AVF Upgrade Candidates

[Seto Kaiba]

wait... what? where the heck is there room for ammo in the head of a YF-29?

Your guess is as good as mine... though if the YF-29's head is structured anything like the old VF-1's, then it is mostly empty space.

[Valkyrie Driver]

wait... what? where the heck is there room for ammo in the head of a YF-29?

Maybe the ammo storage isn't in the head itself, but fed there from [a] magazine(s) located in the torso?

[Valkyrie Driver]

I remain endlessly amused by the fact that Star Trek has had multiple PhD'd science consultants on payroll, and maybe half of their technobabble is just thinly disguised "I'm going to try turning it off and on again". Reconfigure the primary power coupling indeed...

(Someone needs to write Paramount and tell them we want an I.T. Crowd cameo in the new TV series...)

Can that technology be retrofitted into an existing design?

Explicitly yes. In fact, it was integrated into the joints of the ADR-04-Mk.XV Super Defender to improve the speed, responsiveness, and accuracy of its target-tracking capability.

Now... whether it can be integrated into the transformation of an existing variable fighter is a great big unknown. I would assume that it can, but it would probably be a fairly major rework of the transformation system to accommodate the fact that some of the moving parts would no longer be in physical contact, which would no doubt require a good deal of recalibrating system timings and tolerances to make sure you don't have moving parts miss each other like ships in the night or run two identically-polarized components so close to each other that they jam the system up.

The 5th Generation VFs owe the speed and stability of their transformations to the linear actuator, though the actual transformation configuration itself is down entirely to the practical matters of the airframe's design.

So if someone were to revisit the VF-19 design, and redesign where necessary, and upgrade the design to use the linear actuators, better armor, better armaments and an ISC, as well as upgraded engines, you could make the VF-19 competitive to current 5th gen fighters?

Basically give the VF-19 a drawing board upgrade to gen 4.5. similar to the way the F/A-18E/F was to the F/A-18C/D?

[Seto Kaiba]

So if someone were to revisit the VF-19 design, and redesign where necessary, and upgrade the design to use the linear actuators, better armor, better armaments and an ISC, as well as upgraded engines, you could make the VF-19 competitive to current 5th gen fighters?

Basically give the VF-19 a drawing board upgrade to gen 4.5. similar to the way the F/A-18E/F was to the F/A-18C/D?

It's theoretically possible... though whether it's economical is another matter entirely. It's not a ringing endorsement of the idea that Macross Galaxy thought it'd be more effective to build a more durable pilot instead when they built VF-19C's for their garrison.

By the time you were done redesigning and upgrading the VF-19 to accommodate that modernization, you'd be well into the same territory occupied by Vistula & Oder's Sv-52γ Oryol from Macross the Ride: "a custom Valkyrie of unknown origin produced to imitate the Sv-52".

[kajnrig]

It's theoretically possible... though whether it's economical is another matter entirely. It's not a ringing endorsement of the idea that Macross Galaxy thought it'd be more effective to build a more durable pilot instead when they built VF-19C's for their garrison.

By the time you were done redesigning and upgrading the VF-19 to accommodate that modernization, you'd be well into the same territory occupied by Vistula & Oder's Sv-52γ Oryol from Macross the Ride: "a custom Valkyrie of unknown origin produced to imitate the Sv-52".

It does seem like such an extensive overhaul would necessarily have to be the work of a dedicated hobbyist rather than a systemic effort. It's hardly uncommon in Macross; I can easily see Isamu crashing an air show in his original YF-19 (not the Advance), updated to modern specs.

Not that it needs it, of course. Nothing can compete with the original 19 except the 21, facts and technology be damned.

[Seto Kaiba]

It does seem like such an extensive overhaul would necessarily have to be the work of a dedicated hobbyist rather than a systemic effort. It's hardly uncommon in Macross; I can easily see Isamu crashing an air show in his original YF-19 (not the Advance), updated to modern specs.

Such extensive customization is not without precedent¹, but it is a bit of a mechanical nightmare...

It's more the sort of thing you'd expect from a Vanquish League air racer... admittedly unless the pilot were backed by a major corporation like Shinsei, General Galaxy, etc. they probably wouldn't be able to afford an AVF at all, let alone upgrade it like that. (Especially in light of arms export restrictions that prevent even emigrant fleet governments from building a VF-19 at its full performance.)

1. Two of the Macross the Ride Valkyries fit this mold... the aforementioned Sv-52γ Oryol flown by Magdalena Zielonaska had been upgraded with parts and technology from a variety of sources (including VF-17 engines) such that it was on an equal footing to a VF-171. Likewise, protagonist Hakuna Aoba's VF-0 Custom "Zeak" built by the Robbins Design Company was essentially a VF-0 upgraded piecemeal until it was technically more YF-25 than VF-0.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Such extensive customization is not without precedent¹, but it is a bit of a mechanical nightmare...

It's more the sort of thing you'd expect from a Vanquish League air racer... admittedly unless the pilot were backed by a major corporation like Shinsei, General Galaxy, etc. they probably wouldn't be able to afford an AVF at all, let alone upgrade it like that. (Especially in light of arms export restrictions that prevent even emigrant fleet governments from building a VF-19 at its full performance.)

1. Two of the Macross the Ride Valkyries fit this mold... the aforementioned Sv-52γ Oryol flown by Magdalena Zielonaska had been upgraded with parts and technology from a variety of sources (including VF-17 engines) such that it was on an equal footing to a VF-171. Likewise, protagonist Hakuna Aoba's VF-0 Custom "Zeak" built by the Robbins Design Company was essentially a VF-0 upgraded piecemeal until it was technically more YF-25 than VF-0.

Funny thing about Export restrictions is, that it doesn't prevent you from modifying with locally produced components to meet or exceed original performance... Except for cost, nothing would have prevented the Frontier Fleet from producing VF-19EF's with many of the enhancements from the VF-25, by simply using locally produced off the shelf components. That just makes it a local variant.

On a related note, is there any info on the VF-0 "Zeak" custom? Pictures of the same?

[Seto Kaiba]

Funny thing about Export restrictions is, that it doesn't prevent you from modifying with locally produced components to meet or exceed original performance... Except for cost, nothing would have prevented the Frontier Fleet from producing VF-19EF's with many of the enhancements from the VF-25, by simply using locally produced off the shelf components. That just makes it a local variant.

So... funny story. The official write-ups for the export specification and locally-produced "monkey model" versions of the VF-19 do make reference to mandated restrictions on certain aspects of performance. They don't always identify what those restrictions are, but there have been mentions of functional restrictions on the avionics and a reduction in the rate of the fire control system's target acquisition for the VF-19P. The VF-19EF is identified as having been built with limiters included in certain mechanisms, though it does not mention what systems those limiters affect.

I would expect that said limits are there precisely to ensure that an emigrant fleet doesn't start producing weapons which match or exceed the performance of a fighter of the same type produced for the central New UN Forces... so they'd probably take a dim view of a VF-19 upgraded to exceed central forces spec. before the adoption of the VF-24.

On a related note, is there any info on the VF-0 "Zeak" custom? Pictures of the same?

Yes, it was the "mid-season upgrade" (for want of a better term) for Macross the Ride protagonist Hakuna Aoba, after his VF-1X++ Custom was lost in combat.

It was built around a wrecked VF-0A Phoenix by volunteers from the Robbins Design Company, which provided maintenance services to several of the Vanquish League teams and SMS. It's cobbled together out of reproduction VF-0 parts, YF-25 parts, and other custom fabricated parts intended to make the whole thing function. In practice, it's basically a YF-25 wearing the outward appearance of a VF-0, though it's still using chemical rocket sub-engines for battroid mode and various portions of it are still obviously VF-25 hardware (like the lower legs/nozzles, and wing glove) and others are obviously custom-fab like the monitor turret. It's very light on armament, mostly just a single ROV-217 laser gun on the monitor turret and a gun pod that appears to be a reproduction GPU-9 (no doubt reinforced to use more modern 35mm ammunition).

Pictures of the lineart (by Tenjin) and the customized model kit built to represent it are in Macross the Ride Visual Book 2. I'll grab a quick pic from it later.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Seto Kaiba

[Valkyrie Driver]

So... funny story. The official write-ups for the export specification and locally-produced "monkey model" versions of the VF-19 do make reference to mandated restrictions on certain aspects of performance. They don't always identify what those restrictions are, but there have been mentions of functional restrictions on the avionics and a reduction in the rate of the fire control system's target acquisition for the VF-19P. The VF-19EF is identified as having been built with limiters included in certain mechanisms, though it does not mention what systems those limiters affect.

I would expect that said limits are there precisely to ensure that an emigrant fleet doesn't start producing weapons which match or exceed the performance of a fighter of the same type produced for the central New UN Forces... so they'd probably take a dim view of a VF-19 upgraded to exceed central forces spec. before the adoption of the VF-24.

Ok. Well, that paints a disturbingly Earth-centric and authoritarian picture of the NUNG. THat's just full run production though right, not aircraft produced as technology demonstrators and testbeds?

Yes, it was the "mid-season upgrade" (for want of a better term) for Macross the Ride protagonist Hakuna Aoba, after his VF-1X++ Custom was lost in combat.

It was built around a wrecked VF-0A Phoenix by volunteers from the Robbins Design Company, which provided maintenance services to several of the Vanquish League teams and SMS. It's cobbled together out of reproduction VF-0 parts, YF-25 parts, and other custom fabricated parts intended to make the whole thing function. In practice, it's basically a YF-25 wearing the outward appearance of a VF-0, though it's still using chemical rocket sub-engines for battroid mode and various portions of it are still obviously VF-25 hardware (like the lower legs/nozzles, and wing glove) and others are obviously custom-fab like the monitor turret. It's very light on armament, mostly just a single ROV-217 laser gun on the monitor turret and a gun pod that appears to be a reproduction GPU-9 (no doubt reinforced to use more modern 35mm ammunition).

Pictures of the lineart (by Tenjin) and the customized model kit built to represent it are in Macross the Ride Visual Book 2. I'll grab a quick pic from it later.

Hmmm. Interesting. Was MtR a manga or light novel or something? I'd love to have a look at it. I don't really get what the story is, I see lot's of references to air racing, but also combat. I'm confused.

[Lorindor]

Hmmm. Interesting. Was MtR a manga or light novel or something? I'd love to have a look at it. I don't really get what the story is, I see lot's of references to air racing, but also combat. I'm confused.

Two novels and two art books. As for the details of the story, someone else has to fill in.

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok. Well, that paints a disturbingly Earth-centric and authoritarian picture of the NUNG.

*looks at Mariafokina Barnrose* "That's what she said".

In all seriousness, the central government didn't exactly have a shortage of reasons to restrict the exportation and performance of the weapons technology that was used by the emigrant fleets and planets. Between the YF-19 No.2 independently penetrating Earth's defenses, the incidences of high-performance fighters ending up in the hands of anti-government forces, and the frequency with which emigrant fleets and worlds were squabbling with each other and the Unification Government itself, it's hardly surprising that the government would take remedial action to ensure that its troops would have the biggest stick in the event that it needed to step in and knock heads together to protect one emigrant world from another, or stop both sides by intervening in a war.

THat's just full run production though right, not aircraft produced as technology demonstrators and testbeds?

That's hard to say, as it's usually only mentioned in connection with production aircraft... there weren't many testbeds and demonstrators for the 4th Generation kicking around when the restrictions were tightened. From the way the VF-19EF/A Excalibur ADVANCE mechanic sheet is phrased, it does sound like the same restrictions apply to one-off and test aircraft not operated by the central New UN Forces. Even Isamu's custom VF-19 was built off a monkey model rather than the full spec VF-19.

Hmmm. Interesting. Was MtR a manga or light novel or something? I'd love to have a look at it. I don't really get what the story is, I see lot's of references to air racing, but also combat. I'm confused.

Macross the Ride is a serialized novel that was originally published in Dengeki Hobby Magazine in twelve installments, with accompanying customized or scratch built models representing the various mecha in the story and some articles explaining various aspects of the story that depend on prior knowledge of Macross's setting.

The story was collected into two volumes, and the various supplementary materials were collected into two visual books with some additional material including interviews with the creators and a short manga epilogue.

The thrust of the story involves the Vanquish League VF air races in which many of the characters participate, though the latter part of the story involves an Earth supremacist terrorist group which attempts to hijack a resort ship.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Given that the VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, YF-30, and VF-31 are all 5th gen fighters, how do their specs stack up in relation to each other? Do you think that their performance is all in the same ball park?

[Seto Kaiba]

Given that the VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, YF-30, and VF-31 are all 5th gen fighters, how do their specs stack up in relation to each other?

The VF-25 is hands-down the weakest of the 5th Generation designs thus far unless there have been some serious cutbacks in the VF-31's production... but it's also probably the most economical of the lot.

The VF-25's two engines individually have more power than the VF-27's (1,620kN vs. 1,377kN) but the VF-27 has four of them offsetting its 43% greater mass to give it a thrust-to-weight ratio that's 19% higher than the VF-25's. The YF-29's main engines are significantly more powerful (+30%) than the VF-25's, and its two secondary engines are more powerful (+6.75%) than the VF-27's engines, which, combined with it being slightly lighter than the VF-27, give it a thrust to weight ratio that's 31.6% higher than the VF-27 and 56.4% greater than the VF-25's. The VF-27 with Super Packs is said to be roughly equivalent in performance to a YF-29 in stock configuration. The YF-30 has a refined version of the YF-29's main engines (a very slight 0.2% improvement in output), but a mass that's lighter than the VF-25 (by 4%), giving it a thrust-to-weight ratio that's 36% greater than the VF-25's, 14.2% greater than the VF-27's, and 87% that of the YF-29's.

The inertia store converter technology on the VF-25 and VF-27 was rated for 27.5G loads, the improved models in the YF-29 and YF-30 were rated for loads of 30G or possibly more.

In terms of generator output and defensive ability, the VF-25 has enough excess power to run a light form of energy conversion armor in fighter mode, while the VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30 can all operate their energy conversion armor at full power in fighter mode due to the excess output of four engines, fold wave system, or both. The VF-27 and YF-29 have also been confirmed to be capable of operating their pin-point barriers in fighter mode, and the YF-30 likely can as well. In terms of actual armor strength... well, it's off the hook here. The VF-25 and VF-27 seem to be roughly on par for armor strength, though the VF-25 has the light armor FAST pack option of the Super Pack and the heavy armor option of the Armored Pack, while the VF-27 only has the Super Pack. The YF-29's armor was said to exceed that of the VF-25 w/ Armored Pack thanks to improved materials, the fold wave system, frame reinforcement, and just plain doubling the armor's thickness. The YF-30 is supposedly comparable in defensive ability to the YF-29 as well... making both of them effectively more heavily armored than a typical cruiser-class space warship.

Weapons-wise, things are a bit fairer. The VF-25 has very few built-in weapons, but everything's modular and it's got three or four pylons per wing (depending whose stats you trust). Its Super Pack and Armored Pack make it the ordinance leader of the 5th Generation by a VAST margin with a stonking insane missile capacity of over two hundred micro-missiles in either option, more than double what can be carried by the YF-29 or YF-30, while still leaving four other stations open for longer-ranged party favors. The YF-29 only carries 100 micro-missiles in its many internal launchers, and augments that with a couple dozen carried inside its Super Packs. The YF-30 carries an estimated 108 micro-missiles, has no known Super Pack, and just four under-wing stations (that we know of). In gunpod terms, the VF-25 might get the short end of the boomstick vs. the heavy quantum reaction, heavy quantum beam, and micro-dimension eater beam gun pod units available to the VF-27, YF-29, YF-30, and VF-31 though. It's unclear if the VF-31's can do beam grenade mode, but the others all can. The VF-25's Tornado Pack and YF-29's beam turret also give them a bit more punch in the gun department than the VF-27, YF-30, and VF-31.

Do you think that their performance is all in the same ball park?

Oh my, no... the YF-29 Durandal/Percival, YF-30 Chronos, and presumably VF-31 Siegfried are a cut above the earlier 5th Generation Valkyries.

This is due to improvements in engine technology (+30% output vs. the VF-25), inertia store converter technology (+9% vs. the VF-25), armor and weapons tech, and the introduction of performance-enhancing technology like the fold wave system and fold dimension resonance system.

The VF-27's performance was significantly higher than the VF-25's, to the extent that a flesh-and-blood pilot cannot operate a VF-27 to its full potential even with an inertia store converter. The YF-29's performance is noted to be roughly comparable to (or slightly better than) the performance of a VF-27 with its Super Pack equipped. The YF-30 rivals the YF-29 in almost all respects, except the YF-29's superior thrust to weight ratio and the YF-30's superior fold wave system.

[Sildani]

Don't forget, the VF-27 also has the 35mm beam machine guns in the secondary engine nacelles.

[Valkyrie Driver]

So the Numbers actually represent a progression in capability in the 5th Gen fighters? I know that's fairly archetypical of fighter designations in general but it seems more apparent here.

For comparison's sake how did the VF-19 compare to the VF-22?

[Seto Kaiba]

So the Numbers actually represent a progression in capability in the 5th Gen fighters? I know that's fairly archetypical of fighter designations in general but it seems more apparent here.

Sort of... it's not really a steady upward trend, it zig-zags a fair bit with severity varying depending on what performance attribute you're talking about. When we finally get specs on the VF-31 we'll know for sure what the trendline looks like, but it seems like the same kind of disparity between the regular and special forces Valkyries in the 3rd Generation, where you had a well-rounded but not terribly high-spec main VF and higher-performance specialized VFs for the special forces.

In this case, I think the VF-25 and VF-31 represent your "well rounded" VF, while the VF-27 and YF-29 are your high-spec low-volume types.

For comparison's sake how did the VF-19 compare to the VF-22?

The VF-19 was actually the one with better engine power overall, a better thrust-to-weight ratio in both regimes, and better operational versatility thanks to its less severe emphasis on passive stealth and ability to carry ordinance both externally and internally.

In most other respects they were pretty much on the same level, having been developed at the same time, side-by-side, to the same standards.

[Valkyrie Driver]

So, with the latest episode out, it makes me wonder how the VF-31 and SV-262 compare to each other. On one hand you have ace pilots that can push the plane hard, and get fantastic results, but the SV-262 seems to be a bit better. Is it just that Windermerean pilots are better?

[Seto Kaiba]

So, with the latest episode out, it makes me wonder how the VF-31 and SV-262 compare to each other. On one hand you have ace pilots that can push the plane hard, and get fantastic results, but the SV-262 seems to be a bit better. Is it just that Windermerean pilots are better?

Unfortunately that's a question we can't answer at the present time... without the official specs, we can't tell you how they compare in objective terms. We're probably a month or two out from having official specs published, since they usually come with the packaging of the model kits or toys.

My entirely non-objective wild-arse guess on the matter would be that the Sv-262 is likely marginally less advanced than the VF-31, and certainly less versatile. The Siegfried feels like a true multirole fighter thanks to the ordinance container, wing pylons, etc., while the Draken feels more like it's meant to be an air superiority fighter. I'd wager the Draken's probably an inferior aircraft to the Siegfried on its own... and that superior Windermerean reflexes and physical abilities are making up the difference.

[d3v]

I'm guessing that the Li'l Draken's give the 262 a bit of an edge in certain situations. Their almost Harrier-like ability to rotate and vector thrust likely helps in certain situations. Not sure though if they provide enough thrust to give the Draken an edge in speed though (I'm guessing no).

[Valkyrie Driver]

So, now that a few months have passed since the end of Macross Delta, do we have any new info on thee VF-31 or SV-262, that warrants discussion?

[Seto Kaiba]

10 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

So, now that a few months have passed since the end of Macross Delta, do we have any new info on thee VF-31 or SV-262, that warrants discussion?

Well, my answer to your question would depend largely upon what you consider to be "new" information... have you been following our progress over in the Macross Delta Mecha and Technology thread?

Going back a couple posts (and over half a year), we can now answer with some certainty the questions that were being asked when Macross Delta was just starting to air courtesy of official specs published with model kits and so on.  I'll hit the big talking points, and if anything jumps out at you or any questions occur to you, go ahead and shout 'em out as the mood strikes you:

 

Where do the VF-31 and Sv-262 stand in comparison to other 5th Generation VFs?

As we now know from the official specs published with the model kits and toys (thank you Tomytec), the new 5th Generation VFs presented in the Macross Delta series don't represent a dramatic improvement in overall performance vs. the previously featured 5th Generation VFs which appeared in Macross Frontier.

Easily the biggest factor skewing early impressions of Macross Delta's tech level is that it wasn't made explicit or clear in the series that those VF-31 Siegfrieds being flown by Delta Flight of the Xaos Ragna branch's 3rd Fighter Wing are all ace customs and not representative of actual VF-31 performance.  This, of course, led to an inflated impression of the Sv-262's capabilities as well, since the natural assumption was that a VF-31 was the new gold standard for 5th Generation VFs by dint of having the highest number.  As it happens, the "stock" VF-31 Kairos, which the Brisingr Alliance NUNS is expected to start adopting circa 2069, offers very little in terms of improvement over the VF-25.  In a lot of ways you could argue the VF-31 is a bunch of VF-25 hardware packed into a different-shaped airframe.

Compared to the Low Rate Initial Production (Block 1?) VF-25/MF25 Messiah fielded by the Macross Frontier emigrant fleet:

• The VF-31 is a little longer (19.31m vs 18.72m) but has a shorter wingspan (13.7m vs 15.5m) and a smaller vertical profile (3.85m vs 4.03m)
• The VF-31's listed empty mass is 200kg lighter than the VF-25's (8,250kg vs 8,450kg), but that's without its ordinance container so that basically means it's missing a big chunk of its airframe.
• The empty thrust-to-weight ratio of the VF-31A is very slightly higher than the VF-25's (40.664 vs 39.098).  (This is also misleading, for the reasons stated above.)
• The VF-31 is using a slightly improved variant of the VF-25's FF-3001A engine, which provides an extra 25kN per engine (1,645kN vs 1,620kN).
• The VF-31 is slightly faster at 10km (Mach 5.5+ vs Mach 5.0+)
• They're using the same EX-Gear interface and the VF-31 is using a slightly improved variant of the initial VF-25 ISC system, which has 0.5G more buffer capacity (28.0G vs 27.5G).
• The airframe control AI is an updated version of the ARIEL II system used by the VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30 designated ARIEL II+.
• Roughly half the VF-31's weapons are the same type used by the VF-25.  They both use the ROV-127 beam machine gun on the monitor turret, and the CIMM-3 micro-missile launchers for the VF-25's Super Pack are integrated into the VF-31's legs.  The VF-31's offensive guns are a more advanced assortment, a pair of 27mm rapid-fire railguns and a heavy quantum beam gun pod instead of either 25mm beam machine guns or regular machine guns and a large-bore rotary cannon.  It's hard to say how their ordinance capacity measures up... since the VF-31 Kairos's ordinance container is something of a mystery due to an idiot ball mistake wherein the specs say that a Kairos doesn't have the equipment to support Walkure and the models have given the VF-31A the same container as the Siegfried.

All told, the Kairos seems to be more or less on the same level as the VF-25 Messiah, putting it well below the performance of the VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30.  Armament-wise, it's harder to say.  The VF-31 has a much greater bias towards close-quarters combat, with half (or less) the overall number of pylons the VF-25 has, but with a whopping 60 internal micro-missiles (18 in each leg, and 24 in the ordinance container if the Model Graphix coverage is on the level) plus the two internal bays in the back of the legs.  The VF-31's Super Pack is much less impressive, being a lot heavier and slower, and with what appears to be less weaponry.

The Xaos Valkyrie Works custom job, the VF-31 Siegfried, is a somewhat different animal being that it's been retrofitted to have forward-swept wings, a detuned version of the YF-30's engine, a slightly improved ISC, a custom airframe control AI (ARIEL III), and a less powerful railgun on the forearm/wing root mount, while also forfeiting almost half of the micro-missiles for a multidrone charger and the leg bays for multidrones themselves.

 

The Sv-262 Draken III is a much different animal.  It's noted as being a VF designed specifically to combat other VFs, from a design house that specialized in precisely that school of thought.  The highlights are:

• The Sv-262 is smaller than the typical 5th Generation VF, and only 17.54m long with a 13m wingspan (on the Hs type), but a higher vertical profile of 5.74m.
• The listed empty mass is unusually high for its size, at 9,810kg.  It's lighter than the VF-27 and YF-29, but it's heavier by far than VF-25s and YF-30s.
• Being the only known production VF with an ersatz fold wave system (albeit a "poor man's" one that is basically just an elaborate afterburner), the Sv-262's normal T/W ratio is actually almost identical to the VF-31A's at 40.641, but worse than the Xaos Custom Siegfrieds by almost 10%.  When overboosting with its fold quartz reheat system, the Sv-262Hs is slightly worse than the YF-30 at nominal (unboosted) maximum engine power with 52.834 vs. the YF-30's 53.085.
• Based on the designation, the Draken III is using a /FC2 version of the initial-type Stage II thermonuclear reaction engine (FF-2999).
• It's faster than the VF-31 and VF-31 Custom Siegfried at altitude, topping out at Mach 5.8+ at 10km to their Mach 5.5+.
• The Sv-262 is not using EX-Gear, but it does have a full virtual cockpit like the VF-27's (but without the need for implants) and an ISC based on the VF-25's that is significantly improved to a capacity of 30.8G.
• The Sv-262 is also using an ARIEL II+ airframe control AI.

Armaments on the Sv-262 are very similar to the MilSpec VF-31A Kairos's... at least in terms of guns.  It has a heavy quantum beam gun pod, a different variant of the same 27mm railguns used on the forearms of the VF-31A (twin-mounted on the right arm instead), and the command model (Sv-262Hs) has a pair of beam machine guns on the head.  The standout parts of its weapons are that it doesn't have any pylons and it doesn't have any internal weapons bays.  Its missiles are all tied up in conformal packs.  A number isn't given in the specs, but model kits have shown 29 micro-missiles in the pack, times four packs is 116 micro-missiles.  Instead of the VF-31's two knives, it has a big damn sword that was only used in the final episode for some reason.  The Lilldraken drones add a 30mm beam machine gun and four micro-missile launchers apiece.

One special trait that's noted for the Sv-262 is that its unusual transformation gives it an atypically small onboard fuel capacity, which limits its endurance in space combat. 

 

 

Where do the VF-31 and Sv-262 stand in comparison to each other?

Performance-wise, the Sv-262 seems to be on a mostly level footing against the military spec VF-31A/B Kairos intended to become the main VF for the Brisingr Alliance NUNS in the next two years.  They've got similar thrust-to-weight ratios, though the Draken III has the greater peak airspeed at low altitudes and the advantage of the rotating wing-engines formed by the Lilldrakens to boost its agility.  It's actually at at slight disadvantage against the VF-31 Siegfried in those departments due to the Siegfried's lighter weight and roughly comparable engines, but the fact that there were never more than five Siegfrieds at any one time negated that advantage pretty swiftly.

Armaments-wise, the Draken III has a pretty substantial advantage over the VF-31.  They both have the 27mm railguns and a heavy quantum beam cannon, but the Draken III has a significant edge in missiles... boasting almost twice the capacity of the VF-31A without its drones, and more than three times what the VF-31 Custom Siegfried brings to the party.  Having two drones for ad hoc wingmen is also an advantage well worth mentioning.  It's not mentioned in any source I have, but the Sv-262's gunpod appears on several occasions to have a similar "beam grenade" mode to the VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30 gun pods... something the VF-31 is never shown to have.

 

All in all, I would judge the Epsilon Foundation/Dian Cecht SV Works Sv-262 Draken III to be the superior aircraft when compared against the Surya Aerospace VF-31 Kairos, and arguably the superior aircraft when compared to the Xaos Valkyrie Works VF-31 Custom Siegfried.  Their performance seems to be in the hope (or expectation) that a high-quality aircraft made to exploit the superhuman abilities of Windermerean pilots would compensate for the significant numerical disadvantage Windermere's Aerial Knights would be up against when confronting the New UN Spacy.  Unfortunately, the aggressively short lifespan of the average Windermerean and the losses sustained fighting against rogue Zentradi and then the New UN Spacy in 2060 seem to have left them badly short of experienced combat pilots... so much so that, despite a colossal technological and performance advantage, we saw on several occasions that more experienced pilots in the old VF-171 were quite able to shoot down their less experienced enemy's newer and more potent aircraft.

 

EDIT: Wow, that got long FAST... those of you who made it through that in one sitting, treat yourselves to an ice cream or something.  Yikes.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Seto Kaiba

[Valkyrie Driver]

That was pretty thorough Seto. Thanks for the breakdown, and I must say it read like an intelligence brief or something out of a Jane's book, well done (I used to read my dad's old Jane's books when I was a kid). Might be worth copying and pasting to a section on M3.

I'm surprised to hear some of those things to be frank. I actually expected the VF-31A to be an improvement over the VF-25, but to hear that it's more or less the same, only with more internal armaments is a tad disappointing. Though, it is an improvement to keep the VF-25's performance while having a larger weapons payload.

I had the impression that the SV-262 was a better fighter than you made it seem. Though, I might need to go back and rewatch delta to see what you're talking about. 

Is the ARIEL II system an outgrowth of the original YF-19's control system? I seem to remember it having a System named ARIEL.

 

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

That was pretty thorough Seto. Thanks for the breakdown, and I must say it read like an intelligence brief or something out of a Jane's book, well done (I used to read my dad's old Jane's books when I was a kid). Might be worth copying and pasting to a section on M3.

Believe it or not, that was the short version... when we get around to covering the Macross Delta mecha for M3 the writeup I pass to Mr March is going to be a lot longer and packing an awful lot of footnotes.

(Fortunately, I've probably got a little while before we get to that point... when I last measured the pile of books waiting for translation it had reached three feet and was threatening to go higher still.)

 

 

4 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

I'm surprised to hear some of those things to be frank. I actually expected the VF-31A to be an improvement over the VF-25, but to hear that it's more or less the same, only with more internal armaments is a tad disappointing. Though, it is an improvement to keep the VF-25's performance while having a larger weapons payload.

I had the impression that the SV-262 was a better fighter than you made it seem. Though, I might need to go back and rewatch delta to see what you're talking about. 

Yeah, the way we were introduced to Delta Flight's custom VF-31s first and that it wasn't made immediately clear in the series that they were all one-of-a-kind "ace custom" jobs that were extensively modified from the original design made a lot of people think the VF-31 was a lot higher-spec than it actually is.

As far as the VF-31's failure to represent much of an improvement over the VF-25 despite being nearly a decade newer goes, I suspect that has a lot to do with its intended customer.  The Brisingr Alliance is a cluster of worlds way out in the galactic boonies, and they mention that it's economically underdeveloped for the age of the settlement(s).  That they're still flying their aging fleet of Block II (2055) VF-171s in 2067 won't be fielding the VF-31 in significant numbers until the 2070s says a lot about what the economy can spare for the defense budget when many of the New UN Government member worlds (including, ironically, former member Windermere IV) had moved to widespread adoption of 5th Generation VFs years before.  Surya's VF-31 feels like a minimum effort attempt to get a 5th Generation VF in the air as inexpensively as possible by using mostly off-the-shelf hardware to keep the prototype phase as short as possible.

 

 

4 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

Is the ARIEL II system an outgrowth of the original YF-19's control system? I seem to remember it having a System named ARIEL.

Yeah, the 5th Generation VFs based on the YF-24 Evolution have a second-generation version of the ARIEL airframe control AI developed for the YF-19 and YF-21.

[anime52k8]

21 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Surya's VF-31 feels like a minimum effort attempt to get a 5th Generation VF in the air as inexpensively as possible by using mostly off-the-shelf hardware to keep the prototype phase as short as possible.

 

That's... disappointing. (still haven't watched delta, I was hoping for something impressive out of at least the custom models.)

 

with that being said, you'd think it would be cheaper to just buy VF-25's

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, anime52k8 said:

That's... disappointing. (still haven't watched delta, I was hoping for something impressive out of at least the custom models.)

 

with that being said, you'd think it would be cheaper to just buy VF-25's

Kind of, yeah... but the VF-31 Custom "Siegfried" is, at least, a reasonably impressive aircraft that rivals or exceeds the performance of a YF-30 when enjoying the more modest overboost of its genuine fold wave system.  It only gets about half the performance bonus the Sv-262 does as the Draken III's reheat system is entirely focused on improving engine performance, but it gets up a little bit above the YF-30's unboosted main engine thrust (2,156kN vs 2,110kN).

The Siegfrieds are a bit weird in that the designers sacrificed a good portion of the VF-31's firepower and made the aircraft significantly more expensive through the addition of technologies intended to let them more efficiently support the ground operations of Walkure.  They lost the ordinance bays in the legs to multidrone racks, they lost the missile bays in the ordinance container to the multidrone charger, they dialed the firepower of the railguns down (presumably in the name of minimizing loss of life among potentially-recoverable Var sufferers), and included that fold wave system and inset fold quartz fold wave amplifiers to boost Walkure's power.  This is, however, the same technology that made the YF-29 so expensive the wealthy Macross Frontier emigrant fleet could only afford the one aircraft, so mass production is probably out of the question.

 

That said, I'm not sure it'd necessarily be cheaper to import VF-25s or build them locally under license.  The VF-31 has one major advantage that the creators of Macross Delta completely forgot about when they were giving each main character their own variant to maximize its toy sale potential.  

Namely... the ordinance container.  That innovation by SMS Uroboros headwiz Major Aisha Blanchett basically rendered specialized variants obsolete.  The VF-31 has a "plug-and-play" equipment package that lets a single model be quickly and efficiently equipped to cover a sizable array of operational roles and equipment types that were previously the domain of special mission-specific variants or FAST packs, all in the space of a minute or two instead of tens of minutes or hours.  A completely stock VF-31A can take the default container and be a multirole variable fighter.  It can equip a beam cannon container and fill the anti-ship attacker role.  You can drop a folding radome container on there which will let it operate as an ELINT/AWACS plane.  You can even slap a speaker container on there and use it as a Tactical Sound Unit VF without any further modification.  There was literally no reason to have five different variants of Siegfried.  This technology makes for ideal conditions to have just one variant, maybe two at the most, which can cover every major mission role the five main VF-25 variants did and plenty of others besides.

The VF-31 may not be the latest and greatest bleeding edge technology, but when you think about it... it must be incredibly cost-effective in normal military operations and lend truly monstrous versatility to forces in the field.

[Graham]

To be honest, I doubt there is too much of a performance loss between the Kairos's 27mm railguns and Seigfried's 25mm railguns.

The Kairos and Siegfried appear to use rail guns of identical barrel length and I would think likely the same or similar power output.

Whether there is any trade-off between calibre and rate of fire is unknown, i.e. for conventional single barreled cannon, higher calibre typically = lower RoF and smaller calibre typically = higher RoF.  Whether this applies to railguns is unknown.Typically in aerial combat a higher RoF gun will have increased hit probability due to the ability to put more ammunition in the air faster and thus having a greater chance to land a round or rounds on a fast moving opponent.

The Siegfried probably also gains extra ammunition capacity due to the slightly smaller size rounds.

Also, all else being equal, the 25mm railguns probably have increased muzzle velocity due to the rounds likely being lighter.

However, the lighter weight 25mm  ammunition may decelerate faster, resulting in a lower maximum effective range compared to heavier 27mm round, although this would also depend on the aerodynamic properties of the projectiles. Too many variables and too little information......urghh.

So, without knowing what type of rounds the rail guns fire, it is difficult to theorize too much about their combat effectiveness.

Certainly in the anime, the Siegfried's 25mm rail guns seem to be very effective.

It may be that the Kairos's 27mm rail guns offer a slighter greater punch, but at the expense of some ammunition capacity and perhaps with a slightly slower rate of fire. Whereas the Siegfried's 25mm railguns offer increased ammunition capacity and maybe a higher rate of fire and thus higher hit probability, but at the expense of slightly less punch.

I personally don't agree with the theory about the 25mm railguns being chosen for the Siegfried to minimize loss of life of VAR sufferers. Getting hit with a 25mm rail gun is only going to mess up your day slightly less than getting hit with a 27mm railgun, unless the Siegfried's were using specialty non-lethal ammo (like the shock gunpods used by the VF-5000G in MD7), which they were clearly not shown to be using.

Personally, my theory is that when it was decided to design the Siegfried based on the Kairos, the Kairos was looked at and the conclusion was "Yeah these 27mm rail guns are nice and all, but as we are going to be operating as a small group, possibly with little support against a large number of VAR sufferer's who may possibly be in combat VFs/Destroids/Zentradi Mecha, perhaps a bit more ammunition would be better, in case we need to go to guns and perhaps with a bit faster rate of fire, to ensure rapid incapacitation of a target if/when things turn violent".

Basically, I think deciding to arm the Siegfried with the 25mm railgun was not necessarily about making it less combat effective/less-lethal, but about providing the better choice for support and protection of Walkure for when things did turn violent.

Just my two cents.

 

[Graham]

Looking at the micro-missile specs of the VF-31 FAST packs as published in the Bandai 1/72 kit.

Looks like some improvement in the model number and quantity of the micro-missile launchers compared with the VF-25's super packs.

• VF-31J's 2 x chest mounted CIWS pods = model HMM-7C (15 missiles listed per pod).
• VF-25F's 2 x chest mounted CIWS pods = model HMM-5A.
• VF-31J's micro-missile launchers = model CIMM-5A x 5 launchers per each dorsal main booster.
• VF-25F's micro-missile launchers = model CIMM-3A x 3 launchers per each dorsal main booster.

I really wish official specs were posted for number of micro-missiles carried for all FAST Packs. Personally, I do not treat anything published in the VFMF as official.

[kajnrig]

 

A copy-and-paste from the model kits section:

On 12/26/2016 at 10:53 PM, IXTL said:

http://hobby.dengeki.com/news/308675/

Two questions:

1 - The link lists a March release date. Are there any other sources to corroborate this?

2 - The link also states that the gunpod is a General Galaxy GBP-35A Beam Gunpod. Same as above, can anyone corroborate this?

Thanks.

 

It just seems odd for Windermere to contract with GG the way, say, China would contract with Lockheed Martin or so.

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, Graham said:

To be honest, I doubt there is too much of a performance loss between the Kairos's 27mm railguns and Seigfried's 25mm railguns.

The Kairos and Siegfried appear to use rail guns of identical barrel length and I would think likely the same or similar power output.

Whether there is any trade-off between calibre and rate of fire is unknown, i.e. for conventional single barreled cannon, higher calibre typically = lower RoF and smaller calibre typically = higher RoF.  Whether this applies to railguns is unknown.Typically in aerial combat a higher RoF gun will have increased hit probability due to the ability to put more ammunition in the air faster and thus having a greater chance to land a round or rounds on a fast moving opponent.

[...]

I personally don't agree with the theory about the 25mm railguns being chosen for the Siegfried to minimize loss of life of VAR sufferers. Getting hit with a 25mm rail gun is only going to mess up your day slightly less than getting hit with a 27mm railgun, unless the Siegfried's were using specialty non-lethal ammo (like the shock gunpods used by the VF-5000G in MD7), which they were clearly not shown to be using.

Personally, my theory is that when it was decided to design the Siegfried based on the Kairos, the Kairos was looked at and the conclusion was "Yeah these 27mm rail guns are nice and all, but as we are going to be operating as a small group, possibly with little support against a large number of VAR sufferer's who may possibly be in combat VFs/Destroids/Zentradi Mecha, perhaps a bit more ammunition would be better, in case we need to go to guns and perhaps with a bit faster rate of fire, to ensure rapid incapacitation of a target if/when things turn violent".

Basically, I think deciding to arm the Siegfried with the 25mm railgun was not necessarily about making it less combat effective/less-lethal, but about providing the better choice for support and protection of Walkure for when things did turn violent.

All told, it's pretty clear the railguns on the VF-31 are not using an armature to guide rounds down the barrel... which means the only limit to the gun's rate of fire is the speed of the feed mechanism putting the ammo in the barrel while continuous voltage is applied to the rails.  To drop its caliber from 27mm to 25mm wouldn't result in much of a gain in terms of ammunition capacity as the difference in projectile size is minimal to say the least, and the acceleration provided by the gun is a function of barrel length, voltage, and the electrical resistance of the projectile more than it is the projectile's inertial mass.

The reason I said it was probably an attempt to make the guns less lethal is because that's the only sane explanation I can think of, given what we know of how railguns work, for stepping the caliber down.  Kinetic energy is still 0.5mv^2, so if you have a smaller and lighter round coming downrange at the same speed you're going to have less energy for the projectile to impart to the target... and restraint in the amount of energy transferred to the target is the key to reducing the lethality of a weapon.  We know that, with the exception of Messer, Delta Flight didn't kill the Var sufferers whenever possible, and with a questionable tactical ethos like that it makes sense they would go in for a less powerful round for the sake of reducing the damage dealt to enemy mecha in the hopes of increasing the pilot's chance of survival and successful recovery.  The mission of Delta Flight was to suppress Var outbreaks, not exterminate the afflicted.

 

 

5 hours ago, Graham said:

Looking at the micro-missile specs of the VF-31 FAST packs as published in the Bandai 1/72 kit.

Looks like some improvement in the model number and quantity of the micro-missile launchers compared with the VF-25's super packs.

• VF-31J's 2 x chest mounted CIWS pods = model HMM-7C (15 missiles listed per pod).
• VF-25F's 2 x chest mounted CIWS pods = model HMM-5A.
• VF-31J's micro-missile launchers = model CIMM-5A x 5 launchers per each dorsal main booster.
• VF-25F's micro-missile launchers = model CIMM-3A x 3 launchers per each dorsal main booster.

I really wish official specs were posted for number of micro-missiles carried for all FAST Packs. Personally, I do not treat anything published in the VFMF as official.

Model numbers have gone up, but that doesn't mean capacity has too.

If the numbers you cited are correct (will check the Model Guide later), that would mean the VF-31's CIWS launcher pods carry eight fewer missiles than the VF-25's, which are said to carry 23.

Also, remember that more launchers doesn't necessarily mean more missiles when it comes to FAST packs.  Just look at the VF-11B and -C.  The packs are significantly smaller on the VF-31, so it seems safe to assume they probably carry fewer missiles.

Newer is not automatically better... which is pretty much the moral of the whole VF-31 series.

 

 

4 hours ago, kajnrig said:

A copy-and-paste from the model kits section:

Two questions:

1 - The link lists a March release date. Are there any other sources to corroborate this?

2 - The link also states that the gunpod is a General Galaxy GBP-35A Beam Gunpod. Same as above, can anyone corroborate this?

Thanks.

 

It just seems odd for Windermere to contract with GG the way, say, China would contract with Lockheed Martin or so.

Yes, the Draken III's gunpod is a General Galaxy-built GBP-35A.

In all likelihood, it probably wasn't Windermere who contracted with General Galaxy though.

The Sv-262 Draken III was developed by the Dian Cecht corporation's SV Works... formerly known as the General Galaxy SV Works.  Dian Cecht is a subsidiary of the Epsilon Foundation, and purchased the SV Works from General Galaxy at some point after the development of the Sv-154 Svard that Windermere was using in the 2050s.  The contract for a Draken III's beam gunpod was probably a completely above-board contract between Dian Cecht and General Galaxy.

For most of the series, Windermere IV's government was very much in bed with the Epsilon Foundation... despite their hostility to humanity, the Windermerean economy is still predominantly agricultural and painfully underdeveloped.  They needed technical assistance and weapons from the Epsilon Foundation and its subsidiaries to be able to wage their war in the first place (and repair the Sigur Valens), and since they'd already had a business relationship with the SV Works...

[Valkyrie Driver]

In regards to the Smaller Caliber railguns, it might be a bit simpler explanation. Here's my reasoning:

1) A smaller round requires less energy to accelerate through a rail gun.

2) The Square-Cube law dictates that mass increases faster than surface area. Meaning that while the difference in size is negligible, the difference in mass is not (example, the 7.62x39mm round has superior ballistic performance to the 5.56x45mm, with similar powder charges, the 5.56mm bullet is a 62gr where the 7.62mm is around 122gr, and while the 7.62 is slower, it delivers 252 more ft-lbs of energy, just as an example).

3)With less weight in ammo, the feed mechanism doesn't need to be as substantial. Thus granting further weight savings, and decreasing the size of the overall mechanism.

4) The above 3 points all lead to a savings in weight and energy draw. Which leads me to my final point.

5) The weight and energy savings, as well as the decrease in physical size of the weapon, may have been necessary for the additional equipment required to support Walkure. The 25mm railguns are proven to still be a potent weapon, but the additional equipment may have dictated a decrease in weapon size, or a loss of capability in supporting walkure. Given that Walkure was considered invaluable, they may have felt that a decrease in firepower was warranted to allow the extensive modifications to the air frame. 

6) It's also possible, that the engines necessitated the decreased size of the weapon, rather than the tactical sound unit support equipment.

 

Any way you slice it, something in the Siegfried's design demanded a smaller gun. Now, granted we know that most variable fighters don't suffer from a lack of available power, but a plane that is dedicated to supporting a power intensive group like walkure, might need to have all the extra power it can get.

That's just my thoughts on the matter, and it makes about as much sense as any theory...

[kajnrig]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

The reason I said it was probably an attempt to make the guns less lethal is because that's the only sane explanation I can think of, given what we know of how railguns work, for stepping the caliber down.

I like to think it's all they had available, being in the boondocks of space and all.

Engineer A: "We've got three weeks until these birds are due. When are those cannons coming in!?"

Engineer B: "There's been some sort of setback. We won't get them, but we have these ones over here!"

Engineer A: "Okay, fine. Put them in, we'll make it work! Where's the duct tape?"

---

Thanks for the info about the guns. That was exactly the explanation I was looking for.

[Seto Kaiba]

7 hours ago, Valkyrie Driver said:

In regards to the Smaller Caliber railguns, it might be a bit simpler explanation. Here's my reasoning:

[...]

Any way you slice it, something in the Siegfried's design demanded a smaller gun. Now, granted we know that most variable fighters don't suffer from a lack of available power, but a plane that is dedicated to supporting a power intensive group like walkure, might need to have all the extra power it can get.

That's just my thoughts on the matter, and it makes about as much sense as any theory...

It's a well thought-out theory, but if there's one thing we can be certain of with respect to the Siegfried it's that it isn't short of power despite the extra burdens of Walkure's support equipment.

After all, it doesn't just have two Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines... it has a fold wave system supplying it with energy directly from super dimension space like the YF-29 did.  That was enough energy to let the YF-29 run its energy conversion armor at full power even while in fighter mode and devote 100% engine output to thrust production.  Even without the fold wave system a VF-31 has enough excess generator output to run a heavy quantum beam gunpod, and that's a notoriously power-hungry system.  With a fold wave system under the hood and the engines still detuned by 12.5% they ought to have enough generator surplus to run everything and then some.

 

 

4 hours ago, kajnrig said:

I like to think it's all they had available, being in the boondocks of space and all.

Engineer A: "We've got three weeks until these birds are due. When are those cannons coming in!?"

Engineer B: "There's been some sort of setback. We won't get them, but we have these ones over here!"

Engineer A: "Okay, fine. Put them in, we'll make it work! Where's the duct tape?"

Nah, if it was a question of using what was to hand, they'd have kept the LM-27 railguns that were original equipment on the VF-31s they were customizing.  That way they'd have been using the same weapons and ammunition as the VF-31s flown by the other three flights stationed on the Macross Elysion.

[Graham]

10 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

Model numbers have gone up, but that doesn't mean capacity has too.

If the numbers you cited are correct (will check the Model Guide later), that would mean the VF-31's CIWS launcher pods carry eight fewer missiles than the VF-25's, which are said to carry 23.

Also, remember that more launchers doesn't necessarily mean more missiles when it comes to FAST packs.  Just look at the VF-11B and -C.  The packs are significantly smaller on the VF-31, so it seems safe to assume they probably carry fewer missiles.

Newer is not automatically better... which is pretty much the moral of the whole VF-31 series.

 

Can I ask where are you getting the figure of 23 missiles for the VF-25's CIWS pods from, as I don't recall any official numbers published. 

Just out of interest, I compared the CIWS pods on the VF-25 toys and model kits and we get different figures:

• Bandai 1/60 V.1 VF-25 Super Packs = 20 micro-missiles per CIWS pod.
• Bandai 1/60 VF-25 Renewal Super Packs = 16 micro-missiles per CIWS pod.
• Bandai 1/72 VF-25 model kit Super Packs = 18 micro-missiles per CIWS pod.

While I realize that the quantity of missiles shown on the toys and models can't necessarily be considered canon, it's interesting to see how Bandai handled the issue across multiple product lines and note they were not at all consistent in the quantity.

Interestingly, photos of the upcoming Bandai 1/60 VF-31J CIWS pods do show them to have the correctly published quantity of 15 micro-missiles per chest-mounted CIWS pod.

Will have to look through all the various Macross Frontier art books later and see if there was ever a clear pic shown of the CIWS pod open showing the exact number of missiles.

Personally, I discount any figures published in Master Files.

Regarding the VF-31J's CIMM-5A launchers on the main boosters, it will be interesting to do a side-by-side size comparison of  the VF-31J's and VF-25F's Super Packs later, as I personally don't think the VF-31J's packs are actually that much smaller.

[Graham]

On 1/2/2017 at 4:56 PM, Seto Kaiba said:

Armaments on the Sv-262 are very similar to the MilSpec VF-31A Kairos's... at least in terms of guns.  It has a heavy quantum beam gun pod, a different variant of the same 27mm railguns used on the forearms of the VF-31A (twin-mounted on the right arm instead),

I'd say given how short the barrels are on the SV-262's LM-27C forearm mounted 27mm railguns, the muzzle velocity is likely to be substantially lower than the Kairos's 27mm LM-27S railguns. 

As a technical nitpick, from the appearance of both the VF-31's and Sv-262's forearm guns, they are technically more likely to be coilguns than railguns as both use cylindrical shaped barrels, but anyway the creators and all published material have chosen to stick with the cooler sounding and more commonly known term "railgun", so I will too.

But even if the Kairos's railguns have the edge over those on the SV-262, I'd say from what we see in the anime, based on size and performance the Sv-2d62's quantum beam gun pod appears to have the superior performance over the VF-31's beam gun.

 

 

[Valkyrie Driver]

3 hours ago, Seto Kaiba said:

It's a well thought-out theory, but if there's one thing we can be certain of with respect to the Siegfried it's that it isn't short of power despite the extra burdens of Walkure's support equipment.

After all, it doesn't just have two Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines... it has a fold wave system supplying it with energy directly from super dimension space like the YF-29 did.  That was enough energy to let the YF-29 run its energy conversion armor at full power even while in fighter mode and devote 100% engine output to thrust production.  Even without the fold wave system a VF-31 has enough excess generator output to run a heavy quantum beam gunpod, and that's a notoriously power-hungry system.  With a fold wave system under the hood and the engines still detuned by 12.5% they ought to have enough generator surplus to run everything and then some.

I may have been off on the power conservation end, but, the rest of the theory still stands I suppose. It might be a siple matter of the walkure support equipment and the different engines combined, that resulted in a need to conserve space. I mean the air frame is only so big, so when you start making modifications, something's got to give. Maybe in an effort to preserve as much missile armament as possible, they needed to sacrifice some space used by the larger railguns, in order to get everything else in. 

Unless we have physical specs on the new engines (we can assume that they fit in the leg, but with how much modification I don't know). It's entirely possible that the new engines needed some additional bracing, that necessitated the smaller guns.

I do think that there was some design consideration, or rather redesign consideration, that necessitated the swap to a smaller gun. It may not have been power consumption, though that certainly will be an unintended side effect, but it may have been required by physical constraints. Perhaps, the mechanism itself is of a different design that lent itself to the application more readily. We can't even be certain that the damage potential is tremendously different. Perhaps the 25mm gun was more suited to anti-mecha use, due to increased armor penetration (after all, the Var did seem to take an alarming number of NUNS personnel...).

It's all just speculation though so...