AVF Upgrade Candidates

[Valkyrie Driver]

So having a pure hydrogen slush for fuel would eliminate the need for 2 separate tanks. Is the fusion reaction the engine would use based on anything concrete?

[Andras]

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/fusionfuel.php#id--Fusion_Reactions

[Seto Kaiba]

So having a pure hydrogen slush for fuel would eliminate the need for 2 separate tanks. Is the fusion reaction the engine would use based on anything concrete?

Well, they still carry liquid oxygen because the verniers and other onboard rocket motors (if any) also draw on the hydrogen tanks... but yes, hydrogen-hydrogen fusion moderated/catalyzed by gravity is based on something very concrete. It's also one of several candidates for aneutronic fusion for power generation.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I looked up the F-14 as it's been a huge influence on variable fighter design. The F-14 doesn't actually have ailerons, it uses tailerons (flying tail, that functions as elevators and ailerons) and spoilers for pitch and roll control.

Would a variable fighter be likely to use a similar control scheme, except using thrust vectoring rather than the tailerons?

[Seto Kaiba]

I looked up the F-14 as it's been a huge influence on variable fighter design. The F-14 doesn't actually have ailerons, it uses tailerons (flying tail, that functions as elevators and ailerons) and spoilers for pitch and roll control.

Would a variable fighter be likely to use a similar control scheme, except using thrust vectoring rather than the tailerons?

Unlikely, IMO... as just about every VF which has had detailed coverage has ailerons and either a V-tail or X-tail configuration in which the stabilizers function as ruddervators. (The VF-22 is the only notable exception, being that its wing is essentially one colossal variable cant, variable camber control surface.)

The only ones that don't appear to have flaps and ailerons are the VF-5000, VF-9, VF-17, VF-22*, Fz-109F, and VB-6... and in many of those cases, it may be because the line art is at a relatively low detail level and doesn't show any control surfaces.

The VF-17 likely has the same control surface arrangement as the VF-171 (which did have ailerons), the Fz-109 likely has the same as the VF-14 (same story), the VF-22 has independently mobile sections of wing that roughly correspond to both but are not distinct from the entire mechanism of the wing, etc.

EDIT: The VF-2JA from Macross II: Lovers Again definitely doesn't have ailerons, but its configuration is roughly analogous to the F-14's, being that it has six stabilizers... four vertical/canted, and two horizontal/taileron.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[Valkyrie Driver]

In that case, it would use the thrust vectoring in conjunction with the control surfaces to enhance its maneuverability, correct?

[Seto Kaiba]

In that case, it would use the thrust vectoring in conjunction with the control surfaces to enhance its maneuverability, correct?

Bingo... especially if, as in the VF-171's case, the single-axis thrust vectoring is actually multi-axis via the present of multiple, stacked sets of nozzles as in this instance.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Yeah, I was actually about to ask about that. So are the VF-171 and VF-22 the only VF's with multi axis thrust vectoring?

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah, I was actually about to ask about that. So are the VF-171 and VF-22 the only VF's with multi axis thrust vectoring?

Well, that rather depends on whether the fighters with single-axis thrust vectoring are truly single-axis or whether, like the picture above, they've actually got some range of motion in another axis. (I think it's likely that many do.)

The SV-51, SV-52, YF-21, VF-22, and YF/VF-27 all use X-31-style multi-axis/three-dimensional arrangements of three thrust-vectoring paddles.

The YF/VF-27 and YF-29 also use axisymmetric three-dimensional vectoring nozzles for their outboard engines.

Most of the others use pitch-axis thrust vectoring nozzles, though the VF-17/VF-171 have yaw-axis thrust vectoring nozzles instead.

[Valkyrie Driver]

That picture pretty definitively shows pitch axis control on those VF-171's though.

[Seto Kaiba]

That picture pretty definitively shows pitch axis control on those VF-171's though.

Hence the first point in my last post.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Ok, I guess I misread the post. Man, Seto, I don't know how you do it. I have so many numbers, figures, rules, and other knowledge rattling around up there it drives me nuts.

[Mommar]

Bingo... especially if, as in the VF-171's case, the single-axis thrust vectoring is actually multi-axis via the present of multiple, stacked sets of nozzles as in this instance.

Which episode is that scene from?

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok, I guess I misread the post. Man, Seto, I don't know how you do it. I have so many numbers, figures, rules, and other knowledge rattling around up there it drives me nuts.

A good memory for detail, and notes... pages and pages and pages of notes. Seriously, it's like an open-notes college exam over here.

Which episode is that scene from?

The screencap? That's not from the Macross Frontier series. It's one of the early scenes in the second movie. Talos screencap'd it for me ages ago, and until this thread it was collecting digital dust in my Skype received files folder.

[Sildani]

I can see it now. Master File: Seto Kaiba.

[GuardianGrey]

Since we seem to be discussing verniers & thrust vectoring, I do have a question.

There is no doubt about the vernier motors have enough thrust to lift a VF into VTO...

As I said before---the Harrier's puff-jets turned up to 11.

Which brings up my point.

The puff-jets on a Harrier helps in transition from level flight to hovering & back.

Above is a training VF-1 in GERWALK mode, though what is the mode below?

Is it GERWALK simply Without Arms deployed, or a aircraft with extreme thrust vectoring by moving the main engines (JBO's comment about emergency stopping comes to mind)?

Considering my theoretical VTOL with just using the vernier motors (in Real World Technological References of Macross Variable Aircraft) was with the original controls, not the Block 6 HOTAS system (which the computerized controls very well may not allow such maneuvers).

[Seto Kaiba]

I can see it now. Master File: Seto Kaiba.

Nobody'd buy that... it's several thousand pages of largely illegible handwriting.

Above is a training VF-1 in GERWALK mode, though what is the mode below?

Is it GERWALK simply Without Arms deployed, or a aircraft with extreme thrust vectoring by moving the main engines (JBO's comment about emergency stopping comes to mind)?

Considering my theoretical VTOL with just using the vernier motors (in Real World Technological References of Macross Variable Aircraft) was with the original controls, not the Block 6 HOTAS system (which the computerized controls very well may not allow such maneuvers).

It's GERWALK without the arms deployed... it's not really used any differently from regular GERWALK mode. (Which doesn't really preclude its impromptu use as a jet with extreme thrust-vectoring, as seen on more than one occasion.)

[GuardianGrey]

Okay...

Making a lot of assumptions here...

Considering Valkyrie Driver's original lines on this thread, a VF upgrade to AVF standards.

And, we are given the examples of how Boeing is now manufacturing the F-15 & F/A-18 (both were McDonnall-Douglas products) in a way that is (debatable) better & more cost effective than the originals...

In the Macross continuum we do see a similar situation in Macross R with the Galaxy fleet's VF-19C/M25...

Now, the biggest question is do all the factory ships in the fleets construct items in the exact same way?

The answer seems to be, "no."

The VF-11D-Kai is (to the best of my understanding) a Fleet 37 exclusive, in similar fashion to the VF-19EF/M27 of the Frontier fleet.

Though the specifications might be transmitted for reproduction in another fleet, the receiving unit may not do everything exactly the same (even automotive plants making the same model have differences), hence (I believe) the /M##.

Another unknown is how does a fleet produce equipment?

The easiest answer is a factory ship, though that is more a "where" than a "how."

I would assume that there is some CADAM (Computer Aided Design And Manufacture) system aboard, though how it works is the question.

Assuming that the ship has a foundry (for raw materials to be made into alloys), machining (either to shape the materials by computer-guided milling/shaping-equipment, or 3D printing) & assembly areas.

Though, are these areas set-up for individual builds, or in a series for mass production (or does it make a micro-factory ship for dedicated production)?

Now, going with the Boeing F-15/F-18 production (similar to the General Galaxy VF-19C/M25).

They don't have the original facilities to make the crafts of the original, so they also make design changes to the final product specifications (the F/A-18E has 1/3 less frame members than the C series, due to an internal structure redesign), then build/retool a factory line that can produce said.

Taking note, a fleet could do similar to the VF-11C for AVF specifications. Besides lowering the amount of material for the same performance, they might do as Mr. Douglas did with the DC-3/C-47 (use a grade better material than the design calls for. It didn't save weight but did make for a stronger frame).

With the specifications being recalculated, the modifications to facilitate the FF-2099A/FF-3600J turbines of the VF-16, a fighter-scale PPBS & active stealth system can be done (as seen in the C-Interceptor, D-Kai & MAXL series).

With what I can calculate, this proposed VF-11CX version would be on par with the VF-171, and would be easier to maintain than (do to the fact many crews would know how to work on a VF-11).

Though, like the VF-1-X, not much more can be done after these modifications, least not without extreme re-design.

On Valkyrie Driver's original suggestion of using the VF-0 framework, the concept was (for the most part) proven.

The VF-0(A)Kai is (mostly) a VF-25 in a different airframe, only systems missing are an EX-Gear cockpit, ISC/IVCS equipment & a fighter-scale PPBS.

Sure the L.A.I. round-table did not provide them in the VF-0(A)Kai, & I would not have placed them in a one-off racing unit that is piloted by a "crash" king either (& special operations can make those modification at their expense).

Though, for a fleet fighter for mass production, a VF-0X (as I would designate it) should have that equipment standard.

[Seto Kaiba]

Now, the biggest question is do all the factory ships in the fleets construct items in the exact same way?

The answer seems to be, "no."

Officially, the answer is "No"... in the 2050's.

The UN Government doesn't seem to have been particularly troubled by emigrant fleets having the same level of military hardware as the core UN Forces until emigrant discontent with the government took a sharp uptick in the late 2040's and early 2050's, which culminated in some armed conflicts between the UN Forces and anti-government rebels equipped with AVF-level fighters. Beyond that point, we start to see a proliferation of "monkey model" specs and the UN Forces withholding details of newly developed tech from the emigrant fleets... leading to the VF-19EF, VF-19C/MG21, VF-25, VF-27, etc.

The VF-11D-Kai is (to the best of my understanding) a Fleet 37 exclusive,

As far as we know, yeah... though the modifications were almost entirely spiritia warfare-related. In other respects, the Jamming Birds were using mostly stock VF-11D's. Those, like the other Sound Force birds, were limited production aircraft too... practically one-offs built for special duty.

Though the specifications might be transmitted for reproduction in another fleet, the receiving unit may not do everything exactly the same (even automotive plants making the same model have differences), hence (I believe) the /M##.

Pretty much, yes... though it's worth noting that that appellation is actually used even for fighters that were (almost) entirely developed in the emigrant fleets... not just for locally produced monkey models or customized variants like the VF-19EF or VF-19C/MG21.

Another unknown is how does a fleet produce equipment?

The easiest answer is a factory ship, though that is more a "where" than a "how."

I would assume that there is some CADAM (Computer Aided Design And Manufacture) system aboard, though how it works is the question.

In most cases, there's some kind of design firm or defense contractor with an office aboard the emigrant fleet or on the emigrant planet that handles the actual design and production. Macross Frontier had a local Shinsei office and LAI collaborating on design work for the VF-25 alongside the fleet arsenal. Macross Galaxy was already a subsidiary of General Galaxy. Not sure who was administrating the Macross-7 fleet's Three Star factory ship.

Assuming that the ship has a foundry (for raw materials to be made into alloys), machining (either to shape the materials by computer-guided milling/shaping-equipment, or 3D printing) & assembly areas.

Though, are these areas set-up for individual builds, or in a series for mass production (or does it make a micro-factory ship for dedicated production)?

The smaller emigrant fleets have separate factory ships like the Three Star-type, which are more or less a one-stop shop for the fabrication of anything from daily basic commodities to variable fighters and starships. They're basically agglomerations of both refineries and factories strapped haphazardly to a large central reaction furnace. If there's a need, odds are they've got at least one area to fill it.

Larger emigrant ships apparently internalize their factories and so on, within the sublevels of the ship.

[GuardianGrey]

Officially, the answer is "No"... in the 2050's.

The UN Government doesn't seem to have been particularly troubled by emigrant fleets having the same level of military hardware as the core UN Forces until emigrant discontent with the government took a sharp uptick in the late 2040's and early 2050's, which culminated in some armed conflicts between the UN Forces and anti-government rebels equipped with AVF-level fighters. Beyond that point, we start to see a proliferation of "monkey model" specs and the UN Forces withholding details of newly developed tech from the emigrant fleets... leading to the VF-19EF, VF-19C/MG21, VF-25, VF-27, etc.

Well, politics and military/police actions that may seem suppressive to some will cause blow-back.

If a emigrate group felt that way and had access to AVF equipment...

Well, enough said...

The VF-11D-Kai is (to the best of my understanding) a Fleet 37 exclusive,

As far as we know, yeah... though the modifications were almost entirely spiritia warfare-related. In other respects, the Jamming Birds were using mostly stock VF-11D's. Those, like the other Sound Force birds, were limited production aircraft too... practically one-offs built for special duty.

Yes, the VF-11D-Kai was a limited production aircraft (I believe only 20 built).

Other than the secondary pilot area set for a spiritia operator & the booster-pods for; the internal missile launchers, modified turbines & PPBS still have the units being well rounded craft.

Some might argue that the VF-27 & YF-29 are also specialized designs for Varja combat.

Pretty much, yes... though it's worth noting that that appellation is actually used even for fighters that were (almost) entirely developed in the emigrant fleets... not just for locally produced monkey models or customized variants like the VF-19EF or VF-19C/MG21.

"... that were (almost) entirely developed in the emigrant fleets... "

Now on that, theoretical (& for those that also role-play) emigration fleets could "evolve" into other VF designs (via Kawamori or not).

Like a fleet that left with VF-3000...

And then develop it into a new design like the VF-2JS with AVF specifications/technology...

Or the flotilla/frontier-world would like a different frame from the YF-24, and decide that either the VF-4 or VF-5000 would be a better start...

Which leads to a design dissimilar to the VF-2SS...

Now, with the SAP system (with some modifications), that design could theoretically pull par for mission duties with the VF-25 Super & (possibly) Armored systems...

Which reminds me when I watched Macross II, that the UN Spacy had also changed the emblem/kite from that of the TV/movie and also was using the NUNS abbreviation.

The smaller emigrant fleets have separate factory ships like the Three Star-type, which are more or less a one-stop shop for the fabrication of anything from daily basic commodities to variable fighters and starships. They're basically agglomerations of both refineries and factories strapped haphazardly to a large central reaction furnace. If there's a need, odds are they've got at least one area to fill it.

Larger emigrant ships apparently internalize their factories and so on, within the sublevels of the ship.

What is quantifiable as a large/small fleet, I have no clue.

Though, internalizing the factory facilities within the main vessel makes sense.

I might be wrong, though the SDF-1 did not have a factory vessel with it, so I am assuming that the other engine compartment was said manufacturing area for.

Also, assumed that all SDFN for research or short emigration fleets would be similar equipment, since they are based off the Macross.

Edited June 5, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Seto Kaiba]

Yes, the VF-11D-Kai was a limited production aircraft (I believe only 20 built).

Yeah, one lot of 20 craft... a special run for the Jamming Birds unit the Macross 7 fleet garrison established.

Other than the secondary pilot area set for a spiritia operator & the booster-pods for; the internal missile launchers, modified turbines & PPBS still have the units being well rounded craft.

That's because they didn't change a hell of a lot about them... most of the alterations, barring the engine change, had little or no effect on performance.

Some might argue that the VF-27 & YF-29 are also specialized designs for Varja combat.

That's... not really ambiguous. That's explicitly confirmed by the very first sentence of Macross Chronicle's description of the YF-29.

Now on that, theoretical (& for those that also role-play) emigration fleets could "evolve" into other VF designs (via Kawamori or not).

Possibly... though that only really seems to have become a factor in the 2050s and on, after the core (New) Unified Forces stopped sharing the latest toys in an unaltered form. It's probably more likely to occur in fleets or emigrant planets that are more distant from Earth... like Frontier and Galaxy, which were basically a galactic radius away from home.

What is quantifiable as a large/small fleet, I have no clue.

Though, internalizing the factory facilities within the main vessel makes sense.

On that level, the fleets that had a population of ~1 million of less seem to have favored breaking out support functions into other ships like those seen in Macross 7. It seems like, as time went on, more and more of those functions were incorporated into the central colony ship itself as the ships and their populations got larger.

So, for this very specific purpose, I guess you could say that a "small" fleet is maybe 1 million or fewer emigrants and ~200 ships... while a "large" fleet is multiple millions of emigrants (like Frontier's 10 million) and more ships.

I might be wrong, though the SDF-1 did not have a factory vessel with it, so I am assuming that the other engine compartment was said manufacturing area for.

Also, assumed that all SDFN for research or short emigration fleets would be similar equipment, since they are based off the Macross.

Well, the SDF-1's situation was unique in that it wasn't really launched for exploration or emigration (in practice). It had to make do with the modest factory it had aboard. I would assume that the Macross-class SDFN's would have a more advanced and robust factory in response to the needs of operating further from Earth, advances in technology, and having less than 1/5th the number of people aboard.

[GuardianGrey]

Yes, the VF-11D-Kai was a limited production aircraft (I believe only 20 built).

Yeah, one lot of 20 craft... a special run for the Jamming Birds unit the Macross 7 fleet garrison established.

Other than the secondary pilot area set for a spiritia operator & the booster-pods for; the internal missile launchers, modified turbines & PPBS still have the units being well rounded craft.

That's because they didn't change a hell of a lot about them... most of the alterations, barring the engine change, had little or no effect on performance.

So, in theory for the concept of a VF-11 with AVF technology that is factory installed does have some merit.

Some might argue that the VF-27 & YF-29 are also specialized designs for Varja combat.

That's... not really ambiguous. That's explicitly confirmed by the very first sentence of Macross Chronicle's description of the YF-29.

I don't have access to the Macross Chronicle, so my comment was based on the opinions formed with limited resources I have.

Now on that, theoretical (& for those that also role-play) emigration fleets could "evolve" into other VF designs (via Kawamori or not).

Possibly... though that only really seems to have become a factor in the 2050s and on, after the core (New) Unified Forces stopped sharing the latest toys in an unaltered form. It's probably more likely to occur in fleets or emigrant planets that are more distant from Earth... like Frontier and Galaxy, which were basically a galactic radius away from home.

On timeline of Macross, I do see your point. Though, two situations would most likely promote independent/inspired development/evolution of VF design(s).

The first would be long term communications issues. For if there was a loss of long-rang transmission capability, or complete loss of equipment for, new/replacement units would be needed at some point in time. I'm not sure how directed/secure UN Spacy transmissions are, though if they operate like standard radio waves, those that lost the ability to transmit would still be able to receive information/specifications for the newer units. This could continue until the limiting of data (that starts in the 2040's, sighting that the Macross 7 fleet had to get an experimental license to build the VF-22S) and equipment (noting in Macross R that LAI had permission to build/modify the VF-19E with the monkey model plans they were given, because Earth was highly reluctant to give fleets/frontier-worlds AVF units). Even though there was Project: Triangle (in which, we haven't yet seen what the Olympia's YF-26 looks like), the YF-24 Evolution's data was supposed sent feet wide (which means any receiving group could have gotten it).

In the case of total communications loss, who knows what might be thought up over time.

The second scenario is with well financed/organized antigovernment groups. For those organizations, a new/modified unit for their militant fighters isn't just a combat craft, but a symbol of their cause. So, if such thing is the case, an AVF redesign/version of the VF-3000 Crusader (like the design of the VF-2JA) would not only be a weapon, it would be their rallying cry.

Edited June 7, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Seto Kaiba]

So, in theory for the concept of a VF-11 with AVF technology that is factory installed does have some merit.

In a VERY limited fashion, yes... the VF-11D Custom's only real AVF-tier modifications were the installation of the same verniers the VF-19 uses, and a pinpoint barrier system. Otherwise, the modifications were relatively minor... like enlarged canards and uptuned (11%) versions of the VF-11's regular engines.

Normally, AVF level technology only finds its way into 3rd Generation or older VF's on a one-off basis.

On timeline of Macross, I do see your point. Though, two situations would most likely promote independent/inspired development/evolution of VF design(s).

The first would be long term communications issues.

Personally, I don't think that scenario is at all likely... even fold faults can't completely obstruct communications between fleets, and with the galaxy network playing a significant part in inter-fleet and inter-world commerce (cultural exports and so on), the complete loss of communication is likely to raise some eyebrows sooner rather than later and prompt an investigation. Every ship with a fold system has fold communications capability... so losing ALL long-range communication would generally mean you've misplaced the entire fleet (and therefore they're probably dead) or some malicious third party is interfering (which is likely to end with either losing the fleet or the enemy losing theirs, which likewise isn't likely to last all that long).

The second scenario is with well financed/organized antigovernment groups. For those organizations, a new/modified unit for their militant fighters isn't just a combat craft, but a symbol of their cause. So, if such thing is the case, an AVF redesign/version of the VF-3000 Crusader (like the design of the VF-2JA) would not only be a weapon, it would be their rallying cry.

Developing a new fighter takes a significant input of capital and an awful lot of time... there are a few cases where anti-government groups or criminals have obtained AVF-level craft, but they don't seem to go in for modification. Obtaining the UN Forces' fighters through illegitimate channels seems to be easier by far (e.g. the poachers in Macross Dynamite 7, who were able to obtain VF-17 Nightmares and reaction weaponry through intermediaries). On the rare occasion where they've had original mecha, they've had help from crooked defense contractors... but developing all-new craft seems to be easier.

[GuardianGrey]

In a VERY limited fashion, yes... the VF-11D Custom's only real AVF-tier modifications were the installation of the same verniers the VF-19 uses, and a pinpoint barrier system. Otherwise, the modifications were relatively minor... like enlarged canards and uptuned (11%) versions of the VF-11's regular engines.

Normally, AVF level technology only finds its way into 3rd Generation or older VF's on a one-off basis.

True, though a limited fashion makes sometimes a better stopgap unit than an entire new airframe design, and is more cost effective.

Also, is not the only major difference between the C & D series VF-11 units the number of seats?

On timeline of Macross, I do see your point. Though, two situations would most likely promote independent/inspired development/evolution of VF design(s).

The first would be long term communications issues. For if there was a loss of long-rang transmission capability, or complete loss of equipment for, new/replacement units would be needed at some point in time.

Personally, I don't think that scenario is at all likely... even fold faults can't completely obstruct communications between fleets, and with the galaxy network playing a significant part in inter-fleet and inter-world commerce (cultural exports and so on), the complete loss of communication is likely to raise some eyebrows sooner rather than later and prompt an investigation. Every ship with a fold system has fold communications capability... so losing ALL long-range communication would generally mean you've misplaced the entire fleet (and therefore they're probably dead) or some malicious third party is interfering (which is likely to end with either losing the fleet or the enemy losing theirs, which likewise isn't likely to last all that long).

Hence, why I worded that a fleet that has the loss of fold-wave transmission capacity.

I know Fold-waves can be used as apart of a FTL telecommunications network.

Though, (I believe) like modern-day radio/satellite systems, if one cannot produce a signal, all they can do is listen.

If the Megaroad-01 had lost the ability to transmit a signal; they may still be operating normally though can't say what is going on with them.

A frontier-world that had lost its fold-wave transmitter because it was destroyed due to a bandit raid might be able to receive the GNN programs still.

With the UN Spacy broadcasting the specifications of the YF-24; either of the former scenarios could (theoretically) produce a 5th generation VF, though be unable to report any feedback.

The second scenario is with well financed/organized antigovernment groups. For those organizations, a new/modified unit for their militant fighters isn't just a combat craft, but a symbol of their cause. So, if such thing is the case, an AVF redesign/version of the VF-3000 Crusader (like the design of the VF-2JA) would not only be a weapon, it would be their rallying cry,

Developing a new fighter takes a significant input of capital and an awful lot of time... there are a few cases where anti-government groups or criminals have obtained AVF-level craft, but they don't seem to go in for modification. Obtaining the UN Forces' fighters through illegitimate channels seems to be easier by far (e.g. the poachers in Macross Dynamite 7, who were able to obtain VF-17 Nightmares and reaction weaponry through intermediaries). On the rare occasion where they've had original mecha, they've had help from crooked defense contractors... but developing all-new craft seems to be easier.

Originally (pre 2050's), I would strongly agree with you, Seto Kaiba, though with antigovernment sentiments creeping up on frontier-worlds & fleets, the likelihood that said group(s) might be able to do as the original Anti-UN forces did increases (production of their own VF units).

As for crooked contractors/politicians giving the "bad guys" the equipment they need, which usually serves the crooks' ends; we see that in reality.

--------------

Something I remember from reading specs/synopsis of the VF-11D Thunder Focus, that while recording the Unlimited-class races, it utilizes a special booster system to keep up with.

With the Super FAST packs provided for the VF-25 seeming to also be power-stations for the unit (the YF-25's Paladin pack allowed ECA/PPBS active in all modes), can that technology be used in reverse to upgrade the Super parts and bring 3rd generation VF fully to unassisted AVF (or possibly of the barest minimum of 5th gen) specifications?

Edited June 7, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Seto Kaiba]

True, though a limited fashion makes sometimes a better stopgap unit than an entire new airframe design, and is more cost effective.

Well, that depends on the nature of the upgrade... if upgrading an existing design results in increased maintenance downtime and cost as a result of pushing an older design past its limits or including new capabilities it wasn't designed to support, it could end up more expensive to maintain the fleet of older aircraft than to replace them with a newer design that requires less maintenance.

Also, is not the only major difference between the C & D series VF-11 units the number of seats?

Pretty much, yeah... the same basic arrangement as most other tandem cockpit Valkyries.

If the Megaroad-01 had lost the ability to transmit a signal; they may still be operating normally though can't say what is going on with them.

A frontier-world that had its fold-wave transmitter because it was destroyed due to a bandit raid might be able to receive the GNN programs still.

With the UN Spacy broadcasting the specifications of the YF-24; either of the former scenarios could (theoretically) produce a 5th generation VF, though be unable to report any feedback.

My point is that there really isn't a way to achieve that result without effectively destroying the colony... which takes the "long term" portion out of the equation. This isn't a single-point-of-failure system.

An emigrant fleet is one or more emigrant ships and a military escort detail with anywhere from dozens to hundreds of fold-capable warships. Each and every one of those fold-capable ships has at least one fold communications system. So your typical planet on the frontier could have anywhere from 70 to 500 ships chilling out in orbit... assuming they don't also have a factory satellite or two kicking around the Lagrange points the way several are known to. To lose contact with the greater galaxy, you'd need all of those fold communications systems to fail simultaneously... dozens, or hundreds, at once. Even if there's a fold fault or something that's interfering, you just send a ship back to drop relay satellites like we see in Frontier... or just send a ship or two out as messengers requesting assistance the way Macross Galaxy did.

Originally (pre 2050's), I would strongly agree with you, Seto Kaiba, though with antigovernment sentiments creeping up on frontier-worlds & fleets, the likelihood that said group(s) might be able to do as the original Anti-UN forces did increases (production of their own VF units).

Anti-government groups haven't exactly gone away in the aftermath of the government reorganizing (in which many of them got exactly what they were after), but in the 2050s they seem to be less of an issue... and as many of them seem to be content with using existing hardware.

Something I remember from reading specs/synopsis of the VF-11D Thunder Focus, that while recording the Unlimited-class races, it utilizes a special booster system to keep up with.

A custom Super Pack, yeah... because the Thunder Focus is equipped with a pair of stock VF-11 Thunderbolt engines (FF-2025G), and almost every racer has twice that or better in engine output.

With the Super FAST packs provided for the VF-25 seeming to also be power-stations for the unit (the YF-25's Paladin pack allowed ECA/PPBS active in all modes), can that technology be used in reverse to upgrade the Super parts and bring 3rd generation VF fully to unassisted AVF (or possibly of the barest minimum of 5th gen) specifications?

Difficult to say, but my suspicion would be "probably not"... at least, not for more than a couple minutes.

FAST packs aren't really meant for continuous burn... they've only got enough fuel to yield maximum thrust for a couple minutes. I believe the VF-11's are rated for 5 minutes at full power.

The capacitors that drive the VF-25's Armored and Paladin pack equipment might work short-term. We don't know anything about their endurance, but if they're anything like the ones in the VF-11's Armored Pack, then their endurance without being recharged in flight by the fighter's engines would probably be pretty short.

[GuardianGrey]

Well, that depends on the nature of the upgrade... if upgrading an existing design results in increased maintenance downtime and cost as a result of pushing an older design past its limits or including new capabilities it wasn't designed to support, it could end up more expensive to maintain the fleet of older aircraft than to replace them with a newer design that requires less maintenance.

That is why I was trying to keep with Valkyrie Driver's examples of the Boeing F-15 Silent Eagle & F/A-18 Super Hornet when discussing the concept for the VF-11-X Thunderbolt Plus.

The only major difference in structure between the VF-11B/C seems to be the leg/ventral with internal missile capability(1).

This innovation in the VF-11C/D is also present in the Thunderbolt Interceptor (C-Kai) & Jamming Bird (D-Kai) without external variation in that portion of the aircraft, despite having a different set of turbines (assuming similar for the MAXL).

Other than that the MAXL series (& assumed C-Kai/D-Kai) needing reinforcements to handle the higher output engines, there seems to be no more difficulty in maintaining those units compared with regular VF-11B/C/D variable craft(2).

With this said, a proposed VF-11-X should be able to achieve orbit over an earth-class planet without additional boosters & meet the first AVF requirement.

Another design aspect is the vernier motors and actuators.

The VF-11D-Kai used the P&W HMM-7 verniers to aid in maneuvering (may have needed due to increased weight).

The Nothung II (VF-11B-Kai) had improved/linear actuators replace the original parts for faster transformation times (on par with the VF-19).

Either of these design features could be incorporated into a stopgap unit with a strengthened frame, though debatable whether they would increase performance notably.

I'm not aware of what the difference is between the Fire Control &/or the Active Stealth Systems of the Thunderbolt & VF-19, other than performance.

If the difference is in a few components that need to be swapped out for to facilitate, then that should be a simple (though potentially expensive) Block upgrade for any VF-11.

The YF-11-2 test craft utilized a fold-booster, as did the VF-11MAXL-Kai.

This then is another AVF requirement is met that the VF be able to use said system.

On the fighter-scale Pin-Point Barrier System, that is harder to say.

The C-Kai, D-Kai & MAXL-Kai are the only VF-11 units with.

The M7 VF seemed to be able to use their PPBS without any noticeable issues, while the Thunderbolt Interceptor needed a separate energy storage system to power the PPBS it had for limited time & knocked the long range sensors off-line.

This could mean that the PPBS is a difficult to maintain system, or that it would have been better if it was installed by mechanics at a factory.

Even without a PPBS or Advanced Active Stealth System, a proposed VF-11-X (upgrade for either C/D series) could still be a viable AVF stopgap unit.

If the Megaroad-01 had lost the ability to transmit a signal; they may still be operating normally though can't say what is going on with them.

A frontier-world that had lost its fold-wave transmitter because it was destroyed due to a bandit raid might be able to receive the GNN programs still.

With the UN Spacy broadcasting the specifications of the YF-24; either of the former scenarios could (theoretically) produce a 5th generation VF, though be unable to report any feedback.

My point is that there really isn't a way to achieve that result without effectively destroying the colony... which takes the "long term" portion out of the equation. This isn't a single-point-of-failure system.

An emigrant fleet is one or more emigrant ships and a military escort detail with anywhere from dozens to hundreds of fold-capable warships. Each and every one of those fold-capable ships has at least one fold communications system. So your typical planet on the frontier could have anywhere from 70 to 500 ships chilling out in orbit... assuming they don't also have a factory satellite or two kicking around the Lagrange points the way several are known to. To lose contact with the greater galaxy, you'd need all of those fold communications systems to fail simultaneously... dozens, or hundreds, at once. Even if there's a fold fault or something that's interfering, you just send a ship back to drop relay satellites like we see in Frontier... or just send a ship or two out as messengers requesting assistance the way Macross Galaxy did.

Okay, my misunderstanding due to reading too much BattleTech.

In said, they have (similar) fold technologies, though not every ship/station/planet has fold-wave (hyperspace-pulse) communications system (took up to much power/space for practical transportation in that series).

Though they did have a plot device that could, in weak theoretical logic, be applied into the Macross continuum.

Since all fold-wave technology (& assuming OS as well) is based off of Protoculture Civilization development, some genius/wacko could figure out how to encode a virus that cripples (including the possibility of damaging) the system & attaches itself to any/all transmissions from said transmitter before activating via the ancient coding.

This would be highly dangerous because there would be no defense against because it (because it has never been done), it would also mean the originator of the viral would also lack communications & how much damage it could/would cause (both in hardware & social ramifications).

With using the oldest coding to do so, even Zentradi systems would be affected.

Originally (pre 2050's), I would strongly agree with you, Seto Kaiba, though with antigovernment sentiments creeping up on frontier-worlds & fleets, the likelihood that said group(s) might be able to do as the original Anti-UN forces did increases (production of their own VF units).

Anti-government groups haven't exactly gone away in the aftermath of the government reorganizing (in which many of them got exactly what they were after), but in the 2050s they seem to be less of an issue... and as many of them seem to be content with using existing hardware.

On this, you may have a point, Seto Kaiba, for its easier to use what is available.

Although, why some antigovernment groups may have fought was for independence from the Unity Government, and were either fully (American Colonies becoming the U.S.A.) or partly (the split up of the Republic of Ireland & Northern Ireland) successful.

After that, the idea of a modified/new VF for themselves may take root, but not be distributed to other fleets/worlds (have to take care of themselves first, for the NUNS are not going to be coming to be the heavenly saviors).

With the Super FAST packs provided for the VF-25 seeming to also be power-stations for the unit (the YF-25's Paladin pack allowed ECA/PPBS active in all modes), can that technology be used in reverse to upgrade the Super parts and bring 3rd generation VF fully to unassisted AVF (or possibly of the barest minimum of 5th gen) specifications?

Difficult to say, but my suspicion would be "probably not"... at least, not for more than a couple minutes.

FAST packs aren't really meant for continuous burn... they've only got enough fuel to yield maximum thrust for a couple minutes. I believe the VF-11's are rated for 5 minutes at full power.

The capacitors that drive the VF-25's Armored and Paladin pack equipment might work short-term. We don't know anything about their endurance, but if they're anything like the ones in the VF-11's Armored Pack, then their endurance without being recharged in flight by the fighter's engines would probably be pretty short.

Starting with the VF-0 Angel package...

... from the early to the third generation VF units, and their FAST/Super parts...

... gave additional speed/thrust and firepower was added, though not any generated power for the systems used.

This seems to change with the developments made by U.N. Spacy Project M Special Unit.

Sound Force Units 1, 2 & 3 were independently powered craft, though only Unit 2 seems to have been usable in both fighter & battriod modes.

Due to the power requirements of for broadcasting with the sound energy technology, I had perceived that the engines for the VF-11D-Kai's aerospace boosters were actually separate thermonuclear turbines in which to provide the necessary energy output for...

... but with the 5 minutes of maximum thrust seems to discredit that line of thought.

Even with Overtechnology, the facts remain...

Rocket boosters mostly produce thrust & speed, though almost nothing else...

Thermonuclear turbines in the series provide power & thrust...

Battery arrays allow power storage, though charging/depleting them too quickly can cause problems (ie; explosions)...

Capacitors also allow energy storage & can be charged slow or fast, though releasing that power from usually is an all at once process (very hard/impossible to just bleed off energy), which makes them good for systems that have a momentary need of power...

Now the VF-25 APS-25A/MF25 has supposedly only enough fuel for 2 minutes of maximum thrust use (approximately 15-20 minutes of combat maneuvers).

It also has two Hachishuu Heavy Industries C-207 high-capacity capacitors to power beam guns, energy conversion armor and pin-point barrier.

If they're just two single capacitor units (one per booster), with normal physics, that is not possible/practical to power the systems with a steady supply.

So, I am assuming that the C-207 is a system of banked capacitors for a more controlled release.

Which brings us to the question, how are they charged?

We have knowledge that beam guns, ECA & PPBS have heavy energy consumption rates, to the point where the VF-27 & YF-29 need all four of their turbines to actively power them all. Even with capacitors fully charged, that rate of usage does not change, and said systems should be depleted quickly.

Considering that the FF-3001A turbines of the VF-25 are already near maximum output without trying to recharge the capacitors of the APS-25A/MF25, the only easy logical way to recharge them is already in the boosters themselves.

For while in fighter mode, the VF-25's FF-3001A turbines are usually diverting power for thrust.

The YF-25's SPS-25P/MF25 Paladin Pack does have an energy capacitor built into chest armor allowing it to obtain the same defensive capability as a heavy Battroid. While using immense electrical power, the energy converting armor is laminated into the area where the energy condenser is built-in, making it possible to, literally, dogfight with a Vajra.

Though, where is the capacitor getting the power from before energizing the ECA, since the FF-3001A turbines can't do the feat without the Super Parts?

Only logical thing I can think of is power from the four Gobishi Heavy industries SLE-7A main booster engines.

Though these engines (possible thermonuclear turbines?) are designed more for thruster, than energy, output. I don't know exactly how they are supposed to work, other than assumptions.

In closing, why could FAST/Super parts not be designed/utilized like the VF-27/YF-29 additional engines, not just for additional speed but also for more power to internal systems (power PPBS & ECA in all modes)?

Even if it is for a short while (most modern aerial combat lasts less than 3 minutes, and the APS-25A can last at least five times as long) it would still be an advantage.

____________________

1. A feature difference between the McDonnall-Douglas and Boeing F-15 designs.

2. Dissimilar to the differences between the McD-D & Boeing made F-15 & F/A-18 craft, that have not affected maintenance of either version.

[Seto Kaiba]

The only major difference in structure between the VF-11B/C seems to be the leg/ventral with internal missile capability(1).

Structurally, yeah... the VF-11C is an economized model, but according to Chronicle its performance limits are pretty much identical to the earlier -B variant.

This innovation in the VF-11C/D is also present in the Thunderbolt Interceptor (C-Kai) & Jamming Bird (D-Kai) without external variation in that portion of the aircraft, despite having a different set of turbines (assuming similar for the MAXL).

Other than that the MAXL series (& assumed C-Kai/D-Kai) needing reinforcements to handle the higher output engines, there seems to be no more difficulty in maintaining those units compared with regular VF-11B/C/D variable craft(2).

's hard to say... since the VF-11D Custom "Jamming Birds" type, MAXL, MAXL Custom, and VF-11 Thunderbolt Interceptor are all one-off or limited production craft that either belong to civilians or special forces, they're likely getting more intensive maintenance than a normal fighter would get.

I'm not aware of what the difference is between the Fire Control &/or the Active Stealth Systems of the Thunderbolt & VF-19, other than performance.

If the difference is in a few components that need to be swapped out for to facilitate, then that should be a simple (though potentially expensive) Block upgrade for any VF-11.

Well... that's kind of a slippery-slope problem. Once you've replaced the engines, upgraded the airframe and armor materials, put new actuators and verniers in, and installed the AVF-tier avionics and sensor packages, you've basically put most or all of the cost involved in just building a new AVF from scratch into your upgrade program... but with less endurance.

The YF-11-2 test craft utilized a fold-booster, as did the VF-11MAXL-Kai.

This then is another AVF requirement is met that the VF be able to use said system.

Well, yes... but to be fair, actual compatibility with a fold booster was never exclusive to AVF-level craft. Native support for the fold booster was an AVF goal, but even that was kind of low-hanging fruit.

The M7 VF seemed to be able to use their PPBS without any noticeable issues, while the Thunderbolt Interceptor needed a separate energy storage system to power the PPBS it had for limited time & knocked the long range sensors off-line.

This could mean that the PPBS is a difficult to maintain system, or that it would have been better if it was installed by mechanics at a factory.

A pinpoint barrier system requires an obscene amount of power to operate... even an AVF needs to throw more than half its power output into the barrier to keep it running. So, IMO, it's likely that the VF-11D Custom and VF-11MAXL have similar "Cheats" to get pinpoint barriers working with substantially less engine. The Interceptor model's probably leaning more heavily on the battery than most because it's a air racing plane, and thus needs to preserve engine output.

I doubt being factory-installed would make much difference...

Okay, my misunderstanding due to reading too much BattleTech.

In said, they have (similar) fold technologies, though not every ship/station/planet has fold-wave (hyperspace-pulse) communications system (took up to much power/space for practical transportation in that series).

Yeah, fold communications systems in Macross can be made pretty darn small... every fold-capable ship has at least one, and the military-grade fold communication (left) and relay pod (right) systems are barely the size of missiles, and the relay at least has an interstellar range.

Since all fold-wave technology (& assuming OS as well) is based off of Protoculture Civilization development, some genius/wacko could figure out how to encode a virus that cripples (including the possibility of damaging) the system & attaches itself to any/all transmissions from said transmitter before activating via the ancient coding.

Nah... the human-built fold systems in Macross seem to use human-coded software for their operation, which likely varies between models and manufacturers. They're probably a bit gunshy about using alien software after what happened the first time... what with the accidentally starting an interstellar war that nearly wiped out humanity and all.

Although, why some antigovernment groups may have fought was for independence from the Unity Government, and were either fully (American Colonies becoming the U.S.A.) or partly (the split up of the Republic of Ireland & Northern Ireland) successful.

The ones we know about seem to fall into two groups:

• Anti-government groups which wanted more autonomy for the emigrant planets and fleets. (This group got exactly what it wanted when the government reorganized.)
• Groups which want to increase the power of the military OVER the government in the name of protecting humanity from extinction (e.g. Latence, FASCES).

Starting with the VF-0 Angel package...

... from the early to the third generation VF units, and their FAST/Super parts...

... gave additional speed/thrust and firepower was added, though not any generated power for the systems used.

Actually, that seems to be true for pretty much all FAST packs except the special-use types like the Armored or Tornado packs...

This seems to change with the developments made by U.N. Spacy Project M Special Unit.

Sound Force Units 1, 2 & 3 were independently powered craft, though only Unit 2 seems to have been usable in both fighter & battriod modes.

Well, yes... because those aren't really FAST packs. It's basically the same arrangement as the VF-0A's Ghost Booster or VF-27's Super configuration from the second Macross Frontier movie... except, unlike the VF-0A, the drone and the aircraft carrying it have thermonuclear reaction engines.

(Based on the visual similarity, I can't help but suspect the VF-27's QF-5100 Goblin II drone is a relative of whatever drone formed the basis for Basara's sound booster.)

Due to the power requirements of for broadcasting with the sound energy technology, I had perceived that the engines for the VF-11D-Kai's aerospace boosters were actually separate thermonuclear turbines in which to provide the necessary energy output for...

... but with the 5 minutes of maximum thrust seems to discredit that line of thought.

Yep... the boosters in conventional FAST packs are of the rocket variety. Probably still hybrid rockets like the original generation of FAST packs.

So, I am assuming that the C-207 is a system of banked capacitors for a more controlled release.

Which brings us to the question, how are they charged?

Well, they're likely charged off the reaction furnaces of the ship before launch... and then kept topped off by the reaction engines of the fighter they're mounted to when not in use.

Only logical thing I can think of is power from the four Gobishi Heavy industries SLE-7A main booster engines.

Though these engines (possible thermonuclear turbines?) are designed more for thruster, than energy, output. I don't know exactly how they are supposed to work, other than assumptions.

I doubt it. If these were thermonuclear reaction turbines, they'd be described as such... the descriptions given for them make them out to be high-powered rocket motors like those of pretty much every FAST pack save for the Tornado Pack.

In closing, why could FAST/Super parts not be designed/utilized like the VF-27/YF-29 additional engines, not just for additional speed but also for more power to internal systems (power PPBS & ECA in all modes)?

The answer is almost certainly "because it'd be obscenely expensive".

On its own, the APS-25A Armored Pack is so prohibitively expensive that it's restricted to platoon leader-use only. The VF-25's TW1 Tornado Pack is the only one known to have internal thermonuclear reaction engines, and it's said to be even more expensive than the VF-25's Armored Pack. On paper, a FAST Pack is supposed to be a space augmentation system that boosts performance and armament while remaining cheap enough to technically be disposable.

[Andras]

Plus the chemical thrusters are more powerful then the fusion turbines going back to the Vf-1 Super packs, ~10x more powerful then the stock FF2001 w/o overboost.

Even the VF-25s Super boosters are ~twice as powerful as the installed fusion turbines.

[GuardianGrey]

I do not understand what seems to be the aversion of a VF-11 being upgraded to/with AVF technology.

As with Valkyrie Driver's original comparison of the Boeing F-15 Silent Eagle & F/A-18 Super Hornet (which was to ingratiate 5th generation ATF technologies into a 4th generation design) as a cost effective alternative to fill in the rank & file.

F-22 Raptor => $150 million

F-35A/B/C Lighting II => $102* million

(*= average cost of the different models)

F-15SE Silent Eagle => $100 million

F-18E/F Super Hornet => $66.9 million

<<<=====>>>

So, I am looking at this as an armchair engineer, and crunchy the numbers as best I can...

The first shortcoming of the VF-11 Thunderbolt series in the 2030-40's was that it could not reach orbital operation ceiling without a booster.

The VF-17 Nightmare could do this, though it was regarded as a special operations craft & the AVF craft are years before there are enough to displace the VF-11 as the UN Spacy's mainline fighter.

(this is before the surge of antigovernment sentiment)

The easiest answer is to increase the turbine output;

FF-2025G; 28,500 kg x2 (279.59 kN x2)

FF-2025S; 31,700 kg x2 (310.98 kN x2)

FF-2099A; 41,500 kg x2 (407.12 kN x2)

FF-3600J; 32,100 kg x2 (315,00 kN x2)

As we already know, the Shinsei Industry/P&W/Roice FF-2025 series of turbines are not up to the task.

The FF-3600J model does have 30% more output over the FF-2025S, though has less than a two percent increase in thrust/weight ratio, and that ratio would be only 13% greater over the 2025G.

The clear winner would be the FF-2099A, with 45% more thrust and a thrust/weight ratio on par with the VF-17.

<<<=====>>>

Which leads to the airframe discussion.

While reading up on what I could on the VF-11MAXL, I noticed something. It is vague on how the overall frame was strengthened to tolerate the FF-2099A thermonuclear turbines.

My belief on the easiest way to strengthen an airframe is how Mr. Douglas ended up doing so with the DC-3, just use the next tensile strength better grade material to make it out of.

Sure, it will not save weight (at best, deal-breaker would be additional), and would mean a minimum change to the machining of the parts (in theory, at least).

<<<=====>>>

On the VF-11's armor, other than an anti-laser coating that also increases its passive-stealth, I would not change it.

<<<=====>>>

With regards to the FCS, navigation & sensor equipment, those usually are apart of Block updates for any series.

With a proposed sturdier airframe, the use of AVF weapon systems should also be easy to facilitate, if needed.

On electrical based systems, the Advanced Activate Stealth (since electronic-countermeasures is the closest equivalent we have in reality for understanding) updating/upgrading should be as simple as the Block modifications of the arrays.

<<<=====>>>

On the fighter-scale PPBS, now that I have crunched the figures and think I understand.

In an earlier post on this thread, I believe Seto Kaiba stated that the PPBS used in the YF-19 consumes 60% of the two FF-2200B thermonuclear turbines output;

FF-2200B; 64,700 kg x2 (662.18 kN x2)

Now, I don't know how to convert thrust into electrical energy, but the apparent output of the FF-2025S & FF-3600J engines of their respective units don't have the power for it by themselves.

The FF-2099A turbines seem able to do so, although it seems that the usage would be over 90% of the twin reactors' capacity.

So, I do agree that either not including a PPBS...

Or the installation of a power reserve system for...

Are the only options to for the system in a VF-11 airframe.

With the only time the thermonuclear turbines able to recharge the "battery" is in battriod mode, the pilot's best option is to leave it off unless absolutely necessary.

Edited June 15, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[sketchley]

I do not understand what seems to be the aversion of a VF-11 being upgraded to/with AVF technology.

I think it's more the mentality of "it doesn't exist until it is part of the official setting (aka canon universe)" mentality.

The Macross RPG playing community has used AVF technology upgraded VF-11's in their games since before 2000 (real world time). Most of those stats have disappeared, but you may have better luck than I did by searching for the VF-11E, VF-11F, and VF-11G variants.

[Seto Kaiba]

I do not understand what seems to be the aversion of a VF-11 being upgraded to/with AVF technology.

As far as my views go, it's principally because what little official information exists on the practice of upgrading older designs to use AVF-level hardware suggests the end result for all but the most minimal changes is usually an unstable and/or unreliable plane the likes of which would potentially be beyond even the skills of an ace pilot to manage... and are thus unsuitable for mass production.

The first shortcoming of the VF-11 Thunderbolt series in the 2030-40's was that it could not reach orbital operation ceiling without a booster.

The VF-17 Nightmare could do this, though it was regarded as a special operations craft & the AVF craft are years before there are enough to displace the VF-11 as the UN Spacy's mainline fighter.

It's not just a matter of raw thrust... but a matter of fuel efficiency. The thing that pushed the VF-17 Nightmare to the level of being able to launch into satellite orbit unassisted was the adoption of a new version of thermonuclear reaction engine technology. It got the FF-2100 thermonuclear reaction burst turbine, which had greatly improved output and, more importantly, fuel efficiency.

One of the key design features of the VF-11MAXL was its delta wing, which offered more room for fuel storage... that probably was as much a factor in its orbital capabilities as the new engines. One also has to wonder if the stock VF-11 could meet the cooling requirements of a more potent engine... because even AVFs are struggling with that on their own.

While reading up on what I could on the VF-11MAXL, I noticed something. It is vague on how the overall frame was strengthened to tolerate the FF-2099A thermonuclear turbines.

They're vague on that subject in general... another instance of it being mentioned but not described in any detail would be on the VF-19EF Caliburn, which had to be reinforced to use the GU-17.

With regards to the FCS, navigation & sensor equipment, those usually are apart of Block updates for any series.

On electrical based systems, the Advanced Activate Stealth (since electronic-countermeasures is the closest equivalent we have in reality for understanding) updating/upgrading should be as simple as the Block modifications of the arrays.

Minor upgrades are... you don't usually drop a next-generation avionics package into the fighter and call it a block upgrade. That takes a lot of adaptation. Whether next-generation sensor systems would even fit is a whole other kettle of fish... the VF-19 radar, for instance, is QUITE large and the VF-25's is actually dependent on the shape and composition of the nosecone.

WRT the active stealth system, that's probably more a case of sufficient generator output than anything else... you need to throw more power behind the active cancellation to defeat more powerful radars.

On the fighter-scale PPBS, now that I have crunched the figures and think I understand.

In an earlier post on this thread, I believe Seto Kaiba stated that the PPBS used in the YF-19 consumes 60% of the two FF-2200B thermonuclear turbines output;

Electrical output... it's not at all clear what the exact relationship between a reaction engine's generator output and thrust output is. It's not helping that we only have generator outputs for two VF's... the VF-1 Valkyrie and VF-2SS Valkyrie II. For those, the output power to engine thrust relationship seems to be a linear progression, and if we knew the efficiency of the MHD systems in the engines it'd be possible to backtrack from maximum instantaneous output in space to a ballpark figure for generator output for the others if it's still linear for VF's in the main timeline.

We're still talking enormous amounts of power here... gigawatts, easily.

[JB0]

With the only time the thermonuclear turbines able to recharge the "battery" is in battriod mode, the pilot's best option is to leave it off unless absolutely necessary.

Which raises the question: How fast does the barrier effect initialize? Could you leave the PPB under computer control in standby, and it could activate a barrier disk shortly before weapons-fire impacted the vehicle, then deactivate it again after the attack had dissipated?

For that matter, how are the disks controlled on the canon barrier-equipped fighters? Are they automated, or do pilots just place them in places they'd really rather not get shot?

[Seto Kaiba]

Which raises the question: How fast does the barrier effect initialize? Could you leave the PPB under computer control in standby, and it could activate a barrier disk shortly before weapons-fire impacted the vehicle, then deactivate it again after the attack had dissipated?

For that matter, how are the disks controlled on the canon barrier-equipped fighters? Are they automated, or do pilots just place them in places they'd really rather not get shot?

That's a good question... in Macross Plus and Macross 7, it seems like the pinpoint barriers are turned off (or at least on hot standby) until they're needed, and then they just appear where they're needed. Usually it's centered on the shield or over a fist. If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably semi-autonomous operation (because the pilot's frankly got enough going on as it is).

IINM (and it has been a while, so I may very well be), the only time we see fighter-scale pinpoint barriers represented as the original series-style discs was in the Macross 7 series. I believe it was either 2 or 3 discs.

[Andras]

There is this:

Which is actually two overlapping discs.

[Valkyrie Driver]

It's not just a matter of raw thrust... but a matter of fuel efficiency. The thing that pushed the VF-17 Nightmare to the level of being able to launch into satellite orbit unassisted was the adoption of a new version of thermonuclear reaction engine technology. It got the FF-2100 thermonuclear reaction burst turbine, which had greatly improved output and, more importantly, fuel efficiency.

FF-2100 TN reaction burst turbine? Any idea how that's supposed to work? I know you've said the thermonuclear turbine works like star trek's impulse drive in space, but is this more true to that moniker?