Oldtime shipping wars? (pre-Frontier)

[Saruta]

I'm a newcomer in the fandom so I wanted to enquire about the kind of flame wars that happened in the pre-Frontier days - about characters and their relationships, not about Robotech.

I heard that there was a significant Minmay hatedom - is that true? And why would people bother hating her if she lost the triangle already, in both the series and the movie? Did Misa get her own hatedom, too? And how about Hikaru?

And what was there on M7? Or *was* there anything? I mean, apart from pointing out the obvious drawbacks in animation like canned battles.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Saruta

[jenius]

Finding M7 hate isn't hard, there have been lots of threads that you can pour through. Minmay hate may be a little harder to come by. She literally has to have the sense smacked into her in Do You Remember Love? (which you need to watch if you haven't seen it already). I've always found that the Robotech fandom had a more vocal dislike of Minmay but that's because she never really gets redeemed... she's a flighty teenage girl and then kind of a wreck in Sentinels.

[Gubaba]

No internet made shipping wars like we saw during Frontier difficult...

[Valkyrie Driver]

Honestly the only hate I have in regards to characters is Nekki Basara and Lynn Kaifun. They both needed to get a thunderpunch in the throat. Kaifun especially. If I had been the CAG for the SDF-1's pilots, I'd have put Kaifun in the hospital. Basara would have just gotten a good old throatpunch.

I hated Kaifun for his contradictory nature. Honestly though I think he was supposed to be hated. He claimed to be a pacifist, yet he started more fights than the Soldiers he claimed to abhor. The worst part is, I've known people exactly like him.

Basara, was just a nuisance. He wanted to share his music with people, and change them, which is admirable. The way he went about it was just obnoxious.

That's really the only character hate I feel. As for Minmay, I've known girls like her, who selfishly ask for sacrifices and are oblivious to the truth of their requests. It's sad, really.

Above all, I like how despite the fact that there are some characters that are just caricatures of humans, the characters themselves still seem real and human despite how over the top an tropetastic they are.

[Saruta]

I did see DYRL though I have a problem taking in its characterization of Misa. I mean she's a lady of steel in SDFM; even in distress she would act in utmost rationality (yes, this includes her behaviour on the Mars base; she was trapped while taking a risk for her ship, and going out romantically was better than panicking). Then in DYRL she just grabs that joystick from behind and very nearly crashes the Valk?!

As for Minmay asking for sacrifices... I'm a bit lost here. You mean when she was asking Hikaru to be in places then missing him? Well, she really didn't know there would be a scramble there and a problem here? There seems to be something I did not "get" somewhere, so do enlighten me please.

I can very much understand Robotech hatred of Minmei (their version of the name is like that I think). There is a key difference that's not even in the plot but in the casting: Mari Iijima is a decent singer, while Reba West can't sing. Therefore, with Macross!Minmay, we see a good upstart songstress whose career is boosted by being the main singing girl on the ship - and then on Earth as most of the real stars probably got killed; still, she deserved a singing career anyway, and one can see how it grew bigger by her merits as well as the situation. But with Robotech!Minmei, we see a bad singer being inflated to stardom artificially. Many people would hate that. Whether the problem was intentional or just the result of a bad casting agency (or plain limited budget), I would not know.

...and yes, strongly seconded! That's one of the big things with Macross; you can recognize the types. I guess that a heavy dose of watching reality went into them. This applies to Frontier as well; I found that the best way to understand Ranka's actions was to ask a couple of real teenage girls and a psychologist who works with them a lot. It's not just the mecha that are "realistic".

Above all, I like how despite the fact that there are some characters that are just caricatures of humans, the characters themselves still seem real and human despite how over the top an tropetastic they are.

[Tochiro]

Saruta - both 'Minmay' and 'Minmei' are used in SDFMTV. Just a heads up.

[JB0]

I... don't know why I expected a thread about the hazards of entering the interstellar freight-carrying business.

[Jefuemon]

I think the only shipping wars we have around here are EMS vs. SAL vs. DHL vs. FedEx.

For the record, I myself prefer EMS.

[JB0]

I think the only shipping wars we have around here are EMS vs. SAL vs. DHL vs. FedEx.

For the record, I myself prefer EMS.

FedEx x Sheryl!

[Mr March]

There's been plenty of fans who have passed through MW over the years such that almost every Macross character, relationship and production has been criticized at some point. Yes, some criticisms had climbed to the top of the popularity pile in decades past; Minmay is annoying, Robotech Minmay is far worse, Macross 7 is awful, et cetera. But I don't believe there is a concensus about any particular shipping wars or criticisms across the board. Except perhaps that Michael Bay sucks

[Valkyrie Driver]

By Minmay selfishly asking for sacrifices, I was specifically referring to the last few episodes. Minmay is a very mercurial character. She asks Hikaru to leave the military because she can't stand the uncertainty. He found value and purpose as a fighter pilot, and he was needed. He had a duty to protect the people that were left, and there weren't any people to replace him. Minmay just selfishly asked him to stop and got upset when he didn't just agree, not realizing his feelings on the matter, or how important it was for him to continue.

It's not an uncommon occurrence with the military actually. That's what I was getting at.

[Saruta]

Valkyrie Driver: thanks! I did not notice that part much, because I just had the feeling she was soundly off her rockers by the time. She was not the most mentally stable character to start with, she still managed to kick a lot of ass (as a girl stranded in space and then as a star), but after having seen most of the planet wiped out and THEN getting abused, if not outright raped, by her drunken cousin/lover/manager, while also seeing her career apparently wither (if only because said manager was not brilliant)... who would blame her for "losing it"?

Hikaru did seem to take it seriously, come to think of it. He did not know of the abuse. So from his vantage point it does look like Minmay just dumping herself on him out of nowhere and demanding that he give up what is now his life, and what she originally inspired, too.

Anyway... perosnally, for some reason, the only pair in all of Macross I care about is Basara/Sivil (I do realize it's also probably the cheesiest pair in all of Macross, "a rock star and a space vampire who started off as enemies but now can't be together because she darn near killed him and would hate to finish him next time" is not your next door romantic story). I have not seen much discussion of that, it appears that the M7 haters hate it for other stuff while the M7 lovers love it for other stuff?

Edited March 10, 2015 by Saruta

[JB0]

RE: The Lynns.

In the post-war arc where Minmay really comes off looking bad, the love triangle has already been resolved. Hikaru and Misa are kind of an item. And then Minmay saunters in with her emotional crowbar and starts prying them apart. It's worth noting that she didn't just ask him to give up his career, she tried to upend his entire life(and was fairly successful at it, too).

In fairness, at this point in the story HER life is kinda coming apart at the seams. Hikaru's been the one fixed point in her life since that fateful day at the launch ceremony, and she's clinging to it for all it's worth.

I don't really think she even wants Hikaru SPECIFICALLY, just wants what he represents. In her eyes, he's a chance for a life with some semblance of structure and purpose. A pilot's career isn't going to provide that stability at that time, but it's a minor problem! It can be fixed!

As far as Kaifun's hypocrisy goes... I view his postwar behavior as the result of someone in a very different place than his prewar self.

Prewar, he's a consistent anti-military ultra-pacifist. He certainly wasn't in the right place for that attitude, but his beliefs were strong. His willing participation in the final attack seems an acknowledgement of the war's necessity, his acceptance that there times you just can't avoid a fight.

Postwar... everything is gone. Like many, he's crushed by the devastation of his home and looking for someone to blame. Many would have blamed the zentradi. Kaifun takes a different tack.

That old anti-military routine comes easy, but the idealist pacifism that fueled it originally has been supplanted by hatred and sorrow. And thus did Lynn Kaifun become Darth Douchebagius.

That he apparently has a thing for his cousin and she's still pining over her old boyfriend in the military doesn't exactly help matters, either.

They're both still being complete jerkfaces, of course. But it's at least understandable how they got there.

[Mr March]

RE: The Lynns.

In the post-war arc where Minmay really comes off looking bad, the love triangle has already been resolved. Hikaru and Misa are kind of an item. And then Minmay saunters in with her emotional crowbar and starts prying them apart. It's worth noting that she didn't just ask him to give up his career, she tried to upend his entire life(and was fairly successful at it, too).

In fairness, at this point in the story HER life is kinda coming apart at the seams. Hikaru's been the one fixed point in her life since that fateful day at the launch ceremony, and she's clinging to it for all it's worth.

I don't really think she even wants Hikaru SPECIFICALLY, just wants what he represents. In her eyes, he's a chance for a life with some semblance of structure and purpose. A pilot's career isn't going to provide that stability at that time, but it's a minor problem! It can be fixed!

As far as Kaifun's hypocrisy goes... I view his postwar behavior as the result of someone in a very different place than his prewar self.

Prewar, he's a consistent anti-military ultra-pacifist. He certainly wasn't in the right place for that attitude, but his beliefs were strong. His willing participation in the final attack seems an acknowledgement of the war's necessity, his acceptance that there times you just can't avoid a fight.

Postwar... everything is gone. Like many, he's crushed by the devastation of his home and looking for someone to blame. Many would have blamed the zentradi. Kaifun takes a different tack.

That old anti-military routine comes easy, but the idealist pacifism that fueled it originally has been supplanted by hatred and sorrow. And thus did Lynn Kaifun become Darth Douchebagius.

That he apparently has a thing for his cousin and she's still pining over her old boyfriend in the military doesn't exactly help matters, either.

They're both still being complete jerkfaces, of course. But it's at least understandable how they got there.

Amazing post. I really like your reading on these two characters. This type of analysis is a rare treat. Well done.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Indeed.

I was aiming more specifically at the pre-war/wartime Kaifun, because it's easier to understand the anger and resentment he feels post war. I just feel that given his ardent opposition to the military, and war in general, it's hypocritical for him to be the instigator for violence. It's interesting.

There are martial arts that most purport to be pacifist, Aikido, some of the internal forms of Kung Fu, specifically. In Aikido, it's not really pacifist, because one of the core tenants is that you accept responsibility for your actions and your intentions. Where a warrior would pursue actions designed to harm with the intent to do so, an AIkidoka pursues actions that prevent harm to himself with the intent of doing only that. The Aikidoka accepts that his opponent may be harmed because of his actions, and intentions, but that is not the goal, as it is with the warrior.

Kaifun pursues actions and intentions that will result in harm, and that is the outcome he desires. But he claims the moral high ground because it was not he that threw the first punch. It's interesting to explore such an obviously belligerent character that is so self-deluded by his supposedly pacifist ideology. Kaifun is displacing his own feelings onto the military personnel of the SDF-1. He embodies the very thing he claims to oppose, and that's a fascinating thing to explore philosophically.

It goes back to a quote from Ghandi, "It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence." I can tell you that there is no group of people more opposed to war than warriors. We train every day to the perfection of our craft, ready to go to war when called. We hope the day never comes, we pray for it, because we know it will be us who will be taken from our homes, kept from our families, and put in constant peril for the good of our people. We don't want that any more than people want us taken from our homes and families.

Kaifun's assertion that soldiers like war and killing is laughably absurd. No sane and moral person likes to end lives through violence. It is that Warriors are prepared to do it on the behalf of those who cannot or will not. The reason I'm on about this is that it is a commonly held belief among the uneducated, and Kaifun is actually a reflection of the American entertainment industry's view on soldiers from that time. In 1982 the Vietnam war had only been over for 7 years, it was still fresh in a lot of minds, and Vietnam Veterans were still very much misunderstood. So he's a caricature of a self proclaimed pacifist. He's also the embodiment of Japan's own internal political wranglings over the legitimacy of the JSDF.

Science Fiction is full of allegory, and often serves as an outlet for social commentary through non inflammatory means.

[Saruta]

It goes back to a quote from Ghandi, "It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence." I can tell you that there is no group of people more opposed to war than warriors. We train every day to the perfection of our craft, ready to go to war when called. We hope the day never comes, we pray for it, because we know it will be us who will be taken from our homes, kept from our families, and put in constant peril for the good of our people. We don't want that any more than people want us taken from our homes and families.

Kaifun's assertion that soldiers like war and killing is laughably absurd. No sane and moral person likes to end lives through violence. It is that Warriors are prepared to do it on the behalf of those who cannot or will not. The reason I'm on about this is that it is a commonly held belief among the uneducated, and Kaifun is actually a reflection of the American entertainment industry's view on soldiers from that time. In 1982 the Vietnam war had only been over for 7 years, it was still fresh in a lot of minds, and Vietnam Veterans were still very much misunderstood. So he's a caricature of a self proclaimed pacifist. He's also the embodiment of Japan's own internal political wranglings over the legitimacy of the JSDF.

Science Fiction is full of allegory, and often serves as an outlet for social commentary through non inflammatory means.

That Macross, especially SDFM, has a lot of social commentary, is well known - but wait, you state things about warriors with no quotes. You're actually in an army?

I would REALLY appreciate comments on Macross portrayal of soldier life from someone who knows it in reality.

The two professions that end to feature prominently in Macross are the soldier and the singer. But I guess the creators would know the life of idol singers reasonably well, they're in the entertainment industry themselves. With Frontier they actually made an idol singer in the proces of making the anime. With SDFM, while this sadly did not happen to such an extent, nevertheless there was a shy, then blossoming, beginner portraying a character with similar career (minus the war and associated peak of fame, but both the character and the singer ended up leaving their homeland). With M7 there was an established rock star involved. With all that and more, I guess the "social commentary" regarding singers would be pretty close.

There would not be actual soldiers involved. So what's up with them in the series/movies? Did they "hit the target" with their stuff? I mean, some things look outright improbable, notably Misa Hayase's position at her age - but is it *really* improbable, and is the general gist right?..

[Valkyrie Driver]

That Macross, especially SDFM, has a lot of social commentary, is well known - but wait, you state things about warriors with no quotes. You're actually in an army?

I would REALLY appreciate comments on Macross portrayal of soldier life from someone who knows it in reality.

The two professions that end to feature prominently in Macross are the soldier and the singer. But I guess the creators would know the life of idol singers reasonably well, they're in the entertainment industry themselves. With Frontier they actually made an idol singer in the proces of making the anime. With SDFM, while this sadly did not happen to such an extent, nevertheless there was a shy, then blossoming, beginner portraying a character with similar career (minus the war and associated peak of fame, but both the character and the singer ended up leaving their homeland). With M7 there was an established rock star involved. With all that and more, I guess the "social commentary" regarding singers would be pretty close.

There would not be actual soldiers involved. So what's up with them in the series/movies? Did they "hit the target" with their stuff? I mean, some things look outright improbable, notably Misa Hayase's position at her age - but is it *really* improbable, and is the general gist right?..

I do have some experience yes. I served in the US Air Force for 5 years, the last 2-ish with a Battlefield weather unit working with the US Army. It was a combat arms posting.

Even though there were no soldiers directly involved, doesn't make the story any less real. Soldiers are real people, and they have the same problems as anyone else. As a whole military personnel have their own set of unique problems, but there are parallels to any civilian career. Musicians actually have some of the same problems, like being away from home for long periods of time, sleeping in something other than their own bed. It's nowhere near as stark as on deployment (I never actually deployed, just speaking from my experience with wargame exercises), where at best you might be sleeping on a cot, at worst you're curled up beside a rock. They don't face the constant peril and fear of death, but the experiences are parallel.

Business executives can end up away from friends and family for extended periods of time, and it can be wearing on relationships. Again there is a stark contrast in the experiences in terms of consequences, but none the less they're parallel.

The thing that is unique among the military is that every 2 years or so, you can expect to be uprooted and moved across the country, or even across he globe. Your mileage may vary, I spent 2.5 months in Texas, 10-ish months in Mississippi, 2 years in Louisiana, and almost 2 years in Kentucky/Tennessee. I moved around a lot in five years. That's not counting schools I attended, or exercises I participated in. So there's a lot of travel involved. Some folks never leave their first base. Others move every year. Being uprooted and moved to God-knows-where is just a fact of life. It's uncommon for that to happen in the private sector.

As for hitting the target, it's somewhat off base. Hikaru is what 16 during SDFM? Professional Soldiers are usaully 18 by the time they hit the operational side of life. In order to be a fighter pilot in real life, you have to have a Commission, which means a Bachelor's degree (at least in the United States Military). The only non commissioned officers that fly are Warrant Officers in the US Army. Every other branch requires a commission. The army allows enlisted personnel to fly UAV's but those are not armed, and they're little more than glorified R/C planes (the RQ-7 I swear is powered by a weedwhacker engine, it's high pitched and sounds pissed) with cameras on them.

But, in times of great need restrictions can get lax, people can lie about their age, people can fake their education credentials. It becomes obvious and they don't last, not to mention the consequences of fraudulent enlistment. There are probably a million things I could do to dissect this but suspension of disbelief aside, it may not be accurate, but it is plausible, and believable, which is the most important part to me.

If we had perfect realism in our entertainment, it wouldn't be. Military life is boring, standing around for hours in for a parade, or showing up 3 hours before the commander to commander's call just because everyone higher in your chain of command keeps adding 15 minutes to the in-place time (Commander says, commander's call will be at 0800, the DO says be there at 0745, the flight commander's say be there at 0730, the flight chief says 0715, the section sups say 0700, the team leads say 0645, and then your supervisor tells you to be there at 0630, leaving you to say, gotta be there at 0615...) Then there's the hours of boredom between things happening. You end up playing cards, or Xbox, or whatever because there's nothing to do, and the NCO's and Officers can't even come up with something to occupy you. But you can't just go home because there's nothing to do, because that would make too much sense. You don't see that in Macross, thank God.

[Saruta]

Valkyrie Driver - thanks a lot! Just what I wanted to know...

Just realized the age part might have something to do with the world just being through a few years of vicious war.

(And yeah, re siners, my use of "sadly" for the SDFM situation was misguided, sorry. I've had a long read of the Mari Iijima thread).

[Valkyrie Driver]

Oh you're more than welcome. While I'm currently in my second go at the University thing, I never really stopped reading. It's been my experience that good writers that really want to tell a good story, seek out people with the experiences that they themselves don't have, and integrate them. For instance, Blaine Lee Pardoe, a writer of many Battletech novels, sourced much knowledge from other people with varied backgrounds (I have a metric ton of Battletech novels, one of my other collections, from which I derive much pleasure). In fact, another Battletech example, Michael Stackpole, actually read the paper "Modelling the Revolution in Military Affairs" By Dr. Mark Herman, and spoke to the man, while doing research on military planning for 'Grave Covenant" which extensively deals with that subject. If only hollywood had that sort of diligence when producing a military movie (there are good examples, Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers, We Were Soldiers, Black Hawk Down, Lone Survivor, Act of Valor to name a few), and then there are the glaring failures like (TopGun, Stealth, Platoon, Apocalypse Now, Behind Enemy Lines, The Siege, Crimson Tide, to name some) that fail to humanize the military characters and just don't quite get it right.

TopGun was a sappy love story with the US Navy Fighter Weapons School as a back drop. Most commanders would have grounded Maverick and never let him fly again after the crap he pulled. The dogfights were bland and uninteresting (you want good dogfight sequences, play Ace Combat:Assault Horizon, or watch the History Channel's Dogfights. All they do in TopGun is bank and aileron roll. That's not dogfighting, a dogfight is like a wrestling match, never quite finishing a maneuver, because you have to react to the enemy).

Platoon and Apocalypse Now, are good movies, and they get some stuff right, but the overall tone of the movie and the way it portrays the characters is a bit wrong. It depicts soldiers as Psychotics and addicts, broken mentally and morally. Hollywood also tends to depict soldiers as stupid, and the dregs of society. Some of the most intelligent people I have met were soldiers (When I say soldiers I mean anyone in the profession of arms, not just the Army, but Airmen, Sailors and Marines too, even though each of them would argue about it, even though it's not worth getting knotted panties...).

I'll be the first to admit that those of us that have put on the Uniform come out a bit twisted in the humor department. We find humor in the strangest places, and often times we laugh at things that mortify most people.

Warriors live their lives knowing it's finite, and that it could be gone tomorrow. So we don't really put a lot of stock in social morays. We don't put much stock in paying it safe.

In fact a company called Ranger Up! has a T-Shirt (they make clothing and MMA apparel that is geared towards current and former military) that says:

"Life is not a journey to the grave, with the intent of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather, to skid in broadside thoroughly used up, totally worn out, leaking oil, on fire, and reeking of Gunpowder, Women, and whiskey, loudly proclaiming, Wow, what a ride..."

That about sums up how warriors feel about life. You only get one, and you ain't making it out alive, might as well have fun along the way. Thing is, Roy Focker pretty well lives it. He's a professional, and he does his job the best he can, and all he can do is live from one day to the next. I praise Kawamori for this, Roy's attitude is bang on.

HIkaru, joins up to protect Minmay, a little misguided sure, but everyone joins for at least one reason. He found his calling, and turned out to be fine officer. Max proves to be an able pilot, but he's also intelligent, and he even goes toe to toe with Kaifun idealogically, and wins (Kaifun resorts to an ad hominem attack on Max's character, and uses hasty generalization to apply said attack to all in the military. Kaifun couldn't debate, his arguments were all based on fallacious logic).

For guys like me, kaifun is partially right. I do enjoy fighting. I enjoy the contest, and the thrill of victory. I like winning, I like to pit my skills against another, it's competition and it's fun. That said, I don't enjoy inflicting pain, I don't enjoy having pain inflicted on me, but a good fight leaves me satisfied. Even going home or to bed, battered and waking up sore the next morning, makes me feel alive. I play airsoft for the same reason, I may come home bleeding, and sore, and exhausted, but God it was fun.

Sadists, Psychos, Sociopaths, they don't make it. They get found and booted, because they're a detriment to good order and discipline. I have not seen anyone in the Macross Universe that exhibits those traits (maybe some of the villains but that's expected...) so Kawamori gets mad props for that.

[treatment]

Meltrandi ships ftw! Angular and pretty.

Why anyone would want the cucumber ships of the Zentraedi will forever be bizarro...

[JB0]

Just realized the age part might have something to do with the world just being through a few years of vicious war.

And well... the Macross was in pretty dire straits anyways.

From the start they had a LOT of hardware sitting idle with no pilots due to the decompression of the Prometheus and Daedalus, and were under regular attack while effectively behind enemy lines with pilots still adapting to space. I doubt they much CARED if someone was underage, as long as they could fly a jet or drive a mech.

Heck, they put Max in a fighter and he apparently had to wear corrective lenses to fly.

In that regard, Hikaru was at the head of the line. He ALREADY knew how to fly well enough to make a living as a stunt pilot. He'd even already figured out space flight to a degree, since he wasn't dead and vacuum-frozen with Minmei.

As long as they could teach him to shoot, who cared if he was a bit young and mouthed off to his superiors with distressing regularity? (Of course, when your immediate superior is Roy Focker, mouthing off might be considered part of the assignment.)

They even call out in the series, I believe when Hikaru is first assigned Max and Kakizaki, that they're putting people in cockpits and putting them in command of others at an unusually rapid pace.

It stands to reason that the same justifications would apply to throwing underage folks into the fray(they're short of hands and it's implied they're suffering heavy attrition among the hands they DO have).

It's somewhat amazing they didn't have a draft in place, actually. But I suppose they were in a strong position for recruitment, which would mitigate the need for a draft and engender good will among the civilians.

After all, the folks in town weren't exactly isolated from the battle. They suffered every time a missile made it through the hull or the ship had to be transformed. Everyone knew someone on the front lines, everyone had lost someone to the zentradi attacks, likely before they even left Earth. That would make the civilian populace far more prone to volunteer service(case in point: Hikaru, the pacifist war hero).

[Nekko Basara]

Heck, they put Max in a fighter and he apparently had to wear corrective lenses to fly.

Maybe Max just wore those glasses to look cool, or perhaps he was especially light-sensitive. They were always tinted, after all.

That makes me wonder - do we ever see Max without his glasses on? I can't recall ever seeing him that way, but surely it must have happened at some point, right?

[JB0]

Maybe Max just wore those glasses to look cool, or perhaps he was especially light-sensitive. They were always tinted, after all.

I can't imagine them letting him wear them in flight if they were for the LCF. And, well, the helmets have a built-in sunshade that reduces light AND has a higher LCF. Hikaru uses it in the opening, and the episode where Kakizaki dies(spoilers).

That makes me wonder - do we ever see Max without his glasses on? I can't recall ever seeing him that way, but surely it must have happened at some point, right?

Not that I recall. For all I can tell, he sleeps in them, which is a terrible idea for wire frames. Though I grant that they may be made with an overtech shape-memory alloy that is more flexible while still returning to form when not stressed... and now I want overtech glasses of my very own. Edited March 14, 2015 by JB0

[Mr March]

Max was drawn with glasses for the same reason animators draw all kinds of quick visual cues; for the audience to distinguish two otherwise identically drawn characters from one another. It's an animators trick to draw characters as fast and as easily as possible, just give one blue hair or glasses. Or both!

Meltrandi ships ftw! Angular and pretty.

Why anyone would want the cucumber ships of the Zentraedi will forever be bizarro...

Are you kidding? The Meltrandi LOVE Zentradi ships

[Nekko Basara]

I can't imagine them letting him wear them in flight if they were for the LCF. And, well, the helmets have a built-in sunshade that reduces light AND has a higher LCF. Hikaru uses it in the opening, and the episode where Kakizaki dies(spoilers).

Ok, but didn't somebody determine that the pilots in SDF couldn't have looked over their shoulders without the "beaks" on their helmets hitting the VF-1's canopy? I'm not sure how much we want to mix realism with the helmet designs.

I sort of like to imagine that, because they have such a mild tint and it can vary from scene-to-scene, Max has the equivalent of 1st-generation Transition lenses, which never seemed to get completely transparent even in low light. Which would make them undertechnology by the time he lives in. I guess this is all a specialized subset of head-canon I'm calling "eye-canon."

Not that I recall. For all I can tell, he sleeps in them, which is a terrible idea for wire frames.

Yeah, my first thought for a scene where he might have taken them off was in M7 when he falls asleep in that room near the bridge, and all the bunnies come and fawn over him. But, of course, he has them on then because he didn't mean to fall asleep. Do we ever see him sleeping on purpose? Maybe geniuses barely sleep just like they barely age.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Actually, corrective lenses don't stop you from being a fighter pilot. Just as long as your vision is correctable to 20/20. They'll usually try to get you PRK to get rid of the glasses or contacts, but not everyone can get PRK. My Dad has worn glasses for a long time, and he flew fighters with them. Glasses are actually preferrable to contacts, because glasses don't fall out or shift off the eye.

[Saruta]

The dogfights were bland and uninteresting (you want good dogfight sequences, play Ace Combat:Assault Horizon, or watch the History Channel's Dogfights. All they do in TopGun is bank and aileron roll. That's not dogfighting, a dogfight is like a wrestling match, never quite finishing a maneuver, because you have to react to the enemy).

I'll be the first to admit that those of us that have put on the Uniform come out a bit twisted in the humor department. We find humor in the strangest places, and often times we laugh at things that mortify most people.

Warriors live their lives knowing it's finite, and that it could be gone tomorrow. So we don't really put a lot of stock in social morays. We don't put much stock in paying it safe.

In fact a company called Ranger Up! has a T-Shirt (they make clothing and MMA apparel that is geared towards current and former military) that says:

"Life is not a journey to the grave, with the intent of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather, to skid in broadside thoroughly used up, totally worn out, leaking oil, on fire, and reeking of Gunpowder, Women, and whiskey, loudly proclaiming, Wow, what a ride..."

That about sums up how warriors feel about life. You only get one, and you ain't making it out alive, might as well have fun along the way. Thing is, Roy Focker pretty well lives it. He's a professional, and he does his job the best he can, and all he can do is live from one day to the next. I praise Kawamori for this, Roy's attitude is bang on.

For guys like me, kaifun is partially right. I do enjoy fighting. I enjoy the contest, and the thrill of victory. I like winning, I like to pit my skills against another, it's competition and it's fun. That said, I don't enjoy inflicting pain, I don't enjoy having pain inflicted on me, but a good fight leaves me satisfied. Even going home or to bed, battered and waking up sore the next morning, makes me feel alive. I play airsoft for the same reason, I may come home bleeding, and sore, and exhausted, but God it was fun.

Between dogfight details and the attitude of enjoying victory as opposed to inflicting pain, the name Isamu Dyson just comes up Though was he ever shown as a soldier, as in a member of a regular armed force? He was a test pilot in Plus, but I didn't really understand whether this made him a member of the U.N.Spacy or just a contractor. Then he cameos as an SMS pilot in the second Frontier movie, but SMS are officially contractors, and we never learn what he does there? Wonder what you think of that particular guy.

[Jefuemon]

Though was he ever shown as a soldier, as in a member of a regular armed force?

The first 5 minutes or so of Plus answers that question.

[hulagu]

Maybe Max just wore those glasses to look cool, or perhaps he was especially light-sensitive. They were always tinted, after all.

That makes me wonder - do we ever see Max without his glasses on? I can't recall ever seeing him that way, but surely it must have happened at some point, right?

Q-Rau giant Max at the end of DYRL?

[Seto Kaiba]

Though was he ever shown as a soldier, as in a member of a regular armed force? He was a test pilot in Plus, but I didn't really understand whether this made him a member of the U.N.Spacy or just a contractor. Then he cameos as an SMS pilot in the second Frontier movie, but SMS are officially contractors, and we never learn what he does there? Wonder what you think of that particular guy.

Yes, in Macross Plus, Isamu is definitely a soldier in the UN Forces.

We see his bio in both versions of Macross Plus, which marks him out as a First Lieutenant in the UN Forces and a perpetual troublemaker (his record has a LOT of disciplinary actions on it). The Macross Plus OVA opens on Isamu's last battle as a frontline soldier in the UN Spacy, before he's informed that he's going to be transferred to the New Edwards Test Flight Center because of his record of insubordination, reckless flying, etc.

Isamu's involvement in Project Super Nova is as a military-supplied test pilot... Guld, on the other hand, is a civilian on the General Galaxy payroll.

Per Macross Chronicle's mechanic sheet for Isamu's VF-19ADVANCE [VF-19EF/A], Isamu left the New UN Forces in 2059 because he'd been promoted and he wasn't at all thrilled with the the additional "Desk job" work he'd landed as a result. He wanted to fly, and SMS was apparently willing to accommodate him.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[hulagu]

The first 5 minutes or so of Plus answers that question.

That vignette was cut from the movie edition though, so you need to have watched the OVA version.

[Saruta]

Thanks - I only watched the movie, explaining why I di dnot clearly understand Isamu's status.

[JB0]

Pity, really. I vastly prefer the movie(it flows better and has fewer random leaps of logic), but the opening scenes of the OVA are just AWESOME.

[Valkyrie Driver]

There is apparently some animation n the movie that isn't in the OVA, which bugs me, because Now I have to get the movie version, which I'm pretty sure is only in Japanese...

[Brand-X]

The movie does indeed have addition scenes, and the pacing ifs far better than the OVA in my opinion, and I don't think they ever dubbed it, but the original voice acting was far superior I think. I'd certainly call it the far superior version, the only thing I'd change about it would be to includethe opening fight scene, but then again the way they introduce Isamu is far different and really works for his character. I think it's a good 10 minutes into the movie before he's introduced. We meet Sharon and Myung first, then Guld, and Isamu last.