Article by Mr. K -- "Why are Arcadia products so expensive"

[Golden Arms]

Again, we need to stop with the Transformers to Arcadia/Yamato macross comparison. Not an equivalent comparison. The former are mass produced in large production runs, with very little regard to lineart. Hasbro and Takara can take a lot more liberty with respect to the actual designs of the toys. This allows them to release something that although may be able to survive a 13 year old, but isn't very reflective of the actual design. They are also mass produced in quantities that invariably brings down the cost substantially.

I think in terms of quality, I'm pretty happy with what Arcadia has produced to date. My only beef has been there QA/QC. The legs on the VF-0D and VF-0A have been either way too tight/ glued to ball joint out of the box. Yes, I too would love to see more tampo printing, but I'm one of the few that stickers my toys so, not the end of the world. The V2 1/60 Vf-1 series to this date is the comparative yardstick I base complex transformable toys against. Complex, simple, durable, accurate to source material, easy to transform, great value, and fun.

I don't mind people pointing out issues with the toys if they get something that breaks on them. The last thing I think any of us want is a community where members don't feel free to point out flaws or issues. But that being said, I think some of the recent complaining has been counter productive and a complete waste of time. The VF-0D color being an example (especially when the released toy is in the same color as depicted in the art books!). Since our overall community is small, the place becomes an echo chamber. Many things become exaggerated, and as such then become pseudo fact. Do we know if the Japanese macros fandom share the same complaints/ issues expressed here? I would be curious to know their reactions to a lot of the topics brought up in this thread. They obviously share our gripes about increased MSRP.

Arcadia at this point is vested in the factory that churns out their toys. Switching to some other mythical factory would mean for several toy releases that they would have to start all over again, before quality would even match what is currently being put out by them. That would be disastrous for a company of their size. If anything they should do, would be to look for minor ways to improve quality. Maybe a final QC check of production toys before release. Look for ways to decrease the failure rate of parts.

[treatment]

re: colors

The Arcadia 0D maybe true to the artwork, but the way they have communicated and promoted it was just stupid and deliberately misleading.

There were in fact many promo-pics of the Arcadia OD that were released and shown with varying colorshades of blue.

Not only that, the grey-goggles were not confirmed until after the Arcadia Armored 1J was actually released. Before that, Mr.K was elusive about the grey-goggles. Only after Bandai showed the HMR did he confusingly blogged that their's will be grey-goggles also.

Edited September 19, 2015 by treatment

[Golden Arms]

Hikaru VF-1J Grey googles that's a fun one. One could argue that either version is accurate as most depictions of it actually lack the grey. Even going back to the source material, the episodes where it's prominently featured it doesn't have the grey googles. SDF macross no grey, DYRL GBP armor, grey. The grey or lack there of in SDF macros can't simply be animation inconsistencies.

I prefer the grey myself, and would've been disappointed had the recent release not had the grey, but if it had been released without them I wouldn't take issue about it because most depictions of it lack the grey so I couldn't say they weren't true to the source material and what other manufactures have depicted of it as well. Both Wave and Revoltech released versions that had the googles painted the same color as the body.

[Mommar]

In fact I have no idea of their mold costs, but it seems after K comments that they are heavy on the final price. I use to work with mold companies for large steel injection molds (a single part would be at least 30cm in the smaller length) and I know the costs for these: 15k-20k each mold where a single part would cost 25 On a run of 200 pieces per year. As you can see the molds alone represent a large portion of the cost. I am ignorant of how these numbers would scale with Arcadia's model. How many valk do they sold in each run?

To cut the expenses, I have been suggested to work on resin molds, instead of using steel. My company is also working with thermo-formed plastic, and for smaller runs (order of 20) we work with materialise who make something really similar to SLA 3D printing.

Anyway, I feel bad for being judged as an ignorant simply because I am registered to 3Dprint.com newsletter and that I suddenly wanted to share this latest news to illustrate the fact that there are alternative to steel molding. You know that Google will give you the most recent news in its first page.

I humbly submit

[wolfx]

No, they're not. They're only sold in specialty hobby shops.

It's the Bandai and Hasegawa stuff that gets sold in some of the major stores, if that. And even then, it's an EXTREMELY limited selection at best.

Arcadias are sold in Yodobashi Camera (a huge mall) , HLJ, 1999, and Amiami they are major enough for me. For comparison, you won't see these places selling 3P TFs do you? These places are hardly "specialty" hobby shops. Hence the comparison.

Anyway, seeing that the discussion has gone on for a few weeks now and we can see that there are generally 2 camps. Those who support Arcadia's prices and those who don't. For the record i'm with the latter, not because I can't afford it, but because I can't justify the price with the purported "quality" they seem to promise with their products. Those who support Arcadia's prices, are missing the elephant in the room, which is despite them having purported high QC processes with high scrap rate, sadly their products do not reflect that such stringent QC is in place. And people will make the comparison with other companies that make high-end transforming robots based on manufacturing costs and practices alone.

Its unfair to say they are caviar and bananas and should not be compared to each other. Hardly. More like domestic beers vs craft beers (sorry, best example i can think off at this time is beer XD). They both are still beers, and I don't mind drinking either on a hot day. They both cost different due to the difference in production volume and also the niche one of them serves, but that doesn't mean I'll accept and drink a beer that has soured, especially when its a craft beer which purportedly has been made with utmost care and thus the tolerance towards QC issues are less. That's my 2 cents.

[sketchley]

Arcadias are sold in Yodobashi Camera (a huge mall) , HLJ, 1999, and Amiami they are major enough for me.

I've never seen Yamato/Arcadia toys at Yodobashi Camera. Maybe they're limited to one particular branch?

The other establishments are all mail order. 2 of them have only a single store. And they're all extremely niche retailers.

[wolfx]

I've never seen Yamato/Arcadia toys at Yodobashi Camera. Maybe they're limited to one particular branch?

The other establishments are all mail order. 2 of them have only a single store. And they're all extremely niche retailers.

For Yodobashi, its the one in Akiba. Also their online website has some for sale too. The others are major online retailers that serve Japan and international customers, comparable to BigBadToyStore stateside. To me, if these websites have Arcadia products, they are hardly niche. Only reason why BigBad doesn't carry Macross is because of "you-know-who-and-why". Also Amazon Japan carries them. Point is they aren't so niche as how some people mentioned. Niche to me is like stuff you can only get in comic shops, small-time distributors, kickstarter projects, etc.

[sketchley]

Niche to me is like stuff you can only get in comic shops, small-time distributors, kickstarter projects, etc.

What about the stuff that you can't even get at local comic shops? That's the category that these products fall into.

Nevertheless, as your definition of niche vs. main stream is quite... unique, we'll leave it at that.

Dear other readers: hopefully you've gleaned something from this side discussion on the distribution and retailing of these products, no matter what your definition of limited distribution (aka niche) is, or not.

[jenius]

The point of the distribution conversation is quantity. I would guess Arcadia is making production runs of like 1000 pieces on these VF-0 products. If they made 2000 you'd be able to spread the costs twice as much. That's why Bandai is able to price so much better, they're probably doing production runs that are multiples of what Arcadia is doing. If the molds cost $200K to make, at a production run of 1000 you'd need $200 each just to recover the cost of the molds. There are probably fixed set up costs at the factory also that get spread out over the unit run. The variable costs of actually building each toy, painting, and shipping is probably a small percent of the overall costs.

So when you guys try to draw your comparisons try to think of the number being sold. Does a 3P Transformer sell more than a VF-0 toy? I'd guess most do. So, if their molds cost the same but they make twice as many then you should expect the cost to be around half as much (okay, a little more than half as much due to variable costs). For traditional transformers, they probably make five times as many so the cost should be like 20% (again, plus the variable costs).

[wolfx]

What about the stuff that you can't even get at local comic shops? That's the category that these products fall into.

Nevertheless, as your definition of niche vs. main stream is quite... unique, we'll leave it at that.

Dear other readers: hopefully you've gleaned something from this side discussion on the distribution and retailing of these products, no matter what your definition of limited distribution (aka niche) is, or not.

My point was you can't get them from local comic/hobby shops (niche), but you can get them from HLJ, Amiami and 1999 (mainstream). The volume and availability is better than comic shops. Its easily accessible and these companies have consignment by crates. Not just 1-2 pieces imported by specialty shops. Granted an Arcadia release probably has 2 pieces per crate, I'm sure HLJ has stocked about at least 10 crates if not more. My local hobby store doesn't bring in any Arcadia stuff. But HLJ does. This means Arcadia (to me) falls in the realm of mainstream distribution channels and they are quite easily available. Amazon is mainstream, right?

Regardless of what i meant by niche or not, generally the point i was trying to make was, Arcadia valks are sold by these big online retailers which stock more product. 3P TF aren't, and are mostly sold by smaller/specialty retailers that stock up way less. Going by that, i'm assuming 3P TF is more niche than Arcadia valks....and their production numbers are equal to if not less than an Arcadia valk.

The point of the distribution conversation is quantity. I would guess Arcadia is making production runs of like 1000 pieces on these VF-0 products. If they made 2000 you'd be able to spread the costs twice as much. That's why Bandai is able to price so much better, they're probably doing production runs that are multiples of what Arcadia is doing. If the molds cost $200K to make, at a production run of 1000 you'd need $200 each just to recover the cost of the molds. There are probably fixed set up costs at the factory also that get spread out over the unit run. The variable costs of actually building each toy, painting, and shipping is probably a small percent of the overall costs.

So when you guys try to draw your comparisons try to think of the number being sold. Does a 3P Transformer sell more than a VF-0 toy? I'd guess most do. So, if their molds cost the same but they make twice as many then you should expect the cost to be around half as much (okay, a little more than half as much due to variable costs). For traditional transformers, they probably make five times as many so the cost should be like 20% (again, plus the variable costs).

I don't have any numbers. But going by availability alone, its much easier to get an Arcadia valk than a 3P transformer as they are being sold by larger online retailers where the latter isn't. Lets not forget, a 3P transformer company (who share toy designers amongst each other) is much smaller than Arcadia. Some even have to resort to Kickstarter or preorders to fund their projects.

[valkryenov]

Well I personally will assume that none of us macross toy collectors are happy with the high MSRP that arcadia charges for its valkyries.

That said, at the end of the day there are some of us who will balk at high price and make a decision not to purchase a damaged-prone collectibles. And some will undoubtedly resent the price but willing to commit purchasing such collectibles because they are the only offerings in town.

Regardless of the niche market argument, the argument that there are those who support or against arcadia' price is not accurate. I personally am pissed at arcadia high prices and quality of items, but for that manner I'm also pissed at bandai half-hearted attempt (vf-171 cf, mac quarter or even vf-19 advance floating tabs) and the now dead yamato for their vf-1 unsafe releases. But the lower the price the higher my tolerance is. But when it comes to take a stand between buying a possible "crap" (pardon the pun)

and not buying at all, there will always be people for both camps. Take for example evolution vf-2SS, it's high priced, and inaccurate in some ways, so its a matter of personal decision or commitment to buy it or to wait for something better comes along.

So let us all agree to disagree.

(Or we can always boycott arcadia's product and in time the company will go down or abandon macross toys production altogether, then it will be one less company that suck all those hard-earned cash and transform it to plastic junk. Not really a prospect that I like either).

[Mommar]

The point of the distribution conversation is quantity. I would guess Arcadia is making production runs of like 1000 pieces on these VF-0 products. If they made 2000 you'd be able to spread the costs twice as much. That's why Bandai is able to price so much better, they're probably doing production runs that are multiples of what Arcadia is doing. If the molds cost $200K to make, at a production run of 1000 you'd need $200 each just to recover the cost of the molds. There are probably fixed set up costs at the factory also that get spread out over the unit run. The variable costs of actually building each toy, painting, and shipping is probably a small percent of the overall costs.

So when you guys try to draw your comparisons try to think of the number being sold. Does a 3P Transformer sell more than a VF-0 toy? I'd guess most do. So, if their molds cost the same but they make twice as many then you should expect the cost to be around half as much (okay, a little more than half as much due to variable costs). For traditional transformers, they probably make five times as many so the cost should be like 20% (again, plus the variable costs).

Thank you. Great information for people to consider. I've mentioned several times that 3P can sell Transformers toys to a world wide market. I just didn't explain the concept of spreading costs around like you have here. There are so many more fans of that property out there that it's easy to spread costs around on larger runs.

For Yodobashi, its the one in Akiba. Also their online website has some for sale too. The others are major online retailers that serve Japan and international customers, comparable to BigBadToyStore stateside. To me, if these websites have Arcadia products, they are hardly niche. Only reason why BigBad doesn't carry Macross is because of "you-know-who-and-why". Also Amazon Japan carries them. Point is they aren't so niche as how some people mentioned. Niche to me is like stuff you can only get in comic shops, small-time distributors, kickstarter projects, etc.

BBTS is niche dude, even if they sell some widely circulated things like Marvel Legends and Transformers. The store itself isn't know to the greater majority. Toys R Us, everybody knows Toys R Us. BigBadToyStore... only a small minority, even if it is a majority of collectors, still makes it niche.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Mommar

[wolfx]

BBTS is niche dude, even if they sell some widely circulated things like Marvel Legends and Transformers. The store itself isn't know to the greater majority. Toys R Us, everybody knows Toys R Us. BigBadToyStore... only a small minority, even if it is a majority of collectors, still makes it niche.

Dude. Why don't we put Target, Hamley's and Walmart into your list while we're at it if you wanna talk about TRU. Does TRU even sell any Macross toys, Bandai or Arcadia, for that matter? How about 3A Toys? I was talking about niche in the collector's market. If BBTS is niche, what is Captured Prey and PlanetSteelExpress? Black Markets? (hmm...maybe one can say so considering all the unlicensed stuff)

Anyway semantics aside, i think i've put my point across and it wasn't to argue which retailers are considered niche and which aren't. It was merely to illustrate which toy stores sell valks, which don't, and how big their respective sales volumes are.

[Mommar]

Dude. Why don't we put Target, Hamley's and Walmart into your list while we're at it if you wanna talk about TRU. Does TRU even sell any Macross toys, Bandai or Arcadia, for that matter? How about 3A Toys? I was talking about niche in the collector's market. If BBTS is niche, what is Captured Prey and PlanetSteelExpress? Black Markets? (hmm...maybe one can say so considering all the unlicensed stuff)

Anyway semantics aside, i think i've put my point across and it wasn't to argue which retailers are considered niche and which aren't. It was merely to illustrate which toy stores sell valks, which don't, and how big their respective sales volumes are.

You probably should put those others into the group as well, because they're aren't niche. No, TRU doesn't sell Macross, because it's a niche product sold at niche stores. The collectors market is niche by definition, that makes the store niche as well. Niche fandom, market, item and store. Guess what, some of the Yamato/Arcadia/Bandai Macross toys are also listed on Amazon right now, does that suddenly make them mainstream because they're on the BIGGEST website on the planet? No, and everybody knows who Amazon are.

[wolfx]

You probably should put those others into the group as well, because they're aren't niche. No, TRU doesn't sell Macross, because it's a niche product sold at niche stores. The collectors market is niche by definition, that makes the store niche as well. Niche fandom, market, item and store. Guess what, some of the Yamato/Arcadia/Bandai Macross toys are also listed on Amazon right now, does that suddenly make them mainstream because they're on the BIGGEST website on the planet? No, and everybody knows who Amazon are.

I would think yes. Thanks for proving my point. Do you know how much product a supplier needs to provide to Amazon be listed on Amazon? And just to pre-empt you, no, i'm not talking about a hobby store or individual's account on Amazon. I mean Amazon selling the product themselves. I rest my case.

[Mommar]

I would think yes. Thanks for proving my point. Do you know how much product a supplier needs to provide to Amazon be listed on Amazon? And just to pre-empt you, no, i'm not talking about a hobby store or individual's account on Amazon. I mean Amazon selling the product themselves. I rest my case.

It proves nothing.

[Loop]

I also agree that Macross toys are extremely niche. I mean if I went to a convention with toy collectors and asked the people there do they know what a transformers are I could almost guarantee 10 of 10 would know. If I asked the same about a Macross Valkyrie, I'd most likely get a strange look from the person being asked. I am in NA btw and not Japan. Your chances in Japan would be greater but from what I know it is even niche over there compare to all the other anime/toy IP's.

[Vifam7]

I also agree that Macross toys are extremely niche. I mean if I went to a convention with toy collectors and asked the people there do they know what a transformers are I could almost guarantee 10 of 10 would know. If I asked the same about a Macross Valkyrie, I'd most likely get a strange look from the person being asked. I am in NA btw and not Japan. Your chances in Japan would be greater but from what I know it is even niche over there compare to all the other anime/toy IP's.

Actually, in Japan, Macross is extremely well known amongst the 1980s generation. During the mid-1980s, Macross was HOT property. When the 80's generation of Japan talk about the golden age of real robot anime, the top 3 titles would be Gundam, Macross, and Votoms. Probably in that order.

Macross toys aren't that niche. In terms of robot toys, only Gundam and Transformers gets a more varied and expansive lineup. Just about every iconic Valkyrie type seen on screen has been done as a toy or kit. The VF-1 particularly has been done in a multitude of ways. Few robot anime properties have the consistency or longevity of Macross. What Macross fans have gotten is far better and more than most other robot anime.

[wolfx]

I'll try to sum up what i've said in the past few posts:

Arcadia's Macross is sold in major hobby stores (i.e.: HLJ, Amazon JP, AmiAmi, 1999 etc). These stores order stocks by consignments which can be anywhere from 50-100 units and they do export overseas to the international market. This is hardly a small "limited number" claimed by a few people here who are giving the impression that only smaller brick and mortar specialty stores stock up on Arcadia stuff, and even then they might only order 1-10 units each. The take home from all this is, Arcadia produces more Valks than you think.

With that said, we can make a comparison to other smaller companies producing smaller number of toys which are NOT sold in major hobby stores who have better quality, better pricing, and are made in a China factory as well.

Conclusion: If factory pricing is what drives these valks to be priced so high, Arcadia has to change its factory which can produce the same expected level of quality if not better for a cheaper manufacturing price. This article is hogwash as far as I'm concerned, and that 65-78% scrap rate is totally unacceptable to anyone in the manufacturing business.

[sketchley]

Macross toys aren't that niche. In terms of robot toys, only Gundam and Transformers gets a more varied and expansive lineup. Just about every iconic Valkyrie type seen on screen has been done as a toy or kit. The VF-1 particularly has been done in a multitude of ways. Few robot anime properties have the consistency or longevity of Macross. What Macross fans have gotten is far better and more than most other robot anime.

Again, they are.

You must always keep in mind that Japan is not the United States or other English speaking countries where entertainment properties stay in the minds of all but the most devoted for decades. In Japan, once a series has ended its broadcast run, its popularity drops off quite abruptly.

There are, of course, exceptions to the rule. However, if you go to any major, nationwide store (ie Yodobashi Camera, or Joshin), at present, the only Macross related items are the Hasegawa kits - and even then, not many. And of those, the majority have been sitting on the shelves gathering dust for at least half a decade. (I once saw one of the Bandai hi-metal (or whatever) VF-25 toy (the ones that are half the size of a Hasegawa model) at Yamada Denki, but that was way back at the height of Macross F's popularity - just after the series ended).

Votoms? Nothing.

Gundam being the exception.

And Toys r' us? Well, they had a few of the Bandai VF-1 kits and weapon sets when they were just released. But their modelling section has steadily eroded, and at present its just Gundam and Yamato related kits.

So, what's popular these days? What's the latest Kamen Rider/Ultraman sentai series running after school? THAT'S what's popular in the mainstream.

Wolfx: what is your source that "major" hobby stores are ordering on consignment? And ordering specifically 50-100 units each?

Edited September 23, 2015 by sketchley

[wolfx]

Wolfx: what is your source that "major" hobby stores are ordering on consignment? And ordering specifically 50-100 units each?

I know someone who was working in HLJ who provides some insight on how procurement is done.

As a supplier its generally known that major stores will only list your product if you can supply a certain amount of stock. They aren't gonna list you if you are just gonna give them 1-10 units.

[sketchley]

I know someone who was working in HLJ who provides some insight on how procurement is done.

As a supplier its generally known that major stores will only list your product if you can supply a certain amount of stock. They aren't gonna list you if you are just gonna give them 1-10 units.

This contact, was his or her statements specifically regarding Arcadia products? Is it the same with the other limited hobby stores you stated? Is it specifically 50 to 100 units per order?

[Vifam7]

Again, they are.

You must always keep in mind that Japan is not the United States or other English speaking countries where entertainment properties stay in the minds of all but the most devoted for decades. In Japan, once a series has ended its broadcast run, its popularity drops off quite abruptly.

There are, of course, exceptions to the rule. However, if you go to any major, nationwide store (ie Yodobashi Camera, or Joshin), at present, the only Macross related items are the Hasegawa kits - and even then, not many. And of those, the majority have been sitting on the shelves gathering dust for at least half a decade. (I once saw one of the Bandai hi-metal (or whatever) VF-25 toy (the ones that are half the size of a Hasegawa model) at Yamada Denki, but that was way back at the height of Macross F's popularity - just after the series ended).

Votoms? Nothing.

Gundam being the exception.

My post was more in terms of the niche-ness within that of robot anime fandom rather than in comparison to general mainstream popularity.

[wolfx]

Not Arcadia specifically. It was generally applied to all items.

And yes should be same across the board for major hobby stores. 50-100 is a general range. It's not specific.

[no3Ljm]

I know someone who was working in HLJ who provides some insight on how procurement is done.

As a supplier its generally known that major stores will only list your product if you can supply a certain amount of stock. They aren't gonna list you if you are just gonna give them 1-10 units.

So do you get more discounts then since you know someone from HLJ? That would be awesome if you do.

[Save]

Arcadias are sold in Yodobashi Camera (a huge mall) , HLJ, 1999, and Amiami they are major enough for me. For comparison, you won't see these places selling 3P TFs do you? These places are hardly "specialty" hobby shops. Hence the comparison.

Yodobashi Camera, is not a mall in any respect. It's primarily a electronic and appliance store. Most Yodobashi Cameras are nowhere near the scale of their two flagship stores in Akihabara and Osaka. All but those two are allot smaller and the further you get away from Tokyo or Osaka the chances of them even having a toy section is slim (declining birthrate = no toy department in rural areas).

Yodobashi Akiba obviously has a floor with a toy department; which does not occupy the entire floor. Within it is a nested hobbyists area ("specialty hobby shop"), and ever since it opened in 2005 said "specialty hobby shop" has gotten smaller every time they rearrange the department. Within the hobby section, the robot anime toys are probably the lowest stocked items out of everything (PVC figures, trains, model kits, model kit accessorizes, Yokai Watch) unless it's made by either Bandai (Gundam SUCKS, yeah you read that right) or Takara Tomy (ahh, does Robots in Disguise ring a bell), their products are usually brightly displaced in their very own isle with POP materials posted everywhere.

In the case of Arcadia, when a product is released it's brought in straight from the delivery truck on a wooden pallet and usually dropped off near the check out line. They don't even bother to put the product on the shelves. Why? Most often then not, they only get enough to stack waist high and that's still being stacked on top the very pallet it was dropped off on.

This mall you speak of knows very well on release day only a hand full of customers will be rushing in to get their Valk (usually limited to 1 each). Yeah, I call that a "specialty" hobby shop section located on a toy floor primarily for children.

I know someone who was working in HLJ who provides some insight on how procurement is done.

As a supplier its generally known that major stores will only list your product if you can supply a certain amount of stock. They aren't gonna list you if you are just gonna give them 1-10 units.

I've known not one, but a few who have worked and still work at HLJ, I've been in the office and walked the warehouse.

In the old days HLJ would stock allot of Yamato Valks, so much in fact they would eventually have Urban Camo Fire Sales (ahh the memories) and still have left over stock. That era has long ended. With 1999 and Amiami getting in the export game (a very grey area) after HLJ and now Big in Japan, Otakumode, and soon Hobby Stock, none of them are ordering 50 to 100 units. These online shops in this day an age are not concerned with guaranteeing stock or your order fulfillment at the pre-order stage, they pretty much are battling to keep their existing customers or attempting to steel their competitors with price cuts.

Your comparison is not only flawed, but downright ludicrous.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Save

[Scyla]

I've read a couple of days ago on the TFW boards that the initial run of the MMC Feral Rex Combiner (a 3rd party Not Predaking) was 6000 pieces. Since Feral Rex is one of the most popular 3rd party items (that are also a niche inside the niche of adult Transformers collectors but with a much wider appeal) if not the most popular combiner set (according to a TFW poll) I would assume that the first run of VF-0D could be a 6000 units max.

So going by that if your assumption of 50 to 100 units are correct there would be 60 stores that have offered the VF-0D to customers if we assume every store ordered 100 units. I assume the number of stores would be higher since not every store would order 100 units (especially not the ones in Hong Kong like angolz and hkcollectibles) but lets stay to the number of 60 shops.

Now is it reasonable to assume that this many shops actually offering Arcadia products? From what I gathered in this thread it would be hard to come up with even that number since Arcadias products are not sold on a regular bases in brick and mortar stores.

So from the information presented in this thread I would assume that the initial run of the VF-0D was (much) smaller than 6000 units.

I know it is dangerous to make such assumptions since we don't know specifics and I can only extrapolate data from the information (not facts) presented on Macross World and other boards so this hole post might be in vain.

[koonfasa]

I don't think it's just Arcadia, it's all toys. I'm hoping it's because we're running the world's resources into the ground, but it's more likely the nature of our economies. Everyone wants a cut for whatever reason and they have seen what we are willing to pay. So now we're buying less because it all costs more, but everyone's making even more. Something's gotta give.

I'm prolly off topic, I should read the thread...

[Scyla]

I don't think this is a invalid observation. If you look at HotToys releases there where few toys released over the year. Now every major Hollywood geek flick has a full line of Hot Toys (or 3A) figures and they are on their way to release all 42 Iron Man suits from Iron Man 3.

Transformers Masterpieces release where only 9 major releases (from 5 molds). Since MP-10 we have around one release each quarter of the year.

After it ended with the VF-19ADVANCE there was one Frontier Valkyrie released each month. And the unlicensed transforming toy business has so many release that you have to pick and choose carefully. For example the FansToys Iron Dibots come in four variations (standard release, premium paint job, G2 Dinobot colors, Diaclone and in some cases toy accurate colors).

When I got into toy collection there was maybe one release each quarter that I was interested in and I still have the same focus on my collection (Masterpiece TFs, 1/60 Valkyries, 3rd part TFs). So at least from my point of view there are a much greater variety of toys that battle for my attention.

If this observation is true for other collectors than Arcadia has a much harder time to sell their products because people spend their money on other products if you compare now to a situation 5 years ago.

[Renato]

I'm hoping it's because we're running the world's resources into the ground, but it's more likely the nature of our economies.

You're *hoping*..?

[wolfx]

Yodobashi Camera, is not a mall in any respect. It's primarily a electronic and appliance store. Most Yodobashi Cameras are nowhere near the scale of their two flagship stores in Akihabara and Osaka. All but those two are allot smaller and the further you get away from Tokyo or Osaka the chances of them even having a toy section is slim (declining birthrate = no toy department in rural areas).

Yodobashi Akiba obviously has a floor with a toy department; which does not occupy the entire floor. Within it is a nested hobbyists area ("specialty hobby shop"), and ever since it opened in 2005 said "specialty hobby shop" has gotten smaller every time they rearrange the department. Within the hobby section, the robot anime toys are probably the lowest stocked items out of everything (PVC figures, trains, model kits, model kit accessorizes, Yokai Watch) unless it's made by either Bandai (Gundam SUCKS, yeah you read that right) or Takara Tomy (ahh, does Robots in Disguise ring a bell), their products are usually brightly displaced in their very own isle with POP materials posted everywhere.

In the case of Arcadia, when a product is released it's brought in straight from the delivery truck on a wooden pallet and usually dropped off near the check out line. They don't even bother to put the product on the shelves. Why? Most often then not, they only get enough to stack waist high and that's still being stacked on top the very pallet it was dropped off on.

This mall you speak of knows very well on release day only a hand full of customers will be rushing in to get their Valk (usually limited to 1 each). Yeah, I call that a "specialty" hobby shop section located on a toy floor primarily for children.

I've known not one, but a few who have worked and still work at HLJ, I've been in the office and walked the warehouse.

In the old days HLJ would stock allot of Yamato Valks, so much in fact they would eventually have Urban Camo Fire Sales (ahh the memories) and still have left over stock. That era has long ended. With 1999 and Amiami getting in the export game (a very grey area) after HLJ and now Big in Japan, Otakumode, and soon Hobby Stock, none of them are ordering 50 to 100 units. These online shops in this day an age are not concerned with guaranteeing stock or your order fulfillment at the pre-order stage, they pretty much are battling to keep their existing customers or attempting to steel their competitors with price cuts.

Your comparison is not only flawed, but downright ludicrous.

Since you still have friends working in the HLJ, perhaps you could help get some numbers of how many Arcadia Valks vs Bandai Valks are actually stocked by HLJ? Just a ballpark figure would do. If it truly is below 50 and is more in the 10-20 range, then i'd be very surprised and my opinions would be obviously ludicrous and flawed. 50-100 isn't that big a number of stock for an online retailer to sell to all of Japan plus the export market. As you mentioned, during the golden era of Yamato, I'm guessing HLJ probably stocks 100-200 units easy. And that was also when there was less competition from other online portal. I agree that this era has long past. But really, 50-100 units of Arcadia valks per online retailer is also ludicrous by today's standards? How do they break even with the steel molds required to build it?

I've read a couple of days ago on the TFW boards that the initial run of the MMC Feral Rex Combiner (a 3rd party Not Predaking) was 6000 pieces. Since Feral Rex is one of the most popular 3rd party items (that are also a niche inside the niche of adult Transformers collectors but with a much wider appeal) if not the most popular combiner set (according to a TFW poll) I would assume that the first run of VF-0D could be a 6000 units max.

So going by that if your assumption of 50 to 100 units are correct there would be 60 stores that have offered the VF-0D to customers if we assume every store ordered 100 units. I assume the number of stores would be higher since not every store would order 100 units (especially not the ones in Hong Kong like angolz and hkcollectibles) but lets stay to the number of 60 shops.

Now is it reasonable to assume that this many shops actually offering Arcadia products? From what I gathered in this thread it would be hard to come up with even that number since Arcadias products are not sold on a regular bases in brick and mortar stores.

So from the information presented in this thread I would assume that the initial run of the VF-0D was (much) smaller than 6000 units.

I know it is dangerous to make such assumptions since we don't know specifics and I can only extrapolate data from the information (not facts) presented on Macross World and other boards so this hole post might be in vain.

Interesting to know that Feral Rex is 6000 units on initial run. I believe there was a second run which means there is more demand for it despite the premium pricing. But the distribution channels for a 3rd party item like Feral Rex is more limited than a Arcadia Valk. Based on your assumptions of 100 units sold per shop there needs to be 60 at least of said shops. I doubt we can come up with 60 shops either for the 3rd party TF market which is a niche within a niche. There's fewer major players who have lesser reach and customers than HLJ etc. Which means to say that there is a large number of specialty stores that sell within the 5-10 units range each since Feral Rex is being sold like hot cakes.

[Save]

Since you still have friends working in the HLJ, perhaps you could help get some numbers of how many Arcadia Valks vs Bandai Valks are actually stocked by HLJ? Just a ballpark figure would do.

Yeah right, I really want to jeopardize someones position at their work. Anything people tell me in confidence (grey area numbers, Macross Delta, etc.) is not something I'm going to run off and post on a message board that staff members visit from time to time.

Your other flaw is that you're only taking into consideration grey area retailers. Do you really think all of the above are allocated the majority of pre-order stock numbers over domestic physical and online shops throughout Japan?

[ArchieNov]

Wow this debate is going on longer than I thought it would.

So what is the bottom line? Regardless if it's niche or not, does the general community believe that Mr. K's justification for Arcadia's pricing is reasonable/acceptable?

Edited September 25, 2015 by ArchieNov

[ChaoticYeti]

The shortest answer is that the market will decide.

[Scyla]

Since you still have friends working in the HLJ, perhaps you could help get some numbers of how many Arcadia Valks vs Bandai Valks are actually stocked by HLJ? Just a ballpark figure would do. If it truly is below 50 and is more in the 10-20 range, then i'd be very surprised and my opinions would be obviously ludicrous and flawed. 50-100 isn't that big a number of stock for an online retailer to sell to all of Japan plus the export market. As you mentioned, during the golden era of Yamato, I'm guessing HLJ probably stocks 100-200 units easy. And that was also when there was less competition from other online portal. I agree that this era has long past. But really, 50-100 units of Arcadia valks per online retailer is also ludicrous by today's standards? How do they break even with the steel molds required to build it?

Interesting to know that Feral Rex is 6000 units on initial run. I believe there was a second run which means there is more demand for it despite the premium pricing. But the distribution channels for a 3rd party item like Feral Rex is more limited than a Arcadia Valk. Based on your assumptions of 100 units sold per shop there needs to be 60 at least of said shops. I doubt we can come up with 60 shops either for the 3rd party TF market which is a niche within a niche. There's fewer major players who have lesser reach and customers than HLJ etc. Which means to say that there is a large number of specialty stores that sell within the 5-10 units range each since Feral Rex is being sold like hot cakes.

The funny thing is I can name more webshops from the top of my head that sell unlicensed transforming toys than fully licensed PT Valkyries from Arcadia. Of course I don't live in Japan so I can't tell what the situation is over there in regards of brick and mortar stores and other web shops that don't export items. However the information given in this thread seems to indicate that the distribution outside of online retailers is pretty sparse.