Macross Master File

[wm cheng]

4 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Yeah, they've had it up for ages... CDJapan were the ones who were late to the party.

They have it marked as Order Stop though, which means they won't take any more preorders until after it comes out.

https://hlj.com/variable-fighter-master-file-vf-11-thunderbolt-sof60030

Darn it!

[slide]

AmiAmi: ¥2,916

https://www.amiami.com/eng/detail/?gcode=MED-BOOK-012716

 

HS: ¥2,700

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10583372

 

Still up @ both as of posting.

[ivorysniper]

On 3/1/2019 at 4:31 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Oh, it was all but inevitable Max and Milia would feature in the book.  They are, after all, the first ones to take a VF-11 into live combat and the reason the VF-11's production spec includes the canards.  (Plus Milia also had a VF-11C in Macross 7 Plus episode "TOP GAMRIN" (sic)).

If they give us a good cutaway of the gunpod like they did for the GU-11 and GU-15, I'll be THRILLED.  

3

Didn't pay attention to it before, but now noticed the "third" wing pylon always loaded with just a single ejector/rail for an AMM-1 instead of the usual triple rack. It seems they'll be covering the extra hardpoint with weight/space limits.

A 'disected' gunpod (or both gunpods) would be great !!!!

[Seto Kaiba]

23 minutes ago, ivorysniper said:

Didn't pay attention to it before, but now noticed the "third" wing pylon always loaded with just a single ejector/rail for an AMM-1 instead of the usual triple rack. It seems they'll be covering the extra hardpoint with weight/space limits.

That's one thing I wish Master File would cover... actual weights for various weapons and pylon weight limits.

Sky Angel did it.

 

23 minutes ago, ivorysniper said:

A 'disected' gunpod (or both gunpods) would be great !!!!

Yeah.  I really wanna know how that half-helical magazine system works.

[slide]

Just now, Seto Kaiba said:

That's one thing I wish Master File would cover... actual weights for various weapons and pylon weight limits.

Sky Angel did it.

I just tried to run some numbers on the VF-1 using the Masterfile Data and Real-World Analogues: Sparrows as AMM-1 stand-ins and F-16 Pylons [Macross WAS made in 1982 after all], and yea.. they WONKY... Unless the gunpod weighs 4 Metric tons... which is ludicrous considering a GPU-5/A is only 866 Kilos fully loaded with 353 rounds, and they're using Overtechnology to make things lighter, stronger, etc. etc.

 

Nerdy, Nerdy Ordinance Info like this would be great!

[Mommar]

5 hours ago, slide said:

I just tried to run some numbers on the VF-1 using the Masterfile Data and Real-World Analogues: Sparrows as AMM-1 stand-ins and F-16 Pylons [Macross WAS made in 1982 after all], and yea.. they WONKY... Unless the gunpod weighs 4 Metric tons... which is ludicrous considering a GPU-5/A is only 866 Kilos fully loaded with 353 rounds, and they're using Overtechnology to make things lighter, stronger, etc. etc.

 

Nerdy, Nerdy Ordinance Info like this would be great!

So what are all the numbers side-by-side?

[ivorysniper]

14 hours ago, slide said:

I just tried to run some numbers on the VF-1 using the Masterfile Data and Real-World Analogues: Sparrows as AMM-1 stand-ins and F-16 Pylons [Macross WAS made in 1982 after all], and yea.. they WONKY... Unless the gunpod weighs 4 Metric tons... which is ludicrous considering a GPU-5/A is only 866 Kilos fully loaded with 353 rounds, and they're using Overtechnology to make things lighter, stronger, etc. etc.

 

Nerdy, Nerdy Ordinance Info like this would be great!

Yupp, Overtechnology is always the perfect excuse for every out-of-whack numbers analysis. No complaints about it, though, always liked the 'light as a fighter but hard as a MBT'-alike ideas.

[Seto Kaiba]

54 minutes ago, ivorysniper said:

Yupp, Overtechnology is always the perfect excuse for every out-of-whack numbers analysis. No complaints about it, though, always liked the 'light as a fighter but hard as a MBT'-alike ideas.

Which makes it even cooler when modern science starts catching up and even outright defictionalizes parts of the technology...

 

16 hours ago, slide said:

I just tried to run some numbers on the VF-1 using the Masterfile Data and Real-World Analogues: Sparrows as AMM-1 stand-ins and F-16 Pylons [Macross WAS made in 1982 after all], and yea.. they WONKY... Unless the gunpod weighs 4 Metric tons... which is ludicrous considering a GPU-5/A is only 866 Kilos fully loaded with 353 rounds, and they're using Overtechnology to make things lighter, stronger, etc. etc.

 

Nerdy, Nerdy Ordinance Info like this would be great!

That translation's still a WIP, I'm afraid... but I can tell you the GU-11[A]'s 1,450kg with 180 rounds and the AMM-1 only weighs about 1/2 what an AIM-7 does (125kg vs. 230kg).

[ivorysniper]

1 hour ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Which makes it even cooler when modern science starts catching up and even outright defictionalizes parts of the technology...

 

Coincidentally, there was a coffee-time debate at the office about new AA-capable UCAV developments like the Boeing's 'Loyal Wingman' project or the Russian 'Okhotnik-B' prototype (both controlled by a 'mother' aircraft), and everybody ended up agreeing about the human factor (i.e. physical strength/resistance) being a sort of hurdle on further achievements like hyper-maneuverability. The ISC idea quickly came to my mind... bringing back the human pilot to the game instead of pushing for more capable unmanned systems. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by ivorysniper

[slide]

On 3/4/2019 at 11:59 PM, Mommar said:

So what are all the numbers side-by-side?

From the VF-1Masterfile, courtesy of Macross Mecha Manual:

Quote

Mass: empty 13.25 metric tons; standard T-O 18.5 metric tons; slush hydrogen fuel internal tank capacity is 1,410 litres; 119.85 kg total weight derived from a mass of 0.085 kg/L (Variable Fighter Master File VF-1 Valkyrie Vol. 2, pg. 16, 24, 28)

So, I'm no expert, and I'm working from some second-hand [but trusted] info regarding pylon mass... I'm also forced to assume that "empty weight" means "mission-ready sans ordinance/fuel"... but here's my Armchair-Armorer attempt:

 

Using *Aim-7 Sparrow missiles as a stand-in for the AMM-1 [one could also use AMRAAMS at 152Kg], we get 230Kgx12= 2760Kg.

1824Kg for AMRAAMs,

and a measly 1032Kg if they're Sidewinder-equivalents for total mass.

 

Re: Pylons, I'm going with 120Kg, which is the reported-to-me weight of the F-16 Station 3/7 16S1700 Pylon [The one the Bombs and TER are on VS Line-art for the VF-1 AMM-1 Pylon]... So 120Kgx4= 480Kg

so: Standard TO weight - (Empty Weight + Fuel + Missiles + Pylons) = Remaining weight for the GU-11

thus: 18500Kg - (13250Kg + 119.85Kg + 2760Kg + 480Kg) = 1890.15Kg left for the GU-11 Gunpod, with Aim-7 Sparrows as AMM-1 Stand-ins.

GU-11 = 2826.15Kg if AMRAAMs were stood-in, 

GU-11 = a WHOPPING 4306.15Kg if Aim-9L [the top-of-the line Sidewinder in 1982] were stood-in. THIS was my original number...

 

and I consider that number BANANAS in light of the following:

 a GPU-5/A [it's a GAU-8 A-10 cannon in a pod with 353 rounds, and a helical magazine just like the GU-11] weighs-in at 866Kg loaded... so even considering the calibre increase... GAU-8 has seven barrels to GU-11's 3 barrels, and GU-11 stores 200x55mm rounds instead of the 353x30mm in the GPU-5/A...

The full-up Gau-8 Avenger System, as-mounted in the A-10, weighs in at 1830Kg, but that includes 1170 Rounds and the Magazine Drum to hold it all

the GU-11 gunpod can't weigh 1890Kg, or I'm missing something....... how heavy can that camera unit on top be? if we add-on a fully fuelled MQ-1B Predator [just for fun] to compensate for the increase in calibre and sensor-suite: GPU-5/A(866Kg)+MQ-1B(1020Kg) = 1886Kg! lol  

The GU-11 has to weigh even more if we were to consider the smaller, lighter stand-ins for the AMM-1.

Couple all that with what I think is the obvious "Wouldn't Overtechnology make, at least some things, stronger and/or lighter?" argument... and 

 

 

***EDIT***

17 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

That translation's still a WIP, I'm afraid... but I can tell you the GU-11[A]'s 1,450kg with 180 rounds and the AMM-1 only weighs about 1/2 what an AIM-7 does (125kg vs. 230kg).

 

so then [using the AMRAAM stand-in, cause it's closest] we get 2826.15Kg - 1450Kg = 1376.15Kg unaccounted-for, even though we've plugged-in "known mass" for the GU-11, Missiles, Fuel, and Real-world Pylons...

So yea... either they think Kakizaki weighs as much as a young Rhinoceros;

or they must think the Pylons are REALLY HEAVY!!

Edited March 6, 2019 by slide

[Seto Kaiba]

 

So, I'm no expert, and I'm working from some second-hand [but trusted] info regarding pylon mass... I'm also forced to assume that "empty weight" means "mission-ready sans ordinance/fuel"... but here's my Armchair-Armorer attempt:

Yeah, it's a bit of a math fail.

Empty weight usually means the aircraft is drained of fuel and consumable stores, but is otherwise fully topped-up on hydraulic fluid, lubricants, etc.

18,500kg - 13,250kg = 5,250kg of odds and ends to be accounted for including (but not limited to):

• The pilot (Hikaru is 58kg without his pilot suit)
• Life support system gases (trivial weight?)
• 1,410L of hydrogen slush fuel for the main engines (119.85kg @ 0.085kg/L)
• An unknown quantity of fuel for the liquid-fuel rockets in the "backpack" (liquid oxygen is 1.141kg/L)
• A Howard GU-11[A] gunpod with 200 55mm rounds (1,550kg)
• Twelve AMM-1A all-purpose medium-range missiles (12x125kg = 1,500kg, not counting the weight of the pylons)
• Chaff, flare, and smoke charges for the countermeasure dispenser.

Basically, with the knowns we can whittle it down to ~2,022.15kg of unaccounted-for mass.  If the four pylons are of similar mass to the F-16 Station 3/7s you quoted, that's another 480kg accounted for putting us at 1,542.15kg of unaccounted-for mass.

We could go deeper if we knew how much fuel and of what type was in that rocket assembly, and had more info on the contents of the countermeasures dispenser.

[sketchley]

Picked up the VFMF: VF-11 Thunderbolt book today and...

• it's focused on the VF-11A to D, and the MAXL and MAXL Kai (1 page devoted to each of those two)
• the only weirdness is  limited to a recycling of that 'flying laser' thing from the VF-19 book (there is at least one heretofore unseen pre-production variant with odd wings, but nothing on the scale of weirdness that was in the VF-22 book).
• what's most interesting is what's NOT in the book: no Jamming Birds Kai, no Full Armour, nothing from Macross the Ride (namely the Thunder Focus), and the Super Packs are hardly mentioned at all.  (being saved for a sequel?)

 

Incidentally, if you're shopping for it in Umeda in Osaka, there's a large stack of them at Book 1st in the east mall part of Whity, across from the exit closest to Mandarake (Umeda).  Oddly, it wasn't in the usual spots (Yodobashi Camera nor Kinokuniya).  Something to do with how they're distributed?

[no3Ljm]

Does it feature the Radome Type unit?

 

[jvmacross]

Not surprised there is no MtR coverage, but I am that there is no Jamming Birds or Full Armor.  Perhaps on the VF-11 "Battroid" edition....

Mine should arrive either tomorrow or Wednesday.

[Seto Kaiba]

 

Picked up the VFMF: VF-11 Thunderbolt book today and...

• it's focused on the VF-11A to D, and the MAXL and MAXL Kai (1 page devoted to each of those two)
• the only weirdness is  limited to a recycling of that 'flying laser' thing from the VF-19 book (there is at least one heretofore unseen pre-production variant with odd wings, but nothing on the scale of weirdness that was in the VF-22 book).
• what's most interesting is what's NOT in the book: no Jamming Birds Kai, no Full Armour, nothing from Macross the Ride (namely the Thunder Focus), and the Super Packs are hardly mentioned at all.  (being saved for a sequel?)

Thanks for the review.  

My hopes have been raised a bit by hearing that there's a bare minimum of weirdness in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-11 Thunderbolt.  It sounds like it should be similar to what we got in the VF-0 book in terms of content then, which means I can expect some good technical trivia instead of the raving garbage I got in the VF-4, VF-22, and VF-31 books.  I'm a little surprised they glossed over the Super Pack and skipped the Protect Armor Pack outright since we seldom saw the VF-11 without one or the other outside of Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy.  I'm less surprised they skipped the relatively minimal custom VF-11D built for the Jamming Birds.

If the first one's good, I'd definitely open my wallet for a second VF-11 volume... unfortunately I still haven't gotten the confirmation that my preorder has been filled and is ready to ship, so I'm stuck in limbo for the duration.

[sketchley]

 

Does it feature the Radome Type unit?

 

Alas, no.

 

 

I'm a little surprised they glossed over the Super Pack and skipped the Protect Armor Pack outright since we seldom saw the VF-11 without one or the other outside of Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy.  I'm less surprised they skipped the relatively minimal custom VF-11D built for the Jamming Birds.

Don't get me wrong: there's plenty of pictures of Super Pack equipped VF-11, just a relatively light section on them (2 pages of text and art).  Oh, and all of the pictured dorsal packs are the earlier (Macross Plus) version.

While the Jamming Birds Custom might appear relatively minimal, one should keep in mind that it's all about the Super Packs.  On top of the Speaker equipped Super Packs, they also have unique engine nacelle packs (internal weapon pallet and rear-firing micro-missile launcher).

Edited March 12, 2019 by sketchley

[Mommar]

Hopefully this means it's good AND we'll see a second (or maybe third) edition for the 11.

[Mommar]

Sweet, DHL is on the way with my book!

[Roy Focker]

Stupid bank.  I preordered this from Amazon.  Couple days ago during the early am hours my card was charged.  The bank saw a foreign location and sent me a text.  I approved it when I saw it in the morning.  Guess that wasn't fast enough.  Amazon Japan didn't send me a notice that repayment was needed.  I just decided to login to Amazon a couple days later.  Saw I had to resubmit payment.  Same thing almost happened with my VF-1J.

[Seto Kaiba]

HLJ finally lists the book as in stock, but it still hasn't processed preorders.

[Bolt]

No fully armored battroid ,eh? Or Radome version? No Thunderseeker either..

Another volume please.

[Seto Kaiba]

HLJ went from Not Available Yet to Backordered instantaneously... looks like every copy they got went to a preorder customer.

CDJapan's still showing like 8 copies in stock for anyone who hasn't got it yet.

 

 

Another volume please.

Showing love to the VF-11 is, on its own, enough to justify a "please sir, can I have some more?"  

[jvmacross]

 

 

[jvmacross]

Guess having to buy a separate "battroid" edition has now officially become a thing with the Masterfiles...

Oh well.....

 

[Seto Kaiba]

 

Guess having to buy a separate "battroid" edition has now officially become a thing with the Masterfiles...

Oh well.....

So far it's only been done for the VF-1... and that was more just a deeper dive into stuff that'd already been covered including the controls, engines, etc.

[sketchley]

 

So far it's only been done for the VF-1... and that was more just a deeper dive into stuff that'd already been covered including the controls, engines, etc.

... and the VF-1EX, and why the VF-1 is still going strong in 2066.

[jvmacross]

You guys weren't kidding when you said virtually no battroid pics...in fact there is just the one...and it's more of a line art....I can totally see a VFMF VF-11 Battroid book on the way!

[jvmacross]

VF-11 Pilot Suit from the pages of VFMF VF-11 Thunderbolt....

...as worn by Isamu Dyson during Macross Plus....

[Seto Kaiba]

Isn't that art reprinted from the VF-19 book?

[jvmacross]

 

Isn't that art reprinted from the VF-19 book?

Can't recall...and most of my reference books, VFMF's included, are scattered at the moment to try and confirm...

They also show this one...from a later point in the VF-11's service history (12 years according to the caption)....

 

Looking forward to you and your team fleshing out the details...for now I'll have to make do with Google Translate...

Going over the various squadrons at the moment....nice to see the VF-11 getting some coverage....it's really a nice, clean-looking fighter!

[Seto Kaiba]

 

Can't recall...and most of my reference books, VFMF's included, are scattered at the moment to try and confirm...

Turns out it kinda is and kinda isn't.

Looks like they redrew the pictures of the TSV-30 Mk.I and TSV-40 Mk.I from pages 72 and 73 of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur with greater levels of detail for Variable Fighter Master File: VF-11 Thunderbolt.  There's a lot more fine detail on these new versions, like the ID and display screens on the chest and the visible eyeshade inside the helmet's visor.  (These were the pilot suits from Macross Plus and Macross Digital Mission VF-X respectively.)

 

 

Looking forward to you and your team fleshing out the details...for now I'll have to make do with Google Translate...

It's killing me that, unless FedEx pulls another miracle out of their hat, my copy won't arrive until Monday morning (EDT).  I live in exactly the right spot to occasionally get accidental next-day shipping from Tokyo.

HLJ really dragged their heels when the time came to actually process those preorders.  I'd have gotten it faster if I'd waited for CDJapan to post their preorder.

 

 

Going over the various squadrons at the moment....nice to see the VF-11 getting some coverage....it's really a nice, clean-looking fighter!

It's always been a gorgeous plane... though sadly a badly neglected one since most of its service life fell between the events of Macross M3 and plans for its replacement in Plus.  I was thrilled when Macross 30 not only gave its new idol a VF, but a custom VF-11.  (Kinda steamed that we never got a DX VF-19E Aisha or DX VF-11C Mina out of it.)

[jvmacross]

 

Probably... "Lost in Google Translation"...but I could not find any mention of the lovely GU-15's bayonet.....guess that will need to wait until the VFMF VF-11 Battroid edition....

 

[Seto Kaiba]

 

 

Probably... "Lost in Google Translation"...but I could not find any mention of the lovely GU-15's bayonet.....guess that will need to wait until the VFMF VF-11 Battroid edition....

The bayonet is definitely there, at least... the art is clearly for the Macross Plus version of the gunpod.

I'm unsurprised, but somewhat less than happy, that this Master File book copied the typographical error in Macross Chronicle that gave this gunpod the designation GU-15.  That's the designation of the VF-19's gunpod.  It should theoretically have been GU-12 or GU-13, given that 11 is taken by the VF-1's, 14 by the VF-17/171, and 15 by the Y/VF-19.

[Bolt]

Good catch @Seto Kaiba!

Ya that’s an obvious correction that needed to be made.. someone was asleep at the wheel there..

[jvmacross]

 

It should theoretically have been GU-12 or GU-13, given that 11 is taken by the VF-1's, 14 by the VF-17/171, and 15 by the Y/VF-19.

So there is no "official" designation for this specific gunpod?  Does the VF-11C's gunpod, which looks different, also not have an official designation?  Kawamori just plain forgot?  Or does someone else come up with these gunpod names?