AVF Upgrade Candidates

[GuardianGrey]

I do thank you, Mr. March & Seto Kaiba, for both your work on the Macross Mecha Manual.

Your insistence for the Highest quality scans, Mr. March, is standard many fan sites should (& they don't) strive for.

The highest resolution (assumed scans) of the SW-AX1 Schneeblume I can find on the net are the one's used by Macross: New Horizon Wiki as art/filler for their fan-unit SV-37 used in the Macross:New Horizon MUSH. I have tried to contact them to ask about the art/scans, though have gotten no response to date.

Their SV-37 Raven page, if you want to look; http://www.macrossnewhorizon.org/mediawiki/index.php/SV-37_Raven

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AVF Candidate Upgrade - VF-0 Phoenix

GuradianGrey, on 18 March 2015 - 13:09, said:

[...]

After Reading Seto Kaiba's response on the ICS, I agree that it may not be able to go in, though how big is the IVCS?

Seto Kaiba, on 18 March 2015 - 14:04, said:

It's not a size concern, but rather that there is some unspecified aspect of the designs of some VFs that make them incompatible with the ISC. The exact nature of the incompatibility is not elaborated upon, unfortunately, however the VF-0 is possibly incompatible, the Zeak doesn't have one listed in its stats.

Response:

I know that information you gave me, to the point that I had already agreed with your response about the ISC use in a VF-0 frame..

My original question was could a IVCS be used in a VF-0 frame (for the proposed AVF Upgrade to 2059 specifications of the VAL-0B proposal), because the ISC maybe incompatible?

Since you, Seto Kaiba, have brought up in prior posts that the VF-0kai Zeak may have been used as a technology test-bed of systems; perhaps the round-table decision to not include the ISC was made then. It was the Macross Galaxy Guld Work's choice to only use two engines & no ISC in the YF-27-5 Shaher Femail, so why could the same not be true of the VF-0kai? By the statistical data, the Zeak is almost a VF-25 in the shell of a VF-0A.

Tangent; I still would like to know were they found a VF-0A in deep space to start building the VF-0kai. Only logically thing I can think up is that it was Shin's (from Macross ZERO).

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AVF Upgrade Candidate - VF-11 Thunderbolt II

GuardianGrey, on 18 March 2015 - 13:09, said:

Mr. March looked and commented that the most likely candidate for the posting was the VF-11 due the number of VF units produced (second only to the VF-1, I believe), which was seconded by Valkyrie Driver.

Seto Kaiba, on 18 March 2015 - 14:04, said:

The chief issue there being the aforementioned problems the VF-11 shares with virtually every other aircraft that could potentially be upgraded to AVF tech levels... insufficient structural strength, limited internal space in the airframe (relative to AVFs) and issues with AVF-level tech.

Response;

Your comment here mirrors your earlier post(s), and farther into my prior post I had pointed said out, though I will repost my response to said quote again;

On the Thunderbolt Interceptor, I believe it is due to the power drain of controlling/using the PPB that shuts down long range sensors there of. Considering, as Seto Kaiba pointed out, that a PPB uses more than half (60-70%) the power-output of the two FF-2200 turbines in a VF-19A. It seems though that the VF-11 kai-units (the MAXL-kai & D-kai, which use lower out-put turbines) have full use of fighter-scale PBS without any adverse effects to other systems. I feel this maybe due to how the units had there PBS installed (M7's kai had the Three-Star factory ship while the Thunderbolt Interceptor was done in a hanger?).

I had looked at the Macross Compedium's pages for the VF-11 (for information on the MAXL kai) & the VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor, and noted that they use different identified turbines though both are supposedly from the VF-16.

Also, that the Thunderbolt Interceptor uses a battery based system to power the PPB which was specifically modification for that unit, not like the M7 kai-units that used the (assumed) turbines there for. This seems to support my opinion that it was the installation of the equipment, not the systems or original framework of the unit, that caused the issues for the VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor.

VF-11 Thunderbolt II; http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-11_Thunderbolt

VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor: http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-11_Thunderbolt_Interceptor

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AVF Update Candidate - Timeframe & Design Considerations

GuardianGrey, on 18 March 2015 - 13:09, said: (Italics were left out from context)

If I am reading it right (though the Macross Compendium needs to intergrade the Macross R information better), the UN military did a call-out for AVF 'proof of concept' units in 2034, with the final candidates for Project: Super Nova decided upon in [2038-39]. As Seto Kaiba pointed out, some of the VF units within Macross R competing in the Unlimited Class races are a few of the 'losers' from the AVF selection.

Seto Kaiba, on 18 March 2015 - 14:04, said:

That's not quite what I said actually... the VF-9E, etc. were unrelated efforts to upgrade existing fighters to AVF standards, a job which was generally abandoned as impractical if not downright dangerous. (e.g. the VF-9E, VF-11MAXL, VF-171EX)

Their development had not direct connection (that we know of) to Project Super Nova and the solicitation for new next-generation designs.

Response:

I do apologize for misrepresenting your earlier posts, Seto Kaiba. You are right than none of the racers had any direct connection with Project: Super Nova. Other than the VF-9E Cutlass, all other Unlimited Class units were either had AVF standards already or were modified AVF class units.

However, via the Macross Compendium information on Macross R, the VBP-1/VA-110 Neo Glaug was developed as a Project: Super Nova candidate. Though calling a EVA a VF seems to be stretching it, though it does show that there were other candidates solicited for the AVF competition other than the YF-19 & YF-21.

VBP-1/VA-110 Neo Glaug: http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VBP-1/VA-110_Neo_Glaug

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AVF Update Candidate - SW-XA1 Schneeblume

GuardianGrey, on 18 March 2015 - 13:09, said:

I felt the VF Experimental craft are like todays proof of concept demonstrators, as a company makes the unit to pitch the idea to the military brass/budget to develop farther along.

Seto Kaiba, on 18 March 2015 - 14:04, said:

Wrong kind of "Experiment"

Aircraft designated VF-X (or XVF) are literally in-universe experimental aircraft like we have in the real world. Offhand, I don't know why the Schneeblume isn't in the VF-E section... probably for what a good clean line art source. "VF-Experiment" is the name of the column in Character Model that the Schneeblume and Schneegans were from... it was the column that ran before VFERR.

Response:

I think we are mostly on the same page, Seto Kaiba, so I shall expand.
Yes I understand that the VF-X-## (or XVF-##) are Macross Continuum cannon experimental craft, and the YF-## are the prototypes that may/may-not be produced farther. This seems to be inline with (at least) US military standards.

Shoji Kawamori's other works are (to me) like the proof of concept crafts, in that (be it pre, or post, production) they are his visions for the VF we may see.

It is the Studio (like the military brass) that choose which get more attention, even if they were a unit initially denied in the past (the development of the VF-3000, VA-3 & VF-9 as examples), but if they are not accepted they never become part of the (cannon) records.

In the real world the US military asks for a lot of crafts to evaluate, as a studio looks for art to get a visual of a project, though either case can be denied while the work still remains done (in prototypes & concept art).

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AVF Update Candidate - VF-17 Nightmare & VF-19 Excalibur

Seto Kaiba, on 18 March 2015 - 14:04, said:

Er... not sure why these are listed as "candidates" desgins... they were already AVFs when they were new, and at least the VF-19 is known to have been able to partly adopt VF-25 equipment.

Response:

As I stated in my prior post, under the Timeframe & Design Considerations, that I did not read Valkyrie Driver's idea on timeframe before my first posting on this Topic thread.

Part of my prior posting under this area was, "I posted part of my Mekton Z+/Macross game units & views in response to thinking that it was upgrade/update to 2059 specifications, and not to the original 2040 timeframe as outlined by Valkyrie Driver. My bad for not reading the Forums fully before posting."

Link to my first post on this thread back at #128: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=42189&page4#entry1184943

It had some errors (like identifying the Thunderbolt Interceptor as a VF-11B/X), and if you want to read & comment on that you can.

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I will admit, Seto Kaiba, other than the few points were I got duplicate information from you, I have learned a good amount from both you, stechley & the others here.

Thanks, Valkyrie Driver. Yeah, I noticed it did go way from the topic, that is why I though listing the units discussed might help. We will see what happens.

[Mr March]

GuardianGrey
Just a bit of notekeeping, it is my theory that the VF-11 Thunderbolt may be THE most mass produced variable fighter, much more than the VF-1 Valkyrie. So VF-11 Thunderbolt mass production wouldn't be second to the VF-1 Valkyrie; in my theory the VF-11 Thunderbolt IS the number one mass produced variable fighter.
Actually, based on the best published information we have, the VF-4 Lightning III mass production already surpassed the VF-1 Valkyrie. Official trivia states VF-4 Lightning III manufacturing produced a total of 8,245 variable fighters. There are no official figures for the VF-1 Valkyrie production, but according to Variable Fighter Master File VF-1 Valkyrie Vol. 1, pg. 52 (2009) there were 5,459 VF-1 variable fighters produced. It's my theory the VF-11 Thunderbolt production is far beyond that, mostly due to vast numbers found in colony fleets like Macross 7 (they had 1,800 VF-11 Thunderbolts). If nearly 2,000 VF-11s are in just one fleet, it's my guess total production including colony worlds, colony fleets and deep space bases would number in the tens of thousands. Perhaps somewhere around 20,000 to 40,000 total built.
That's a lot of cannon fodder

A side note about images for my website...
Thanks to Yahoo, Google and other search engines, the internet is already filled with poor quality, low-res scans of Macross artwork. At this point in the history of the internet, the only reason to have a website devoted to Macross mecha is to present the best quality scans and colored art possible. The M3 isn't quite there yet, but it's getting close. The next update is a massive upgrade to hundreds of images.

Sadly the images from the Macross New Horizon wiki are far too small to be of any use, but I appreciate your effort. For reference, all my work these last few years has been in 2,400 DPI scans or better. That creates individual line art images ranging from 5,000 to 10,000 pixels in their largest dimension (width or height). Once I complete a colored image, I build a scaled-down .gif for presentation on the M3 website (currently designed for standard 1080p). Most M3 images appear about 900 to 1,400 pixels in their largest dimension.
The main reasons I use such high resolution is because it makes for easier work, the level of detail is very high, and my images are prepared for the future when display resolutions go up to 4K, 8K or higher.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Mr March

[Valkyrie Driver]

Macross Chronicle's VF "genealogy" chart (Mechanic Sheet 01Q) offers something like a generational breakdown of VFs...

You and they are on more or less the same wavelength, though they put the VF-17 in with the VF-19/22/171 instead of the 11/14. If they had ".5" generations, the VF-17 would probably be one of those, as would the VF-1 Plus variants and so on, because they were built during one generation and adopted tech from another.

OK. I tried to list each fighter in each generation in order of introduction. So the VF-17 would have been a late gen 3 design, integrating a lot of gen 4 features, which were already in the works. I agree the VF-17 sort of defies categorization, and would be a gen 3.5 VF.

[Seto Kaiba]

The highest resolution (assumed scans) of the SW-AX1 Schneeblume I can find on the net are the one's used by Macross: New Horizon Wiki as art/filler for their fan-unit SV-37 used in the Macross:New Horizon MUSH. I have tried to contact them to ask about the art/scans, though have gotten no response to date.

Their SV-37 Raven page, if you want to look; http://www.macrossnewhorizon.org/mediawiki/index.php/SV-37_Raven

Oh, I can sort that out for you, GuardianGrey... because most of the tech specs on their wiki were written by me back when I had a character and staff position there. The SV-37 and SV-52 were what I cooked up in an afternoon or so when the game admins were asking for new designs to pad out their anti-government faction. I supplied the line art for the entry too, though only from a scan I'd found (I believe right here on MacrossWorld) years ago.

Sadly, the game's pretty much a dead duck now, so I'm not surprised you weren't able to get a response from the remaining staff.

After Reading Seto Kaiba's response on the ICS, I agree that it may not be able to go in, though how big is the IVCS?

Hard to say, but based on the art in the Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II book, I would say it's probably about the size of a man's torso, maybe larger.

Since you, Seto Kaiba, have brought up in prior posts that the VF-0kai Zeak may have been used as a technology test-bed of systems; perhaps the round-table decision to not include the ISC was made then. It was the Macross Galaxy Guld Work's choice to only use two engines & no ISC in the YF-27-5 Shaher Femail, so why could the same not be true of the VF-0kai? By the statistical data, the Zeak is almost a VF-25 in the shell of a VF-0A.

The Shaher Femail was deliberate misdirection on General Galaxy's part, though... my guess would be that they decided not to put an inertia store converter on the VF-0 either because the airframe wasn't compatible, or because they didn't want to put an insanely expensive piece of hardware in an aircraft belonging to a civilian famous for crashing more than anything else.

Tangent; I still would like to know were they found a VF-0A in deep space to start building the VF-0kai. Only logically thing I can think up is that it was Shin's (from Macross ZERO).

Could be a museum piece, or a replica VF-0 from a planet like Ouroboros... I doubt Shin's VF is anywhere anyone might find it.

I had looked at the Macross Compedium's pages for the VF-11 (for information on the MAXL kai) & the VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor, and noted that they use different identified turbines though both are supposedly from the VF-16.

Yeah, Macross the Ride had a few numbering inconsistencies like that... like the SV-52 Oryol being listed as having the same engine as a VF-17, which they then list as FF-2010X (should be 2100X). Pobody's nerfect.

Shoji Kawamori's other works are (to me) like the proof of concept crafts, in that (be it pre, or post, production) they are his visions for the VF we may see.

The Schneeblume in particular is more a "what if" for a design we've ALREADY seen... specifically, "What if you designed the VF-1 during the 2000s".

The Schneegans seems to have found its completed artistic expression in the YF-29 (a YF-29 in Schneegans colors can be seen in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-25 Messiah).

OK. I tried to list each fighter in each generation in order of introduction. So the VF-17 would have been a late gen 3 design, integrating a lot of gen 4 features, which were already in the works. I agree the VF-17 sort of defies categorization, and would be a gen 3.5 VF.

Yeah... pretty much. I think there are actually a couple really good .5 generation designs out there.

The VF-1 Plus (Block 6 and later) is arguably a Gen 1.5 VF, since the cockpit design and other refinements were nicked from the Gen 2 VF-4. The VF-4G's probably Gen 2.5 because of modernizations with tech from Gen 3. The VF-17's a sort of Gen 3.5 for reasons we already went into, and the VF-171 is arguably Gen 4.5 because of the tech it began to inherit from the 5th Gen AVFs (EX-Gear, etc.). The Macross Frontier novelization's VF-17F and so on may also qualify.

The ones that are impossible to quantify are the one-offs or limited production ones like the VF-0 Custom "Zeak" and particularly the VF-9E, a trial production Gen 2 design upgraded with Gen 4 hardware.

[JB0]

I doubt Shin's VF is anywhere anyone might find it.

True, largely because space is vast and there's no clues where he went. It'd be like finding a single grain of sand. Not on a beach. Not on all the beaches. Find one single grain out of all the grains of sand on Earth. Gotta search every park, playground, sandbox, garden bed, and hope it isn't caked into mud at the bottom of some lake.

MAYBE it's laying in plain sight out near Pluto and the crew of the Macross just barely missed it. Maybe it's near the core of the galaxy. orbiting the giant black hole of doom. Maybe it flew right into a star or bounced too close to a supernova.

Were this an animated feature, it would almost CERTAINLY be Shin's jet, because narrative demands it.

But as a video game, it pretty much CAN'T be Shin's, because drama that big needs to be in a mainline story.

(Fifteen years ago, as a game it would almost certainly be Shin's, just because it would create another tieback to the main setting. See also: Aegis Focker)

[GuardianGrey]

Okay, Mr. March, I see the numbers and agree. Dang, I did not know that many VF-4 Lighting III were made! O_o And here I thought the VF-4 was one of the least produced VF units (or the least animated of the ones seen on screen). So, having more VF-11 Thunderbolt II makes perfect sense, especially with so many different factories on frontier worlds & immigration fleets making them.

Okay, I did not know how big was BIG for the pictures, Mr. March. If I find any published work, I will allow my workplace to do the scans. I am employed currently at a book factory, and they have the ability to process jobs from physical to data files. So, I figure an industrial grade image scanner should work well enough.

Ah, okay then, Seto Kaiba. *chuckle* I had taken inspiration from the New Horizion game to do my own campaign, though died off after about a year of play.

What I feel you are saying about the character Hakuna Aoba, Seto Kaiba, is that he is the Vanquish Race's equivalent to Lanchpad McQuack. As such, I would agree with the roundtable deciding not to put an ISC in the VF-0kai, because no amount of his 'special operations' success would clear that record away.

Nice Star Wars reference there, JBO, & May the Spiritia be with you.

Tangent; Is there a connection to Spiritia Energy & Fold Waves? And as such, would it then make said energy the Macross Continuum's version of the Force?

--------------- Back to Topic ---------------

AVF Upgrade Candidate - How is it Done?

I was thinking on this after my post about the VF-11MAXL-kai and the VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor, how does one Update VF units?

The following is my logical musings on the matter, with VF units I feel fit each style and a real world example. This is only my opinion on this thought path.

There are, I feel, three ways to get a VF upgraded, Pro-shop, Factory Modification/Upgrade or New Production/Remanufactured.

Pro-shop route has the widest range of variables that not only can make/brake a 'new' unit, though that boils down to what the shop has as resources. The three main levels of Pro-shop seem to be, and may mix between:

• A small (though maybe well known) engineer/mechanic set that may do one (or two) off(s) that specialize in the field for that customization.
  Real life that fit this Profile; Shown on programs like Counting Cars, Fast & Loud, Street Outlaws (for illicit racing Mods) & Sons of Guns (they have done at least three different vehicle modifications in the series) are examples. The may not have the parts on hand, or the proper expertise to not have a technical difficult while doing the project, though they get the job done.
  VF that fit being built/upgraded this way; VF-0 "Angel" package, SDP-1 Stampede, VF-1++, VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor
• A small team of recruited engineers/mechanics that are brought together to do the customizations/modifications for a specific outcome that may include one or more units (rarely more than 5) produced. Though their work may spin off into a production.
  Real life that fit this Profile; shown in programs like American Chopper: The Series (Paul Jr. Designs), Overhauling (more than one modification for handicap) & Monster Garage (mix building to the eXtreme)
  VF that fit being built/upgraded this way; all the Sound Force VF kai units (the installation/modification of cockpit controls & all the light/sound equipment), VF-11B Nothung II
• A team of engineers/technicians recruited to make/upgrade a set of units (one at least, usually no more than 5) with the ability to call in representatives of the companies of the parts they are using, if not have new components made specifically for them (usually less than 72 hours of request) which may lead to production.
  Real life that fit this Prolife; Some high-end shops that do vintage restorations, Boeing Phantom Works, Lockheed Skunk Works (shown in Nova's episode Battle of the X-Planes)
  VF that fit being built/upgraded this way; VF-X-1, YF-19, VF-19ACTIVE, YF-22, YF-27-5 Shaher Femail, YF-29 Durandal among others that were YF &/or VF-X units.

Factory Modifications/Upgrades are as they say, modifications/upgrades that are done in a factory. This could be that the unit in production will get addition equipment/options as a 'special order' that the plant has in stock, or the diversion of a number of units for a "limited edition" modifications package. The other is that regional Manufacturing may have the units differ even if they are made by the same standard

Real life that fit this Profile; almost any car manufacturing company, for color, body options &/or engine/drivetrain. the B-25 Mitchell (C/D units only differed in manufacturing location)

VF that fit being built/upgraded this way' VF-9E Cutlass, VF-11D-kai (M7, at that time the Project: Fire team had standardized the light/sound/spiritia equipment), VF-11MAXL, the Sound Force kai units (base forms minus the light/sound equipment, though later the VF-11MAXL-kai due to unit destruction), VF-19C/MG21, VF-19EF

New Production/Remanufacturing is nothing new. As Valkyrie Driver pointed out with the F/A-18 Super Hornet & F-15SE Silent Eagle (funny, both are now Boeing products) are new production runs with the issues resolved to allow updates with newer features (like lower radar cross-sections, higher wing/frame stress levels newer equipment). This was dissimilar to the F-5E Tiger II & F-20 Tigershark production runs that had a wider gap between units.
The M1A2 Abrams is a remanufactured unit (there, to my knowledge, have been no new chassis/frames made since 1996), and is the only large scale remanufacturing of units I have heard of, other than book rebinding. Remanufacturing for updates has the advantages of;

• Recycling; less new materials used in the 'new' unit if the parts still are up to the required specifications.
• Tested Quality; with the parts that still met spec & have no faults, you know they should last.
• Lower Cost; with the recycling, the overall cost of new parts would make it be more expensive than when the unit was new, though cheaper than the units it is trying to be contemporary with. Also, nostalgia can be a very powerful (and problematic) thing.

The only noted Macross VF to get the Remanufactured Treatment (an possible limited new production run) has been the VF-1X Valkyrie Plus, at this point in time.

If your opinion differs, let it matter by having it being heard! DECULTURE!!

Edited March 22, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Seto Kaiba]

Okay, Mr. March, I see the numbers and agree. Dang, I did not know that many VF-4 Lighting III were made! O_o And here I thought the VF-4 was one of the least produced VF units (or the least animated of the ones seen on screen).

Nah, the VF-4 was one of the fighters-of-choice for the first generation of emigrant fleets... alongside the VF-1, VF-5, and VF-5000.

We even see them being used by training flights on Macross-7 at one point (in Trash).

Ah, okay then, Seto Kaiba. *chuckle* I had taken inspiration from the New Horizion game to do my own campaign, though died off after about a year of play.

The New Horizon game was fun while it lasted, nice to know someone got something out of it even after its demise.

What I feel you are saying about the character Hakuna Aoba, Seto Kaiba, is that he is the Vanquish Race's equivalent to Lanchpad McQuack. As such, I would agree with the roundtable deciding not to put an ISC in the VF-0kai, because no amount of his 'special operations' success would clear that record away.

Sort of, yeah... he's supposedly a great pilot, but he's always brought down by mechanical problems before he can finish the race due to his overtuned-to-the-point-of-uncontrollability fighter.

Tangent; Is there a connection to Spiritia Energy & Fold Waves? And as such, would it then make said energy the Macross Continuum's version of the Force?

Macross Chronicle does suggest there's a connection between the two, yes.

Spiritia is a form of higher-dimension energy associated with super dimension space, and song energy is supposedly kind of like a fold wave, yes.

(The vibe I get from the descriptions in Macross Chronicle is almost like humanity's connection to the warp in Warhammer 40,000... the human mind has an intrinsic connection to the higher dimension, and their mental and emotional state is reflected there, though super dimension space's native life appears to be benign, whereas the warp in 40K definitely fell under "Hyperspace is a scary place".)

[Valkyrie Driver]

(The vibe I get from the descriptions in Macross Chronicle is almost like humanity's connection to the warp in Warhammer 40,000... the human mind has an intrinsic connection to the higher dimension, and their mental and emotional state is reflected there, though super dimension space's native life appears to be benign, whereas the warp in 40K definitely fell under "Hyperspace is a scary place".)

This ^^ I lol'd. Interesting comparison. Maybe it could actually be true, given the Human race's propensity for gestalt reasoning, maybe wea are all connected somehow...O_o...

Okay, Mr. March, I see the numbers and agree. Dang, I did not know that many VF-4 Lighting III were made! O_o And here I thought the VF-4 was one of the least produced VF units (or the least animated of the ones seen on screen). So, having more VF-11 Thunderbolt II makes perfect sense, especially with so many different factories on frontier worlds & immigration fleets making them.

Okay, I did not know how big was BIG for the pictures, Mr. March. If I find any published work, I will allow my workplace to do the scans. I am employed currently at a book factory, and they have the ability to process jobs from physical to data files. So, I figure an industrial grade image scanner should work well enough.

Ah, okay then, Seto Kaiba. *chuckle* I had taken inspiration from the New Horizion game to do my own campaign, though died off after about a year of play.

What I feel you are saying about the character Hakuna Aoba, Seto Kaiba, is that he is the Vanquish Race's equivalent to Lanchpad McQuack. As such, I would agree with the roundtable deciding not to put an ISC in the VF-0kai, because no amount of his 'special operations' success would clear that record away.

Nice Star Wars reference there, JBO, & May the Spiritia be with you.

Tangent; Is there a connection to Spiritia Energy & Fold Waves? And as such, would it then make said energy the Macross Continuum's version of the Force?

--------------- Back to Topic ---------------

AVF Upgrade Candidate - How is it Done?

I was thinking on this after my post about the VF-11MAXL-kai and the VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor, how does one Update VF units?

The following is my logical musings on the matter, with VF units I feel fit each style and a real world example. This is only my opinion on this thought path.

There are, I feel, three ways to get a VF upgraded, Pro-shop, Factory Modification/Upgrade or New Production/Remanufactured.

Pro-shop route has the widest range of variables that not only can make/brake a 'new' unit, though that boils down to what the shop has as resources. The three main levels of Pro-shop seem to be, and may mix between:

• A small (though maybe well known) engineer/mechanic set that may do one (or two) off(s) that specialize in the field for that customization.

  Real life that fit this Profile; Shown on programs like Counting Cars, Fast & Loud, Street Outlaws (for illicit racing Mods) & Sons of Guns (they have done at least three different vehicle modifications in the series) are examples. The may not have the parts on hand, or the proper expertise to not have a technical difficult while doing the project, though they get the job done.

  VF that fit being built/upgraded this way; VF-0 "Angel" package, SDP-1 Stampede, VF-1++, VF-11C Thunderbolt Interceptor

• A small team of recruited engineers/mechanics that are brought together to do the customizations/modifications for a specific outcome that may include one or more units (rarely more than 5) produced. Though their work may spin off into a production.

  Real life that fit this Profile; shown in programs like American Chopper: The Series (Paul Jr. Designs), Overhauling (more than one modification for handicap) & Monster Garage (mix building to the eXtreme)

  VF that fit being built/upgraded this way; all the Sound Force VF kai units (the installation/modification of cockpit controls & all the light/sound equipment), VF-11B Nothung II

• A team of engineers/technicians recruited to make/upgrade a set of units (one at least, usually no more than 5) with the ability to call in representatives of the companies of the parts they are using, if not have new components made specifically for them (usually less than 72 hours of request) which may lead to production.

  Real life that fit this Prolife; Some high-end shops that do vintage restorations, Boeing Phantom Works, Lockheed Skunk Works (shown in Nova's episode Battle of the X-Planes)

  VF that fit being built/upgraded this way; VF-X-1, YF-19, VF-19ACTIVE, YF-22, YF-27-5 Shaher Femail, YF-29 Durandal among others that were YF &/or VF-X units.

Factory Modifications/Upgrades are as they say, modifications/upgrades that are done in a factory. This could be that the unit in production will get addition equipment/options as a 'special order' that the plant has in stock, or the diversion of a number of units for a "limited edition" modifications package. The other is that regional Manufacturing may have the units differ even if they are made by the same standard

Real life that fit this Profile; almost any car manufacturing company, for color, body options &/or engine/drivetrain. the B-25 Mitchell (C/D units only differed in manufacturing location)

VF that fit being built/upgraded this way' VF-9E Cutlass, VF-11D-kai (M7, at that time the Project: Fire team had standardized the light/sound/spiritia equipment), VF-11MAXL, the Sound Force kai units (base forms minus the light/sound equipment, though later the VF-11MAXL-kai due to unit destruction), VF-19C/MG21, VF-19EF

New Production/Remanufacturing is nothing new. As Valkyrie Driver pointed out with the F/A-18 Super Hornet & F-15SE Silent Eagle (funny, both are now Boeing products) are new production runs with the issues resolved to allow updates with newer features (like lower radar cross-sections, higher wing/frame stress levels newer equipment). This was dissimilar to the F-5E Tiger II & F-20 Tigershark production runs that had a wider gap between units.

The M1A2 Abrams is a remanufactured unit (there, to my knowledge, have been no new chassis/frames made since 1996), and is the only large scale remanufacturing of units I have heard of, other than book rebinding. Remanufacturing for updates has the advantages of;

• Recycling; less new materials used in the 'new' unit if the parts still are up to the required specifications.
• Tested Quality; with the parts that still met spec & have no faults, you know they should last.
• Lower Cost; with the recycling, the overall cost of new parts would make it be more expensive than when the unit was new, though cheaper than the units it is trying to be contemporary with. Also, nostalgia can be a very powerful (and problematic) thing.

The only noted Macross VF to get the Remanufactured Treatment (an possible limited new production run) has been the VF-1X Valkyrie Plus, at this point in time.

If your opinion differs, let it matter by having it being heard! DECULTURE!!

Technically if you were going to append a number to the end of the VF-11 Thunderbolt it would have to be III. Since there was the P-47 Thunderbolt, and the A-10 Thunderbolt II (aka, the Warthog).

A better comparison to what I envision an AVF upgrade to be is the Mitsubishi F-2. Which is derivative of the F-16 Agile Flacon upgrade. The Agile Falcon had 25% more wing area, an uprated engine, and better avionics. Some of that trickled down into the F-16C/D block 40 aircraft, while most all of it was used as the basis for the Mitsubishi F-2. The F-2 is the prime example of an airframe upgrade. The Agile Falcon was submitted as an entry for the Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) competition that the F-22 ultimately won.

[Andras]

Or the F16XL, with the stretched body, larger wing, greater ordnance capacity, and larger radius of action.

[GuardianGrey]

Oops, sorry there Valkyrie Driver, & you are right.

For some funny reason I though the VF-11 was called Thunderbolt II, & it is just called Thunderbolt. Though, I agree that it would be the III if they numbered it.

I also understand the design differences, Valkyrie Driver. The prior posting was how do the VF get their upgrades, so I did wander from topic, not so much on the design/decision of what gets the update/upgrade.

I did not know the F-16 Agile Falcon was an early ATF candidate.
Upon viewing of Wikipedia, I found that the F-16 LOAN (Low Observation Asymmetric Nozzle) was used test several aspects for exhaust/thrust for the JSF program.
I still feel the F-16 (original, F-16XL, as Andras said, or F-16AT that lead to the F-22's wing design) is better than the F-35 A/C units. And the F-35B (the only one that can VTOL) only has the advantage over the AV-8B in speed.

Edited March 22, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[GuardianGrey]

--------------- On Topic ---------------

I remember that Raptor One thought that the VF-4 Lightening III would be a good AVF update candidate.

With better understanding, I think that would be a good unit to get a reworking & upgrade to AVF standards.

Even though I consider the airframe a FUBAR design, I also said earlier that if it can go orbital and bring the pain, that is all that really counts.

The main reason I think that an update/redesign of the VF-4 is a good idea is for the same reasons I like VF-17 Nightmare & VF-22 Sturmvogel II; that they do not need the gun-pod to fight.

The Active stealth & ability to go orbital would be high on my list of additions, though the redesign would be to have the arms be more articulated.

On the potential of the three modes of upgrading that I said back in Post #216, this one I feel would benefit from the Remanufactured/New Production option with the number of craft out there to do so with

On what I know of real life airframes, and Seto Kaiba has pointed out with many of the candidates so far, it would need a structural redesign for most of the ideas I have to help the Arms & use the systems that it may not even look like the VF-4 anymore.

Tangent: I really wish I could draw better though I may have to take some time & draw out what I think some of the new &/or extreme VF update Ideas here might look like.

[Andras]

GuardianGrey:

I still feel the F-16 (original, F-16XL, as Andras said, or F-16AT that lead to the F-22's wing design) is better than the F-35 A/C units. And the F-35B (the only one that can VTOL) only has the advantage over the AV-8B in speed.

You know what I'd like to see? The F135 engine stuffed in the F16XL. The XL had a 24klb engine in the single seat and a 29klb engine in the 2 seater. The F135 makes 28klbs dry, and it has a better fuel economy (.7 vs .8sfc) So not only would it be M2+ on dry thrust, but it would have a cruise range of nearly 3000 miles. Slap some modern avionics and a WSO in the backseat and you'd have one heck of a strike fighter.

eta: apparently I wasn't as clear as I thought I was. NO afterburner for the F135 which limits thrust to 28k.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Andras

[Valkyrie Driver]

Bear in mind that you might have to redesign the entire airframe around that engine. Aircraft aren't quite the same as automobiles, you can't just rip out the old engine and put in a new one. There are air frame considerations. Just as in the real world, I expect it is the same in macross, simply because we would continue building aircraft in much the same manner as we do now.

[Sildani]

Yeah, remember what happened when the Israelis put a J79 into their Mirage III's to make the Kfir - the engine was a tad wider and ran hotter, so IAI had to install more cooling ductwork, widen and shorten the rear fuselage a bit, and reinforce the airframe. This was in addition to the other aerodynamic changes. The result was practically a new airplane that only resembled the Mirage.

So it will be for most re-engine jobs, I think.

[GuardianGrey]

I have to agree with Valkyrie Driver & Sildani on this.

I use to follow air-races, and placing a higher performance (& usually larger) engine into the frame was problematic at best. Since this may have lead to some of the crashes/failures, a standardization of equipment via regulations/rules was emplaced for safety.

With waiting for the development of an engine that has both the power & size you want, you still most likely need to reinforce the frame to handle the stresses that it places on, Besides Sildani's real life example with IAF Mirage III, there are three examples of this are in Macross R;

• VF-1++; To facilitated the ELA3000 turbines, the leg structure had to be cut/rebuilt/reinforced to handle the 630 kN output & the same was needed for the maneuvering verniers for said unit (why I feel this unit is a FUBAR version of a VF-1). That is major uptick compared to the 294 kN of the FF-2079J in the VF-1X, & massive overkill to the FF-2001D's 245 kN in the VF-1S.
  
• VF-0kai Zeak; The FF-3001A with 1,620 kN massively outstrip the 149 kN of the EGF-127 (which was a conventional turbine). The mix-build of lighter/stronger airframe (believe I read it was reduce to 20% of the original weight, though could be wrong) with the FF-3001A (which I feel are no bigger than the EGF-127, though only took 50 years to make) is why the VF-0kai looks so close to the original frame, though I would call it a new model based off an old one.
  
• VF-9E Cutlass; I feel the issues for this (mid-air explosions) were due to manufacturing flaws, The frame was originally designed to handle the FF-2019C with its 192 kN of thrust-output, not the 620 kN that is produced by the FF-2450C turbines. With the artwork of the VF-9 compared to the photos of the VF-9E (Macross R model) I am assuming the two turbine are similar in size (no bulging legs). So then (with logic that lacks many facts), the issue with the system has to be internal because of an oversight in the update/upgrade process (not all the turbines needs are met in the frame & was considered 'acceptable' for production). The result was the production & subsequent discontinuing of the E-series.

Edited March 29, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Andras]

F110

General characteristics

• Type: Afterburning turbofan
• Length: 182.3 - 232.3 in (463 - 590 cm)
• Diameter: 46.5 in (118 cm)
• Dry weight: 3,920 - 4,400 lb (1,778 - 1,996 kg)

F135

General characteristics

• Type: Afterburning Turbofan
• Length: 220 in (5.59 m)
• Diameter: 46 in (1.1684 m)^[41]
• Dry weight: 1,701 kg / 3,750 lbs

So, the F135 is actually smaller then the F110, which is the engine for the F16C/D and F16XL-2. W/o an afterburner section it will be shorter and lighter. TheC/D has the universal engine bay allowing either the F100 or the F110, so adapting a smaller F135 doesn't seem to be too much of an issue.

In addition, the F135 on dry thrust produces as much thrust as early F110s, or slightly less the later variants, so the frame would not need to be reinforced.

[Seto Kaiba]

Bear in mind that you might have to redesign the entire airframe around that engine. Aircraft aren't quite the same as automobiles, you can't just rip out the old engine and put in a new one. There are air frame considerations. Just as in the real world, I expect it is the same in macross, simply because we would continue building aircraft in much the same manner as we do now.

This is explicitly correct for Macross... substantial airframe redesign and reinforcement were necessary to adapt older airframes to use newer, more powerful reaction engines. Otherwise you'd run the risk of the airframe simply flying to pieces.

[GuardianGrey]

Um, Andras, the thrust-to-weigh ratio of the General Electric F110-GE-132 (largest of the series) is only 7.9.

That is weak compared to the 11.467 produced by the Pratt & Whitney F135 turbine.

Without reinforcements in the frame (or redoing the bulkhead designs for a new unit), the F-16XL would most likely suffer frame fatigue/failure.

With this, I can now fully understand what Seto Kaiba has been repeatedly saying with the VF-11.

The VF-11B's FF-2025G output is lower (at a 6.33 ratio), than the VF-11MAXL's FF-2099A (with a 10.51 ratio), & the rough difference of 0.9 ratio between the VF-1S & VF-1X had it needing factory reinforcements.

If I have seemed bull-headed to sticking to my view until I seen other evidence to disprove the facts that I base my opinions on, I apologized only for my ignorance until I have learned better.

For there should be tolerance of ignorance, though there is no excuse for arrogance & stupidity.

Edited March 29, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Andras]

You included the afterburner max thrust of 42klbs in that t/w ratio. At 28,000lbs dry thrust, F135 is roughly 7.46:1 on max military power, with the fuel pipes stripped out of the burner can.

Going go back to the VF11s, the -B models engines put out 28.5kg of thrust, the MAXL, 41,500kg, so of course there will be a need for reinforcement.

In the case of the F16XL/F135 though, you ignored the stipulation that there is no afterburner, and max thrust is slightly lower then the existing F110 engine.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Andras

[Valkyrie Driver]

The max thrust isn't the only thing to worry about, the engines dimensions might be bigger, or smaller than the original, so you have to take that into account.

[Sildani]

And the engine may run hotter, so needs more cooling/different materials for the airframe/enhanced fuel flow/different air intake speed and flow/changed access panels for maintenance...

[Valkyrie Driver]

If I'm right about reaction engines, they might work a lot like modern low bypass turbofans. Which would help with cooling, since the cold bypass air is forced around the hot engine. That wouldn't so much be the case in space, but in space the engines bleed drive plasma as exhaust.

[GuardianGrey]

Um, Valkyrie Driver, Andras did stat earlier that they were roughly the same physical size, with the F135 being physical lighter.

I may have to side with Sildani on the coolant lines, and the size difference of the two may not be enough to compensate for said if needed.

And, Andras, the F110 dry-thurst is a little a little over 17,000 lbf...

So, the F110-GE-100 (used in the F-16XL Unit 2) produces a dry-thrust of 17,100 lbf (76.3 kN) & with afterburner is 28,900 lbf (125 kn)

And the F135-PW-100 (in the F-35A Lightening II) has a dry-thrust of 28,000 lbf (124.6 kN) & using afterburner are 43,000 lbf (191.35 kN)

With these facts, the F135-PW-100 produces all most the same amount of thrust at full throttle, that the F110-GE-100 does with afterburners.

So, Andras, do you still think that putting any of the F135 series into a F-16XL is possible without redesigning the airframe to handle that torque?

They where originally going to make both the F-22 & F-35 without afterburner because they can super-cruse, many pilots voiced that could be disadvantageous to them in some situations. the planners left the option for afterburners in.

[CoreyD]

Here's a question, has anyone thought about how the engine weight differences affect cg? Surely a major cg change would require airframe adjustments as well, right?

[Seto Kaiba]

Here's a question, has anyone thought about how the engine weight differences affect cg? Surely a major cg change would require airframe adjustments as well, right?

That's a wide-open field of inquiry... because unfortunately the only VF engine we have a mass for is the FF-2001.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Um, Valkyrie Driver, Andras did stat earlier that they were roughly the same physical size, with the F135 being physical lighter.

I may have to side with Sildani on the coolant lines, and the size difference of the two may not be enough to compensate for said if needed.

And, Andras, the F110 dry-thurst is a little a little over 17,000 lbf...

So, the F110-GE-100 (used in the F-16XL Unit 2) produces a dry-thrust of 17,100 lbf (76.3 kN) & with afterburner is 28,900 lbf (125 kn)

And the F135-PW-100 (in the F-35A Lightening II) has a dry-thrust of 28,000 lbf (124.6 kN) & using afterburner are 43,000 lbf (191.35 kN)

With these facts, the F135-PW-100 produces all most the same amount of thrust at full throttle, that the F110-GE-100 does with afterburners.

So, Andras, do you still think that putting any of the F135 series into a F-16XL is possible without redesigning the airframe to handle that torque?

They where originally going to make both the F-22 & F-35 without afterburner because they can super-cruse, many pilots voiced that could be disadvantageous to them in some situations. the planners left the option for afterburners in.

I wasn't specifically addressing the F135 engine swap, and Mechanically speaking a half inch is pretty significant, as is 13 some inches at least. That would require a huge redesign to accommodate that engine.

Here's a question, has anyone thought about how the engine weight differences affect cg? Surely a major cg change would require airframe adjustments as well, right?

As Seto said, that's wide open. Though I'd tend to think that it would affect the fighter's center of gravity, because engines are such a critical component. (Look a the gun on the warthog, a jack stand is required to keep the aircraft level when the gun is removed for maintenance, just as an example).

[mickyg]

With all due respect, that's a HUGE gun! I see your point though.

[JB0]

This is explicitly correct for Macross... substantial airframe redesign and reinforcement were necessary to adapt older airframes to use newer, more powerful reaction engines. Otherwise you'd run the risk of the airframe simply flying to pieces.

I'm kinda sad we can't handwave it away with "because overtech" like so many other mechanical realities. It's just such an odd place for reality to make it's presence known.

[Sildani]

It's entirely possible that Overtechnology/space alloy/handwavium is so tough it could simply accept WHATEVER stresses and temperatures you'd care to introduce it to. OK then.

What OT CANNOT do - at least I think it can't - is create extra room where none existed before. So if you've got a new engine that's half an inch greater in diameter than the old, you need to re-engineer the airframe. There's no way around it, and so that's where reality must enter, and be explained and worked through, so we can keep suspending our disbelief about the rest of it.

It does for me, at least.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm kinda sad we can't handwave it away with "because overtech" like so many other mechanical realities. It's just such an odd place for reality to make it's presence known.

There are a bunch of little realistic touches like that scattered around here and there... though the solution is usually in the form of "because newer fighters were made with more advanced overtechnology materials than the previous generation".

Technology in Macross isn't static... humanity's grasp of the various sciences involved marches ever onward, just like it does in the real world.

It's entirely possible that Overtechnology/space alloy/handwavium is so tough it could simply accept WHATEVER stresses and temperatures you'd care to introduce it to. OK then.

Nah, there's always been a pretty definite set of limits on exactly what the material can take... particularly where g-force induced stresses are concerned.

What OT CANNOT do - at least I think it can't - is create extra room where none existed before. So if you've got a new engine that's half an inch greater in diameter than the old, you need to re-engineer the airframe. There's no way around it, and so that's where reality must enter, and be explained and worked through, so we can keep suspending our disbelief about the rest of it.

There are a bunch of things OTM can't cheat out of the way... but size constraints are one of the biggies when it comes to updating older airframes to the same technological standards as more modern ones.

The airframes that are usually mentioned as having been relatively easy to modernize are the ones that have lots of free space in the design... most notably the VF-14.

[GuardianGrey]

I know this has mostly been covered, though some physics still are adhered to in Macross.

I think sketchley pointed out over in the SDF-3 topic that overtechnology materials are nearly 10 time stronger than their conventional counterparts.

Now, with that said, 10 time the thickness/strenght of aircraft grade aluminum skin is most likely going to get punched through like tin-fold by a 30+mm round.

That also said, the frames might be stronger, though the engines are also putting out that much more force in thrust.

--------------- Slightly Back to Topic ---------------

Since we have been talking about the F-16XL so much, and I think more than once the subject of multiple turbines has also been broached; I found this over at the VF-Research.com site, titled R5-XS-4.

Sorry if it is large. first time trying image posting.

[Valkyrie Driver]

That's a pretty cool design you found Guardian. Can you link to where you found it? Nevermind I found the site, you just didn't hyperlink it.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Valkyrie Driver

[GuardianGrey]

Was attempting to use BBCode there, Valkyrie Driver, and for some reason it would not do the link option & I choose not to edit it back in.

The XS-4 is in the site's 'VF-Original' area, under 'Half Done' designs

_____________________________________________

From the translation (via translate.google.com) it seems to be a design utilizing the speed of three engines to overwhelm base defenses and take out radar and anti-aircraft systems. Also the three turbines may allow orbital operations.

From the image; I can see the shield is also the guns storage mount, the gun-pod has a clip-based reloading system and (assumed) spare clips are behind the shield. No noticeable missile bays (though the internal ones on the VF-19 & VF-11C/MAXL are not noticeable either).

I feel this is based of the VF-1 frame, for obvious reasons, though it did not take the option that Kawamori did with the VF-3000.

The spine/back of the VF being one part should facilitate the stresses of a third turbine easily, giving the unit the additional thrust without the need to make all new parts (if using VF-1/X surplus parts) for the frame.

The legs are free open for the conventional/confirmative Booster parts, while the back could possibly place a variety of FAST/Super packs there.

This is what I consider Soviet/Russian engineering, take something that is good and find a way to make it better without taking unneeded resources to make it so.

It has a solid fighter & GERWALK configurations, though the battriod is were I have questions. If I was reviewing this as a potential AVF design, I would not be enthused about is the wing seem to be a solid/fixed placement which would limit arm movement in battriod mode. The large single vertical stabilizer seems to also be a solid/fixed placement, which again could (and most likely would) cause issues in battriod mode.

I feel some pilots may not like the intake being right behind them (Eject and have a chance of getting sucked into a turbine? That is like putting a vertical launch ejector seat in a helicopter).

[Seto Kaiba]

I know this has mostly been covered, though some physics still are adhered to in Macross.

I think sketchley pointed out over in the SDF-3 topic that overtechnology materials are nearly 10 time stronger than their conventional counterparts.

Now, with that said, 10 time the thickness/strenght of aircraft grade aluminum skin is most likely going to get punched through like tin-fold by a 30+mm round.

You're off a bit there...

The old Sky Angels book puts forth equivalent armor values for the overtechnology materials used on the VF-1 that put their durability (or damage resistance) at 100 times that of a comparable thickness of rolled homogeneous steel armor. It was explosives that got a 10x improvement (in yield for weight, the AMM-1's 20kg warhead being equivalent to 200kg of TNT).

[Valkyrie Driver]

It has a solid fighter & GERWALK configurations, though the battriod is were I have questions. If I was reviewing this as a potential AVF design, I would not be enthused about is the wing seem to be a solid/fixed placement which would limit arm movement in battriod mode. The large single vertical stabilizer seems to also be a solid/fixed placement, which again could (and most likely would) cause issues in battriod mode.

I feel some pilots may not like the intake being right behind them (Eject and have a chance of getting sucked into a turbine? That is like putting a vertical launch ejector seat in a helicopter).

I agree about the battroid mode. The Rigid wings hanging out in the breeze does seem to be a hindrance. Also when you consider that VF's are typically modeled to take the form of naval fighters, with the ability to stow their wings. With the exception of the VF-17/171, though we never really see if they got a stowed wing configuration. That usually plays a role in the transformation mechanism.

If you look at most helicopter designs, they're designed to auto-rotate in the event of engine failure, only the eurocopter tiger has an ejection feature.

Also there have been many designs that had such an arrangement, with varying degrees of success. Not the place I'd have picked to put the intake, but I suppose I'll have to put forth my own design.