Missile Load of the VF-25 Super Pack and Armored Pack

[calubin_175]

After searching through various reference material which include Bandai 1/72 manual, Macross Chronicle and lastly Master File VF-25, I began to wonder whether the Armored Pack had less missiles/rockets for dog fighting compared to the Super Pack.

I will firstly go through the missile count of the Remington type missile pods, namely the ones mounted on the shoulders and chests.

Super Pack

ラミントン近接マイクロミサイルCIWSランチャーポッドHMM-5A x2

2 x Remmington HMM-5A close-in micro-missile CIWS launcher pod: 21 rounds x2 = 42 rounds

NOTE: 15 each according to Bandai kit, 16 according to DX Renewal toy, 21 came from macross compendium, unsure of original source)

Total missiles outside of boosters= 42

Armored Pack

可動式ラミントンマイクロミサイルCIWSランチャーポッド HMM-5A×4

4x HMM-5A Mobile Remington micro-missile CIWS launcher pods - 2 on shoulders, 2 on chest:

Chest (20x2) + Shoulders (38x2) = Total 116 rounds

NOTE: Numbers came from Macross compendium and Japanese wikipedia

ラミントン近接マイクロミサイルランチャーポッド2重装填タイプ×4

4 x Remington Close-Range Micro-Missile Launcher Pods, Double-Loaded Type:

16 x 4 pods x 2 load = 128 rounds

NOTE: Numbers came from Macross compendium and Japanese wikipedia

Total missiles outside of booster= 244

Now, let's go through the missile on the booster packs.

Super Pack

ビフォーズマイクロミサイル3連装ランチャー CIMM-3A×2

2 x Bifors CIMM-3A micro-missile launchers pods (3 exit ports per launcher: up to 90 x2

SOURCE: See attached file Master File page 76

Total on boosters = 180

Armored Pack

ハワード200mm対装甲用高初速ロケット弾15連装ポッド×2

200mm anti-armor high-initial velocity rockets in 2 x Howard 15-tube launcher pods: 15x2?

NOTE: Could not find source on the load, is it likely to only have one load of 15 each?

On animation, it has shown to behave like any other micro missile pod like the super pack booster. But it was hard to see whether it has multiple loads as it was only fired once per sortie.

Total on boosters = 30?

So it makes us wonder whether the armored pack is really worth using offensive wise aside from being able to multi lock and having more missiles for close combat(battroid mode etc) rather than for dogfighting. Both packs would exhaust their fuel completely at their maximum speeds for 2 minutes(15G for super, 11.5G for armored), and the armored has been described as having an effective uptime of 20 minutes. Both packs are non-atmospheric based but could still operate at the 0.75G environment of the Macross City ships.

Has anyone compared the VF-1 armored pack with VF-1 super pack?

Edited March 16, 2015 by calubin_175

[Andras]

The Super's booster pods have a limited RoF. Three missiles each with a few seconds between volleys. The only salvo capacity they have is the shoulder packs.

The Armored pack can dump almost everything in one salvo, bar the second layer of leg missiles.

It also has the 30 'anti-armor' rockets, which I've assumed to be a heavier warhead micromissile, and perhaps less maneuverable, then normal HM micros.

eta- also AFAIK the only source for the 90 missiles in the Super's pods is the VF25MF, which is unoffical. The art on the same page contradicts the caption. We just don't know how many missiles are in the booster pods.

eta2, if you need to justify having both, the Armoreds roll into the middle of the enemy formation using their exception maneuverability and F mode PPB to get close, and then dump everything at all the enemy units near them. Once the enemy formations are shattered, the Supers can chase down the surviving remnants with their large ammo reserves.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Andras

[calubin_175]

So Super Pack has longer uptime while the Armored Pack has low uptime but higher rate of fire, designed for assault missions. Of course, the packs serve totally different roles. The super pack is more standard, while the armored pack is more specialist.

The booster's 3 tube is really for interception and hence the Super Pack really does not really boast heavy firepower independently compared the Armored Pack. Leave the heavy firepower to warships and destroids and heavy missile mounted VF-25s.

Edited March 16, 2015 by calubin_175

[Andras]

Aslo the Armored has 4 more FXA60 Antiarmor rockets in the extra armor over the hips.

[mickyg]

That scan is awesome! I've never seen that before and had no idea there was so much packed into the booster packs.

[Seto Kaiba]

That scan is awesome! I've never seen that before and had no idea there was so much packed into the booster packs.

The information in that scan is contradictory, as noted before... and it's not official setting material either, which is also problematic.

Mind you, the Armored Pack's chief advantage isn't so much the NUMBER of missiles it carries as it is the types of armament it carries (the Super Pack doesn't have those high-initial velocity anti-armor rockets and anti-warship beam guns) and the extra armor it adds to the fighter, which is the same ultra-tough next-gen armor as the VF-25's antiprojectile shield, allegedly giving it defensive ability approaching that of a battleship (which we have to take seriously, since we see the VF-25 Armored Pack tank a hit from the same guns that were popping frigates earlier).

The Super Pack's armaments are suited to dogfighting... the Armored Pack's weapons offer more options, particularly for anti-ship work.

[calubin_175]

The 90 per booster appears to be way more than the VF-1 super pack boosters. It reminds me of the 2003 Playastion 2 Macross, stil the best fighter simulator centric Macross game, where the micro missile count is at 999.

[Andras]

Went back and checked the Supers rof from the boosters. From the Frontier Itano Circus AMV, at 2:29-2:31, a 25 fires 2 successive volleys of missiles 45 frames apart. That's 1.5 seconds at 30fps between volleys of 3, so it's better then I remembered.

IIRC the discussion at the time (on Spacebattles) was if it could carry 480 missiles as per the art, and I think I said that it would take almost 5 minutes of full rate to empty them. That they use the gunpod more then missiles, so it was seem that missles are of a more limited resource then the gunpod was. With 5 minutes at full rate, they could just ignore the gunpod and lay about with micros willy nilly.

I jokingly said that if you took the VFMF at face value, you could take an Isamu spec VF19 with -25 wing pods and -19 backpack pods and have 1400 micromissiles.

[azrael]

Plot payload. It has as many missiles and bullets as the plot requires.

[Loop]

^ This I can agree with lol

[McFly!!]

Plot payload. It has as many missiles and bullets as the plot requires.

Aside from the first episode where alto ran out of gunpod ammo (which served a plot purpose), I don't recall any other instances where ammo was an issue (even when they were using conventional rifles against the juvy vajs).

[azrael]

Aside from the first episode where alto ran out of gunpod ammo (which served a plot purpose), I don't recall any other instances where ammo was an issue (even when they were using conventional rifles against the juvy vajs).

Because it didn't serve the plot. VFs could hold a kagillion missiles if the plot called for it. Same goes for fuel or any other expendable item. And it applies to any other show. If the plot calls for them to run out of energy or ammo, they run out. Period. Plot (payload, armor, etc.) trumps all.

[McFly!!]

Because it didn't serve the plot. VFs could hold a kagillion missiles if the plot called for it. Same goes for fuel or any other expendable item. And it applies to any other show. If the plot calls for them to run out of energy or ammo, they run out. Period. Plot (payload, armor, etc.) trumps all.

Yup agreed!

[abbadon]

Plot payload. It has as many missiles and bullets as the plot requires.

Agreed!

Because it didn't serve the plot. VFs could hold a kagillion missiles if the plot called for it. Same goes for fuel or any other expendable item. And it applies to any other show. If the plot calls for them to run out of energy or ammo, they run out. Period. Plot (payload, armor, etc.) trumps all.

and agreed!

[calubin_175]

The issue is not so much how many missiles are fired on screen as it will always be distorted by plot considerations. I am just wondering whether it is physically plausible to fit more loads of the 15 tube rockets within the space of the armored pack booster. If I compare the similar physical traits of the two different boosters, it does appear to be able to fit multiple loads where the exhaust vents are, which is also similar to those on the leg double load missile pods.

[Mr March]

For a franchise that places so much emphasis on missiles, very little proper trivia is written about them. For most of the valkyries we know little about the FAST/Super pack missile payloads. The Armored configurations have some details, but even some of those are missing full details (like the VF-11 Thunderbolt APS-11 Protect Armor). So you'll find a lot of contradictory information.

The Armored Valkyrie configurations serve different roles than FAST/Super Pack Valkyries, so it's not about missile count. The Armored Valkyries are basically high-mobility heavy weapons platforms, featuring rockets, grenades, beam weapons and heavy armor in addition to a large number of missiles. The Super Valkyries are basically space-optimization configurations, designed for extended operational time and maneuverability in space with some additional missile ordnance.

The VF-1 Super Valkyrie is never provided with an official missile count. Yes, even still to this day, after all that's been published about the damned thing. There is the unofficial analysis that many of us fans have discovered, in that the Super Valkyrie's first appearance in SDFM seems to indicate it has a payload of 30 missiles indirectly confirmed through dialog. The 30-missile theory is also supported by the internal diagrams for the VF-1 FAST Packs in the DYRL Gold Book poster. That's the best that we've been able to come up with.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Mr March

[Valkyrie Driver]

Besides, how many times do they volley missiles, in a single fight (3-4 avg), and I'm thinking they have to be out of ammo after the first volley, because the racks don't look like they can hold an extra row of missiles (to me). Then again OT solves everything...

[chyll2]

Aside from the first episode where alto ran out of gunpod ammo (which served a plot purpose), I don't recall any other instances where ammo was an issue (even when they were using conventional rifles against the juvy vajs).

I also remember on the pilot episode, 25F has purged the supers prior to entering the City that it is bare and even no missile payload on the wing, but upon entrance, the red vajs got hit by missile.

[McFly!!]

I also remember on the pilot episode, 25F has purged the supers prior to entering the City that it is bare and even no missile payload on the wing, but upon entrance, the red vajs got hit by missile.

Yup, anime magic! Could they have been from a mobile SAM installation? I remember that they also showed tanks firing at the vajs

[Mr March]

The editing clearly wanted to give the impression it was the VF-25 that fired the missiles.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Does the VF-25 have internal missile launchers we don't know about...?

[McFly!!]

Lol well the vaj continuously make their own missiles...

[Mr March]

I think the VF-25F Messiah firing missiles sans-Super Packs was just a dramatic conceit to make the scene work. If the animators had a little more forethought, they could have simply mounted underwing missiles on the VF-25F in the previous scenes to be prepared for Vajra sequence, but that's anime (and really, that's filmmakiing, period).

[Andras]

Frame by Frame shows 3 missiles hit, they seem to be about the size of the larger VF171 underwing missiles (AAMM-05D).

Three missiles is an 'odd' choice, you'd expect an even number if they were stored in symetrical bays.

[chyll2]

Frame by Frame shows 3 missiles hit, they seem to be about the size of the larger VF171 underwing missiles (AAMM-05D).

Three missiles is an 'odd' choice, you'd expect an even number if they were stored in symetrical bays.

[Andras]

Yes, too bad they weren't shown at all in the space fight leading up it. And the racks are are usually mounted in pairs, so there should have been 6. Paired racks fire missiles at the same time, so again, 3 missiles does't work according to what is seen on screen. 2, 4, or 6.

Are VF25s ever shown on screen with triple underwing racks, or are they all Armored and Supers? Are the triple racks only in VFMF?

Edited March 19, 2015 by Andras

[calubin_175]

Correct me if I am wrong, but if the VF-25 is designed as a passive stealth craft, then exterior missiles would have been minimised. However, I don't think stealth applies to all opposing factions that don't rely on radar.

I think pretty much everything after the VF-11 has stealth factors, hence the internalised missile bays, gun pod storage and angled shaped gun pods.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes, too bad they weren't shown at all in the space fight leading up it. And the racks are are usually mounted in pairs, so there should have been 6. Paired racks fire missiles at the same time, so again, 3 missiles does't work according to what is seen on screen. 2, 4, or 6.

Unless the pilot in question was locked on to multiple targets at the same time... which is something every VF has been able to do since the original series.

Are VF25s ever shown on screen with triple underwing racks, or are they all Armored and Supers? Are the triple racks only in VFMF?

They're pretty much always shown kitted out for space use in the Macross Frontier series itself... and I don't recall how they were armed in Macross 30 when you don't have a Super, Armored, or Tornado Pack on.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if the VF-25 is designed as a passive stealth craft, then exterior missiles would have been minimised. However, I don't think stealth applies to all opposing factions that don't rely on radar.

I think pretty much everything after the VF-11 has stealth factors, hence the internalised missile bays, gun pod storage and angled shaped gun pods.

The VF-25 has some limited passive stealth features, but it's principally an active stealth craft... IIRC, Kawamori made it with the intention of specifically getting away from passively-stealthy real world silhouettes. Most VFs seem to be more active stealth than passive, the VF-17 being the principal exception because it came out between active stealth system generations.