AVF Upgrade Candidates

[GuardianGrey]

My opinion, the HESA unit witn the same name, a unit produced inspite of trade restrictions. The real unit is believed to be engineered off the Northop F-5, look & perform like a varient of the YF-17, and have the weapon capabilities comparable to the F/A-18F Super Hornet.

The frontier wolrds & emmigartion fleets that wanted a relaxation of Unity Goverment involvement may very well be the ones that the trade restrictions on arms are enforced fully on. With so many Shensei Industry engineered options/varients for the 11-series, it is improbable to immagine that some group NOT trying to reverse-engineer & produce their own AVF-grade varient(s).

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Project Nocturnum (ca 2045+MC, citing Seto Kaiba)

Originally, I pasted on the idea of the Vampire-series getting an AVF upgrade, mostly due to me not knowing much about them and assuming that there were technical limitiaons.

Then after reading the entry for the Fz-109A Elgerzorene, I realize even though it is an EVA (Enemy Variable Aircraft) unit, it had the same basic pseudo-AVF qualities the VF-17 Nightmare-series has, and the original craft (VF-14) did not. Other than the lacking of a PPB &/or an Advanced Active Stealth systems (which may require a different turbine set for sufficient output for).

Although, on the current bent of addidtional systems (Super/FAST pack & parts), I can not say I see were one could bolt on anything without interfering with transformation somewhere with this design.

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Project Epiales (ca 2055+MC, citing number of comments)

The Nightmare-series is good, though I feel the original VF-171 (Block II) series got "Nerf:ed.

The airframe of the two are simular; though the comaposion of the two is on par with the compariong of the Have Blue & F/B-117 or the Northtop YF-17 to the Boeing F/A-18E. To the point, they are not the same aircraft other than mecanical operations and passing simularities.

The elongated canapy, wideer wings, addition of the PPBS & third-gen active stealth were improvements for the better.

Even with the argument for the reduced thrust output for more electrical power, there were other turbines that could have done so without sacraficing the speed perfomance (citing the later use of the detuned FF-2550F engines in the VF-117 Block III/IIIF & VF-117EX).

The removal of the fixed medium-bore laser beam guns I feel was also a weaking of the crafts standard confiugation combat performance though can see with the AAS-171 EX Armored pack in fighter mode the port area for forward firing would be blocked.

With watching the YouTube TransGuide for the VF-17 & VF-171, and can not see were the arm beam cannons would have interfered with the transformation mechanics (in fact the poster placed the VF-17 into GERWALK mode with hands out like the VF-171)..

On the point of Armored/FAST/Super parts; though giving additional armored protection & thrusters, the AAS-171 EX is useless. The Super parts for the VF-17 do that and bring more ordance.

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Project Sword (ca 2050+MC)

Going from unnecessary "Nerf"ing to somthing that needed some refinement, the VF-19 seems to run the gambit of modifications for that.

The first was the Engines that did not overheat, and swapping out the FF-2500E for any other engine used in the series seems to have solved that issue.

Then there were frame and flight control modifications.

Some of these mokey models were ment to address the issues of control, others with changes to the FCS were ment to be within the trade limited that were imposed.

Even my own write-up for the VF-19FX series had tried to adress this issue, including the EX-Gear addition used in the EF model & its varients.

I will have to agree, that other than conformal parts anything else looks dorky on the 19-series.

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Project Karyu (ca 2036+MC)

Now, onto the unit that has the first major thermonuclear turbine cooling issue.

I honestly do not believe that either the YF-21/VF-22 series, or the E varient of the 9 series, coolent issues lay with the design of the VF crafts themselves.

Much like the Schwalbe/Sturmvogel that the 22 series is named after, it is in the engines design/consturction that the fault most likely can be laid at.

If it was not, why would the B & C models of the FF-2450 series have the same basic issue in two different airframe designs?

The Junkers Jumo 004 produced durring WW2 had a heat disapation issue (due to inferior alloys used in construction) that hammered the ME 262's performance and did not aid in the development of the Horten H.IX.

Simular overheat/straining of the turbines were reported with the Tumansky R-15B-300 that was used in the MiG-25 (two of the crafts speed records resulted in slagging the engine).

Other than the Speaker booster pods I seen somwere, there is not really that much posted on the VF-22 Super parts.

Other than the fact that I believe the Schwalbe Zwei/Sturmvogel II that aer the only VF design that can fully transform and keep their fold booster attached.

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Project Hagewashi (ca 2010+MC)

Yes, the SV-52y Oryol is only in the Unlimited-class of the Vanquish races, though serval things could be improved on if it was going to be made a proudtion model. And these would have to deal with the errors in the description.

On the FF-2010 originally used for the VF-17D, that is plausable. They trailed both the FF-2010 & FF-2100X to be an upgrade from the FF-2009E used in the 17A, then decided to used the 2100X turbine. Which is a puzzle; for the FF-2009E & FF-2100X have almost the same performance. while the FF-2010 has slightly more power.

Another uknown is the mass of the SV-52y.

If we use the mass of the SV-51 (17.8 metric tons) & the reported maximum thrust output of the FF-2010 (588 KN x2), the thrust-to-weight ratio is only 6.7 (Mach 8+ at 30,000+).

With the VF-14/Fz-109A, it seems that the magic t/w ratio in Macross seems to be 8.4 (Mach 12.6+) to be the minimuim to orbit, and for the reported Mach 21+ should require a rating of about 10.75. To acheve that, the frame & systems would have been modified & lost over 35% of its weight (no small feat).

Was this weight saving achieved by the stripping out of the targeting radar, FCS, weapon systems & active stealth? Those systems would need to be reintroduced for a active-combat version.

With only a dozen combat-rated SV-52 units (converted from the SV-51) to get data from, and the engineering to bring the stress tolerances up to AVF standards might be a pain, it might not be worth it. Although it would be a signature craft if it was produced that would be talked about, if known.

On Addtional Equipment, the original boosters make me wonder if the boosters could be thermonuclear turbines to power additional systems?
For a SV-52 with said boosters & a Howard/LAI HPB-01A Heavy Quantum Beam gun pod -OR- GU-XS-06 Long-Range High-Piercing-Round Gun Pod would be an intimidating sight.

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Project Nova Consilia

There are alot of non-cannon fan art out there, both upgrades and new designs.

On the latter, I found a site that had what the Artist would call the VF-32 & VF-36 (site does not like direct linking to images)

[Seto Kaiba]

My opinion, the VF-19EF/A with second (& rejected atmosperic) Strike Pack booster would make it look more like the YF-29, though which would have more firepower to bring to bare?

Smart money says the YF-29... the "Strike Pack" cannons are, depending on whether you believe canon spec or Master File, either particle beam guns or laser cannons (respectively). The guns on the VF-25's Tornado Pack and YF-29 are dimension weapons... which are a megadeath nastier (esp. when they're MDE beam weapons).

If anything, the arms restrictions would promote emigration fleets & frontier worlds to develope there own variants of available designs, if not re-engineer some from the ground up.

That's exactly what they did... the restrictions were imposed around the time the VF-19 and VF-22 entered production in many of those emigrant fleets, so they developed their own variants to meet their specific needs and cope with the legally-imposed power restrictions. That's how we got the VF-19EF, VF-19EF/A, VF-19C/MG21, VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30.

The VF-19's are obviously local attempts to make lemonade with the stripped down VF-19 lemons they'd been given, and a few fleets and planets developed their own specific riffs on the YF-24 Evolution to meet their particular needs as well. The AVF genie was already out of the bottle, though, esp. after the VF-171's introduction in the late 2040's, so there probably wasn't much in the way of incentive to attempt upgrades to older craft... especially considering the amount of reengineering required to make it work, and the profound instabilities it tended to produce.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Seeing an SV-51 re-engineered and constructed to AVF Specs with a super-dimension based weapon for a gun pod, and increased payload, would be really cool. Especially if such a craft were created specifically as a multi-mission attacker (Air Interdiction, Close Air Support, Low altitude bombing, Anti-shipping). Given the size of the SV-51 I think the wing is too small. The aspect ratio looks good, but I think If we were going to upgrade it, we would want to increase the wing area. Even as it was, based on the toy I think the Wing was under utilized in terms of munitions carriage.

I don't have much info on the Monkey model variants, and their engine performance, and how they relate to the original prototype. It seems to me that the Monkey Models are superior in performance to the 19A/B/C/D's, and are more controllable. I have to admit the idea of refusing to equip your expeditionary forces with the best equipment available seems stupid to me. Given that the colonization plan was to ensure the survival of the species, why wouldn't you give them the best chance of accomplishing that mission?

Given that the VF-171 as become the main line fighter, a more controllable ship with many of the advancements from project supernova, refined into a cheap mass produced fighter, I think that it's unlikely that aside from some one offs or a completely different setting we'll see older designs get revisited.

We might see older concepts get recycled, into newer designs.

Here's my revised listing of Variable fighter generations:

Generation 1: VF-0, SV-51, VF-1

Generation 2: VF-4, VF-3000, VF-5000

Generation 3: VF-9, VF-11, VF-14, VF-16

Generation 4: VF-17, YF-19, VF-19, YF-21, VF-22, VF-171

Generation 5: YF-24, YF-25, VF-25, VF-27

Generation 6: YF-29, YF-30

That should be pretty accurate, grouped by specification requirements and technology base.

[Mr March]

Seeing the variable fighters grouped into generations, I wonder if the transformation systems could be grouped into generations as well. Each unique transformation couldn't be a generation on it's own, but I wonder what those transformation generations would look like if only we had more trivia with which to distinguish them. It's a pity that the statistics for transformation times did not continue beyond the VF-1 Valkyrie. It would be a really great way to distinguish one VF over another. And perhaps not all the transformation systems would be faster than previous generation systems. Some designs could sacrifice transformation speed for bigger engines or less weight in the airframe or a more robust Battroid/GERWALK configuration.

Then going back to the topic, could an old transformation system be upgraded for performance beyond the original specifications. Or would that be the same problem that all AVF upgrades to existing airframes would face?

Anyway, just got my imagination going there

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't have much info on the Monkey model variants, and their engine performance, and how they relate to the original prototype. It seems to me that the Monkey Models are superior in performance to the 19A/B/C/D's, and are more controllable.

Comparing the overall performance of the VF-19's main variants against the "monkey models" built for export is rather difficult... as much of the reduction in performance seems to have been in areas other than raw engine performance.

Take, for example, the earliest of the monkey model variants... the VF-19P. Its engine output is marginally lower than the VF-19's 1st mass production type, but the real reduction in performance is said to be the result of limiters put into the avionics, the control software, and the weapons. The VF-19EF compares favorably to the VF-19A/C in engine power, but it's not as good as the other 2nd mass production variants and there are those naggingly non-specific limiters built into a lot of its systems.

The only one which is explicitly said to compare favorably to the production model is the one-off VF-19EF/A "Isamu Custom", and that's more in terms of maneuverability than engine output (and only then because it was designed and built by Shinsei Industry's design team instead of by a fleet's arsenal, with one specific batspit insane pilot in mind).

I have to admit the idea of refusing to equip your expeditionary forces with the best equipment available seems stupid to me. Given that the colonization plan was to ensure the survival of the species, why wouldn't you give them the best chance of accomplishing that mission?

It's not like they were doing it for yuks... one of the primary sources of trouble for the UN Forces in the 2030's and later was having advanced weaponry from the emigrant fleets and planets ending up in the hands of terrorists and other anti-government forces, to say nothing of the occasional civil war.

The government decided to restrict arms exports to the emigrant fleets and planets after a spate of particularly problematic fights with enemies wielding AVF-tier equipment, to ensure that if trouble starts the troubleshooters from the core UN Forces will have a technological and tactical leg-up on the potential hostiles. The weapons the emigrant fleets are getting are still quite equal to the task of defending the fleets from rogue Zentradi branch fleets and worse.

Generation 1: VF-0, SV-51, VF-1

Generation 2: VF-4, VF-3000, VF-5000

Generation 3: VF-9, VF-11, VF-14, VF-16

Generation 4: VF-17, YF-19, VF-19, YF-21, VF-22, VF-171

Generation 5: YF-24, YF-25, VF-25, VF-27

Generation 6: YF-29, YF-30

That should be pretty accurate, grouped by specification requirements and technology base.

All told, based on applied technologies, production timelines, and the charts in Chronicle, there look to have only been 5 generations as of 2059... (considering some of the terms they use, making the most recent generation the 5th is definitely intentional).

Generation 1 (Initial VF generation)

• VF-0 Phoenix
• SV-51
• VF-1 Valkyrie
• SV-52

Generation 1.5 (Late VF-1 blocks and SLEP variants)

• VF-1 Valkyrie Plus
• VF-1P/X Valkyrie

Generation 2 (Regime optimization, VF's for emigration)

• VF-4 Lightning III
• VF-5
• VF-3000
• VF-5000
• VF-9
• V-BR-2

Generation 3 (Emergence of specialist craft, VF-1's true successor)

• VF-11 Thunderbolt
• VF-14 Vampire
• VA-3 Invader
• VB-6 Konig Monster
• VF-17A Nightmare
• Variable Glaug?

Generation 3.5 (Gen 3 + some AVF tech)

• VF-16
• VF-17D/S/T Nightmare
• VF-11MAXL

Generation 4 (Advanced Variable Fighter)

• VF-19 Excalibur
• VF-22 Sturmvogel II
• VF-171 Nightmare Plus
• Feios Valkyrie?

Generation 4.5 (AVF + Gen5 Tech)

• VF-19EF Caliburn
• VF-19ACTIVE Nothung
• VF-171EX Nightmare Plus

Generation 5 (Evolution's children, fold quartz tech, "The Last Manned Fighter")

• YF-24 Evolution (VF-24?)
• VF-25 Messiah
• YF-26
• VF-27 Lucifer
• YF-29 Durandal
• YF-29B Percival
• YF-30 Chronos

Seeing the variable fighters grouped into generations, I wonder if the transformation systems could be grouped into generations as well. Each unique transformation couldn't be a generation on it's own, but I wonder what those transformation generations would look like if only we had more trivia with which to distinguish them.

Looking at it, I don't think we'd necessarily end up with the same number of generations as actual fighter designs... I could see maybe 3 generations, possibly organized around the final cockpit orientation. The first generation designs that have it smack in the middle of the torso (VF-0 & SV-51 right up thru the VF-11), ones where it ends up high in the airframe and/or on the back (VF-14, VF-17, VF-19, VF-22), and lastly ones where it ends up sandwiched in armor layers near the back of the torso, closer to the hips (YF-24 derivatives).

Then going back to the topic, could an old transformation system be upgraded for performance beyond the original specifications. Or would that be the same problem that all AVF upgrades to existing airframes would face?

Anyway, just got my imagination going there

Officially, the answer to your question is "Yes"... if the SV-52 Oryol is anything to go by.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[Valkyrie Driver]

Comparing the overall performance of the VF-19's main variants against the "monkey models" built for export is rather difficult... as much of the reduction in performance seems to have been in areas other than raw engine performance.

Take, for example, the earliest of the monkey model variants... the VF-19P. Its engine output is marginally lower than the VF-19's 1st mass production type, but the real reduction in performance is said to be the result of limiters put into the avionics, the control software, and the weapons. The VF-19EF compares favorably to the VF-19A/C in engine power, but it's not as good as the other 2nd mass production variants and there are those naggingly non-specific limiters built into a lot of its systems.

The only one which is explicitly said to compare favorably to the production model is the one-off VF-19EF/A "Isamu Custom", and that's more in terms of maneuverability than engine output (and only then because it was designed and built by Shinsei Industry's design team instead of by a fleet's arsenal, with one specific batspit insane pilot in mind).

Ok. So fair to say that the Avionics systems are adequate, but not as good. So targeting might be slower, rate of climb and rate of turn might be less, thrust output might be the same or better, but the acceleration might be worse. The flight control system might have some smoothing built into it, thus negating the original's responsiveness.

Are those the kinds of limits that would have been placed on the monkey models? Making them easier to fly, and easier to produce, but reducing effectiveness by flattening out the performance curve?

It's not like they were doing it for yuks... one of the primary sources of trouble for the UN Forces in the 2030's and later was having advanced weaponry from the emigrant fleets and planets ending up in the hands of terrorists and other anti-government forces, to say nothing of the occasional civil war.

The government decided to restrict arms exports to the emigrant fleets and planets after a spate of particularly problematic fights with enemies wielding AVF-tier equipment, to ensure that if trouble starts the troubleshooters from the core UN Forces will have a technological and tactical leg-up on the potential hostiles. The weapons the emigrant fleets are getting are still quite equal to the task of defending the fleets from rogue Zentradi branch fleets and worse.

Out of curiosity what sources are you citing for this, as this is new information to me, but that reasoning makes sense. I guess I was having a hard time with that, because I wasn't thinking in terms of colonialism.

All told, based on applied technologies, production timelines, and the charts in Chronicle, there look to have only been 5 generations as of 2059... (considering some of the terms they use, making the most recent generation the 5th is definitely intentional).

Generation 1 (Initial VF generation)

• VF-0 Phoenix
• SV-51
• VF-1 Valkyrie
• SV-52

Generation 1.5 (Late VF-1 blocks and SLEP variants)

• VF-1 Valkyrie Plus
• VF-1P/X Valkyrie

Generation 2 (Regime optimization, VF's for emigration)

• VF-4 Lightning III
• VF-5
• VF-3000
• VF-5000
• VF-9
• V-BR-2

Generation 3 (Emergence of specialist craft, VF-1's true successor)

• VF-11 Thunderbolt
• VF-14 Vampire
• VA-3 Invader
• VB-6 Konig Monster
• VF-17A Nightmare
• Variable Glaug?

Generation 3.5 (Gen 3 + some AVF tech)

• VF-16
• VF-17D/S/T Nightmare
• VF-11MAXL

Generation 4 (Advanced Variable Fighter)

• VF-19 Excalibur
• VF-22 Sturmvogel II
• VF-171 Nightmare Plus
• Feios Valkyrie?

Generation 4.5 (AVF + Gen5 Tech)

• VF-19EF Caliburn
• VF-19ACTIVE Nothung
• VF-171EX Nightmare Plus

Generation 5 (Evolution's children, fold quartz tech, "The Last Manned Fighter")

• YF-24 Evolution (VF-24?)
• VF-25 Messiah
• YF-26
• VF-27 Lucifer
• YF-29 Durandal
• YF-29B Percival
• YF-30 Chronos

That's a fair list, I wasn't grouping into .5 generations, because I wasn't going into specific models and derivatives. I also included a 6th generation, accounting for the Integral super-dimensional equipment as a distinct technology shift. The VF-25, for all it's advanced systems and sorcery, was still conventionally equipped, whereas the VF-27 was bordering on that shift, and the YF-29 and YF-30 had both jumped into the super-dimensional swimming pool. Still a good list, and I can't argue with it, as it's not too dissimilar to what I came up with.

[Sildani]

I think VF-24 is a fair designation, there's undoubtedly a few emigration fleets and planets who saw the mass released YF-24 design (shareValk?), said "Perfect!" and went directly into pre-production/mass production. Save time, save money by not reinventing the wheel, so to speak.

In fact, if Macross Delta takes place on another fleet other than Frontier, it may be the VF-24 that's the CF/mass use type of the show.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Sildani

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok. So fair to say that the Avionics systems are adequate, but not as good. So targeting might be slower, rate of climb and rate of turn might be less, thrust output might be the same or better, but the acceleration might be worse. The flight control system might have some smoothing built into it, thus negating the original's responsiveness.

Pretty much, yeah... though even the non-monkey model variants had some performance smoothing and stability fixes put in which were intended to make the VF-19 less like the unstable nightmare that put two test pilots in the ground and two more into intensive care.

The Macross Chronicle entry for the VF-19EF/A, which the novelization and apparently toy makers call the VF-19ADVANCE, says that the arms export restrictions make it particularly difficult to deploy the VF-19.

Out of curiosity what sources are you citing for this, as this is new information to me, but that reasoning makes sense. I guess I was having a hard time with that, because I wasn't thinking in terms of colonialism.

It's mentioned in a bunch of different sources, and in connection with a few different fighters too... there's some discussion of it in the Macross the Ride materials pertaining to the VF-19EF Caliburn, some more in the Macross Chronicle sheet for the VF-19EF/A, some in Great Mechanics.DX 9 related to the redections in the YF-24 spec that was sent to the fleets. There's also some stuff in Macross Chronicle's technology sheet 1P about the UN Forces being reluctant to export the VF-19 to the emigrant fleets as a result of its demonstrated ability to break through Earth's defenses circa 2040.

That's a fair list, I wasn't grouping into .5 generations, because I wasn't going into specific models and derivatives. I also included a 6th generation, accounting for the Integral super-dimensional equipment as a distinct technology shift. The VF-25, for all it's advanced systems and sorcery, was still conventionally equipped, whereas the VF-27 was bordering on that shift, and the YF-29 and YF-30 had both jumped into the super-dimensional swimming pool. Still a good list, and I can't argue with it, as it's not too dissimilar to what I came up with.

There's a couple high-profile planes where there's an excellent, excellent case for a .5 generation. The Valkyrie Plus, for instance, which was the later production blocks that incorporated engine, avionics, and sensor enhancements from the VF-4... or the VF-17, which started out a 3rd Gen plane, and then adopted the same engine tech as the 4th Gen planes.

The VF "family tree" leading to the YF-29 isn't super consistent, but they generally agree that's a YF-24 derivative, so it probably belongs to the same generation as the other YF-24 derivatives. Dimension weapons on VFs weren't a new feature on the VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30. It was just the first time they were deployed as gun pods rather than internal weapons. The VF-22's internal beam weapons were converging energy cannons as standard. Converging energy cannons were also an option for the gun port fixtures on the VF-19's wing glove.

I think VF-24 is a fair designation, there's undoubtedly a few emigration fleets and planets who saw the mass released YF-24 design (shareValk?), said "Perfect!" and went directly into pre-production/mass production. Save time, save money by not reinventing the wheel, so to speak.

Actually, I put it on there because, while the YF-24 is official and all that, the VF-24 is only mentioned in Master File so far... it's not unreasonable to assume it'd be a thing, but it's not definitely a thing yet.

[spanner]

I think VF-24 is a fair designation, there's undoubtedly a few emigration fleets and planets who saw the mass released YF-24 design (shareValk?), said "Perfect!" and went directly into pre-production/mass production. Save time, save money by not reinventing the wheel, so to speak.

In fact, if Macross Delta takes place on another fleet other than Frontier, it may be the VF-24 that's the CF/mass use type of the show.

yes it would be nice to finally see a YF/VF 24 Valkyrie if it does feature in Macross Delta! Can't see it happening though as I'd say they would probably want to introduce something new entirely and or expand on the current line of Valks already out.

And this thread is so awesome! so much interesting stuff to read!

[Valkyrie Driver]

yes it would be nice to finally see a YF/VF 24 Valkyrie if it does feature in Macross Delta! Can't see it happening though as I'd say they would probably want to introduce something new entirely and or expand on the current line of Valks already out.

And this thread is so awesome! so much interesting stuff to read!

We try. As for mechs in delta, I'm personally hoping for some VF-25 Cannon fodder and VF-19 hero mechs, as well as some classic destroid love. But if we want to hash out what mecha we want to see in delta and why, this would be the tread to do it in.

I think VF-24 is a fair designation, there's undoubtedly a few emigration fleets and planets who saw the mass released YF-24 design (shareValk?), said "Perfect!" and went directly into pre-production/mass production. Save time, save money by not reinventing the wheel, so to speak.

In fact, if Macross Delta takes place on another fleet other than Frontier, it may be the VF-24 that's the CF/mass use type of the show.

You're probably right, though there'd likely still be a T&E period, that's just procedure.

[GuardianGrey]

My opinion, the VF-19EF/A with second (& rejected atmosperic) Strike Pack booster would make it look more like the YF-29. though which would have more firepower to bring to bare?

Smart money says the YF-29... the "Strike Pack" cannons are, depending on whether you believe canon spec or Master File, either particle beam guns or laser cannons (respectively). The guns on the VF-25's Tornado Pack and YF-29 are dimension weapons... which are a megadeath nastier (esp. when they're MDE beam weapons).

It was mostly retorical, though I was also thinjing the LCF (Look Cool Factor) of an "Alpha strike," "Hail Marry" or "Death Blossom" attack (firing ALL weapons at once, not just the Itanto Circus with missles).

Although there is a 'flaw' with the NP-FAD-23 Srike booster, that being that it cannot indepent pivot. in Battroid mode the pods will be pointed vertically because of the wing mounting. Unlees they have 'Beam Bending' technology applied, they would be next to usless unless they were in Fighter/GERWALK mode.

_____________________

If anything, the arms restrictions would promote emigration fleets & frontier worlds to develope there own variants of available designs, if not re-engineer some from the ground up.

That's exactly what they did... the restrictions were imposed around the time the VF-19 and VF-22 entered production in many of those emigrant fleets, so they developed their own variants to meet their specific needs and cope with the legally-imposed power restrictions. That's how we got the VF-19EF, VF-19EF/A, VF-19C/MG21, VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30.

The VF-19's are obviously local attempts to make lemonade with the stripped down VF-19 lemons they'd been given, and a few fleets and planets developed their own specific riffs on the YF-24 Evolution to meet their particular needs as well. The AVF genie was already out of the bottle, though, esp. after the VF-171's introduction in the late 2040's, so there probably wasn't much in the way of incentive to attempt upgrades to older craft... especially considering the amount of reengineering required to make it work, and the profound instabilities it tended to produce.

I don't have much info on the Monkey model variants, and their engine performance, and how they relate to the original prototype. It seems to me that the Monkey Models are superior in performance to the 19A/B/C/D's, and are more controllable. I have to admit the idea of refusing to equip your expeditionary forces with the best equipment available seems stupid to me. Given that the colonization plan was to ensure the survival of the species, why wouldn't you give them the best chance of accomplishing that mission?

It's not like they were doing it for yuks... one of the primary sources of trouble for the UN Forces in the 2030's and later was having advanced weaponry from the emigrant fleets and planets ending up in the hands of terrorists and other anti-government forces, to say nothing of the occasional civil war.

The government decided to restrict arms exports to the emigrant fleets and planets after a spate of particularly problematic fights with enemies wielding AVF-tier equipment, to ensure that if trouble starts the troubleshooters from the core UN Forces will have a technological and tactical leg-up on the potential hostiles. The weapons the emigrant fleets are getting are still quite equal to the task of defending the fleets from rogue Zentradi branch fleets and worse.

Out of curiosity what sources are you citing for this, as this is new information to me, but that reasoning makes sense. I guess I was having a hard time with that, because I wasn't thinking in terms of colonialism.

It's mentioned in a bunch of different sources, and in connection with a few different fighters too... there's some discussion of it in the Macross the Ride materials pertaining to the VF-19EF Caliburn, some more in the Macross Chronicle sheet for the VF-19EF/A, some in Great Mechanics.DX 9 related to the redections in the YF-24 spec that was sent to the fleets. There's also some stuff in Macross Chronicle's technology sheet 1P about the UN Forces being reluctant to export the VF-19 to the emigrant fleets as a result of its demonstrated ability to break through Earth's defenses circa 2040.

This "arms restricitions" within "trade policies" sounds too much like "gun control" agenda/practices that are affecting the world today.

First is the limitation to everyone access to 'equipment' because of a few 'hostiles' can/have taken action (some may have happened as a 'false flag' to push an agenda).

The logic is that if one limits the avalability of the 'equipment,' the less likely the 'hostile actors' can get ahold of. Reality is that those that wish to do harm still will get ahold of what they need, and those locally may not be able to defend themeslves from (without the NUNS or an approved PMC contractor) because they are disarmed due to the restrictions/policies.

The next is that logical with the 'hostile actors' limited access to 'equipment,' that the powers that be (UN, NUNS or permited PMC) will have the technological/tactical advatage.

Nice in theory, though cases in reality show that this is horridly inacurate. The 'hostile actors' either have gotten ahold of simular equipment (SV-51 vs. VF-0) or use lower tech to take out higher (the downing of the F/B-117 before they were retired).

Then, the reasoning on the (limiteted) equipment given to local garrisons is more than enough to either deal with the threat themselves, or hold out until assistance can be rendered.

Probability more often than the "terrorist activities," the outer-most frontier worlds &/or emigration fleets come under attack by some force that the local garrison can not handle the initale wave & have to calll (if they can) for assistance (which is still a time/distance away). With said, lives most likely have been lost because they were not allowed access to 'the best.'

_____________________

ReVisiting Macross Information - Debate Version

Continuing Zentradi Theat

In the Macross continuum, many seem to believe that rogue/transient Zentradi fleets are only equiped with the same weapons and tatics that were involved in Space War I.

• This seems to hold true for the appearence in Macros 7: Encore, Episode 1 of the so-called "Fleet Of The Strongest Women." The sheer numbers would have many doubt that survival, let alone victory over, would not happen. If not for the events within the episode, it most likely would not have been favorable & the UN responce would be too late/little to make a difference for those undre fire & lost thier lives.
• Within the sphere of UN-controlled space; Zentradi seem to be able to improve, innovate and invent equipment for use. This is not to say that they can those outside 'human' infulance can not, nor that the equipment can not be altered by others. With the lack of intelligence on these possible units, to plan & deploy a effective defence stratigy is not likely.

AVF Development

Thte briefing of First Lieutenant Isamu Dyson at New Edwards Test Flight Center is rater telling;

"This project, called 'Supernova.' is to test and develope candidates for the next main transforming fighter to replace the VF Thunderbolt currently being used.

"In order to solve colonial planet disputes and in case of an emergancy dur to an alien attack, this new transforming fighter will make it possible to preform the hyperspace fold on its own.

"Not using a reactive weapon, which might cause a political problem, the new fighter will break through the enemy line and destroy only thier military headquarters or rescue hostages."

- Colonel Millard Johnson, Chief Planner for Project Supernova

Macross Plus OAV (English Dubbed version)

This statement, with how things later developed with policies/polotics, is disturbing.

The next mainline fighter in the Media (GNN) would be the new vanguard for humanity's protection able to get to the frontlines faster than any prior unit,

Reality is that it was being develpped to keep breakaway factions (self-soverent groups) in-line while allowing the military industrial complex more use/control of its actions within the goverment to be used as a first responce to.

For whom would colonial planets most likely have a dispute with? The Unity Goverment & the policies there of. How best to dampen a govermental movement than to eliminate the miliatry forces that may oppose keeping the status quo &/or the local goverment that allows/supports said change?

The performance of the two final candidates to insert themselves into 'hostile territory' behid the defencive kines and take out a military objective & rescue hostages was deemed possible. Though, the UN Military did not like that the Earth's defence grid was used as an impromt trial for, siting that if they wished for those units to do so to others that it could be done back to them.

The old saying of those that live by the blade, and the potental of this double edged sword actions were akready partially unsheathed (with VF-17 craft already delived/deployed). So to try to curb the potential 'harm.' the trade restrictions (like many gun control policies) ban aspects of the whole to try to dissuade desire for and limit the capabilities there of.

AIs & Ghost Fighters

No matter how much one may dislike the dehumanization of combat. drones are a part of the modern (& future) battlefield & tactics.

Now in the case of the X-9 project, I feel that ite was an overreaction to remove the AI from, as I commented in the Real World Technical References of Macross Variable Aircrafts thread.

In theory to hack a drone's controls (since no one known has been able), one needs to intercept/overpower the command signal to.

Even with the X-9, there would have been an encoded frequency to give it orders through, and Yang Neumann from his impromt workstation in the YF-19 did find the signal.

Noticing that it's code was Sharon Apple's 'emotional code-line', he figured that he could not wrestle the control from the Virtual-Idol (though it seems he left the connection open, which allowed the AI to attempt to infulance all in the YF-19).

With the fact that Sharon Apple reversed hacked into the YF-19's virual displays & audio, but did not go after the flight control systems shows a limitation.

That either the systems were totally insular of each other (for displays showing the readouts, this is unlikely), or the AI did not understand the coding to alter it (without the risk of cause 'harm' to its 'plan' for Isamu).

This 'lack of knowlegde' of flight controls, though vast information of securing wireless communications (to control all the systems needed for the concerts) would have the hack of the X-9's systems improbable, though the corruption & securing of the command frequency for said would be within the higher possiblilities, especially with the high likelihood that the codes for were in the UN headquarter's mainframe.

For the control of the SDF-1; the DECU6000 unit was wired directly into it, so pulling up the command prompts from within the system would be an easy feat.

On the X-9's end, if the frequency was the secured bandwith & last encoding, the AI within would have no issue with following the commands given.

Also, assuming for security reasons, that the encoding could be changed to prevent prior known codes to hack-controls & Sharon did so with her 'emotional code-line'.

Otherwise, the combat & flight control performance was well within the parameters of the unit, which seemed to scare the heck out of the UN Military high-brass that it could take on the best fighters they have and have a chance of winning.

The SMS version of the AIV-7S (QF-4000) in the Macross Frontier fleet (& assuming the AIV-9V of the Macross Galaxy fleet) seem to have fullt fuctioning AIs within them without the issues.

This could be used to argue that the X-9's AI systems were more stable that thought, though can not fully be disclosed due to the extrme legal limitations on the technologies.

It also has me wonder why someone may not have attempted to place an AI into a VF frame (unless they are afraid the would create a Starscream)

IVCS & ISC

The only real counter to the inhuman performance curves that a Ghost firghter can produce is through the physics warping technologies. though still 'primitive' in development stages (zero generation in the YF-24). With later generations, the potenial of either handling larger g-loads or able to compensate for a longer period of time show promise in. though there is also risks with (as already deminstrated).

Edited August 24, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Valkyrie Driver]

Guardian, I'm not trying to be a dick, but you really need to proofread your crap. If you're gonna throw out that much word vomit, please make it a bit less painful to read. Again I'm not trying to be a dick, but I'm not going to lie, all those spelling errors and that grammatical chunkiness, has kept me from reading all the way through some of your posts. I can understand if English is not your first language, but it takes only a few minutes to catch some of those errors.

As for the content of your last post, We've already hashed out that the AI's in the Ghost fighters used by Luca, are illegal and illicitly modified by LAI (and specific to the drones used by Luca). They are not considered representative of the Frontier's Ghost fleet.

As for your comment about drone use, I'm not going to be drawn into that debate, but suffice to say Macross seems to have gone with the notion that Drones are uniquely suited to certain missions, that fall in the categories of Dull, Dirty, and Dangerous. That is how we aught to deploy drones as force multipliers, not the basis of the force. That's all I'm going to say on that matter, If you want to debate drones take it to the Aircraft thread in the Anime/TV section.

Your comparison to gun control isn't quite apt. Gun Control is a domestic measure, and it's less about a misguided attempt to protect people than it is about fearing the object to be controlled. Gun control's scope is too small, and area of effect isn't large enough to make it an accurate comparison. Good attempt through. (Personally, my definition of gun control is putting two rounds through the same hole, consistently, but that's me...)

The most direct comparisons are actual anti-arms proliferation treaties. Like the START treaties and SALT I and SALT II treaties. Also some of the UN arms proliferation initiatives that are intended to curb proxy wars, by restricting the supply of arms from certain parties. Meaning that those treaties are supposed to make situations like Vietnam and the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan less likely, and to curb the spread of arms in those small tumultuous nations. Also to restrict secondary damage, from those weapons, such as having those weapons crop up in other warzones, like we saw in Central America in the 1980's, and then again in Afghanistan.

Overall though I think you might be onto something, hinting at some pretty dark commentary.

[Tochiro]

As for the content of your last post, We've already hashed out that the AI's in the Ghost fighters used by Luca, are illegal and illicitly modified by LAI ....

Well that's not correct. The restrictions on Ai development that were implemented in the aftermath of the Sharon Apple incident were (temporarily i think?) rescinded after initial contact with the Vajra was made. Not only are Luca's Ghosts legal, he used SMS simulators to train the AI, so the higher-ups knew all about them as well, presumably.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Well that's not correct. The restrictions on Ai development that were implemented in the aftermath of the Sharon Apple incident were (temporarily i think?) rescinded after initial contact with the Vajra was made. Not only are Luca's Ghosts legal, he used SMS simulators to train the AI, so the higher-ups knew all about them as well, presumably.

What source are you using for that? Just curious, as that's news to me.

[Tochiro]

The Macross Frontier audio dramas.

They sold fairly well back between the tv series and the movies, if the availability of 2nd hand copies these days is any indication.

While many were played or laughs, there's plenty of little nuggets in them that helped out to flesh out bits of back story and world building.

[Seto Kaiba]

Although there is a 'flaw' with the NP-FAD-23 Srike booster, that being that it cannot indepent pivot. in Battroid mode the pods will be pointed vertically because of the wing mounting.

Yes, and this particular shortcoming is acknowledged openly in the Master File materials.

Unlees they have 'Beam Bending' technology applied, they would be next to usless unless they were in Fighter/GERWALK mode.

While it's true that "bendy-beam" technology does exist in Macross, it's not available on a fighter scale.

Like the previous generations of Strike pack, the VF-25's Strike pack isn't really intended to be used against small targets like VF's and other mecha. It's intended to be used against enemy warships and other large targets, so it not being available with the VF in battroid mode is not really a big issue.

This "arms restricitions" within "trade policies" sounds too much like "gun control" agenda/practices that are affecting the world today.

Please leave your political views out of this discussion, it's very much against the rules.

First is the limitation to everyone access to 'equipment' because of a few 'hostiles' can/have taken action (some may have happened as a 'false flag' to push an agenda).

The logic is that if one limits the avalability of the 'equipment,' the less likely the 'hostile actors' can get ahold of. Reality is that those that wish to do harm still will get ahold of what they need, and those locally may not be able to defend themeslves from (without the NUNS or an approved PMC contractor) because they are disarmed due to the restrictions/policies.

The next is that logical with the 'hostile actors' limited access to 'equipment,' that the powers that be (UN, NUNS or permited PMC) will have the technological/tactical advatage.

Nice in theory, though cases in reality show that this is horridly inacurate. The 'hostile actors' either have gotten ahold of simular equipment (SV-51 vs. VF-0) or use lower tech to take out higher (the downing of the F/B-117 before they were retired).

Then, the reasoning on the (limiteted) equipment given to local garrisons is more than enough to either deal with the threat themselves, or hold out until assistance can be rendered.

Probability more often than the "terrorist activities," the outer-most frontier worlds &/or emigration fleets come under attack by some force that the local garrison can not handle the initale wave & have to calll (if they can) for assistance (which is still a time/distance away). With said, lives most likely have been lost because they were not allowed access to 'the best.'

You've gone off half-cocked due to not checking your facts again...

First and foremost, the arms export restrictions (which mirror those of the real world with respect to the US and its allies, or Russia and its allies) didn't come out of the blue because "a few hostile took action". They were introduced as the result of the following VERY worrying actions:

• The YF-19 and YF-21 prototypes, aircraft designed for decapitation strikes and able to be armed with a high-yield thermonuclear reaction or pair-annihilation reaction warhead, were able to independently break through the orbital defenses of Earth, the most secure planet in the UN Government.

• Internal strife on emigrant planets and between emigrant planets and the UN Government were becoming much more common. (Isamu's service record shows he fought in half a dozen such conflicts already.)

• An anti-government group staged a coup d'etat that culminated in them hijacking the flagship of the Earth defense fleet, and disaster was only averted by the intervention of another anti-government group and the UN Spacy special forces.

Second, the restriction of arms exports to the emigrant fleets and worlds, combined with changes in political policy, did ultimately reduce the frequency and severity of inter-colony conflicts and anti-government groups without hampering the ability of emigrant worlds and fleets to defend themselves. Buying a variable fighter isn't like buying a gun, it takes a lot of effort, resources, and no small amount of money to maintain a high-performance variable fighter. The civilian market variable craft were already limited in performance by design, and if it's only export monkey-models available outside the core military, that means even mecha that are acquired through illicit channels will be comparably detuned to the versions used by the military.

Third, you have a massive false parallel in your second point. The Anti-Unification Alliance had the ability to independently make their own military-level VF's because they had 1. stolen the latest VF research when UN Forces soldiers defected, so most of the legwork was done for them, and 2. they were effectively an unofficial national military supported by multiple nations (including an amount of support under-the-table from a superpower or two). The effective anti-government forces that appeared later were a mixture of former soldiers supported by defense industry megacorporations under the table and ones backed by a group of high-ranking officers inside the military itself. The rest of the "hostile actors" really couldn't fight the UN Forces on an equal footing.

Fourth, the (admittedly detuned) equipment being supplied to the New UN Forces garrisons in the emigrant fleets and so on is at, more or less, the discretion of the local government. However, the level of equipment used on average is more than sufficient for dealing with the primary threat to everyone's peace and wellbeing (rogue Zentradi forces). There's not that much actual distance between what the "monkey models" give the emigrant forces and what the core military is using anyway... and, in practice, being detuned thus may actually have made them more usable for their intended purpose of defending against the Zentradi by making those advanced weapons less hard on the pilot.

Continuing Zentradi Theat

In the Macross continuum, many seem to believe that rogue/transient Zentradi fleets are only equiped with the same weapons and tatics that were involved in Space War I.

• This seems to hold true for the appearence in Macros 7: Encore, Episode 1 of the so-called "Fleet Of The Strongest Women." The sheer numbers would have many doubt that survival, let alone victory over, would not happen. If not for the events within the episode, it most likely would not have been favorable & the UN responce would be too late/little to make a difference for those undre fire & lost thier lives.
• Within the sphere of UN-controlled space; Zentradi seem to be able to improve, innovate and invent equipment for use. This is not to say that they can those outside 'human' infulance can not, nor that the equipment can not be altered by others. With the lack of intelligence on these possible units, to plan & deploy a effective defence stratigy is not likely.

That the Zentradi Army largely uses the same space warfare tactics and mobile weapons they used 500,000 years ago during the Schism War and the war against the Supervision Army is broadly true.

Zentradi exposed to human culture and proper education do demonstrate that they're as intelligent as any human, though it does bear noting that we don't know the actual origins of the Variable Glaug, and the "Enemy Battle suit" from Macross Plus is actually equipment dating back to the Schism War 500,000 years ago. (From the description, it sounds like an attempt to make a budget Q-Rau for large-scale deployment to the Zentradi forces.) The Variable Glaug may have been (likely was) developed by a defense industry manufacturer or fleet arsenal covertly.

The next mainline fighter in the Media (GNN) would be the new vanguard for humanity's protection able to get to the frontlines faster than any prior unit,

Reality is that it was being develpped to keep breakaway factions (self-soverent groups) in-line while allowing the military industrial complex more use/control of its actions within the goverment to be used as a first responce to.

That's an awfully paranoid interpretation... considering the history leading up to that point, the Project Super Nova VF's being made specifically for decapitation strikes and hostage recovery would've been a godsend in an age where internal conflicts among worlds settled early on were on the rise. The ability to settle a civil war decisively and with the minimum possible loss of life sounds like an exceedingly humanitarian policy.

True to form, that's exactly how we see the VF-19's being used by the Special Forces... quick in, quick out, to bust up terrorists on sparsely populated worlds and prevent small conflicts from exploding into large civil wars after diplomacy has failed.

If this were the military industrial complex run amok, we'd be seeing the exact opposite... large occupation forces being deployed.

For whom would colonial planets most likely have a dispute with? The Unity Goverment & the policies there of. How best to dampen a govermental movement than to eliminate the miliatry forces that may oppose keeping the status quo &/or the local goverment that allows/supports said change?

Actually, from the descriptions, it sounds more like the conflicts alluded to in Isamu's service record were internal to, or between emigrant planets. There were anti-government groups, but they mostly fell into the "take hostages and smash sh*t up" category, which the VF-19 and VF-22 proved ideal to addressing without blowing up entire towns.

The old saying of those that live by the blade, and the potental of this double edged sword actions were akready partially unsheathed (with VF-17 craft already delived/deployed). So to try to curb the potential 'harm.' the trade restrictions (like many gun control policies) ban aspects of the whole to try to dissuade desire for and limit the capabilities there of.

That argument doesn't really hold water... the VF-17 Nightmare was almost entirely dependent on passive stealth, and was not at all suited to the kind of operations the VF-19 and VF-22 were. It would not, as delivered, have been even remotely capable of what the VF-19 and VF-22 were.

The SMS version of the AIV-7S (QF-4000) in the Macross Frontier fleet (& assuming the AIV-9V of the Macross Galaxy fleet) seem to have fullt fuctioning AIs within them without the issues.

The key difference between the Ghost X-9 and the successor units based off it (AIF-7S, AIF-9B/V) is hardware, not software.

The X-9 prototype used the illegal bio-neutral processing hardware to give it the ability to behave in a truly unpredictable fashion... identical to the final modification made to complete Sharon Apple. The AIF-9V and AIF-7S don't seem to have used that hardware, so even if they had identical software the performance wouldn't be the same.

It also has me wonder why someone may not have attempted to place an AI into a VF frame (unless they are afraid the would create a Starscream)

... they did. That's what the Neo Glaug is.

Overall though I think you might be onto something, hinting at some pretty dark commentary.

All things considered, I don't think there's anything to his speculation there... this is Macross we're talking about, not Metal Gear Solid. It's fundamentally an optimistic setting, being that the military stuff is mostly window-dressing for a love story.

Well that's not correct. The restrictions on Ai development that were implemented in the aftermath of the Sharon Apple incident were (temporarily i think?) rescinded after initial contact with the Vajra was made. Not only are Luca's Ghosts legal, he used SMS simulators to train the AI, so the higher-ups knew all about them as well, presumably.

's that how that went? I know the UN Government banned the construction and development of sentient virtuoids, and attempted to legislate Sharon Apple's music off the shelves altogether (though it didn't last).

Macross Chronicle doesn't say much of anything about the legality of the Judah system except that it's unofficial... which means that Luca and co. likely didn't have official sanction to be operating it like that, or if they did that it was an off-the-books/covert affair likely obtained via LAI or Bilra Transport Co.'s immense wealth (esp. since the latter basically owns the Frontier Government).

[GuardianGrey]

I prefer true honestly over Internet bravado; with your comment you would act no different, VaIkyrie Driver, I feel respected at least.

Seto Kaiba, the simple act of thinking outside the normal paradigm of a setting/situation & expressing that as an opinion can be consider political.

I was making the 'gun control' of the comment based on what I heard hear of the politically going on in the Macross-universe and comparing it to the UN Arms Trade Treaty. A simple comparison of theologies & actions taken, no more or less,
There are also a number of other (potentially more political) parallels in reality that can be looked to, if one does not have all the cannon information to immerse themselves in.

On the monkey models that is permitted by the arms/trade restrictions compared to the full versions that the Unity Government allows their military to have access to, that subject by itself can cause strife and paranoia.

For a group (frontier planet/emigration fleet) that has shown no strife or discontent and is use to the entitlement (to their view) of having access to the best gear, getting second best (the monkey model) with the knowledge the core military gets the full version may rub the wrong way. The facts of why the restrictions are in place may not placate the group in question, if anything it might enrage & make them paranoid. This is because it may seem to them that they are consider 'potential threat' to the main collective of the Unity Government, which can lead to one of three primary outcomes;

• They seem to placate themselves and put their collective faith/trust in the Unity Government's decision on this and potential future maters.
• They do their best to distance themselves form the core government, attempting to do so without strife or severing ties with.
• They attempt to breakaway & be Independent from the Unity Government, which may or not be classed as a dispute in need of military intervention.

This is not based on a political views, but that of human nature & cultural conditioning.

"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way."

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Overall though I think you might be onto something, hinting at some pretty dark commentary.

Two saying that come to mind;

"See through the glass darkly."

"The brighter the picture, the darker the negative."

On the "See through the glass darkly," is to refer to you man think you know/see everything on a situation, though there maybe something at play you do not have knowledge of at that time (or ever).

"The brighter the picture, the darker the negative," actually dates back to the old glass-plate days of photography, though the pop-culture reference from the Batman; The Animated Series holds the similar philosophical view of "If it is too good to be true, it probably is."

I was thinking about this afterwords, and you are right that their seems to be "some pretty dark commentary" in Macross, Valkyrie Driver, if one looks & thinks on that which is not clearly spoken of.

So. let us look over some, shall we?
This is not meant to distract from the AVF Upgrade Candidates topic, but a free thinking exercise on Macross & what you perceive from the franchise.
No response to the following is required,

If you feel you wish to flame/rant to me about it, you may contact me by the Forum's personal messenger.

Macross Zero (OAV)

• The OTEC may have helped develop the VF-X-1 before the SV-51 took flight, though why in reality would the Anti-UN forces feel they would need such a complex machine?
  To stave off what they felt is a possible UN offensive with dissimilar (VF-0/1) or Destriods?
  An equal proliferation of Arms, for what end?
  I am under the assumption that the Anti-UN Alliance was on the loosing side of the Unification Wars at this point.
• Was the ASS-1 & South Ataria Island a closed site that originally only the OTEC & UN forces had access to?
  Was there not access for an independent/secondary agency/group allowed on site to investigate?
• Nora Polyansky's blame/hatred placed against the UN & its allies/forces seem to be rooted in her loss & scarring, which could very well been an 'accident' that happens in war.
  Or could it be more a personal issue, even more horrific than the flashback Shin has of what he seen while hiding under the bed?
• Operation Iconoclast clearly shows that if the (early Macross-universe) UN could not have access to, or control of, an area/object; it would not be adverse to destroyed it order for the potential threat it might pose to the organization is neutralized (at any cost, it seems)
  Was this the only time the UN Forces took such actions?
  With deployment of the "Daisy Cutter" (and said horrific air-fuel weapons are in stockpiles), it seems the Anti-UN has no qualms about. Is this due to similar deployments have been done by both side?

Macross (TV Series)

• Why was there a need for the Unification Wars?
  Was it because the UN in no-spoken terms seem to declare that because they had the ASS-1, that if those did not follow their dictates would not get the technology to protect themselves?
• Due to the hardships of the population during both the Unification Wars & after Space War I, many felt that the UN brought on the problems everyone had to deal with.
  People would most likely be labeled as trouble-makers that willingly let their views be honestly known.
• Why did the UN insist that reclamation zones (that they outlined) were the only safe places that the survivors could resettle?
  If one wished to go salvage the destroyed landscape and try to live independently form, would they have been forbidden to do so?

Macross (Movie)

• Why was the origin of the ASS-1 changed?
  Was it to be some form of disinformation to the masses?
• Where did the idea for the Altira come from?
  Was it suppose to be an acknowledgment of the Mayan Islands?
  Was this a 'plant' of information to have people accept the New Macross colony ships (that would have been in concept planning at that point)?

Macross M3 (Game)

• (2022AD-MC) The Dancing Skull special forces team destroy an abandoned UN Forces biological weapons research base at the site of Protoculture ruins on the planet New Asia, after the base is deemed a biohazard.
  Like those of in Mayan, are there any other known Protoculture ruins site?
  Are they being investigated/preserved?
  What is the UN Forces doing with Biological Weapons research in the past & at this time?
• (April 2030AD-MC) The YF-11-2 with equipped fold booster rescued Chairperson Lawrence Yun Kemal.
  This shows that an AVF-grade is not needed for said missions, though it would make it easier.
  Would the VF-11MAXL or VF-17 do better if needed to do so in the future (since both can get back into orbit)?

Macross Plus (OAV/Movie/Game)

• Mostly covered in last posted comment
• I had forgotten about the Neo Glaug of the Game. Thank you, Seto Kaiba, for pointing out that it was a drone.
  I would have classed it as an EVA & not a VF, do not think it was given the same AI bio-chip set as the X-9.
  There is also a Neo Glaug (VBP-1/VA-110) in the Macross R series that is a manned AVF-grade version of the Variable Glaug.

Macross 7, Frontier & other materials

• I have not seen/read (fully or in part) so I can not comment.

[Seto Kaiba]

On the monkey models that is permitted by the arms/trade restrictions compared to the full versions that the Unity Government allows their military to have access to, that subject by itself can cause strife and paranoia.

Perhaps if Macross were military conspiracy-theorist wank material like Metal Gear Solid... but surprisingly you don't find that kind of paranoia in US or Russian allies who are frankly glad to be able to purchase (or even customize) export variants, even if they're for previous-generation fighters. It's often a lot cheaper than trying to develop new aircraft on their own.

For a group (frontier planet/emigration fleet) that has shown no strife or discontent and is use to the entitlement (to their view) of having access to the best gear, getting second best (the monkey model) with the knowledge the core military gets the full version may rub the wrong way.

What makes you assume that emigrant fleets have ever used (or felt entitled to) "the best gear"?

Look to the early years of the emigration program and you see that they don't use the latest and greatest equipment. What they're used to is using equipment that lets them get the job done the most efficient and cost-effective way possible. That's the reason for the existence of the VF-5, VF-7, VF-9, VF-5000, and so on. Comparatively inexpensive to produce, easy to maintain using limited resources, and effective enough to do its job well.

The story behind the VF-171 is practically identical... what it brought to the table wasn't the latest uber-high performance, but rather all the same bells and whistles that went into Shinsei and General Galaxy's unstable superstars at a fraction of the price, and with a level of performance that surpassed their previous fighters without becoming unmanageable. That made it the "Goldilocks" fighter that became the next main fighter alongside the AIF-7/QF-4000 Ghost.

Fleets can build more potent aircraft if they really want to, but most of them don't seem to really see the need to have Earth's latest bleeding-edge toys. The 37th Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet (Macross-7) didn't bother with AVFs at all until five years or so after it was decided that the VF-19 would tentatively become the next main fighter... and even then they only built a handful on a trial that ended up assigned to the Special Forces.

The OTEC may have helped develop the VF-X-1 before the SV-51 took flight, though why in reality would the Anti-UN forces feel they would need such a complex machine?

To stave off what they felt is a possible UN offensive with dissimilar (VF-0/1) or Destriods?

An equal proliferation of Arms, for what end?

Um... did you forget that Earth as a whole was collectively prepping for a potential alien invasion? If they didn't have the help of the UN Forces, they'd need to defend themselves if Earth were attacked.

Yeah, maintaining a comparable level of military capability to the UN Forces gear was part of it, since the Alliance was hoping that they'd be able to preserve the soverignty of whatever nations were backing them, but that turned out to be a pipe dream anyway... since those nations pulled out of what quickly became an unwinnable war.

Was the ASS-1 & South Ataria Island a closed site that originally only the OTEC & UN forces had access to?

They had a city full of civilians living there, and it was possible to move there for nonmilitary purposes like Minmay did... so smart money says "No, except during the initial investigation", which was, by the way, carried out before the UN Government existed.

Was there not access for an independent/secondary agency/group allowed on site to investigate?

OTEC was a multinational research and development organization... not a direct organ of the UN Gov't.

Nora Polyansky's blame/hatred placed against the UN & its allies/forces seem to be rooted in her loss & scarring, which could very well been an 'accident' that happens in war.

Or could it be more a personal issue, even more horrific than the flashback Shin has of what he seen while hiding under the bed?

No, it's explicitly the deaths of her family and the wound she suffered in the UN Wars.

Operation Iconoclast clearly shows that if the (early Macross-universe) UN could not have access to, or control of, an area/object; it would not be adverse to destroyed it order for the potential threat it might pose to the organization is neutralized (at any cost, it seems)

Was this the only time the UN Forces took such actions?

That is the only incident that has been mentioned or otherwise described, and it seems to have been very atypical for the UN Forces... no doubt because of the high stakes involved in a dangerous terrorist group that had already showed it was not above nuking heavily populated cities off the map with reaction weaponry (like they did to St. Petersburg, Russia in 2006) or ambushing evacuation fleets to prove a point. Letting advanced alien technology like the Birdhuman fall into the hands of an organization with that little in the way of tactical scruples would be rather dangerous.

With deployment of the "Daisy Cutter" (and said horrific air-fuel weapons are in stockpiles), it seems the Anti-UN has no qualms about. Is this due to similar deployments have been done by both side?

None have been mentioned in connection with the UN Forces, no.

Why was there a need for the Unification Wars?

Was it because the UN in no-spoken terms seem to declare that because they had the ASS-1, that if those did not follow their dictates would not get the technology to protect themselves?

No, the UN Government was a government formed by the common consent of the nations of Earth, drafted via the old United Nations. The UN Wars were brought about by separatists/partisans in various member nations who were opposed to such things as the formation of the "one world" government, the particulars of its constitution, the mandated dissemination of technological gains from OTM research and the uneven dissemination thereof, and a variety of other minor factors for which one nation or ethnic group dislikes another.

(It may be a factor that, as noted in Macross Chronicle, the UN Government's most influential backers were the more affluent, developed nations in the West like the US, Britain, France, and Germany... while the Anti-Unification forces' support was strongest in Eastern nations, apparently including parts of Russia, Israel, and Germany. This was only about nine years after the fall of the Soviet Union, so a divide in terms of East-West is not altogether surprising, though it's worth noting that Russia was a founding member of OTEC as well.)

Due to the hardships of the population during both the Unification Wars & after Space War I, many felt that the UN brought on the problems everyone had to deal with.

Barring Kaifun, who was a massive hypocrite, there don't seem to have been many folks who genuinely felt that way. He had some short-lived shows of support from people who were having trouble coping with the stress of living on post-apocalyptic Earth, but that's about all.

Why did the UN insist that reclamation zones (that they outlined) were the only safe places that the survivors could resettle?

If one wished to go salvage the destroyed landscape and try to live independently form, would they have been forbidden to do so?

Gee... couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that most of Earth's surface was a barren and sterile wasteland, with poor air quality and possible radiation contamination... with little or no access to food, fuel, medical care, etc.

If someone wanted to go live in the reactor housings of Chernobyl, you'd stop them too.

Anyway... it's telling me I have too many quote blocks, so I'll deal with the rest of the questions succinctly in plaintext.

"Why was the origin of the ASS-1 changed?

Was it to be some form of disinformation to the masses?"

Explicitly, it was done to draw a line under the severity of the Zentradi threat.

Where did the idea for the Altira come from?

Was it suppose to be an acknowledgment of the Mayan Islands?

It isn't said, probably just a nod to Atlantis myths, and a way to work the Protoculture's role in Earth's current situation home without getting into genetic theory.

Like those of in Mayan, are there any other known Protoculture ruins site?

Are they being investigated/preserved?

Yes, the ones on Uroboros, the Vajra home world, Varauta 3198XE's 4th planet, and Lux before it got blown up. Some of the YF-30's technology comes from the Protoculture ruins on Uroboros.

What is the UN Forces doing with Biological Weapons research in the past & at this time?

Not biological weapons in the modern sense... think more "bio-weapons" in the sense of the Zentradi being "biological weapons". The UN Forces' exact motivations there are unclear.

(April 2030AD-MC) The YF-11-2 with equipped fold booster rescued Chairperson Lawrence Yun Kemal.

This shows that an AVF-grade is not needed for said missions, though it would make it easier.

Would the VF-11MAXL or VF-17 do better if needed to do so in the future (since both can get back into orbit)?

The YF-11 didn't have a pinpoint barrier, production-model fold drive, etc., and didn't have the stealth capabilities or defensive ability to carry off a surprise rescue. It ended up being a full-on battle, against heavy opposition. The goal of the AVFs was to do that without needing to blast your way through the enemy's front lines first.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[JB0]

Fleets can build more potent aircraft if they really want to, but most of them don't seem to really see the need to have Earth's latest bleeding-edge toys. The 37th Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet (Macross-7) didn't bother with AVFs at all until five years or so after it was decided that the VF-19 would tentatively become the next main fighter... and even then they only built a handful on a trial that ended up assigned to the Special Forces.

They built a -19 for a homeless rock star before the special forces got a shot at them.

<noncanon musings>

Which I guess means it's possible the special forces guys only got it because Basara had already demonstrated the thing had a significant real-world advantage over their current rides.

I kind of like the idea of Basara getting a -19 to "beta-test" it for the rest of the fleet. Making sure the Sound Force project is useful even if Dr. Chiba's sound energy theory had turned out to be just the ravings of a mad man.

</noncanon musings>

And then they built a pair of -22s for their fleet commander and mayor because why not? Clearly the military and civilian leaders of your entire gig should be on the front lines where they can more effectively oversee operations.

(And it was awesome and I love them for it.)

[Seto Kaiba]

They built a -19 for a homeless rock star before the special forces got a shot at them.

Well, to be fair, said homeless rock star got it because the UN Forces wanted/needed a mook to handle field testing of Project M hardware, and he fit the bill for being both a dedicated musician who really believed in the Minmay Attack and being too thick or too self-obsessed to realize he was the guinea pig for a military black project.

Which I guess means it's possible the special forces guys only got it because Basara had already demonstrated the thing had a significant real-world advantage over their current rides.

I kind of like the idea of Basara getting a -19 to "beta-test" it for the rest of the fleet. Making sure the Sound Force project is useful even if Dr. Chiba's sound energy theory had turned out to be just the ravings of a mad man.

It would've been a neat idea, tho that didn't stop the military from carrying out its own evaluation of the VF-19F/S before they moved to adopt them for Emerald Force.

And then they built a pair of -22s for their fleet commander and mayor because why not? Clearly the military and civilian leaders of your entire gig should be on the front lines where they can more effectively oversee operations.

(And it was awesome and I love them for it.)

When the military and civilian leaders exhibit a level of ass-kicking commensurate to their authority, why the hell not?

[JB0]

When the military and civilian leaders exhibit a level of ass-kicking commensurate to their authority, why the hell not?

Honestly, it made sense for Operation Stargazer. And I imagine after they got back, Millia just harangued him about it endlessly.

"You got your own VF-22? "

"Well, it was a necessity for the miss-"

"You know they're based on MY Quedluun!"

"I'm aware some of the technol-"

"And one of YOUR so-called 'ace pilots' stole and destroyed MY VF-1!"

"I assure you Gamlin had the best of inten-"

"I'm not blaming anyone. But the VF-22 is a really nice plane."

"*sigh* I can get the factory satellite to build a second one if you'd like."

"Oh, if it's not too much trouble! MAKE SURE THEY PAINT IT THE RIGHT SHADE OF RED!"

[Seto Kaiba]

Honestly, it made sense for Operation Stargazer. And I imagine after they got back, Millia just harangued him about it endlessly.

"You got your own VF-22? "

"Well, it was a necessity for the miss-"

"You know they're based on MY Quedluun!"

"I'm aware some of the technol-"

"And one of YOUR so-called 'ace pilots' stole and destroyed MY VF-1!"

"I assure you Gamlin had the best of inten-"

"I'm not blaming anyone. But the VF-22 is a really nice plane."

"*sigh* I can get the factory satellite to build a second one if you'd like."

"Oh, if it's not too much trouble! MAKE SURE THEY PAINT IT THE RIGHT SHADE OF RED!"

... is it bad that I not only found this scenario completely plausible, but that I read it in their voices?

[Gubaba]

One correction... I doubt she'd blame Gamlin, since she was the one who trained him...

Edited August 27, 2015 by Gubaba

[VF-0RC]

But she did blame Gamlin, IIRC.

[Valkyrie Driver]

But she did blame Gamlin, IIRC.

She said she blamed him, in order to get her way, when she took the VF-17S.

... is it bad that I not only found this scenario completely plausible, but that I read it in their voices?

No, I heard Chris Patton and Luci Christian (in an odd parody of Full Metal Panic!), when I read it. Cuz you know, ADV SDFM dub...

[JB0]

... is it bad that I not only found this scenario completely plausible, but that I read it in their voices?

I think it just means I strike close to the truth of the matter.

[Valkyrie Driver]

So, while browsing through my master file book, I ran into some Schematics of the VF-9, which got me wondering if the VF-9 could be made into a poor man's VF-19?

[Seto Kaiba]

So, while browsing through my master file book, I ran into some Schematics of the VF-9, which got me wondering if the VF-9 could be made into a poor man's VF-19?

Actually, didn't we touch on this one earlier in this thread?

That's a thing that someone actually tried, in-series. General Galaxy toyed with the idea of improving the VF-9 Cutlass with a modestly detuned variant of the same engine used in the VF-22 (the FF-2450C, rated at 620kN, vs. the 640kN B variant). The resulting airframe, designated VF-9E, is noted as having had a disquieting tendency to explode in midair, which led to the project's cancellation.

The VF-9E first appeared in Macross the Ride, as the personal craft of Vanquish racer Nicolas Berthier.

Edited August 29, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[Valkyrie Driver]

Actually, didn't we touch on this one earlier in this thread?

That's a thing that someone actually tried, in-series. General Galaxy toyed with the idea of improving the VF-9 Cutlass with a modestly detuned variant of the same engine used in the VF-22 (the FF-2450C, rated at 620kN, vs. the 640kN B variant). The resulting airframe, designated VF-9E, is noted as having had a disquieting tendency to explode in midair, which led to the project's cancellation.

The VF-9E first appeared in Macross the Ride, as the personal craft of Vanquish racer Nicolas Berthier.

Ok, I couldn't remember if we'd touched on it or not. I would tend to think that exploding would generally make for a poor design...

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok, I couldn't remember if we'd touched on it or not. I would tend to think that exploding would generally make for a poor design...

Yeah, they never really bothered to go into detail as to why the VF-9E developed the irksome habit of spontaneous detonation... but one can hardly fault General Galaxy for backing away from it as swiftly as its test pilots probably did after the first one blew up. The description in Macross the Ride indicates that controlling it during flight was a monumental challenge, and that their tendency to explode mid-flight was repeatable in practice rather than theoretical.

(The VF-9E's issues are apparently what ended General Galaxy's upgrade plans for the VF-9, as Ride notes it's the final variant.)

The only schmuck brave or suicidal enough to own/fly one that we've been introduced to is a cyborg from Eden with a fiber optic-enhanced nervous system that boosts his response speed... 'course, the YF-19 wasn't much better, considering it put two of its test pilots in the ground and two more in the ICU before Shinsei found someone capable of handling it.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[GuardianGrey]

On the monkey models that is permitted by the arms/trade restrictions compared to the full versions that the Unity Government allows their military to have access to, that subject by itself can cause strife and paranoia.

Perhaps if Macross were military conspiracy-theorist wank material like Metal Gear Solid... but surprisingly you don't find that kind of paranoia in US or Russian allies who are frankly glad to be able to purchase (or even customize) export variants, even if they're for previous-generation fighters. It's often a lot cheaper than trying to develop new aircraft on their own.

In part, yes, though not 100% correct.

Potitical ties between the US & Allies were strained by the trade restriction on military equipment during the 1960's-70's. While they were 'happy' to get craft like the proposed F-5G/F-20, although they really wanted the F-16 (cutting edge at the time). This was resolved in the 80's by a loosening of those restricions.

This was most recently (early 2000's) revisited with the US Defense Department choice (originally) to not give the UK RAF access to the programming codes for the F-35 that they needed for maintance/fine-tuning of their units.

On the costs of trying to produce a countries own craft, your point is vaild in more ways than one. Though that is another full topic by itself.

For a group (frontier planet/emigration fleet) that has shown no strife or discontent and is use to the entitlement (to their view) of having access to the best gear,

What makes you assume that emigrant fleets have ever used (or felt entitled to) "the best gear"?

Look to the early years of the emigration program and you see that they don't use the latest and greatest equipment. What they're used to is using equipment that lets them get the job done the most efficient and cost-effective way possible. That's the reason for the existence of the VF-5, VF-7, VF-9, VF-5000, and so on. Comparatively inexpensive to produce, easy to maintain using limited resources, and effective enough to do its job well.

The story behind the VF-171 is practically identical... what it brought to the table wasn't the latest uber-high performance, but rather all the same bells and whistles that went into Shinsei and General Galaxy's unstable superstars at a fraction of the price, and with a level of performance that surpassed their previous fighters without becoming unmanageable. That made it the "Goldilocks" fighter that became the next main fighter alongside the AIF-7/QF-4000 Ghost.

Fleets can build more potent aircraft if they really want to, but most of them don't seem to really see the need to have Earth's latest bleeding-edge toys. The 37th Long-Distance Emigrant Fleet (Macross-7) didn't bother with AVFs at all until five years or so after it was decided that the VF-19 would tentatively become the next main fighter... and even then they only built a handful on a trial that ended up assigned to the Special Forces.

I was more focusing on the fronier planets on my original statment than fleets, though as the fleets were deployed the most advanced common craft were used. Once settled though, they would as for the plans to upgrade to 'the best' for defense. Though with Macross R, it seems most perfer the more cost effective garisson option of D&D (Destriods & Drones).

After I wrote the prior, I see your point, Seto Kaiba. I got wrapped-up in my tanget & lost focus.

Still, any intellectual would question the double standard of the Unity Goverment limiting the technologies to others while allowing themselves unfrittered access in the name of being the peace-keepers/-makers.

To many times in history, the sole protectors of a regime eventually become the subjectators there of.

___________________

On JBO's script, yeah I 'heard' it to in my head on the second read-through.

On the VF-9E; I think it was a great idea, although the flight control of (it seems) any swept forward wing design is extreme (or more would be flying).

Add the fact that it seems the FF-2450 series turbines have an overheating issue, that seems to be agravated to the point of exploding (uncontrolled & rapid critical mass seeming to be achieved)

In theory, would switching out to another turbine that does not have an overheating issue, like the FF-3600J (630 kn) &/or detune it to tolerance levels of the frame solve the issue of explosions?

On the flight control; the VF-9E is to the VF-19 series like a Gee Bee is to that of a Red Bull. just as powerful though more of a b!+(# to handle.

[JB0]

Critical mass is a concept of great importance in fission reactions, but not one with meaning in the realm of fusion where Macross operates.

[GuardianGrey]

Critical mass is a concept of great importance in fission reactions, but not one with meaning in the realm of fusion where Macross operates.

Hm... that maybe true & I used the wrong terminology.

Though be it an atomic (fission) or hydrogen (fusion) bomb, the result is that both go 'big badah BOOM!'

Same could be said of reactors going into uncontrolled chain reactions due to excessive heat build-up.

[Seto Kaiba]

Potitical ties between the US & Allies were strained by the trade restriction on military equipment during the 1960's-70's. While they were 'happy' to get craft like the proposed F-5G/F-20, although they really wanted the F-16 (cutting edge at the time). This was resolved in the 80's by a loosening of those restricions.

The difference here being that the emigrant fleets and planets are perfectly at liberty to build a VF-19 or VF-22... but with limiters on the performance of various components.

I was more focusing on the fronier planets on my original statment than fleets, though as the fleets were deployed the most advanced common craft were used. Once settled though, they would as for the plans to upgrade to 'the best' for defense.

That's not actually true through.

When the emigrant fleets were launched, they were equipped with the fighters that were available in large numbers, and suited to their intended purpose. They didn't necessarily get the latest and greatest, or even the same fighter the UN Forces were using as their main fighter. Look to the descriptions of the fighters developed by Stonewell/Bellcom (later Shinsei) and General Galaxy with the emerging emigrant planet market in mind, and what do we see? They're pushing cost performance, not flight performance. In all the fighters produced specifically for the emigrant market, we see the recurring theme of low cost. They went in for fighters that could be bought or built cheaply, and maintained in fighting condition with the limited support infrastructure an early emigrant fleet's ships (or a recently settled planet) could provide. Shinsei and General Galaxy's first big sellers as rivals were both low-cost, lightly armed fighters for planetary defense... the VF-5000 and VF-9, respectively.

They might've had some of the high performance main fighters of the era, but most leavened that with more cost-effective fighters like the VF-1, VF-5, or VF-5000. Later on, some opted for more specialized craft whose performance wasn't necessarily better in all respects, over the military's main fighter. The Varauta system, for instance, opted for the VF-14 Vampire instead of the VF-11. After the 2040's, some fleets did away with VF's altogether and used Ghosts exclusively. Others stuck with later, economized designs like the VF-171 over more expensive, less accessible designs like the VF-19 or VF-22.

The only planet that seems to have gone consistently for "the best" instead of "the most cost-effective" is Earth.

Though with Macross R, it seems most perfer the more cost effective garisson option of D&D (Destriods & Drones).

All told, the usage of destroids is somewhat unusual... most destroids were retired and sold off as construction equipment, or found their way to less dignified positions as target practice. Drones and cost-leader VF's like the Nightmare Plus were the rule. Frontier used the AIF-7S/QF-4000 and VF-171 jointly as their main fighters.

Still, any intellectual would question the double standard of the Unity Goverment limiting the technologies to others while allowing themselves unfrittered access in the name of being the peace-keepers/-makers.

To many times in history, the sole protectors of a regime eventually become the subjectators there of.

Considering the debacle the VF-19 and VF-22 turned into, most of the emigrant worlds and fleets were probably chucking a little at the folly of the core forces, splurging on Shinsei and General Galaxy's unstable superstars before bowing to the inevitable with the Nightmare Plus.

As far as the UN Forces' potentially running away with itself, that's why after Latence's attempted coup, the government instituted a new watchdog agency to prevent exactly that... and then reorganized the military anyway to put it on a shorter leash.

In theory, would switching out to another turbine that does not have an overheating issue, like the FF-3600J (630 kn) &/or detune it to tolerance levels of the frame solve the issue of explosions?

It's not said that it's an overheating issue... or that, if it is, it's internal to the engine rather than the fighter-side coolant loop servicing the engine.

[GuardianGrey]

It's not said that it's an overheating issue... or that, if it is, it's internal to the engine rather than the fighter-side coolant loop servicing the engine.

Well, considering this logically (sometimes counter-productive with fictional settings);

• The FF-2450B of the YF-21/VF-22/22S had turbine limitations in space due to not having the cooling while in atmophere (& potential of melting the reactor core).
• The VF-22HG has limitations on its FF-2450C while in space (could be assumed that the same issue as the B model)
• Excessive heat in a thermonuclear reactors is usually not a good thing (causing melt-down or explosions)
• The VF-9 seems to have less potential in its frame for the coolant loops to service, hence higher temptures are reached faster (& more chance of Boom!).

So, yeah, I think it is a default internally of the (FF-2450) turbine series.

Considering that other than the YF-19, no other of that series uses the FF-2200B turbine or had reported cooliant issues.

The A & P variants use the lower output FF-2200, with none of the issues that the YF-19 had with the B model.

Edited August 30, 2015 by GuardianGrey