Energy Conversion Armor (ECA), some gathered trivia

[Mr March]

I've been working a lot with Seto Kaiba recently to correct/update dozens of profiles and definitions for the Macross Mecha Manual's next update. Today he assisted me in building an extensive revised Macrosspedia entry for "Energy Conversion Armor". While this entry won't appear in this revised state until the next update of my website, I figured some fans might really like to read a bit more about it now, since information about the technology can be rare or what is available can be a little vague.

• Energy Conversion Armor (SWAG/SWGA Energy Conversion Armor)
  • An OverTechnology which redirects excess power generated by a vehicle engine into the specially designed armored hull of the vehicle, resulting in a significant increase in armor strength. The system is composed of OverTechnology-derived laminated layered armor which increases in strength by applying electromagnetic pulses (Macross Chronicle Mechanic Sheet Zero UNS 01A). The earliest variable fighters relied upon overtuned conventional engines producing enough power to increase armor strength comparable to that of a tank. Later variable fighters utilized similar SWAG energy conversion armor, but featured far more powerful thermonuclear reaction engines. In 2059, the Vajra were encountered utilizing Bio-Energy Conversion Armor so powerful it was nearly invulnerable to all but the most potent munitions and heaviest weapons. Large spacecraft also make use of Energy Conversion Armor.
    
    There are currently four specifically defined types of Energy Conversion Armor (ECA):
    
    SWAG Energy Conversion Armor
    ASWAG Advanced Energy Conversion Armor
    Energy Conversion Armor II
    Bio-Energy Conversion Armor
    
    The implementation and usage of ECA is widespread. The armored shutters and shells of the New Macross Colony ships are ECA (Macross Chronicle Technology Sheet 01E). Some destroids like the Octos use ECA in a limited fashion. Varauta spaceships are characterized by hull designs that use "planks" of ECA (Macross Chronicle Varauta Sheet 04B). Gigile's personal battleship features double the normal amount of ECA. The VF-25F Messiah and VF-25S Messiah can be outfitted with the APS-25A/MF25 Armor Pack that features ASWAG Advanced ECA. Also, the anti-projectile shields of the VF-25 Messiah series of variable fighters are made of the 2nd generation type of enhanced energy conversion armor that is also used in the Armored Pack (Macross Chronicle Mechanic Sheets Frontier SMS 02B and 03B, Great Mechanics.DX 9 pg.15, 18). The VF-27γSP Super Lucifer has Super Packs that are built with Energy Conversion Armor II. No additional information about this type of ECA is provided. It is unknown if ECA II is comparable to ASWAG Advanced ECA or if it is a new type of ECA with capabilities vastly different than any current ECA system.
    
    There are also many vaguely defined types of Energy Conversion Armor (ECA): Light, Layered, Heavy, Enhanced and Reinforced. Some of these poorly defined armor types may actually be ASWAG Advanced ECA, since the ASWAG itself is defined as "enhanced" or "strengthened" ECA.
    
    "Light ECA" is a design feature new to the YF-24 derivative variable fighters. The Stage II Thermonuclear Turbine Engine produces enough of a surplus of power that even in fighter mode - when there is 50% or greater output – light ECA can be powered around critical areas of the airframe, such as the cockpit and engines (Great Mechanics DX 9, pg 16-17).
    
    "Layered ECA" is described composing the armored pack mounted upon the forearm shield for the YF-29 Durandal Super Packs (Macross Chronicle Mechanic Sheet Macross F Movie SMS 04B).
    
    "Heavy ECA " is described as a feature on the Macross Quarter. The flight deck of the ARMD-L Carrier arm of the Macross Quarter is composed of heavy ECA so that it can double as a shield. Heavy ECA is also built into the bow of the Macross Quarter's ARMD-R Gunship arm so that it can be used to physically penetrate (lol) other warships (Macross Chronicle Mechanic Sheet Macross F SMS 01A).
    
    "Enhanced ECA " and "Reinforced ECA " are described as part of the Battle Frontier. It is stated the flight deck of the Battle Frontier is built with enhanced ECA. In Storm Attack mode, the Battle Frontier utilizes reinforced ECA within the main block (Macross Chronicle Macross F NUNS 01A).
    
    Although first mentioned as official fact in Macross Zero (2002), creator Shoji Kawamori publicly described the general technology of energy converting armor before Macross Zero and actually conceived it longer before. A video interview with Shoji Kawamori featured in the 1999 Mixx software Macross U-Print game for Windows 95/98 makes mention of ECA. Early variable fighters, like the VF-0 Phoenix, could only use Energy Conversion Armor in Battroid mode. In later variable fighters, advancements in engine power generation allowed partial use of ECA in fighter mode (Great Mechanics.DX 9 article). The SWAG Energy Conversion Armor initial acronym (which is not defined) is sometimes written as "SWGA". Also, the name of this technology is sometimes written as "converting".

[Loop]

Interesting read Mr March, thanks for sharing this with us all!

[Valkyrie Driver]

Good info, whe do you think we can expect to see it updated in Macross Mecha Manual?

[Mr March]

No release date as yet, but I'm working very hard to get this update finished. Most of it is all done and ready to go, but it's always that last mile that's the hardest

[Valkyrie Driver]

Right. I was just curious about an eta is all, not trying to rush you.

[Mr March]

No worries. I know an update is horribly overdue and I need to get it done.
On the bright side, this update is HUGE; it will be the largest update to the site ever. Nearly 200 pieces of revised/new colored art. Loads of new Macross Chronicle trivia. New non-Macross mecha profiles. The Frontier section has been completely revised/updated and includes 13 new profiles. Currently 41 new profiles site wide. New Macrosspedia entries, new schematics, new book profiles, new uncolored art, new fan art, etc. I've also built a new technical section with a very extensive new technical article to read. So it will be very enjoyable

Edited April 24, 2015 by Mr March

[Valkyrie Driver]

Dang, well you got me hooked, I'm excited.

[calubin_175]

So GN composite armor from Gundam 00 was derived from Macross.

ECA strengthens the armor enough for them to transform and retains the real robot vulnerability while without using shields and force fields from Star Trek and Star Wars.

[azrael]

So GN composite armor from Gundam 00 was derived from Macross.

Ummmm....no. Macross materials are tough already and applying an electrical current only makes it more rigid. GN Composite Armor basically applies a small GN field over the E-Carbon armor. And IIRC, GN particles are fed through the frame of a Gundam, not electricity.

ECA strengthens the armor enough for them to transform and retains the real robot vulnerability while without using shields and force fields from Star Trek and Star Wars.

Not really. Usually ECA doesn't become active until the VF has actually changed modes. And armor doesn't impact transformation of the VF. That's the actuators and other gears.

[Mr March]

I've not read anything about the production of Gundam 00 (an awesome series, btw) that mentioned specific influence from Macross. While it's true Macross was originally inspired by Gundam (and then following the success of Macross, Gundam was inspired by it in turn), I think GN composite armor was simply a re-imagining of Luna Titanium/Gundarium from the original series. It makes sense too, since GN particles and fields were basically the "minovsky" physics of the 00 universe. IMO, the GN composite armor is more homage/reference to Gundam than anything outside the franchise.

As azrael described, the ECA is just about the armor of a variable fighter. The OverTechnology materials and machinery that compose the structure/frame of the craft or power the transformation are completely different systems.

[Andras]

The problem I have with ECA is that while it's a lot of techy sounding words written down, is it ever shown on the screen as being effective? PPBs are actually shown to work many times.

Where does the extra power come from in B mode that isn't there in F mode? If the fusion turbines/thrusters are working harder in F mode, they should be making more power, not less. If the VF-0 had ECA powered off regular turbofans, what is the hold up on fusion turbines? They should be able to power it with a trickle charge compared to the power available to the VF-0*. The VF-1 has 1.3GW in it's fusion engines, 1% of that is more then the total power available to a conventional turbofan fighter.

If ECA was effective in B mode, why do the VFs typically remain in F mode once they enter combat? (Aces tend to go to Bmode) They should be able to laugh off hits that would destroy them in F mode, and the cockpit is more protected.

To be fair to M:7, they actually did that, and it didn't help the cannonfodder VF11s at all while Max blew up the Varuta VFs in B mode with single micromissiles.

Cannon fodder is cannon fodder and Aces are hardly ever hit. ECA doesn't protect Cannon fodder and Aces don't need it.

About the only time I've heard of "ECA" working as designed is the Vajra, and they are space bugs with space bug magic anyway.

*Compendium:

Two EGF-127 custom overtuned conventional turbofan jet engines with two-dimensional thrust-vectoring nozzles, each rated at 91.08 kN and 148.9 kN with afterburning. (Future variable fighters will incorporate thermonuclear reaction engines that are under development.) Due to its less efficient engines, the VF-0 has considerably shorter range, more delicate handling, and longer airframe compared to the VF-1. (Engine nacelles are comparatively longer to accommodate the earlier engine design.) Rectangular underfuselage air intake with semi-retractable slit-style shutter in Battroid mode or space use.

No fusion power there.

Due to AWAG/RA 105 SWAG energy converting armor which uses Overtechnology, the VF-0 can employ surplus power to triple the Fighter mode's armor strength in Battroid mode. (Future variable fighters will incorporate similar technology.) Majority of engine output is dedicated to flight so energy conversion armor is not functional during Fighter-mode. In GERWALK, energy is diverted to energy conversion armor for a defensive power-equivalent to an attack helicopter. Although the strength in GERWALK-mode is 4~5 times greater than in fighter mode, it is still inferior compared to Battroid mode which is 10 times greater compared fighter mode.

In B mode, the turbines are the only thing holding up the VF0, in F mode, wing and body lift 'holds it up' in the air. The turbines should be working harder in B mode then in F mode, just like an AV-8B Harrier in VTOL mode. In G mode it still gets some wing lift but it's still mostly the turbines providing direct lift at low speeds.

In space of course, there should be no difference at all between the power used for movement between F mode or B mode by the rest of the VF fleet.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Andras

[Seto Kaiba]

The problem I have with ECA is that while it's a lot of techy sounding words written down, is it ever shown on the screen as being effective?

Effective against what? We've seen pretty conclusively that VFs are impossibly tough by modern armor standards from almost the very beginning of the original series... probably the most graphic demonstration was in Frontier, where Ozma used his barrier and Armored Pack's ECA to tank a hit from a weapon we see one-shotting cruiser-class warships and his fighter was still combatworthy afterwards.

Where does the extra power come from in B mode that isn't there in F mode? If the fusion turbines/thrusters are working harder in F mode, they should be making more power, not less.

Reduced engine thrust.

The thermonuclear reaction turbine engines produce thrust by bleeding heat and plasma that would otherwise go to the generation of electrical power to flash-heat intake air in place of burning hydrocarbons. The quantity of reactant being used is very small (very realistic too, according to NASA), so the losses in generator output incurred in providing the impressive amount of engine thrust the VFs produce are fairly severe. All that heat energy that's being bled off the reaction to heat intake air isn't going to the generator... and in space, the VF is consuming its fuel at a far greater rate and most of its generator output is going to the MHD ion thruster to provide the same levels of thrust the engine would produce in atmosphere.

If the VF-0 had ECA powered off regular turbofans, what is the hold up on fusion turbines? They should be able to power it with a trickle charge compared to the power available to the VF-0*. The VF-1 has 1.3GW in it's fusion engines, 1% of that is more then the total power available to a conventional turbofan fighter.

The VF-0's energy conversion armor only had performance roughly comparable to that of a main battle tank in Battroid mode... and that feat required 90% of the Battroid's generator output. The generator output of VFs powered by reaction engines is greater, yes, but so too is the engine thrust (more power lost to thrust) and the greater armor strength requirements consequentially demand an increase in power supply... to say nothing of other increases in demand on the power system like more powerful coaxial lasers, or built-in beam weaponry, high-powered RADAR, active stealth, and other notoriously energy-intensive technological toys.

If ECA was effective in B mode, why do the VFs typically remain in F mode once they enter combat? (Aces tend to go to Bmode) They should be able to laugh off hits that would destroy them in F mode, and the cockpit is more protected.

Because, on the whole, fighter mode is more agile... many fights start out as long-range missile duels or dogfights, before things go to close quarters where Battroids are suitable. If you sit still and try to tank everything, the damage you take will add up very VERY quickly.

To be fair to M:7, they actually did that, and it didn't help the cannonfodder VF11s at all while Max blew up the Varuta VFs in B mode with single micromissiles.

The cannon fodder VF-11's were up against fighters that were, in practical terms, AVF-equivalents... VF and VA-14s that had been enhanced with technology supplied by the Protodeviln. It's not surprising that their armaments would be more powerful than those the (economized model) VF-11's were carrying. Max and Gamlin were going up against them in fighters that were more on a level with the Varauta fighters (though even then there's a certain amount of plot armor involved).

[Mr March]

I think the incredible durability and damage resistance of the Macross mecha is very apparent in the anime productions, but perhaps not to viewers that are very familiar with mecha anime shows. The valkyries fall down (VF-1D in SDFM), crash into buildings (VF-1D in SDFM), crash while flying into the ground (VT-1 Ostrich in DYRL, VF-11 in M+), fly through steel bridges (VF-1A in DYRL), flying kick each other (M+)...all the while remaining in one piece. Any one of those circumstances would have shredded a conventional vehicle to pieces. But these are also tropes common to all giant robot mecha anime, so we fans tend to forget they exist or suspension of disbelief automatically once we understand we're watching a mecha anime.

Personally, I don't consider the effectiveness of ECA a failing of Macross so much a necessary evil of visual storytelling in general. Make the valkyrie armor too weak and we can't believe they are durable. Make it too strong and we can't believe they can be damaged.

Also, Macross is much more realistic in it's use of armor. Yes, ECA is a powerful defensive technology, which means they build guns simply that much more powerful to overcome it. This is how it works in real life and also why "super armors" would never really be a thing. You simply build a bigger gun

Regarding excess power for the ECA, I think there has been discussion about this before. The Battroid and GERWALK modes are not capable of flying as fast as the fighter mode. As such, the variable fighter engines can't achieve near maximum output in anything other than fighter mode. As such, the excess power in a lower output mode can be used to power other things like walking, running, fighting and ECA. I agree, in space, the argument might not hold up, which is probably a failing of the Macross fiction. It's not the first time

[Seto Kaiba]

Regarding excess power for the ECA, I think there has been discussion about this before. The Battroid and GERWALK modes are not capable of flying as fast as the fighter mode. As such, the variable fighter engines can't achieve near maximum output in anything other than fighter mode. As such, the excess power in a lower output mode can be used to power other things like walking, running, fighting and ECA. I agree, in space, the argument might not hold up, which is probably a failing of the Macross fiction. It's not the first time

The space argument holds up pretty well, actually... considering the VFs are using what is ostensibly a (massively upgunned version of) REAL ion engine technology. To achieve the amount of thrust they're getting with (~451.11kN peak) with modern MHD/MPD technology you'd need something on the order of 1.8 gigawatts¹... (which might explain Sky Angels comments on peak reactor output). Clearly efficiency has improved considerably.

1. Best case scenario for a modern MPD with 40-60% efficiency is about 25N of thrust for 100KW of input power.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[azrael]

I think we've had this conversation before, and will likely have it again.

ECA technology is basically making a very lightly armored vehicle into a very heavily armored vehicle without adding the weight of stronger armors.

Fighter jets are not very heavily armored. If they were, they would have a very hard time staying in the air and making turns on a dime. They can take a AK-47 and say "Tis but a flesh wound.". But if a RPG hit it, a fighter jet would be screaming "RUN AWAY!!!!" before it gets blow to bits. Even a durable A-10 Warthog cannot survive an explosive hit. It could survive if you added more armor, but then you just added more weight.

A VF isn't just a fighter jet anymore so it has to be able to withstand more damage than a fighter jet. OT materials are tough, but they still make a fighter jet scream "RUN AWAY!!!!" if they see an RPG. Hence, where ECA comes in. If a VF were hit by an RPG, in battroid mode, would say "OWWWWWW! Son of a b*tch!" instead of "MOMMY!"-while-holding-their-insides-as-they-bleed-out. They still scream "RUN AWAY!" in fighter or GERWALK modes, but would do so much later in battroid mode.

[Andras]

Generic super-tough awesome-armor is cancelled out by the generic super-awesome weapons.

3km+/sec gunpods, missiles w warheads 10x as powerful as TNT, 5MW head lasers, etc.

a 2kg shell at 3.3km/s is nearly 11MJ each (more then 2x a 120mm APFSDS round), at 1200rpm, thats 217MW for the GU-11.

A VF-1 quad headlaser is less then a 1/10th that.

Since Hikaru crashed through a bridge in DYRL in G mode, and he went into the buildings in SDFM in G mode at first, how does B mode demonstrate more toughness then that? A wrecked Zentraedi fell through a building before blowing up. In all modes they are equally vulnerable to enemy weapons. In SDFM did the Battlepods have to work 10x as hard to blow up the VF1s in the city compared to in the air?

We all agree that the VFs are tougher then normal airplanes, but that was also initially racked up to Overtech materials, not ECA in B mode. If they had said- ECA runs all the time off waste energy from the fusion plant to enhance the armor protection offered by OTM- that would be frakking dandy. It's invisible, it works all the time, no problems. But when they say it's only in B mode and it makes the VF 10x tougher in B mode, and THAT is not demonstrated in the show, except, what, once? With a main character using a special VF? It's a far reaching ret-con that causes more issues then it solves.

[Seto Kaiba]

Generic super-tough awesome-armor is cancelled out by the generic super-awesome weapons.

3km+/sec gunpods, missiles w warheads 10x as powerful as TNT, 5MW head lasers, etc.

a 2kg shell at 3.3km/s is nearly 11MJ each (more then 2x a 120mm APFSDS round), at 1200rpm, thats 217MW for the GU-11.

A VF-1 quad headlaser is less then a 1/10th that.

Your math's off in a few areas... the GU-11's muzzle velocity is 2km/s, not 3.3. Also, the VF-1's head laser is delivering 100 5MW discharges per second, per spec.

Since Hikaru crashed through a bridge in DYRL in G mode, and he went into the buildings in SDFM in G mode at first, how does B mode demonstrate more toughness then that?

Having a 16.7t Zentradi officer drop onto it swinging a pipe made from who-knows-what from considerable height and not folding up like a papercraft model is pretty damned impressive. Likewise, all the acrobatics we see in the original series (VF-1's rolling and diving and doing handsprings in Battroid mode) make for a very convincing case. So too does bulling through buildings at speed, or surviving hits from large numbers of missiles without the aid of a barrier...

A wrecked Zentraedi fell through a building before blowing up. In all modes they are equally vulnerable to enemy weapons. In SDFM did the Battlepods have to work 10x as hard to blow up the VF1s in the city compared to in the air?

The VF-1's were (mostly), but that's likely got more to do with the power of Zentradi weapons than anything else. (The natural, organic logic of "my enemy can make armor of X degree, therefore his weapons are probably just powerful enough to penetrate armor of X degree" fails a bit hard on an enemy that cares little for casualties and considers troopers replaceable equipment.)

We all agree that the VFs are tougher then normal airplanes, but that was also initially racked up to Overtech materials, not ECA in B mode. If they had said- ECA runs all the time off waste energy from the fusion plant to enhance the armor protection offered by OTM- that would be frakking dandy. It's invisible, it works all the time, no problems. But when they say it's only in B mode and it makes the VF 10x tougher in B mode, and THAT is not demonstrated in the show, except, what, once? With a main character using a special VF? It's a far reaching ret-con that causes more issues then it solves.

It's a retcon that explains away an acknowledged discrepancy in the presentation of VF durability between modes... which became particularly obvious in later titles like Macross 7, but was already rearing its head as early as DYRL?. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

[Mr March]

I think we should count our lucky stars that ECA helps explain the performance of the variable fighters as much as it does. I've been watching and reading about a lot of sci-fi in my time and I gotta say the Macross solution using ECA is a helluva lot better than most science fiction franchises even attempt with their own continuity. Like Azrael said, ECA solves a lot of the problems with a variable fighter being tougher than a modern tank without any of the weight. And I think most of the criticism regarding inconsistent valkyrie durability exists regardless of whether ECA exists or not. We're talking about a 30 year franchise here; inconsistency is going to be a fact of life.

I'd also be careful of saying retconn, especially in the context of Macross. Much of the Macross technology was never described at the beginning. Hell, you should be part of the tech discussions Seto and I have about Macross, even now in our post-Macross Chronicle world. MOST of Macross technology is still vague or outright undefined. It's not a "retroactive continuity" if the technology was never described at all. We were never told what variable fighter armor was, only shown what it could achieve. At worst, ECA only changes one's own ideas of Macross...for which Kawamori and Chiba can't be faulted. From interviews it's clear ECA was around at least during the Plus/7 era and possibly before. That's a long ways back before Zero and Frontier.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Mr March

[azrael]

It also can be easily explained that Zentradi energy weapons have more than enough kinetic energy to penetrate tank-grade armor, rendering most VF armor, in battroid mode, moot. Same goes for VF-vs-VF weapons. And Vajra weapons. And Protoculture weapons.

[Mr March]

I suppose, though it's clear the Macross weaponry is supposed to be far more powerful than conventional weaponry. Both the official trivia and the unofficial trivia supports that reading, as do the anime productions themselves. Even the lowly GPU-9 from the VF-0 Phoenix is double the firepower of the A-10's GAU-8 Avenger gun once you do the math

And remember, the ECA being equivalent to tank armor is the absolute lowest benchmark for VF armor. That was on a VF-0 Phoenix using overtuned but conventional turbofan engines; no OT power source. Once 650 MW engines on the VF-1 come into play, that's an order of magnitude more power. By the time Frontier comes along, Ozma is blocking Anti-ship cannons with his PPB and ECA Armored Valk

[Andras]

Your math's off in a few areas... the GU-11's muzzle velocity is 2km/s, not 3.3. Also, the VF-1's head laser is delivering 100 5MW discharges per second, per spec.

A megawatt is a megawatt. If it's divided up into 100 pulses, it's still only 5MW. A 5MW pulse 1/100th of a second long is 50kj. Actually it would have to be less since there is dwell time between the pulses, otherwise it's a CW laser, not pulsed. 50% duty time gives 25kj pulses.

VFMF=unofficial, but even at 2km/sec, that's ~4-5MJ/shell=80MW+

(2.4kg shell scaled from the Avengers 30mm ammo=4.8MJ/hit)

[JB0]

Where does the extra power come from in B mode that isn't there in F mode? If the fusion turbines/thrusters are working harder in F mode, they should be making more power, not less.

I think it's been covered that it doesn't work that way, but I figured the WHY was worth noting.

You're thinking too conventionally. It's understandable, but not really applicable to the technology present.

In a modern internal combustion engine, yes, that's accurate. More thrust = more engine spinning = more power out of the alternator.

A Valkyrie works the other way around. The power is generated through nuclear fusion. And that fusion reactor generates both electricity AND thrust through the engine.

So more thrust taps more energy off from the reactor, REDUCING available electrical power.

The VF-0 is all kinds of special.

[Mr March]

An interesting post, JBO. I learn something new every day. This means the Macross fiction about this is more accurate than I thought.

This may be worth noting in the entry itself to answer common fan questions about the process. It's certainly educational.

[JB0]

Yeah, it's completely counter-intuitive to us here in the real world, but it's consistent with what they're supposed to be doing.

I enjoy that the original show tried to keep things as credible as a story with 30-foot men and transforming jets can, even in places where it makes it look wrong.

[Mr March]

Yes, very true.

Re-reading, I kinda realize that Seto posted something similar earlier and it went over my head

Regardless, I am thankful to you both. I'm writing an addition to the entry just for this. It's too helpful not to include it.

[Valkyrie Driver]

A megawatt is a megawatt. If it's divided up into 100 pulses, it's still only 5MW. A 5MW pulse 1/100th of a second long is 50kj. Actually it would have to be less since there is dwell time between the pulses, otherwise it's a CW laser, not pulsed. 50% duty time gives 25kj pulses.

VFMF=unofficial, but even at 2km/sec, that's ~4-5MJ/shell=80MW+

(2.4kg shell scaled from the Avengers 30mm ammo=4.8MJ/hit)

It seems to me that 5MW 100 times a second is still a pretty decent output, considering the electric motors on Diesel-electric trains produce 3-5MW of power. Also when you compare the 194.41kj of energy that the GAU-8/A produces (which is used to swat big missiles and air planes out of the sky, and blow tanks apart), it seems like a pointless argument, since the most we ever see head lasers used for is as an anti-missile system, or a cutting torch. The times we see them fired at enemies are few and far between. Besides as as most shooters will tell you, you can have the most powerful gun in the world, but it don't mean squat if you can't hit anything with it.

[Seto Kaiba]

It seems to me that 5MW 100 times a second is still a pretty decent output, considering the electric motors on Diesel-electric trains produce 3-5MW of power. Also when you compare the 194.41kj of energy that the GAU-8/A produces (which is used to swat big missiles and air planes out of the sky, and blow tanks apart), it seems like a pointless argument, since the most we ever see head lasers used for is as an anti-missile system, or a cutting torch. The times we see them fired at enemies are few and far between. Besides as as most shooters will tell you, you can have the most powerful gun in the world, but it don't mean squat if you can't hit anything with it.

Indeed... and on those occasions where we're shown coaxial laser weapons being used against enemies of comparable or superior armor strength to the VF that the laser's mounted on, they don't seem to do a hell of a lot unless they hit an exposed weak spot or lay down a sustained barrage. Probably the best example is in Macross Zero Ep4, where Roy attacked a pair of Octos units and his lasers weren't doing anything until he hit an exposed leg joint on one and shot the missile the other had shot at him almost the instant it launched.

[GuardianGrey]

I know this is degreasing from the thread's topic, though here is my two cents.

On the matter of head mounted lasers, yes anti-missile & cutting torch are the most noted.

And, even if their damage potential is minimal, it seems the threat of is high.

Cases of this point are when Nora (SV-51) quickly disengaged from Shin (VF-0D) when he deployed the head laser (don't recall any hits scored) in Macross Zero.

In SDFM, in the scenes that the head lasers of the VF-1J are animated coming from the FLIR sensors, they are being used against enemy units (again, don't remember if they scored).

When Ichijo did the "Alpha Strike" (using all of the weapons at once) near the end of DYRL?, though that would be only a token worth of damage in comparison to the other weapons used.

The last example I can think of is Isamu (YF-19) verses Guld (YF-21), after they re-entered Earth's atmosphere & the YF-19's head laser was used to "discourage" the YF-21 from tailing (debatable if Isamu was actually trying to hit Guld or not).

____________________

Now, back on topic. I maybe wrong in what Andras might be trying to ask, though if the ECA is supposed to make the armor of a VF "stronger", how is that exactly measurable?

Does it act/perform as if the material is thicker?

Or, does it not allow abatement/weakening of the armor to lighter/non-penetrating attacks?

Then again, does the current used throughout the armor make a field that helps minimize beam/laser weapons, or help facilitate the use of the PPBS?

[Mr March]

Going off topic momentarily...

I agree the VF-0 Phoenix head lasers were shown as only useful against unarmed/lightly armored objects (like missiles) but ineffective against mecha (the SV-51 or the Octos). However, the head unit lasers from the VF-1 Valkyrie and onwards are shown several times as deadly against enemy mecha. Roy's VF-1S Valkyrie uses the head lasers to completely destroy a Reguld Battle Pod in one of the earliest episodes of SDF Macross (episode 2?). Also, Max severly damages Milia's Queadluun-Rau powered suit with the VF-1S head lasers in the DYRL? film. And as GuardianGrey has pointed out, in Macross Plus the head cannons are dangerous to enemy mecha (at least in fighter mode) as shown in the YF-19 vs. YF-21 fight. This continues in Macross Frontier also, with Brera's VF-27 desperately dodging laser fire from Alto piloting his VF-25 and attacking with the head cannons while in fighter mode. If later head lasers were as useless in battle as those on the VF-0 Phoenix, they'd be disregarded as harmless by pilots, just like Nora did in her SV-51. Clearly, they are dangerous, at least as anti-aircraft weapons...which is what they are called.

Back on topic...

Answering GuardianGrey

The specifics of ECA don't go into the kind of detail we'd need to completely understand how it works. But I can say for certain that ECA is not an ablative effect nor is it any kind of force field upon/within the armor itself, at least as the official trivia describes the technology. Most likely, ECA is using electromagnetic energy to strengthen the molecular bonds of the armor material at an atomic level. I believe this is called - and take into account I'm way out of my scientific comfort zone here - magnetic field manipulation of chemical bonding.

Since we are talking about beam/laser weapons against armor - and this is where an actual claim of "retroactive continuity" may have merit - it's worth mentioning the Macross Chronicle does describe several times of Anti-Optical Weapon Vaporization Armor being standard on most mecha. This anti-optical armor is often written within the context that explains why military vehicles are still using projectile weapons like gun pods in an age of practical directed energy weapons and high-speed, high maneuverability micro-missiles.

Basically, Kawamori and Co. love gun pods and will write their universe with whatever fiction necessary to justify the continued use of projectile weapons

Edited April 29, 2015 by Mr March

[GuardianGrey]

Back on topic...

Answering GuardianGrey

The specifics of ECA don't go into the kind of detail we'd need to completely understand how it works. But I can say for certain that ECA is not an ablative effect nor is it any kind of force field upon/within the armor itself, at least as the official trivia describes the technology. Most likely, ECA is using electromagnetic energy to strengthen the molecular bonds of the armor material at an atomic level. I believe this is called - and take into account I'm way out of my scientific comfort zone here - magnetic field manipulation of chemical bonding.

Okay, I think I might be understanding it a bit better now.

On my abatement comment, I was trying to say that it would prevent weakening of the armor while active (easier to dent while not energized, almost impossible to do so when power is on).

The electromagnetic field of ECA (when active) may have been a factor in its performance, though I have other thoughts on that.

Mainly that the fields are needed for the PPBS to work properly (the conduit for the first generation to move around the SDF-1), though that is my current believe/theory.

Since we are talking about beam/laser weapons against armor - and this is where an actual claim of "retroactive continuity" may have merit - it's worth mentioning the Macross Chronicle does describe several times of Anti-Optical Weapon Vaporization Armor being standard on most mecha. This anti-optical armor is often written within the context that explains why military vehicles are still using projectile weapons like gun pods in an age of practical directed energy weapons and high-speed, high maneuverability micro-missiles.

Basically, Kawamori and Co. love gun pods and will write their universe with whatever fiction necessary to justify the continued use of projectile weapons

Okay then, I was not just hearing things in Macross Plus OAV (dubbed) when Isamu was reading the YF-19 specifications and read about the new anti-laser coating.

Going off topic momentarily...

I agree the VF-0 Phoenix head lasers were shown as only useful against unarmed/lightly armored objects (like missiles) but ineffective against mecha (the SV-51 or the Octos). However, the head unit lasers from the VF-1 Valkyrie and onwards are shown several times as deadly against enemy mecha. Roy's VF-1S Valkyrie uses the head lasers to completely destroy a Reguld Battle Pod in one of the earliest episodes of SDF Macross (episode 2?). Also, Max severly damages Milia's Queadluun-Rau powered suit with the VF-1S head lasers in the DYRL? film. And as GuardianGrey has pointed out, in Macross Plus the head cannons are dangerous to enemy mecha (at least in fighter mode) as shown in the YF-19 vs. YF-21 fight. This continues in Macross Frontier also, with Brera's VF-27 desperately dodging laser fire from Alto piloting his VF-25 and attacking with the head cannons while in fighter mode. If later head lasers were as useless in battle as those on the VF-0 Phoenix, they'd be disregarded as harmless by pilots, just like Nora did in her SV-51. Clearly, they are dangerous, at least as anti-aircraft weapons...which is what they are called.

I thought Nora disengaged/distanced her SV-51 when Shin opened fire with the VF-0D's head laser (considering that Nora's cockpit was at point-blank range for, and Shin still missed!), though I might be recalling the scene wrong.

I may post more to the Real Life Technologies thread, though I don't know how to compare laser damage/wattage.

The VF-1A is said to have a 5 MW laser, which many seem to believe is weak. I was assuming that as a preproduction model (VF-0) would have been using majority of the same systems.

In reality, a 15 kW pulse-laser (in tests aboard the NKC-135A) downed AiM-9 (Sidewinder) missiles & target drones. The YAL-1 (with a 20 kW COIL system in tests) shot down ballistic missiles while in boost-stage.

Both are rated (at least) 250x less in power than the RoV-20 Mauler of the VF-1, and can do a fair amount of damage.

Edited May 11, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Seto Kaiba]

Mainly that the fields are needed for the PPBS to work properly (the conduit for the first generation to move around the SDF-1), though that is my current believe/theory.

Very unlikely... as pinpoint barrier systems produce a focused distortion in local space, rather than any kind of electromagnetic effect. They're a derivative of fold technology.

Okay then, I was not just hearing things in Macross Plus OAV (dubbed) when Isamu was reading the YF-19 specifications and read about the new anti-laser coating.

Nope, you weren't hearing things. Not sure when exactly the technology came into being though.. I vaguely recall being told that it existed as early as the VF-0, though the only main Macross timeline designs that I recall explicit mentions of it for are the YF/VF-19, VF-171EX, and VF-25.

I may post more to the Real Life Technologies thread, though I don't know how to compare laser damage/wattage.

The VF-1A is said to have a 5 MW laser, which many seem to believe is weak. I was assuming that as a preproduction model (VF-0) would have been using majority of the same systems.

In reality, a 15 kW pulse-laser (in tests aboard the NKC-135A) downed AiM-9 (Sidewinder) missiles & target drones. The YAL-1 (with a 20 kW COIL system in tests) shot down ballistic missiles while in boost-stage.

Both are rated (at least) 250x less in power than the RoV-20 Mauler of the VF-1, and can do a fair amount of damage.

One thing that occurred to me a while back that may explain the apparent discrepancy between energy conversion armor's excellent resistance to physical impacts and its apparent vulnerability to energy weapons is that the descriptive details we've uncovered so far sound a LOT like a "smart material" version of something that exists right now... (bulletproof) laminated glass.

The way it sounds, energy conversion armor may be increasing the structural rigidity of the layers of composite armor material (and possibly enhancing the elasticity of the laminate), using the hard-armor layers to stop the actual projectile and the laminate layers to permit the armor to flex without losing its integrity and disperse the impact energy over a larger area.

This would possibly explain why comparatively low-powered laser weapons are moderately effective when otherwise overwhelming kinetic force is usually required to damage the same material... the laser (or particle beam) is heating and ablating the armor, which would melt and/or de-laminate the elastic layers that would otherwise absorb much of the impact, robbing the armor of most of the structural strength it would have against a kinetic impact.

[JB0]

I may post more to the Real Life Technologies thread, though I don't know how to compare laser damage/wattage.

The VF-1A is said to have a 5 MW laser, which many seem to believe is weak. I was assuming that as a preproduction model (VF-0) would have been using majority of the same systems.

In reality, a 15 kW pulse-laser (in tests aboard the NKC-135A) downed AiM-9 (Sidewinder) missiles & target drones. The YAL-1 (with a 20 kW COIL system in tests) shot down ballistic missiles while in boost-stage.

Both are rated (at least) 250x less in power than the RoV-20 Mauler of the VF-1, and can do a fair amount of damage.

Remember,these real-world lasers are damaging real-world hardware made of real-world alloys and driven by real-world engines with real-world weight limits. Also, missiles are very lightly armored next to the planes that fire them.

Once you up the thrust a hundred-fold, putting more armor on everything becomes feasable. Even moreso when you ALSO have materials that are a hundred-fold more durable than anything we have now for the same weight.

I think it's obvious why something that's super-powerful for the real world could kinda suck in Macross.

[Mommar]

This would possibly explain why comparatively low-powered laser weapons are moderately effective when otherwise overwhelming kinetic force is usually required to damage the same material... the laser (or particle beam) is heating and ablating the armor, which would melt and/or de-laminate the elastic layers that would otherwise absorb much of the impact, robbing the armor of most of the structural strength it would have against a kinetic impact.

So energy weapons make for great "target softeners."

[Seto Kaiba]

So energy weapons make for great "target softeners."

Or heat in general... we know that atmospheric friction can really mess a VF up, to the extent that atmospheric friction-heating at high speed is one of the primary obstacles to a VF getting hypersonic below 30km. Looking at it this way, that would explain why the VF-27 needs both its energy conversion armor and pinpoint barrier to achieve top speed below 30km... using the energy conversion armor to improve airframe durability and the barrier to reduce friction-heating.

[Mr March]

Okay, I think I might be understanding it a bit better now.

On my abatement comment, I was trying to say that it would prevent weakening of the armor while active (easier to dent while not energized, almost impossible to do so when power is on).

The electromagnetic field of ECA (when active) may have been a factor in its performance, though I have other thoughts on that.

Mainly that the fields are needed for the PPBS to work properly (the conduit for the first generation to move around the SDF-1), though that is my current believe/theory.

Yes, that's generally how ECA would work.

It's possible ECA and PPB could be linked, but for certain ECA would be independent (since variable fighters were using ECA well before fighter-scale Pin-Point Barriers came about)

Okay then, I was not just hearing things in Macross Plus OAV (dubbed) when Isamu was reading the YF-19 specifications and read about the new anti-laser coating.

I thought Nora disengaged/distanced her SV-51 when Shin opened fire with the VF-0D's head laser (considering that Nora's cockpit was at point-blank range for, and Shin still missed!), though I might be recalling the scene wrong.

I may post more to the Real Life Technologies thread, though I don't know how to compare laser damage/wattage.

The VF-1A is said to have a 5 MW laser, which many seem to believe is weak. I was assuming that as a preproduction model (VF-0) would have been using majority of the same systems.

In reality, a 15 kW pulse-laser (in tests aboard the NKC-135A) downed AiM-9 (Sidewinder) missiles & target drones. The YAL-1 (with a 20 kW COIL system in tests) shot down ballistic missiles while in boost-stage.

Both are rated (at least) 250x less in power than the RoV-20 Mauler of the VF-1, and can do a fair amount of damage.

No, you weren't hearing things. There is some kind of laser counter meaure mentioned, as Seto pointed on when Isamu talks about "anti-laser coating". Technically, that makes anti-optical armor canon...sort of. HOWEVER, nothing was ever written of this in any official trivia until the Macross Chronicle (at least as far as I know). Much like creations such as "hypercarbon" and other Macross-isms, the "actuality" of what these things are is a matter of debate. Not every piece of dialog or technology presented in a Macross anime production ends up becoming part of the official world-building of the franchise. Sometimes these things are just throwaway dialog or placeholder tech to serve a plot/character purpose in the story narrative. Sometimes they are created, the creator thinks better of it over time, and eventually they are dropped. Sometimes the creators just forget...they are only human after all.

Up until the Macross Chronicle was published in 2008, no fan could be faulted for not even being aware this anti-laser thing existed in Macross at all!

So that's why I say, there "may" be a case for calling it retroactive continuity...to a certain extent. Like any written piece of fiction, the Macross productions and it's world building are not perfect.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Mr March