaker inductive guesses;

B-- Whatever Guld did or didn't do, it is clear that he assaulted Myung in a sexual fashion. While not belittling the great differences that exist within that general class of actions (to wit, sexual assault, broadly construed), what kind of "sexual assault" Guld committed strikes me as academic in this case.

[uminoken]

There's a point where the death of a main character adds realism and impact to the story, and there's a point where killing off too many main characters and making the ending as tragic as possible is no more realistic than happy ending.  Anyone remember Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon? 

SPOILERS IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN IT!  When Chow Yun Fat's character died, it was a believable part of the story.  Now if they would have left it at that, fine, but having Zhang Ziyi's character commit suicide after she's finally able to be with her boyfriend, that was just stupid, reguardless of their little story about flying away or whatever.  END OF SPOILERS.

Add me to the "Isamu's death would be pointless" crew. To me, that would basically fly in the face of the entire Macross series, as it is one of hope.

I've always thought that Guld didn't rape her (but came darn close) Because for reasons stated earlier, there was NO WAY either Myung or Isamu would have forgiven him that easily and pretended like it never happened, even if they were trying to hide it from him (that he could become violent and lash out as per his Zentraedi instincts)

SPOILERS for Crouching Tiger

As to CTHD's end, my feeling was that she jumped as a way of atonement for her involvment in Li's (Chow Yun Fat) and her master's death.

[Beware of Blast]

Gaaah! After reading all your explanations here, I'm still deeply bothered by the fact that MYUNG SLEPT WITH GULD AFTER THE FIRE RESCUE!!!

Whether she was indeed raped, or not... the fact that Guld did and, is visually shown, ripping Myung's shirt off back then, would DIFINATELY have mentally scarred/raped Myung!

And victims of such aggression will most likely NEVER recover themselves, or perhaps, find closure waaaay years later into their lives! Almost all violence and rape victims will agree to that - They even quiver with fear at the memory, sight, smell and voice of their previous aggressors.

So why?! Why in GOD's name did Myung sleep with Guld? Is it the "Stolkholm Syndrome" or it's more sinister brother that is not yet discovered scientifically?

PLEASE SOMEONE IN THE KNOW, ANSWER ME!!!

I plenty hate shows that are made to have sex with my mind! This Macross Plus dilemma of mine have now grown into a very deep seated mental dichotomy - I'm starting to have repressed memory myself! Hey maybe the tearing of the shirt scene happened Macross 7! Maybe Basara did it! Gaaah!

[Beware of Blast]

Please! Since this topic is up, be a good Samaritan and answer my question above. I beg of you! I NEED A CLOSURE TO THAT INCIDENT. This is as BAD as my memory of Alex DeLarge kicking the poor bastard as he sings "Singing in the rain".

[Ranger_Karl]

Hey, calm down there! I think the resident psychoanalists are still asleep!

[thedarkmarine]

BOB: Most rape victims you speak of don't know their aggressor as best friends, but only as monsters they don't even know of. Also, Myung could have also been able to piece together why Guld did whatever he did, and spare some sympathy.

[Beware of Blast]

BOB: Most rape victims you speak of don't know their aggressor as best friends, but only as monsters they don't even know of. Also, Myung could have also been able to piece together why Guld did whatever he did, and spare some sympathy.

Hi there darkmarine,

I can agree with you. However, you are only half correct. I say this because there are equally many cases of incest, date rape and what not, happening in the world. And the victims DO know their aggressors. But lets not go too in depth into that.

My point is, even if it's just sympathy that Myung have for Guld in the end, that does not mean she was doing Guld for charity. What's more, Myung never loved Guld to begin with... So it just doesn't make sense for them to end up making love - a collaborative act between a couple who feels mutually for one another.

Even if there is no love, only lust, the feeling MUST be mutual in order for a one night stand to happen. I seriously doubt Myung would have any lust for Guld. Not with what transpired in the past.

But I do know what I'm talking about (But that doesn't mean I was subjected to such heinous torture - to which I'm very thankful) when I say - the victims abhor their attackers, to the point of going insane or commiting suicide.

I'm still deeply bothered. WHY MYUNG?! WHY?!!

Edited August 29, 2003 by Beware of Blast

[JB0]

What's more, Myung never loved Guld to begin with...

But she did.

At least if Sharon can be believed, and as I understood things Sharon was a rather reliable source as far as analyzing Myung's emotional state went.

[Beware of Blast]

Huh? Sharon was obsessed with Isamu due to Myung's pent-up feelings for him. Neither she nor Myung had a thing for Guld. Even back in 7 years ago, between Isamu and Myung, that poor bastard was simply tagging along, because no one else but them (Myung and Isamu) would have him as friend.

Face it, despite the fact that humans and most of the Zentradi are at peace, the Zentradi and their half breed decendants, are still treated with social stigma. By Myung's impressionable age, Guld could never get pass and ascend beyond that "close friend" relationship with her.

If Myung ever loved Guld, that feeling would probably be the kind that a sister would give her brother.

Edited August 30, 2003 by Beware of Blast

[JsARCLIGHT]

I cannot speak as a certified psychologist on this but I have seen the effects of rape first hand... in a situation close to this one.

When I was in college I lived in a flat with 5 other people, three guys and two girls. One of the girls was a quiet, introverted fashion student who was with us only because we seemed like a well mannered group and she was friends with one of the guys. As the semesters went by we threw a lot of parties and we all got pretty close to each other. One night during a rather raucus party she was accosted by one of the other guys who lived with us. They had always had a sort of smoldering thing but they never went beyond that (and he had a girlfriend). Needless to say long story short we all woke up the next morning to find them missing. We thought nothing of it as we all came and went in the loft regularly. Later on that afternoon the guy comes back and goes over to his corner of the loft, gets some of his things and leaves. Once again, nothing too out of the ordinary or weird. That night the girl comes back to the loft and it is obvious she has been out all day who knows where and is very disheveled. I and another guy tried to talk to her but she would just ignore us. This sort of "ignoring" went on for a week. Then we all started wondering where "the other guy" went, he never came back to the loft and no one heard anything from him. We later found out from talking to some people in the building that they thought the guy had raped the girl on the roof of the building the night of the party. Needless to say we were all a bit skeptical but events were definately turning towards something not right having had occured. Another week later and "the girl" moved out of the loft and dropped out of school all together. That was when we found out it was true that she had been raped by one of our friends that night. It really puts the zap on you to learn that two people you lived with for a time had something like that go down. You find yourself saying things like "(guy's name) would never do that... would he?" and "(girl's name) wouldn't let that happen, she knew (guy's name) too well..."

In the end we found out that the girl (as of 1997 when I talked with my old roomates last) was almost an emotional wreck still, living at home with her parents. She never finished school and didn't even have a job. That one incident just derailed her entire life.

On the flip side of the coin I have heard stories of women that move on with their lives and somehow justify or cathardically purge those emotions and bad experiences... think of all the "Battered wives" there are in the world and how their husbands hit and molest them and they keep coming back. Human psyche is a weird area to tread, some people are resilient and let nothing effect them while others fall apart at the slightest rock of the boat.

Then again we are also talking about a fictional story written by some science fiction writers to flesh out a freaking giant robot story here folks...

Edited August 30, 2003 by JsARCLIGHT