Finally able to put Macross '83 TV and DYRL Zentradi into perspect

[Paladinrja]

Hello everyone! Hope I got this in the right forum...

Thanks to the final episode of Macross 7: Encore OAV ~ ep. "Flotilla of Superwomen" featuring the run in between the Macross 7 Colony and a rogue Meltran fleet whom commander Chlore is rival to Millia (an awesome end to M7 that SHOULD have been part of the mainline TV series! IMO)...

We all know that apart from the original TV series, every other Macross story has taken root from the first movie Do you remember Love? and whilst adding in the entire story elements from the main TV series in the summer of '83. What has been confusing is the exact relationship between Meltran and Zentran elements of the Zentradi armada; due mostly to the fact that in the movie, Bodol-za is opposed, not only by UN of Earth but also by the Meltrandi.

Well I think I can put this whole Zentradi thing into proper perspective now.

Even in the TV series, Britai states that the Zentradi female and males don't interact and in fact often fight. Bodol-za basically implies that this too is a form of defense from the effects of Protoculture that he orchestrated and Exedol says pretty much the same thing in DYRL to Britai.

Taking note of the fact that Kawamori-san said that the differences in the story between the TV series of Macross ('83) and the Movie were just superficial and based on a time constraint. That the essential story is the same (which is true, they only really cut a lot of visual elements and time from the TV series but basically retold all the fundamental points with all critical characters and VA reprising roles).

Overall, the Zentradi are one fighting armada hell bent on chasing down and eliminating both Protoculture and Protodevlin and any offshoots. In the TV series they go on about the supervision army, and it then becomes obvious by M7 that the supervision army is an offshoot of Protodevlin's which was only stopped by a remnant element of Protoculture purists (most of the rest of Protoculture wiped themselves and were wiped out) called Animas Spiritia (Pure essential life force, think of them as existentialism fundamentalists).

There is mention from Exedol the archivist, that although the Zentradi were created to fight for the Protoculture by proxy. Fundamentalists had basically informed them of this and it created a schism of some kind. Probably and very humanly, due to the fact that during a period over 500,000yrs ago. Protodevlins had assumed control of high ranking members of the the Protoculture which by this time spanned the entire Milky way as a Galactic government. These members managed to incite elements of the Zentradi and Protoculture into what became the Supervision Army (think of them like the 'enlightened ones'). Actually, it was the Protodevlins first army. I think the reason why Bodol-za decided to immortalise the animosity between the Zentradi and the Supervision army was most likely because, upon discovering that they were merely constructs for war for the Protoculture, the reason why it was made clear to the Zentradi wasn't for any pure reasons but because Protodevlins had purposefully thrown the galaxy into disarray in order to weaken the entire framework built by the Protoculture so that Protodevlins could harvest spiritia largely uncontested.

I think that the sheer weight forced Bodol-za to decide that Protoculture were immoral (based purely on the fact that highly evolved society decided to engage in civil war) and Protodevlin were pure evil in our dimension. Both in his eyes had to go. I would say the back drop to this was most likely, already, full scale galactic civil war between fascist Protoculturists and Supervisionists, with purist Protoculturist and emancipated Zentradi stuck between them; all orchestrated by Protodevlins.

Part of this of course would be fear of Meltran and Zentran cohabitation and so Bodol-za kept up the animosity of between male and female Zentradi that would only ever work together if the entire Zentradi were threatened in any way. Chlore knew about Britia and called him the "Traitor/Back stabber" which is the name he got after opposing Bodol-za. Whilst Chlore is speaking with Advisor Tranq'el. she queries the advisor about Millia's existence with males (even as a miclone), whom replies that there has never been a precedent for this as far as she knows (basically implies that what Max managed was a pretty big deal). Funnily enough Ambassador Tranq'el also talks about Exedols archives completely oblivious to the fact that he is on Battle 7 and was with Britai during the Zentradi campaign against Earth (which was through to include ALL elements of the Zentradi fleet but it seems that between the sexes there is a certain amount of autonomy). Both also seem to be accustomed to miclones which seem to be regarded as second rate life forms by the Meltran (at least) and Chlore will not negotiate with them directly, no matter what.

Bodol-za purposefully kept information from the Meltran in order to keep them suspicious and so that they would have to fight for that information. The only way they were allowed to be gain what one side or the other didn't know is through struggle, this is even within their own gender. This went for Zentran as well. Thus when humans from the Macross were captured in DYRL the Meltran were forced to infiltrate the Zentran vessel in order to gain knowledge that Bodol-za wasn't prepared to share just yet but in the TV series, we see Lap Lamiz was mysteriously brought in to take over from Britai when he was removed from the human sector due to suspected Protoculture contamination.

In this way, the Zentradi are a pure warrior race that are never able to become intimate with one another on any level. Even that of something as simple as misreading the facial expressions of a woman whom is being hurt, other men simply will not react in fact they are more likely to support their male comrade. She won't evoke anything in him other than rage.

So after all this, I guess that what I am trying to say is that the Meltran and Zentran are, unless very specific circumstances, also most likely prone to war with one another as much as they are likely to only support one another when their race is threatened with extinction in some form. Even in the TV series the Meltran had obvious contempt for the Zentran and Lap Lamiz only worked with Bodol-za because it was mutually beneficial.

Otherwise the Meltran are all about intelligence and hit'n'run tactics, resource management rather than full scale brute force. Queadruun'Lau armour rather than battle pods, etc..and despite what is said elsewhere, both in the TV series and in the movie DYRL the Meltran have the more technologically proficient and sleeker vessles. Everything about them is multi-functional, multi-purpose and resourceful. Yes, its all very archetypical but makes sense to not overthink it where the Zentradi are concerned and given what Bodol-za has orchestrated out of fear.

Given what the Protodevlin represent.. what Basara actually managed to do is pretty damn huge. It also makes me suspicious that the Protoculture expeditionary team that seeded Earth most likely were of the minority Animas Spiritia or Purist Protoculturists.

Does this make sense to anyone?

[Seto Kaiba]

Thanks to the final episode of Macross 7: Encore OAV ~ ep. "Flotilla of Superwomen" featuring the run in between the Macross 7 Colony and a rogue Meltran fleet whom commander Chlore is rival to Millia (an awesome end to M7 that SHOULD have been part of the mainline TV series! IMO)...

IIRC, "Fleet of the Strongest Women" wasn't actually part of Macross 7 Encore.

Putting aside it being an unaired episode, its events are believed to take place around 10 episodes before the end of the series proper.

We all know that apart from the original TV series, every other Macross story has taken root from the first movie Do you remember Love? and whilst adding in the entire story elements from the main TV series in the summer of '83.

That's actually not true... Kawamori has historically maintained that neither the original Macross series nor DYRL? is the "true" story of the First Space War, but that the truth is somewhere in the middle. In recent years, he's expanded that view to the rest of Macross as well...

(The timeline in the official Macross encyclopedia Macross Chronicle is based on the TV series' events, and there are explanations behind the various uses of DYRL? designs in later Macross shows.)

What has been confusing is the exact relationship between Meltran and Zentran elements of the Zentradi armada; due mostly to the fact that in the movie, Bodol-za is opposed, not only by UN of Earth but also by the Meltrandi.

Actually, it's pretty straightforward... within the Macross universe, Do You Remember Love? is actually a propaganda movie which dramatized the First Space War that was released in February 2031. The goal there was, in part, to drive home the ongoing and severe nature of the Zentradi threat. Essentially, there is no "Meltrandi Army" in Macross... and the Zentradi females themselves were/are basically just elite troops in the Zentradi forces. Their enemy is the Supervision Army.

Only in the "parallel world" of Macross II, which treats DYRL? as being (mostly) the true and authentic First Space War story, does the Meltrandi Army exist at all. (The Supervision Army does not exist in Macross II.)

Overall, the Zentradi are one fighting armada hell bent on chasing down and eliminating both Protoculture and Protodevlin and any offshoots. In the TV series they go on about the supervision army, and it then becomes obvious by M7 that the supervision army is an offshoot of Protodevlin's which was only stopped by a remnant element of Protoculture purists (most of the rest of Protoculture wiped themselves and were wiped out) called Animas Spiritia (Pure essential life force, think of them as existentialism fundamentalists).

The Zentradi aren't hell-bent on eliminating the Protoculture... they have standing orders to leave the Protoculture alone.

The Supervision Army is, yes, a force made up of the spiritia-drained and brainwashed Protoculture and Zentradi who were taken prisoner by the Protodeviln. The Protodeviln themselves were stopped by the anima spiritia (people who had the ability to produce spiritia that negatively affected the Protodeviln) and sealed away, but the Supervision Army is still supposedly at large.

Not sure where you're getting the existentialist fundamentalist thing tho...

There is mention from Exedol the archivist, that although the Zentradi were created to fight for the Protoculture by proxy. Fundamentalists had basically informed them of this and it created a schism of some kind. Probably and very humanly, due to the fact that during a period over 500,000yrs ago. Protodevlins had assumed control of high ranking members of the the Protoculture which by this time spanned the entire Milky way as a Galactic government.

That's not accurate at all, I'm afraid...

The Protoculture did, in fact, create the Zentradi to do their fighting for them. The Zentradi were well aware of this fact, and had no problem with it, being that they were indoctrinated and brainwashed to concern themselves only with military matters and to avoid interfering with the Protoculture.

The schism was between two different factions of the Protoculture (the reason for the schism is not given), but it's mentioned in the ruins on Lux that the Protoculture were a divided people for much of their history. There was warfare between the factions, and the "Evil-series bio-weapon" bodies that became the Protodeviln were a weapon one side created for that conflict. The Protodeviln are energy beings from higher dimension space who were accidentally trapped in those bodies when the experimental power source developed to power the amazing combat abilities of the bio-weapons malfunctioned during testing. They never "assumed control" over anyone in government, the Protodeviln spiritia-drained and brainwashed the Protoculture and Zentradi on the world that the bio-weapons had been developed on, and turned them into the start of a conquering army (the Supervision Army) to supply them with spiritia so they could continue to exist on this plane of reality. Their emergence actually ended the schism by presenting both sides with a common enemy, though most of the Protoculture were wiped out in the fighting.

I think that the sheer weight forced Bodol-za to decide that Protoculture were immoral (based purely on the fact that highly evolved society decided to engage in civil war) and Protodevlin were pure evil in our dimension.

Boddole Zer wasn't even alive when the Protoculture were fighting their schism war, or their subsequent war with the Supervision Army. That was half a million years before the "present day" in 2009, and Zentradi lifespans aren't much different from a human's.

(DYRL?'s Golg Boddole Zer is an organic computer rather than an actual Zentradi soldier, but even he's only 120,000.)

Part of this of course would be fear of Meltran and Zentran cohabitation and so Bodol-za kept up the animosity of between male and female Zentradi that would only ever work together if the entire Zentradi were threatened in any way.

There was no animosity between male and female Zentradi in the series... the rival "Meltrandi Army" was an in-universe invention made for the 2031 propaganda movie Do You Remember Love?. Operational practices passed down from before the ages when the Protoculture civilization still stood are what keep the males and females segregated in the Zentradi Army, and that's done as a way of keeping them from deviating from their purely military mindset.

In this way, the Zentradi are a pure warrior race that are never able to become intimate with one another on any level. Even that of something as simple as misreading the facial expressions of a woman whom is being hurt, other men simply will not react in fact they are more likely to support their male comrade. She won't evoke anything in him other than rage.

The Zentradi in the Macross series have a pretty decent handle on professional relationships and body language... they just don't have the appropriate cultural context for any interaction beyond platonic, purely military operations. Also, Milia was not viewed with animosity, but with respect and more than a little awe for her status as their fleet's top ace. (The spy trio in particular were mightily pleased that they were being deployed for their mission by Milia herself...)

Otherwise the Meltran are all about intelligence and hit'n'run tactics, resource management rather than full scale brute force. Queadruun'Lau armour rather than battle pods, etc..and despite what is said elsewhere, both in the TV series and in the movie DYRL the Meltran have the more technologically proficient and sleeker vessles. Everything about them is multi-functional, multi-purpose and resourceful.

Actually, the Meltrans are all about top piloting skill... in the Macross universe, the female Zentradi were basically the result of the Protoculture engineers on one side of the schism war building a battle suit with uncontrollably high specs, and then resolving that they'd rather build a better pilot than try to make the Queadluun-Rau less high-spec.

Laplamiz's direct defense fleet in the series was part of the fleet group which was responsible for protecting the fleet's mothership.

The DYRL? Meltrandi Army warships are not said or shown to be more technologically advanced than their Zentradi counterparts, merely built around a different technological school of thought. The DYRL? Zentradi use a lot of organic design aesthetics and a portion of their technology actually has organic components, while the Meltrandi use purely inorganic technology. On most levels their technology is functionally identical. (If one looks to the Macross II timeline, for which DYRL? is canon, Zentran and Meltran overtechnology is actually compatible to the extent that most human ships in that "parallel world" combine them freely.)

Edited September 16, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[jenius]

I haven't seen the show in a while but wasn't there some surprise and disgust when the Zentraedi realized they were 'devil dolls' or something like that? Like, maybe that used to be common knowledge amongst the Zentraedi but over the hundreds of thousands of years and the potential extinction of Protoculture the Zentraedi had forgotten that?

[Bolt]

Why is there no SINGLE source like an Encyclopedia or Compendium that covers all this??

[Mr March]

There is. Egan Loo's brilliant Macross Compendium covers a lot of this material. It's where 99% of us get our Macross information. WIthout it, most English-speaking Macross fans would be lost.

I'm always adding to the Macrosspedia on my own website (including a massive revision/corrections update coming soon), but it's mostly mechanical/production focused to suit the content of my website.

Given that Macross sites/fansites have always been in damned short supply, perhaps an motivated Macross fan could build something to fill in any gaps?

[Seto Kaiba]

Why is there no SINGLE source like an Encyclopedia or Compendium that covers all this??

There is. It's called Macross Chronicle... and it's about 2,560 pages long.

[Bolt]

I knew you were gonna say that😠

[Paladinrja]

Thanks for all the replies guys. Its great to see anyone actually wants to discuss this stuff. Most people don't seem to want to get into the backdrop story and its starting get important that we do. I get that Kawamori-san has always been mostly concerned with the foreground characters and the human stories but the backdrop is some pretty impactful and deep stuff.

Alot of which seems to be lost on all these people that want to write themselves into the Macross story in things like Wiki etc. I have pored over it all and personally, I have only ever watched Macross everything in Japanese and dicussed it with Japanese fans (of which there are many).

In the past, most fansite just seemed to want to be absorbed with ragging on Robotech fans which is absurd because its a totally different story that was built by three otherwise unrelated anime that each had their own following. Kinda like everyone goes nuts about the correlation between Five Star Stories and L-Gaim or Dunbine TV vs OAV in Japan Or which part of what series of Transformers is and is not part of the cannon. Who cares? Its all fun isn't it? I reckon just discuss the stories you are into and not worry about what other enjoy. Its a good thing that one series can essentially have the same story told and be enjoyed by so many fans. Robotechs second story Souther Cross kinda evolves its own story but Macross is another matter.

Thats primarily why I started this thread, to discuss all the loop holes and not simply conform to what is a constantly evolving story. In Japan they don't make a big deal about what is different between DYRL? and Macross '83. The director said it was superficial and it really is if you sit and jot down the points.

For instance, how does anyone even get Boddle Zer? Phonetically its very syllibalistic Bo-dol--za and Seto Kaiba its makes no sense, "fleet of the strongest women" when the Japanese use of 'strongest' is more like the western word 'Super' and 'women', implying 'chicks' more than women as a pure gender. Also Kawamori-san never said that the truth between DYRL? and TV '83 is somewhere in the middle at all. He said that both are true because both are essentially the same story. There is no disputing that, that is the case.

That episode with Commander Chlore did indeed come in Encore and its very clearly set after the events where Gepnichi transforms into a an Angel and the Protodevlin discover they can transform into self sufficient beings in this dimension thanks to Anima spiritia, or rather that the "spiritia that never ends" that is not necessarily deadly to them but "over powering" was also the catalyst that enables them to exist in this space time. At the end of "Fleet of the strongest women" the caption is "...To be Fire". That signals the end of M7.

Visually, everything about Macross does indeed follow on from DYRL? but they have also managed to merge the storyline of TV '83 with DYRL? very well in M7. What I am trying to get input on is this insight I have recently fallen upon (because I just got through everything up to end of M7) is how this all changes the organization of the Zentradi progressively through the cannon. Otherwise every other explanation retconns every other explanation.

Its also implied and stated throughout the series that something divided the Protoculture galactic government and that the Zentradi actually fought against them. Whilst its true that during the events of the original story (TV '83 & DYRL?) the Zentradi were not supposed to mess with protoculture. Bodol-za actually believed that was because there was no more Protoculture anything to be messed with. It wasn't until they chased down the Macross to Earth and the fact that it had been repaired by humans that there was any cause for actual concern. This is clear.

That schism didn't just affect the Protoculure government. It actually affected the Zentradi as well whom took sides. Whats implied is that they were split in their loyalties, some with a faction of Protoculture became the supervision army and some remained as they were. What isn't clear is that the what inspired the faction of the supervision army. I suspect this is because Protodevlins possessed certain individuals within the Protocultural politics and created that schism. The protoculture was directly responsible for hardnessing a new type of energy that created a rift and allowed Protodevlins into this space time. One that could not accommodate them except through spiritia farming/dreaming. One side or the other discovered animas spiritia had an overwhelming impact on them and they were imprisoned in crustal cages and buried on Varuta but not before almost creating a spiritia black hole.

This makes me think that over 100's of thousands of years the Zentradi, with no culture of their own, just did what soldiers do. They stick to the point of what they are doing and don't get bogged down in the details. However, they had the presence of mind to have functionaries that were archivists. Even they seemed unclear about what had actually gone on in their history and subsequently ended up losing a lot of that lore.

Lap Lamiz does indeed often make derrogatory remarks about the Zentradi males. Especially Kamujin whom, although not being overly fond of culture, found him too easy to manipulate. She was also very suspicious of Britai's re-appointment and didn't seem to understand that Bodol-za pulled his fleet out of Earth space because he feared they were contaminated by suspected Protoculture. So no, the Zentradi are not at all ok with Protoculture. No concept of freedom, they STILL didn't seem to like the idea that they were merely tools. Although, that is true, its not as if the Protoculture were tyranical in any way. Something must have incited them to believe it was not in their best interest otherwise the schism wars would never have ensued.

I said existentialism fundamentalists. This is because such a highly evolved race, that evolved so fast (seemingly in a matter of 4000yrs and for a period of near 500,000yrs, would definitely be more absorbed with individual existence and their place in a greater scheme than anything else and most likely why they would be vulnerable to any kind of pure facism which I feel is what likely is being implied along with possession of key persons within the protocultural political makeup and eventually resulted in the schism wars.

[Paladinrja]

There is. It's called Macross Chronicle... and it's about 2,560 pages long.

Which itself is basically a compendium of all the compendiums which have released over the years (I have most and all the Gundam bibles as well as a few other series I was into) Its kinda got a lot of loopholes as those compendiums were all released via series and other off shoot business and not predictive but kinda dependent on the story so far. They don't give much insight into the actual story. Most were just for things like mecha files and character works/bio's and the like. The meat of Macross is in the story within the anime. I don't actually think there is a critical source for the pre-history.

I've had the "This is Animation" stuff for 20yrs and a buncha others. I have every Gundam pocket Bible as well and Even MS Era and various Mikimoto art books. Three cartons of this stuff. Even the two pocket books, movie companions for DYRL? set out like comics using cells from the movie (2 part). A lot of that stuff is regurgitated from all sorts of sources including inlays packaged with Model kits.

Getting into a critical Macross source (at this point in time) is actually a huge undertaking where the story is concerned. The simple stuff like mecha specs and different craft etc... is already well fleshed out.

There is actually very little about the pre-history societies or even the new age societies that are depicted in the various Anime. That requires some actual study and interpretation from the anime in two languages. There is no critical written source for this, the socialization of either period, nothing to bridge it all together only whats in the anime and what real life helps us understand about what might be going on.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Paladinrja

[Seto Kaiba]

I knew you were gonna say that😠

But do you know why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch? Or how many licks it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie-roll pop?

Dammit man, I need answers!

For instance, how does anyone even get Boddle Zer? Phonetically its very syllibalistic Bo-dol--za and Seto Kaiba its makes no sense, "fleet of the strongest women" when the Japanese use of 'strongest' is more like the western word 'Super' and 'women', implying 'chicks' more than women as a pure gender. Also Kawamori-san never said that the truth between DYRL? and TV '83 is somewhere in the middle at all. He said that both are true because both are essentially the same story. There is no disputing that, that is the case.

You do know that there are official romanizations for a lot of the names published in Japanese sources, right?

As far as "Fleet of the Strongest Women" goes, that's the most literal translation of the episode title: 最強女の艦隊.

And, for the record, that the truth is somewhere between DYRL? and the original series has been Kawamori's boilerplate response to continuity questions about them for ages...

That episode with Commander Chlore did indeed come in Encore and its very clearly set after the events where Gepnichi transforms into a an Angel and the Protodevlin discover they can transform into self sufficient beings in this dimension thanks to Anima spiritia, or rather that the "spiritia that never ends" that is not necessarily deadly to them but "over powering" was also the catalyst that enables them to exist in this space time.

From the story cues in the three unaired episodes, they take place around episode 40 in the series... not after the end.

The most obvious piece of evidence that disproves your position is that the Battle 7 is still in one piece in "Fleet of the Strongest Women"... it was destroyed in the series finale of Macross 7 and was still under construction more than a year later in Dynamite 7.

Additionally, that's not the definition of anima spiritia. Its official definition is spiritia with a "bipolar nature" that its generator controls the polarity of, which is damaging to the Protodeviln. (Also used to refer to people who can produce this bipolar spiritia.)

At the end of "Fleet of the strongest women" the caption is "...To be Fire". That signals the end of M7.

No, that just means the unaired episode has something different at the end... see the above for why your position is impossible WRT the series narrative.

Visually, everything about Macross does indeed follow on from DYRL? but they have also managed to merge the storyline of TV '83 with DYRL? very well in M7. What I am trying to get input on is this insight I have recently fallen upon (because I just got through everything up to end of M7) is how this all changes the organization of the Zentradi progressively through the cannon. Otherwise every other explanation retconns every other explanation.

*sigh* That's demonstrably not true... there are just as many aesthetics retained from the original series as there are from DYRL? in Macross's sequels. Take, for instance, the filming of "Lynn Minmay Story" in-universe in Macross 7... the Zentradi actors are in costume for a TV series Quamzin and a DYRL? Vrlitwhai. Or the action on Galia 4 in Macross Frontier, where we see Zentradi in armor from DYRL? and the TV series side by side. Or, heck, Milia's TV series VF-1 showing up in Macross 7 repeatedly.

In other cases, there are official explanations for the changes in aesthetic between the TV series and DYRL?... such as the VF-1's appearance being two different production blocks (the DYRL? version being a postwar block), or Exsedol's DYRL? appearance in Macross 7 being the result of him abandoning life as a miclone for fear of losing his memories and cerebral capacity. It is not, and never has been, a simple case of DYRL? aesthetics replacing everything from the series.

Its also implied and stated throughout the series that something divided the Protoculture galactic government and that the Zentradi actually fought against them.

No, it is not. They lost control of the Zentradi as their civilization dwindled in the aftermath of the war with the Supervision Army, but that's different. It's specifically noted in the chronology materials that the Zentradi had trouble engaging the Supervision Army specifically because they'd been indoctrinated to "not interfere with the Protoculture", and the Supervision Army was made up in part of brainwashed Protoculture under the control of the Protodeviln.

That schism didn't just affect the Protoculure government. It actually affected the Zentradi as well whom took sides. Whats implied is that they were split in their loyalties, some with a faction of Protoculture became the supervision army and some remained as they were. What isn't clear is that the what inspired the faction of the supervision army.

The Zentradi did fight in the schism war, yes... but it's a key plot point in Macross 7 and thoroughly explained in Macross's official publications that the Supervision Army was formed by the Protodeviln using spiritia-drained and brainwashed Protoculture and the local Zentradi forces of the advanced planet where the Evil-series weapons were developed (the ice planet in the Varauta system).

I suspect this is because Protodevlins possessed certain individuals within the Protocultural politics and created that schism.

This is explicitly not the case... the Evil-series bio-weapon bodies that drew the Protodeviln into the material universe were made as weapons to fight the schism war, and they were not drawn into our universe and those bodies by the testing accident until PC 2871, at which point the schism war had been going on for at least 11 years.

The cause of the schism conflict is given in official chronology as over-expansion in the Stellar Republic leading to internal conflicts.

Lap Lamiz does indeed often make derrogatory remarks about the Zentradi males. Especially Kamujin whom, although not being overly fond of culture, found him too easy to manipulate. She was also very suspicious of Britai's re-appointment and didn't seem to understand that Bodol-za pulled his fleet out of Earth space because he feared they were contaminated by suspected Protoculture. So no, the Zentradi are not at all ok with Protoculture.

You're arguing against a point nobody made... I said the Zentradi were not averse to coexisting with their opposite genders in the course of duty. There is professional rivalry, jockeying for power, and a fair amount of richly-deserved contempt for Quamzin on both sides due to his belief that orders and rules are something that happen to other soldiers, but the males don't hate the females or vice versa.

They absolutely were uneasy about the idea of encountering the Protoculture again because, as Exsedol reminds Vrlitwhai when they discover that Earth's population are miclones, they had ancient orders warning them that nothing good will come from them mixing with miclones or interfering with the Protoculture... which was, itself, Protoculture conditioning to prevent them from trying to focus on non-military pursuits.

I said existentialism fundamentalists. This is because such a highly evolved race, that evolved so fast (seemingly in a matter of 4000yrs and for a period of near 500,000yrs, would definitely be more absorbed with individual existence and their place in a greater scheme than anything else and most likely why they would be vulnerable to any kind of pure facism which I feel is what likely is being implied along with possession of key persons within the protocultural political makeup and eventually resulted in the schism wars.

That has no basis in anything in Macross...

The meat of Macross is in the story within the anime. I don't actually think there is a critical source for the pre-history.

There's a LOT more done with Macross's setting than just what's in the anime... both narratively and in terms of setting explanation in official publications. Just because you aren't aware of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Paladinrja]

Anyway...

The discussion is the historical speculation surrounding an inter-stellar nomadic warrior race, with obvious social issues and no culture and its impact on the Macross universe, that has no clear interpretation. The idea is to cast aside what has been documented and rebuild it in context to the story. What people think may have happened and how that correlates to the ongoing story.

[Gubaba]

Why throw out what's been documented?

[JB0]

Taking note of the fact that Kawamori-san said that the differences in the story between the TV series of Macross ('83) and the Movie were just superficial and based on a time constraint. That the essential story is the same (which is true, they only really cut a lot of visual elements and time from the TV series but basically retold all the fundamental points with all critical characters and VA reprising roles).

If I recall the quote you're thinking of, he said the differences in story were because one would naturally tell a story differently for a movie than for a TV series. It was also stated at a time when the typical fan was not wildly obsessive about the canonicity of a given feature and how "real" it was.

It was obviously never intended to mean "these are the exact same story", which they rather clearly aren't except in the broadest sense(a love triangle against the backdrop of aliens wrecking Earth's crap just because humanity got caught in their crossfire).

the Zentradi campaign against Earth (which was through to include ALL elements of the Zentradi fleet but it seems that between the sexes there is a certain amount of autonomy).

All elements of the Bodol fleet. Not all zentradi ships ever. That was made clear enough in the TV series when they captured a well-defended factory satellite, and if I recall the movie flat-out states "but there's a few thousand more such fleets out there so we totally can't relax now guys."

Bodol-za purposefully kept information from the Meltran in order to keep them suspicious and so that they would have to fight for that information.

OF COURSE Chlore knew nothing of what actually happened during the Sol operation.

What could it POSSIBLY profit Bodol to advertise to another fleet that his own fleet had been contaminated to some degree? That elements of Britai's fleet mutinied to demand an armistice? That Britai ACCEPTED this farcical motion and DID pursue a cease-fire? Most damningly, that he himself had directly witnessed an act of culture similar to the ones that had corrupted Britai's fleet??

No, he would have had no choice but to lie his gigantic backside off about the actual state of affairs in the Sol system. He couldn't hide a full-fleet deployment, but reporting the accurate details surrounding it would only invite action against him, likely extermination of the sort he attempted to deliver to Britai. Every fleet available would've come to help atomize his entire command.

In short, what happens in the Sol system STAYS in the Sol system.

Thus when humans from the Macross were captured in DYRL the Meltran were forced to infiltrate the Zentran vessel in order to gain knowledge that Bodol-za wasn't prepared to share just yet

He had but scant knowledge of the protoculture himself, and needed confirmation of his suspicions before he was going to start sharing those few nuggets of classified information. It's not a complex chain of logic.

but in the TV series, we see Lap Lamiz was mysteriously brought in to take over from Britai when he was removed from the human sector due to suspected Protoculture contamination.

Also because Britai had been getting his crap WRECKED by a single gunship, lacking an escort fleet, manned by primitives from a backwater planet that had never even left their own star system before. And MICLONE primitives at that!

[mickyg]

JB0 - you totally need to write a synopsis of every macross episode and movie ever! Seriously, your writing style and methods are so spot on and entertaining, I for one, would read every word!

Plus, a synopsis of the series would help me sell macross to my uninitiated friends better.

Seriously though, I love your perspective and ability to sum it up so well.

[JB0]

JB0 - you totally need to write a synopsis of every macross episode and movie ever! Seriously, your writing style and methods are so spot on and entertaining, I for one, would read every word!

Plus, a synopsis of the series would help me sell macross to my uninitiated friends better.

Seriously though, I love your perspective and ability to sum it up so well.

You know, I may sit down and synopsisize/ponder key episodes and arcs at some point.

But really, some episodes there's not a lot to say about.

I like what Global Report does with the framing scenes and dialog, but it's still mostly a clip episode for those who came in late.

And the most fun parts to write in my rambling are where it veers off into rampant speculation.

I mean, I ASSUME Bodol would lie in any reports to other fleets(or his superiors, if any exist), but I don't think that's really CANON to the same degree I laid it out. Chlore's information being so spotty DOES make me happy, though. It makes it clear, in-continuity, that he didn't tell his peers the whole story. But it doesn't really confirm he actively falsified updates to save his own skin/fleet.

In any case, I'm about at the midpoint of a rewatch with some people, one of whom has never seen the show, and I'm struck how harsh the show is at this particular juncture. Focker dies, Kakizaki dies, and the Macross is banished from the Earth... in three consecutive episodes.

But I AM pleased to note that said Macross newbie was blindsided by Focker's death last week. From the first post-battle hints that all is not well, right up until Misa breaks the news to Hikaru, dude's sitting there going "Nice fakeout, guys. But we all know Focker won't die. He's too cool, he's got plot immunity." That plan still pays out three decades later. So when you DO sell those friends on this... they're gonna miss Roy too.

[Gubaba]

I'm planning on doing such a thing, soon.

JB0, would you at least be an assistant? I'll credit you for all the clever bits.

[JB0]

I promise to share any brilliant insights/off-the-wall quackery that comes up.

I'd rather not have a formal stake in it, as "on-demand" writing has always been difficult for me.

[Gubaba]

*spits in hand* Deal!

[Paladinrja]

Why throw out what's been documented?

Meta. "Cast it aside and rebuild" is what I said. Not come in and make trouble. Just so you know what Seto's problem actually is, it has nothing to do with this thread and everything to do with the fact he feels personally affronted by my appraisal over M2. Thats his problem.

If I recall the quote you're thinking of, he said the differences in story were because one would naturally tell a story differently for a movie than for a TV series. It was also stated at a time when the typical fan was not wildly obsessive about the canonicity of a given feature and how "real" it was.

It was obviously never intended to mean "these are the exact same story", which they rather clearly aren't except in the broadest sense(a love triangle against the backdrop of aliens wrecking Earth's crap just because humanity got caught in their crossfire).

Yep, thats what I am quoting but I am not obsessing over the canonicity at all. In both cases the Zentradi are very definitely chasing the Macross. I just see the different depictions of their social makeup as two points of the same element. At worst, DYRL? is fan service.

All elements of the Bodol fleet. Not all zentradi ships ever. That was made clear enough in the TV series when they captured a well-defended factory satellite, and if I recall the movie flat-out states "but there's a few thousand more such fleets out there so we totally can't relax now guys."

Hahaha Sure why not, its implied yes. I'm not so sure that implication pertains to a few thousand more 4+ million strong fleets with attached Supreme Commander.. Bodol-za is supposed to be their Supreme Commander (lets not forget) This has stronger implications.

OF COURSE Chlore knew nothing of what actually happened during the Sol operation.

Well she very obviously did, didn't she, mate? "Britai the Backstabber"; whats even more interesting is that nor she, nor Advisory Tranq'eul seem to care all that much at all. Tranq'el seems to hold Exedol in high esteem however, which is another fascinating point. They have no culture and thus no social structure, but believe their historians hold special status regardless, its almost whimsy. Their entire organization is specifically hierarchial and military.

He had but scant knowledge of the protoculture himself, and needed confirmation of his suspicions before he was going to start sharing those few nuggets of classified information. It's not a complex chain of logic.

Hardly, its fairly obvious Supreme Commander Bodol-za knew more than he was willing to let on, regardless of the TV series or the movie. The gist I got was that he needed confirmation as to what extent these aliens in possession of technology that vastly differs from anything else they own is impactful (but somehow manage to fix their quarry and even *ghasp* can use it! deculture!).

Also because Britai had been getting his crap WRECKED by a single gunship, lacking an escort fleet, manned by primitives from a backwater planet that had never even left their own star system before. And MICLONE primitives at that!

I don't think the Supervision Army and the Zentradi are evenly matched at all. Britia's directives were to confirm and/or capture the crashed ship. Not destroy the planet and its occupants. Their science seems to stop at analysis, not provide them with the ability to repair or innovate tech. Which implies that the ships occupants were the real motive. The movie re-organizes the relationships between the main characters from Earth but does away with Booby trap etc.. but its still made obvious that these events occurred and begins at the Sol system rim. The island has been warped and 50+ thousand residents exist in the guts of Macross. All they really did was speed it along and they do this everywhere.

The UN didn't wipe out every detachment that assaulted Earth, whether you take that event to occur in the Movie (whilst the Macross was rim system) or from the TV series after they returned to Earth. I think that its common for Meltran to accost Zentran for info, thus no matter how you view the actual event of the destruction of Earth and subsequent destruction of the main Zentradi fleet and Supreme Commander. No doubt would have come across elements escaping either the battle for Earth or fleeing the destruction of Bodol-za's fortress and their SC; and subsequently learned of events.

In a spartan society, due to social and cultural makeup, women played a supportive role and everyone knew their job. In the case of Macross, women play an active role. This would put them at odds with the men on every level. There are no limitations of reproduction, no science, no social interaction and no culture developed to bind them.

Thus I feel that Meltran only acquiesce to work directly with Zentran when they either get what they want or feel that their hierarchy is threatened to extinction in some manner. Just like a woman I guess.. if we were all cavemen with no sex drives and an advanced military hierarchy.

[JB0]

Hahaha Sure why not, its implied yes. I'm not so sure that implication pertains to a few thousand more 4+ million strong fleets with attached Supreme Commander.. Bodol-za is supposed to be their Supreme Commander (lets not forget) This has stronger implications.

He's the supreme commander of the Bodol fleet. There's a strong implication other major fleets exist even in the TV show. Why else would everyone automatically leave once their command ship is destroyed? Their entire society is regimented military. It makes more sense to stick together and forge a new fleet, not to bug out and become wandering space nomads.

Well she very obviously did, didn't she, mate? "Britai the Backstabber"; whats even more interesting is that nor she, nor Advisory Tranq'eul seem to care all that much at all. Tranq'el seems to hold Exedol in high esteem however, which is another fascinating point. They have no culture and thus no social structure, but believe their historians hold special status regardless, its almost whimsy. Their entire organization is specifically hierarchial and military.

You're the one that pointed out she DIDN'T seem to know the details of what went down. I agreed, and pointed out that's less likely "because sexism" and more likely because Bodol HAD to keep the exact nature of events a secret. Britai mutinied? Sure, tell 'em. They'll probably wonder what happened to ol' buckethead anyways. The fleet was contaminated with the culture? No one must ever suspect.

And, well, they DO have a social structure.

Historians ARE important to the zentradi, as they are the keepers of knowledge. If a commander needs to know something, they don't look it up on their computer or dig through a pile of books. They ask their archivist. The archivist knows, and can far more readily filter and relate the knowledge to current events than a simple machine could. There's nothing whimsical about it, just a healthy respect for the advantage of knowledge.

I don't think the Supervision Army and the Zentradi are evenly matched at all. Britia's directives were to confirm and/or capture the crashed ship. Not destroy the planet and its occupants. Their science seems to stop at analysis, not provide them with the ability to repair or innovate tech. Which implies that the ships occupants were the real motive.

As I recall the TV series, they were laboring under the assumption that the ship had advanced self-repair capabilities. The concept of being able to repair your vehicle with your own hands was fundamentally foreign to them.

Also, they wanted the reaction weaponry.

The idea that the people were important to the ship's repairs and armaments was not one they had in mind.

But the point is, Britai was explicitly recalled in the TV series because of how much trouble he'd had dealing with the Macross. His assignment was simple, he vastly outnumbered and outgunned the enemy, why had he lost so much and still failed to captured their vessel?

The UN didn't wipe out every detachment that assaulted Earth, whether you take that event to occur in the Movie (whilst the Macross was rim system) or from the TV series after they returned to Earth. I think that its common for Meltran to accost Zentran for info, thus no matter how you view the actual event of the destruction of Earth and subsequent destruction of the main Zentradi fleet and Supreme Commander. No doubt would have come across elements escaping either the battle for Earth or fleeing the destruction of Bodol-za's fortress and their SC; and subsequently learned of events.

Anyone the escaping fleet linked up with would learn what THOSE SHIPS knew. NO ONE was to know the depth of the problem. The rebels knew, Bodol knew, MAYBE the highest command level under him knew(but not likely). There was no need to tell his subordinates anything other than "Britai's fleet turned traitor. We're killing them, and turning the planet they're defending to glass."

And the ladies wouldn't have to force the information out of the dudes in the TV series. They were all on the same side, though they never interacted face-to-face.

In a spartan society, due to social and cultural makeup, women played a supportive role and everyone knew their job. In the case of Macross, women play an active role. This would put them at odds with the men on every level. There are no limitations of reproduction, no science, no social interaction and no culture developed to bind them.

Thus I feel that Meltran only acquiesce to work directly with Zentran when they either get what they want or feel that their hierarchy is threatened to extinction in some manner. Just like a woman I guess.. if we were all cavemen with no sex drives and an advanced military hierarchy.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[Paladinrja]

He's the supreme commander of the Bodol fleet. There's a strong implication other major fleets exist even in the TV show. Why else would everyone automatically leave once their command ship is destroyed? Their entire society is regimented military. It makes more sense to stick together and forge a new fleet, not to bug out and become wandering space nomads.

Supreme Commander implies Supreme Commander, is doesn't ever imply any kind of subordinate. They bugged out because who knew that brute force could lose out to what they considered a primitive race that is beneath them. Fear is a basic instinct. It happens when we feel we are challenged.

And, well, they DO have a social structure.

Historians ARE important to the zentradi, as they are the keepers of knowledge. If a commander needs to know something, they don't look it up on their computer or dig through a pile of books. They ask their archivist. The archivist knows, and can far more readily filter and relate the knowledge to current events than a simple machine could. There's nothing whimsical about it, just a healthy respect for the advantage of knowledge.

My point about whimsy is that its the only stature of importance outside of a military rank. Socially, this is bare bones and whimsical. Its pseudo-social. Add to that, do you know what a bevvy of facts without the cognitive process required to extrapolate and apply that knowledge is? Its bunk.

Spitting factoids is great when you simply trying to identify something.. otherwise its just telling others what they already know and lends NOTHING to an investigative/creative process. Granted that in the case of the Zentradi, they don't seem to store knowledge individually and that is no revelation, they rely on specific individuals to supply proxy a knowledge base. Its just a job there is nothing quantum about it and is more about necessity than any epiphanous processes.

As I recall the TV series, they were laboring under the assumption that the ship had advanced self-repair capabilities. The concept of being able to repair your vehicle with your own hands was fundamentally foreign to them.

Also, they wanted the reaction weaponry.

The idea that the people were important to the ship's repairs and armaments was not one they had in mind.

But the point is, Britai was explicitly recalled in the TV series because of how much trouble he'd had dealing with the Macross. His assignment was simple, he vastly outnumbered and outgunned the enemy, why had he lost so much and still failed to captured their vessel?

Nope, the conversation between Britai and Exedol actually went something along the lines of Britai stating the that a species with no obvious organisation in their deployment must therefore be primitive and then identified the Supervision gunship. Exedol's reply was that its not in his records and specifically resembles the tech application and implementation of our species in general. Britia then stumbles over the preposterous notion that we have somehow restored it?!

Zentradi don't repair anything. Their units from man to machine are entirely disposable and automated as is their operations, ships and even applied knowledge processes. This is an army that has one sole purpose. To fight by operating thing, to fight by proxy. Everything surrounding them has already been decided and facilitates their needs. ~ There is no manual override.

The difficulty Britia was facing and why he was recalled to Bodol-za was specifically because the SC had already clearly decided that Protoculture was contaminating his detachment. There was even a point that Bodol-za had commented on Britai's change in communication. Which would no doubt resonate within a society of people where everyone does everything the same way. The essence of protocultural contamination is simply Bodol-za's inability to maintain control of such a large body of troops and operations. Zentradi only work as a body as long as everything is linear, not only within their own ranks but propositionally. If not, then its clear that Macross and Earth would have been wiped out during 'Booby Trap' in the TV series and oversight that was solved in the Movie. Earth was wiped out whilst Macross was at the system rim with Britia's detachment in hot pursuit.

Anyone the escaping fleet linked up with would learn what THOSE SHIPS knew.

Every body knew in that operation. The whole culture shock thing reverberated throughout the Zentran fleet. Some were slower on the uptake than others. Bodol-za got creamed the rest ran for the inter-stellar hills. Face facts.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

It is, because it OUR history I am drawing insight from. I could be wrong but I don't remember implying that Commander Chlore was ignorant of what happened in our system? She definitely seems to know of the miclones and what happened in that battle and was initially quite happy to wipe out Colony 7. What I said she seemed ignorant of was that whilst Tranq'el was citing Exedol neither seemed to realise he was actually on Battle 7.

[JB0]

They didn't run in fear. They ran because it was protocol. That was the whole plan, Exedol told everyone this on camera, it isn't a secret hidden in a decades-out-of-print reference book.

[Seto Kaiba]

All elements of the Bodol fleet. Not all zentradi ships ever. That was made clear enough in the TV series when they captured a well-defended factory satellite, and if I recall the movie flat-out states "but there's a few thousand more such fleets out there so we totally can't relax now guys."

So does the series... and Macross Chronicle... and pretty much every other Macross work to talk about the Zentradi as a whole. The exact number varies a bit, but it's between 1 and 3 thousand fleets, of which Boddole Zer's was just one. (Which one also varies... his was the 118th in the series, and the 425th in the movie.)

Meta. "Cast it aside and rebuild" is what I said. Not come in and make trouble. Just so you know what Seto's problem actually is, it has nothing to do with this thread and everything to do with the fact he feels personally affronted by my appraisal over M2. Thats his problem.

The attempted character assassination is cute, but inaccurate... the general problem with your posts is a tragic near-total absence of accuracy, to the extent that I have a difficult time believing you've ever actually seen some of these shows.

Hahaha Sure why not, its implied yes. I'm not so sure that implication pertains to a few thousand more 4+ million strong fleets with attached Supreme Commander.. Bodol-za is supposed to be their Supreme Commander (lets not forget) This has stronger implications.

Boddole Zer is never described as the "supreme commander" of the Zentradi Army as a whole... only as the commander of the 118th Main Fleet, or as the mobile fortress/commander of the 425th in DYRL?.

(We've seen several other characters of comparable rank and responsibility in Macross.)

In a spartan society, due to social and cultural makeup, women played a supportive role and everyone knew their job. In the case of Macross, women play an active role. This would put them at odds with the men on every level. There are no limitations of reproduction, no science, no social interaction and no culture developed to bind them.

Thus I feel that Meltran only acquiesce to work directly with Zentran when they either get what they want or feel that their hierarchy is threatened to extinction in some manner. Just like a woman I guess.. if we were all cavemen with no sex drives and an advanced military hierarchy.

The Zentradi Army is a military, not a culture... and the women are presented, officially, as being just another form of clone soldier in all official sources. Elite forces, in point of fact, as they were developed near the end of the schism war specifically to operate a new high-performance battle suit called the Queadluun-Rau.

There's a strong implication other major fleets exist even in the TV show. Why else would everyone automatically leave once their command ship is destroyed? Their entire society is regimented military. It makes more sense to stick together and forge a new fleet, not to bug out and become wandering space nomads.

It's not so much implied as directly stated, but yeah... there are several thousand more main fleets out and about in the galaxy. The mechanic sheet for the Fulbtzs Berrentzs-class mothership indicates there are between 2 and 3 thousand fleets of several hundred thousand to several million ships still operating. If there was one mothership per fleet, there may have once been as many as 5,000 main fleets at the Zentradi Army's peak.

Supreme Commander implies Supreme Commander, is doesn't ever imply any kind of subordinate.

He's not actually referred to as a "Supreme Commander", except in Robotech...

They bugged out because who knew that brute force could lose out to what they considered a primitive race that is beneath them. Fear is a basic instinct. It happens when we feel we are challenged.

That's also not accurate. Refer to Macross Ep.26, in which Exsedol briefs the UN Spacy on the 118th Main Fleet's organization and tactics. One of the things he tells them is to focus on the command ships of each group, because SOP is for a branch fleet to retreat if they've lost their command ship.

The ~3 million surviving ships of the 118th Main Fleet didn't flee because they were afraid of anything, they withdrew from the battle zone because the subordinate commanders followed standard Zentradi tactical doctrine and withdrew after the command ships for each unit were sunk, a withdraw that became a rout after their chain of command was decapitated in a spectacular fashion by the destruction of the fleet's mothership.

[Paladinrja]

The attempted character assassination is cute, but inaccurate... the general problem with your posts is a tragic near-total absence of accuracy, to the extent that I have a difficult time believing you've ever actually seen some of these shows.

Heh is that what it was? I call it an observation. Sorry you are not that important to me and I don't care for your denials on the back of commonly known recital. So far, you have only derailed a thread based on speculation because the idea of speculation causes you severe issues. A normal person would have just left.

He's not actually referred to as a "Supreme Commander", except in Robotech..

Lord, SC, CiC whatever you like. In the Japanese language its all the same.

That's also not accurate. Refer to Macross Ep.26, in which Exsedol briefs the UN Spacy on the 118th Main Fleet's organization and tactics. One of the things he tells them is to focus on the command ships of each group, because SOP is for a branch fleet to retreat if they've lost their command ship.

The ~3 million surviving ships of the 118th Main Fleet didn't flee because they were afraid of anything, they withdrew from the battle zone because the subordinate commanders followed standard Zentradi tactical doctrine and withdrew after the command ships for each unit were sunk, a withdraw that became a rout after their chain of command was decapitated in a spectacular fashion by the destruction of the fleet's mothership.

Yes this is true, the "crush the head of the snake" negotiation. Perhaps though, your interpretation of 'fleet' and subsequently its organization is, like most other things you seem to want to get stuck on and is altogether a little TOO literal. A 'fleet' in the Zentradi hierarchy denotes even the smallest detachment. Fact remains that although Exedol does call the offensive the Bodol fleet, any mass armada under the CiC is going to be designated the main fleet isn't it?

You then state it has a numerical designation? All main battle groups take their designation from the oldest regiment closest to the highest level of the command hierarchy, which is also usually the largest and most diverse. Unless of course the battalion has been wiped out at some stage and then its given a new designation in the same battalion.

You say its actually written somewhere that there are many such groups? I find that hard to believe. Purely because you don't lose an entire task force battle group of near 5 million and there are no repurcussions. No doubt there are other fleets, especially given most of this one has a standing order to escape and evade but it doesn't take 50+ yrs to reorganize and thats really one of the points that could be discussed in this thread after establishing what the association between Zentran and Meltran actually is and why both the TV series and the Movie have cooperative points about what the Zentradi actually are; and what they are without an echelon, is quite simply rogue and disorganized.

You are right about the retreat organization but its an emergency measure based on little more than an escape and evasion plan and put in place solely because no ship under a certain rank has knowledge of, part or overall, of the battle plan and thus no measure could be in place to reorganize the battle group.

This is also an answer of where I am coming from for your post as well JB0

[Seto Kaiba]

So far, you have only derailed a thread based on speculation because the idea of speculation causes you severe issues. A normal person would have just left.

You opened with a series of demonstrably incorrect assertions that you presented as factual, which anyone who'd actually seen the shows would spot for falsehoods right away... before launching into a downward spiral of gibberish that doesn't actually line up with anything in the official Macross setting or chronology.

If it were speculation it'd be one thing, but you presented your... views... as not just fact, but alleged common knowledge.

Lord, SC, CiC whatever you like. In the Japanese language its all the same.

No, it really isn't... Lord is 卿 (Kyou), Supreme Commander is 最高司令官 (Saikou shirei-kan), and the title given for Boddole Zer is 司令長官 (Shirei choukan).

Yes this is true, the "crush the head of the snake" negotiation. Perhaps though, your interpretation of 'fleet' and subsequently its organization is, like most other things you seem to want to get stuck on and is altogether a little TOO literal. A 'fleet' in the Zentradi hierarchy denotes even the smallest detachment. Fact remains that although Exedol does call the offensive the Bodol fleet, any mass armada under the CiC is going to be designated the main fleet isn't it?

No, it's taken directly from the show and official published materials... Exsedol even shows them a chart to indicate what level of the chain of command they can do the most damage at by taking out the various fleet commanders. Yes, a Zentradi main fleet is made up of multiple smaller fleets of varying sizes... the branch fleets, direct defense fleets, and what have you. The smallest unit that is presented is not designated a fleet, however, it's the "division" (specifically Quamzin's 7th Aerial Armored Division from the Boddole Zer main fleet's 109th branch fleet).

Officially, the "main fleets" are the collections of smaller fleets attached to a mothership or mobile fortress... thought that is effectively placing them under the command of the main fleet's commander.

You then state it has a numerical designation? All main battle groups take their designation from the oldest regiment closest to the highest level of the command hierarchy, which is also usually the largest and most diverse. Unless of course the battalion has been wiped out at some stage and then its given a new designation in the same battalion.

It's explicitly referenced in dialog multiple times, and the official printed materials as well.

Your attempt to dismiss the fact is, however, explicitly not correct based on the official Macross materials. The main fleet is not said to have taken its number from anything except the number of main fleets in existence and/or order of commissioning. Like a field army, their numerical assignment is simply sequential.

You say its actually written somewhere that there are many such groups? I find that hard to believe.

It's explicitly stated in both the original Macross series and Macross: Do You Remember Love?, as well as many official Macross publications like the official encyclopedia Macross Chronicle, Variable Fighter Master File, and numerous others. There are several thousand remaining Zentradi Army main fleets varying in size from hundreds of thousands to a couple million ships... at the Zentradi Army's peak, there were five thousand Fulbtzs Berrentzs-class motherships in operation. In the modern day, there are 2-3,000 of them still kicking around.

Macross Chronicle has a fair bit to say about it, Variable Fighter Master File has a brief bit that talks about an emigrant world that was settled by one of the smaller emigrant fleets being attacked and obliterated by one of the smaller Zentradi main fleets, and so on...

(In the Macross II timeline, the UN Spacy encounters four more Zentradi Army main fleets and another Meltrandi Army main fleet between the end of the First Space War and the Mardook invasion in 2091. Two of those invasions are featured in the prequels produced for the OVA... Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song. Admittedly, not all of those fleets found Earth entirely by accident either...)

Purely because you don't lose an entire task force battle group of near 5 million and there are no repurcussions. No doubt there are other fleets, especially given most of this one has a standing order to escape and evade but it doesn't take 50+ yrs to reorganize and thats really one of the points that could be discussed in this thread after establishing what the association between Zentran and Meltran actually is and why both the TV series and the Movie have cooperative points about what the Zentradi actually are; and what they are without an echelon, is quite simply rogue and disorganized.

With the loss of the Protoculture's orchestrating hand, the Zentradi Army's main fleets are basically independent organizations... no evidence is given for any kind of higher authority above that of the commanders of the main fleets. There were plenty of repercussions... just not for Boddole Zer, as he was too busy being dead.

The official Macross chronology mentions that the surviving elements of the defeated 118th Main Fleet is dispersed across a vast area of space thanks to the haphazard nature of their retreat. It's likely that the reason many of them didn't return to attack Earth later on is that they either concluded humans might just be the Protoculture after seeing an entire main fleet laid low like that, and equally likely is that some or all of their forces were "contaminated" by the Minmay attack and didn't want to risk being put on the chopping block by their fellows the way Boddole Zer did to Vrlitwhai, Laplamiz, and Quamzin.

(We do know that the UN Spacy has standing orders to either subdue those rogue remaining elements of the fleet via Minmay Attacks or obliterate them outright... attempts to make the Minmay Attack a more precise weapon culminated in Project M and evaluation of the VF-19 Custom by Basara in Macross 7. The Macross II official publications, OVA, and prequels also talk a bit about Earth having to periodically fight returning rogue forces left over from previous main fleets, which became such a regular event in life that it effectively was reduced to the level of spectacle by 2091... the invasion from 10 years previous that inspired Hibiki to become a journalist was one such event, and the UN Spacy clearly thought the Mardook were another rogue Zentradi group up to the point the Minmay Attack didn't work.)

[boinger]

So, can we expect a Gubaba / JB0 Macross '83 TV episode Podcast review?

(with guest commentators, too)

I was talking to HannouHeiki, formerly know as OptimusX, about how that

would be a fun podcast to hear if only somebody had the time and Macross knowledge

to make it work.

Each episode discussed by each scene.

1. character discussions (motivations / development),

2. background in-story history speculation (UN Spacy or Zentradi or Protodeviln or Protoculture)

3. showing the connections and motives of the tri-partite elements of music, mecha and romance

4. production development of the shows from the production companies (Big West, Tatsunoko, Studio Nue, etc.)

to the voice actors

e.g. fun Macross facts like how the idea for the 'Itano Circus' was developed

5. how Macross fits in the anime field at that time and how it impacted other anime shows or people

6. precedents of other anime that influenced Macross

7. about how (what, when, where?) and why and who makes Macross music so very good

etc.

Podcast titles?

Super Dimension Revue

Super Dimension Frequency (Tune in!)

Just thinking out loud.

Edited September 17, 2015 by boinger

[Gubaba]

No, I'd be just doing short write-ups about each episode.

Edited September 17, 2015 by Gubaba

[Paladinrja]

You opened with a series of demonstrably incorrect assertions that you presented as factual, which anyone who'd actually seen the shows would spot for falsehoods right away... before launching into a downward spiral of gibberish that doesn't actually line up with anything in the official Macross setting or chronology.

If it were speculation it'd be one thing, but you presented your... views... as not just fact, but alleged common knowledge.

No, it really isn't... Lord is 卿 (Kyou), Supreme Commander is 最高司令官 (Saikou shirei-kan), and the title given for Boddole Zer is 司令長官 (Shirei choukan).

No, it's taken directly from the show and official published materials... Exsedol even shows them a chart to indicate what level of the chain of command they can do the most damage at by taking out the various fleet commanders. Yes, a Zentradi main fleet is made up of multiple smaller fleets of varying sizes... the branch fleets, direct defense fleets, and what have you. The smallest unit that is presented is not designated a fleet, however, it's the "division" (specifically Quamzin's 7th Aerial Armored Division from the Boddole Zer main fleet's 109th branch fleet).

Officially, the "main fleets" are the collections of smaller fleets attached to a mothership or mobile fortress... thought that is effectively placing them under the command of the main fleet's commander.

It's explicitly referenced in dialog multiple times, and the official printed materials as well.

Your attempt to dismiss the fact is, however, explicitly not correct based on the official Macross materials. The main fleet is not said to have taken its number from anything except the number of main fleets in existence and/or order of commissioning. Like a field army, their numerical assignment is simply sequential.

It's explicitly stated in both the original Macross series and Macross: Do You Remember Love?, as well as many official Macross publications like the official encyclopedia Macross Chronicle, Variable Fighter Master File, and numerous others. There are several thousand remaining Zentradi Army main fleets varying in size from hundreds of thousands to a couple million ships... at the Zentradi Army's peak, there were five thousand Fulbtzs Berrentzs-class motherships in operation. In the modern day, there are 2-3,000 of them still kicking around.

Macross Chronicle has a fair bit to say about it, Variable Fighter Master File has a brief bit that talks about an emigrant world that was settled by one of the smaller emigrant fleets being attacked and obliterated by one of the smaller Zentradi main fleets, and so on...

(In the Macross II timeline, the UN Spacy encounters four more Zentradi Army main fleets and another Meltrandi Army main fleet between the end of the First Space War and the Mardook invasion in 2091. Two of those invasions are featured in the prequels produced for the OVA... Macross 2036 and Macross: Eternal Love Song. Admittedly, not all of those fleets found Earth entirely by accident either...)

With the loss of the Protoculture's orchestrating hand, the Zentradi Army's main fleets are basically independent organizations... no evidence is given for any kind of higher authority above that of the commanders of the main fleets. There were plenty of repercussions... just not for Boddole Zer, as he was too busy being dead.

The official Macross chronology mentions that the surviving elements of the defeated 118th Main Fleet is dispersed across a vast area of space thanks to the haphazard nature of their retreat. It's likely that the reason many of them didn't return to attack Earth later on is that they either concluded humans might just be the Protoculture after seeing an entire main fleet laid low like that, and equally likely is that some or all of their forces were "contaminated" by the Minmay attack and didn't want to risk being put on the chopping block by their fellows the way Boddole Zer did to Vrlitwhai, Laplamiz, and Quamzin.

(We do know that the UN Spacy has standing orders to either subdue those rogue remaining elements of the fleet via Minmay Attacks or obliterate them outright... attempts to make the Minmay Attack a more precise weapon culminated in Project M and evaluation of the VF-19 Custom by Basara in Macross 7. The Macross II official publications, OVA, and prequels also talk a bit about Earth having to periodically fight returning rogue forces left over from previous main fleets, which became such a regular event in life that it effectively was reduced to the level of spectacle by 2091... the invasion from 10 years previous that inspired Hibiki to become a journalist was one such event, and the UN Spacy clearly thought the Mardook were another rogue Zentradi group up to the point the Minmay Attack didn't work.)

Crushing the head of the snake IS the phrase stated after Exedol explains the Zentradi Task force makeup.

I get that you have a tonne of reference material at your disposal. Its a shame you can't abide a discussion that takes that burden of factoid waffle and have a conversation about what all that actually means (no matter the topic or how hard someone tries to steer you onto it).

My statement about 'repurcussions' was not aimed at a dead Zentradi leader. It was aimed at the fact Earth still remains.

I'm not interested in a factoid debate based. This thread is meant to see how many people with access/possession of the same store of facts can have a speculative discussion in putting all that together into a larger understanding/synopsis of Zentradi and validating that source material. Not a factoid debate. Its not that you know better, its that I see what you are used to doing and am avoiding engaging you in a factoid debate. In short, not interested.

Given that you like to stick to only printed facts released by IP partners of the various series. I find it really strange that you cite Macross II at all, given that as it stands?

Macross II is little more than Megazone 23 III reskinned in Macross visual elements, where somehow in the next 17 odd years; Princess Ishtar (& co) of the Marducks imunize Zentradi throughout the Milky way against culture shock and apparently she isn't the only one capable in pure champion Iczer style. But somehow she falls in love with humanity and instead of culture shocked Zentradi (firmly under the control of Marducks) we now have culture shocked marduck emulators which forces (you guessed it!) a hierarchial split.

In the other corner? we have a rag tag bunch of paranoid journalists obsessed with the a colonial government that protects them; that they believe is lying to everyone about their ability to do exactly that, whom are in possession of technology already 40+ yrs superseded by the time Macross 7 ends and Frontier begins.. and once again UN spacy must fight along side opposing alien super powers (now replete with the previous alien superpower) in order to survive... I mean at this point I think it would actually take some alien tech story telling to even find some way to bring Macross II into canon.

... Please refrain from introducing alternate universe factoids into a discussion that not really about factoid wars in the first place, if at all possible.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Paladinrja

[Gubaba]

Or, y'know, Kawamori could just come out and SAY that Macross II is as canon as anything else.

Which is what happened.

[Paladinrja]

Or, y'know, Kawamori could just come out and SAY that Macross II is as canon as anything else.

Which is what happened.

Good luck selling that. I guess then, so is a yoyo!

Even greater luck making that actually happen in a comprehensible way.

Ya know, I just introduced this thread because I wanted to talk larger Macross assembly ~ specifically about Zentradi. I am personally over rehashing factoids for nearly 30yrs which never seems to get past interpretive debate and is utterly vain and pointless given anyone has access to the same information. Its meaningless recital.

There isn't a conclusive discussion or synopsis about the Zentradi at all. Just tidbits of interesting facts all over the place. I thought it might be a good discussion. One that makes use of all those facts.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Paladinrja

[Gubaba]

Um... I'm not "selling" anything. It's what happened.

[Tochiro]

Yup, and both Gubaba and I were in the same room as Kawamori when he said it.

Macross 2 has the same place in Macross as every other entry in the IP.
I even spoke directly with Kawamori again last weekend. Twice.
No need for speculation or speculative fiction here.

Macross World is a place where we respect the facts and have 30+ years of official settings materials to utilize.

It isnt a Paladium RPG site.

Those who prefer making up their own stories and fanfiction might be better served by trying a Paladium forum, in fact.

[Seto Kaiba]

I get that you have a tonne of reference material at your disposal. Its a shame you can't abide a discussion that takes that burden of factoid waffle and have a conversation about what all that actually means (no matter the topic or how hard someone tries to steer you onto it).

Not a tonne... but with the Macross Mecha Manual's needs driving my acquisitions these days, there's at least enough mass there to make a good-sized human.

The weird thing about this objection of yours is that I am actually making a couple solid points about what it actually means... in a lot of the cases where you're throwing speculation around, there are official explanations for how this all fits together. Macross's many talented creative minds are not shy about explaining their personal sci-fi playground in frankly impressive depth. They've given, via the shows and publications, direct answers to many of your musings here...

I'm not interested in a factoid debate based. This thread is meant to see how many people with access/possession of the same store of facts can have a speculative discussion in putting all that together into a larger understanding/synopsis of Zentradi and validating that source material. Not a factoid debate.

That's where we run into trouble... what you're trying to rationalize is the depiction of the Zentradi in the Macross original series with the depiction in DYRL?, the latter being an in-universe fictionalization intended for propaganda purposes. Especially after the many revelations on Lux in Macross 7, the two different versions of the Zentradi's circumstances are largely incompatible... so trying to fit them together just goes to weird places that aren't really compatible with the setting at all (and fly in the face of the answers to your questions that have already been given in official Macross media).

Given that you like to stick to only printed facts released by IP partners of the various series. I find it really strange that you cite Macross II at all, given that as it stands?

Not just printed facts, I also cheerfully work with what's said in the various Macross series, the novelizations, the manga, and those video games that are accepted as part of the larger Macross narrative. Lotsa good stuff!

I cite Macross II because I like Macross II and its setting as much as I do the rest of Macross, and despite being a "parallel world" story it has had a few "nods" to its take on things in later Macross lore... also because, where the ongoing Macross timeline is, for most purposes, building upon the version of events in the original series, Macross II's separate timeline builds upon the version of events in DYRL? instead (and the DYRL? take on the Zentradi and Meltrandi is part of the topic of discussion).

It isnt a Paladium RPG site.

Those who prefer making up their own stories and fanfiction might be better served by trying a Paladium forum, in fact.

The Palladium RPG site isn't exactly welcoming to Macross fan-works either, due to a stringent and strictly enforced policy which prohibits the posting of conversions of copyrighted material to which they don't hold a license...

[sketchley]

It isnt a Paladium RPG site.

Those who prefer making up their own stories and fanfiction might be better served by trying a Paladium forum, in fact.

Some of us are trying to make our RPG sites as correct as possible :cry:

[Paladinrja]

It isnt a Paladium RPG site.

Those who prefer making up their own stories and fanfiction might be better served by trying a Paladium forum, in fact.

Yes, because an RPG site is not at all about strict adherence to factoids.

That's where we run into trouble... what you're trying to rationalize is the depiction of the Zentradi in the Macross original series with the depiction in DYRL?, the latter being an in-universe fictionalization intended for propaganda purposes. Especially after the many revelations on Lux in Macross 7, the two different versions of the Zentradi's circumstances are largely incompatible... so trying to fit them together just goes to weird places that aren't really compatible with the setting at all (and fly in the face of the answers to your questions that have already been given in official Macross media).

It doesn't need to be a discussion that goes so far afield from the source material and everyone ends up in strange territory. It could also be representative, assembling those facts and connecting the canon thus revelationary in undiscovered country. Where, as new information becomes available, it could be culminated. There is no conclusive synopses of the Zentradi that exists past mere tidbits of information. There is a story there and that story hasn't been told either. That story isn't over yet.

Its constantly happening as each story gets told, visually and narratively anyway. As you have stated is mostly a pendulum effect between the two origin stories of the canon. If such a discussion could be had in good faith then it would be a good discussion. As I have already said, DYRL? is not propaganda its just fan service. Elementally the same story. At this junction the proposition of the Zentradi, whilst some facts support some other fact, its largely open to interpretation. Metaphorically and contextually even by the language used in that narrative.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Paladinrja