Game of Thrones Theory Discussion. Books. Show. Spoilers.

[Dobber]

It's also clear this season has changed from earlier seasons where heroes died vs. heroes live. I enjoy it more, but I get the complaint that it's counter earlier seasons and could be construed as taking the "easy" way out. But the good guys can't always die, even on Game of Thrones.

-b.

I would also say that the good guys having some victories now feels so much more rewarding because of how they where crapped on for 5 seasons. The pay off feels that much better now.

Also....not saying you Kanedas Bike.....but I tire of people saying this show is so much more real because the good guys don't win. Bad things always happening was becoming just as cliche' as as the good guys always winning trope. It was just the other side of the same coin. As you said Kanedas Bike, the good guys get to win too, if people really want realism.

Chris

Edited June 21, 2016 by Dobber

[Major Focker]

was that the last living giant?

[Duke Togo]

was that the last living giant?

In the show, maybe; in the books, no.

[Kanedas Bike]

I assume that had Jon not gone out after Rickon, that battle plays out MUCH differently. Their defensive battle plan likely would have saved many lives, and they'd have been in a better position when the Vale arrived.

You know, I got the impression that it would have been two armies staring at each other from afar while Jon and Ramsey tried to out-strategize one another.

And the way that Jon charged in, ready to die knowing he fell into a trap, forcing his army into action, mostly because of their love and loyalty to him - for me just made for better TV/drama.

I would also say that the good guys having some victories now feels so much more rewarding because of how they where crapped on for 5 seasons. The pay off feels that much better now.

Also....not saying you Kanedas Bike.....but I tire of people saying this show is so much more real because the good guys don't win. Bad things always happening was becoming just as cliche' as as the good guys always winning trope. It was just the other side of the same coin. As you said Kanedas Bike, the good guys get to win too, if people really want realism.

Chris

Yep, you're right it does feel like a bit of a payoff. Hopefully the trend doesn't completely reverse. But we know there will be more losses before the "final".

In the show, maybe; in the books, no.

That sucked when he went down, especially since he may have survived if not for that final arrow. I immediately thought back to 'Denise' from that other show.

-b.

*edit for spelling

Edited June 21, 2016 by Kanedas Bike

[Sildani]

Yes, in the show, Wun Win is the last of his kind, unless there are a few further northwest where the shoe's never been.

He went out like a true hero, though. Not sure why Ramsey shot him instead of Jon while he had the chance. Hubris, perhaps?

Great episode overall. Sansa has learned how to hate. She's ready to be Queen in the North.

[TangledThorns]

I have to admit the dragon SFX is amazing for a TV series. Very life like, scary and more real looking than Smaug in The Hobbit films.

[Marzan]

I think the reason why the "heroes" are finally surviving instead of dying at every turn, is that there is finally that ruthlessness that was missing from many them. In the specific case of Sansa, she finally threw out the Stark playbook (which was the most surefire way to get you killed in Westeros) and used guile and subterfuge to win. And she was absolutely ruthless when it came to accepting that Rickon was good as dead in the hands of Ramsay. Which proved to be the case.

[Duke Togo]

Sansa was stupid, and I'm not giving her an ounce of credit here unless her plan all along was to eliminate Jon and his forces so they weren't a challenge to her own power. If that's the case, I hope she dies swiftly.

The simplest explanation is probably the right one here: it's just bad writing, which we've seen too much of this season.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Duke Togo

[peter]

I have to admit the dragon SFX is amazing for a TV series. Very life like, scary and more real looking than Smaug in The Hobbit films.

Yeah, that was something that really stood out for me as well, very impressive. I don't ever recall dragons in action being portrayed so well on film. The camera angles, their movement, the way they banked and hovered...all really well done.

[Duke Togo]

Confirmed that the absence of Ghost was because of budgetary constraints. They couldn't do both Wun Wun and Ghost.

[Dobber]

Sansa was stupid, and I'm not giving her an ounce of credit here unless her plan all along was to eliminate Jon and his forces so they weren't a challenge to her own power. If that's the case, I hope she dies swiftly.

The simplest explanation is probably the right one here: it's just bad writing, which we've seen too much of this season.

From the looks of the next episode, it will at least be addressed in some fashion. It was a bit annoying that she told Jon to listen to her or why he didn't ask for her council and when he did ask her what he should do, she says "I don't know."

I am starting to wonder if Sansa is going to continue behaving badly, from both her tutelage under Littlefinger and then the cruelty of Ramsey. Perhaps they are starting to show Sansa is damaged goods. Like the smile she gave at the end of the episode. We are all like "yeah that's right" agreeing with her...but if you start thinking about it more....maybe there is more to it than just being satisfied with the death of the person who hurt/tormented you. Maybe it was to imply she was enjoying it on some level...making her enemies suffer. Like part of Ramsey really is still with her.

Chris

Edited June 22, 2016 by Dobber

[Duke Togo]

It all boils down to Sansa not being in the North in the books, and the show not knowing quite how to handle it. They've made a bunch of missteps with her, and for every scene of her we get where she's being smart and strong (like when she calls out Littlefinger and threatens him), we get stupid nonsense like what happened last episode. She's been a one-woman version of the Dorne storyline in the show: poorly handled and all over the place.

[Dobber]

Ha ha, one woman Dorne...Sansa Sands!

Chris

[Marzan]

Sansa was stupid, and I'm not giving her an ounce of credit here unless her plan all along was to eliminate Jon and his forces so they weren't a challenge to her own power. If that's the case, I hope she dies swiftly.

The simplest explanation is probably the right one here: it's just bad writing, which we've seen too much of this season.

I do not think for a minute that her plan was to eliminate Jon and his his forces. She hasn't gone to the "dark side" if you allow the term. She's simply learnt in the flesh the dangers of doing the 'right thing'. While she couldn't have foreseen Jon charging in like he did, she did expect Ramsay to come up with something devious and cunning. Calling in Littlefinger and his force was the only way to ensure victory.

Of course now there will be consequences. Littlefinger does not do anything for free and she will have to pay a price.

[Duke Togo]

Assuming Littlefinger doesn't just assume the title of Warden of the North, which was given to him by royal decree. I feel like we're probably out of time for such shenanigans, though, seeing as there are only 13 episodes left after the season-ender. Unless he tries to press that claim, and Sansa kills him (per the prophecy).

[bob joe mac]

Confirmed that the absence of Ghost was because of budgetary constraints. They couldn't do both Wun Wun and Ghost.

Nah I'm sticking with Ghost is Lord Commander of the Wall with Dolores Edd as his steward.

As for Sansa being a One woman Dorne that's a little harsh Dorne was a total mess up that I found nothing except Bronn enjoyable Sansa on the other while hit and miss has been far more interesting than the waste of time that was Dorne. I mean even the show ignores it. Cersei tells Jaime to take Riverrun to prove to the world not the mess with the Lannisters... weeks after their daughter was murdered and nothing was done about it... she's just their daughter... and the Kings sister... and heir to the Throne... so yea even the show seems to ignore what they did with the story line haha.

[Duke Togo]

The Riverlands story is actually supposed to take place before the Dorne story (and Jaime actually never goes to Dorne). Just another mess they've created this season.

[Dynaman]

I wonder if the show just dropped Dorne as a the sideshow it was/is. I'm guessing not but with only 13 episodes I doubt they will spend much time on it.

[Duke Togo]

I wonder if the show just dropped Dorne as a the sideshow it was/is. I'm guessing not but with only 13 episodes I doubt they will spend much time on it.

I suspect we'll see Varys in Dorne in the season finale.

[Marzan]

Has the only 13 episodes left scenario discussed by the shows producers been confirmed by HBO? While I understand how the size of the production makes it more practical to have shorter seasons, there are so many storylines left that I have a hard time seeing how they can hack it down to size in 13 episodes.

[Warmaker]

Has the only 13 episodes left scenario discussed by the shows producers been confirmed by HBO? While I understand how the size of the production makes it more practical to have shorter seasons, there are so many storylines left that I have a hard time seeing how they can hack it down to size in 13 episodes.

The books are in the same predicament. It's supposed to be wrapping up, but as of Dance of Dragons, it doesn't look anywhere near that. I have greatly enjoyed the books but damn, it's been what? 4 years since Dance of Dragons was published.

[Duke Togo]

Has the only 13 episodes left scenario discussed by the shows producers been confirmed by HBO? While I understand how the size of the production makes it more practical to have shorter seasons, there are so many storylines left that I have a hard time seeing how they can hack it down to size in 13 episodes.

One of the directors confirmed it. It was already not a very well kept secret when he did.

[Marzan]

Those better be some long episodes then!

[ErikElvis]

I'm upset they're not doing longer seasons but I'm glad they won't just draw out crap.

[peter]

Tyrion is probably not a lannister. I think he's a Targaryen just like I think Jon snow is probably Targaryen.

Danni, Tyrion and John will be the dragon riders.

This is why Tywin Lannister did not like Tyrion, he's the bastard child of a Targaryen.


EDIT: Went to dig up the names... I think Tyrion is Aerys Targaryen's son with Tywin Lannister's wife

John is the bastard of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

Dani, Tyrion and John all have mothers died at birth...

From another forum...interesting.

[505thAirborne]

From another forum...interesting.

Very interesting.

[Duke Togo]

I never bought into that theory. While it's plausible, I don't think we need another secret Targaryen in the story. I personally believe Bran is the third dragon rider, through warging. I guess we'll see.

[Dobber]

I like the Dany, Jon, and Tyrion theory personally. Never even though of the mother angle either. Pretty neat

Chris

[bob joe mac]

I'm not a fan of the secret Targ theories either. I mean there are already to many in the books we have

Dany
Viserys
Aemon
Jon(99%)
Young Griff (maybe blackfire targ)

then the consipacies All three Lannister siblings being the most popular then you get into the deeper conspiracies and Meera, Varys, Illyrio, Mance Rayder, Quorin Halfhand etc.

people just have to much time to pick through the texts over the 5 year periods between books and there is a theory for everything now. I do like the Meera is Jon's twin one though

[Duke Togo]

Meera looks like a Crannogman in the books. She's neither a Stark or a Targaryen; she's clearly a Reed. The twin theory comes solely from her appearance in the show.

And I'm fairly certain Young Griff is the "mummer's dragon." Would be interesting if he was a Blackfyre.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Duke Togo

[bob joe mac]

Meera looks like a Crannogman in the books. She's neither a Stark or a Targaryen; she's clearly a Reed. The twin theory comes solely from her appearance in the show.

And I'm fairly certain Young Griff is the "mummer's dragon." Would be interesting if he was a Blackfyre.

I didn't say I believed it just that I thought it was cool haha,I did lump it in the conspiracy part. I do remember on my reread on the books and reading the line when Bran first sees Meera and thinks it is Arya for a moment. I immediately went on the internet and researched if anyone else had made this conspiracy theory yet... of course they had... 10 years ago haha.

[Duke Togo]

Anyone have any last minute predictions for the season finale? I think we may see something completely unexpected, like LSH or Nymeria. We haven't gotten any real curveballs this season outside of Hodor's death, so I think we're due.

[renegadeleader1]

Anyone have any last minute predictions for the season finale? I think we may see something completely unexpected, like LSH or Nymeria. We haven't gotten any real curveballs this season outside of Hodor's death, so I think we're due.

Pain.

[Duke Togo]

Wow. No real curveballs, but an excellent episode. I can't even hate they gave "The North Remembers" to Lyanna Mormont.

[Kanedas Bike]

The first 20 minutes or so reminded me of that South Park episode where Cartman gets revenge on some kid by making him eat his own parents.

Yes, OT, but also very similar in tone to not only one, but two different instances of this episode - first in the planning and scope of the revenge taken and second, well, "they're here".

Anyway, great season finale. A lot of good payoffs from this season's plot lines and good groundwork for next season.

-b.