AVF Upgrade Candidates

[Zinjo]

Delta wing also gives it more tank space for reaction mass. It makes great sense for a space fighter.

That would explain Kawamori's choice not to have Variable Wings on the VF-19F-S line of fighters seen in M7. Space Optimization included more propellant tank space in the wings for the fighter.

Actually, another Kawamori-made instance of this popped into my mind earlier... the SW-XA1 Schneeblume concept from VF-Experiment. That had a (not official) backstory that it was a VF-1 that had been basically redone with modern materials and stealth design choices with materials and technology from around the time Project Super Nova was getting off the ground. (IINM, it shares tech with the VF-17).

Well it and the SW-XA1 were developed to be conventional fighter escorts for the VF-17. So no surprise they would share the same tech.

Little bit of notekeeping here...

According to all official trivia, we don't know how widespread or ultimately successful the VF-19 Excalibur was as the main variable fighter of the UN Spacy. It could have been very widely adopted and successful...or it could have been very limited and neglected...or something in between. All we do know officially is that the VF-19 Excalibur was adopted as the UN Spacy main variable fighter in 2041. We also know from official trivia that the mass production models VF-19F and VF-19S were designed specifically with stabilized engines and a simplified airframe that allowed average pilots to control it. The Macross 7 Fleet adopted the craft for mass manufacture in small numbers (and adopted it for special operations in Sound Force). And of course, the VF-19P Excalibur was seen deployed in Macross Dynamite 7.

Official trivia about the VF-171 Nightmare Plus indicates it was first flown in 2046 and was declared as the main force VF of the New UN Forces sometime in the 2050's (no specific date is given). The only thing we do know for certain is that the VF-171 Nightmare Plus had to be adopted as the main variable fighter sometime in the 2050's and before 2059, since by that year it was already known as the main variable fighter used by the New U.N. Spacy.

Outside of the official trivia, the Compendium states the following about the VF-19 Excalibur and the VF-171 Nightmare Plus:

So the reason we didn't see more of the VF-19 Excalibur was strictly a creative decision made for the Macross Frontier TV series audience; there is no official in-universe declaration for any explicit exclusion.

Actually didn't the VF-19 book describe the VF-19C as the most successful version of the fighter? It being an upgraded "A" made it very popular with colony worlds, IIRC.

Keep in mind as well, that by 2050 it appears that central control of the Galaxy Network from Earth had changed. It seems apparent that by 2059 the Galaxy Network had become a federation of autonomous member states as opposed to dependent worlds on a central government. So the VF-171 may well be the main frontline fighter for federal fleets or federally funded expeditions, but once an emigration fleet is underway, it seems like it is treated like an independent state. This enables it to develop and deploy its own fighters over time, as we saw with Frontier and Galaxy.

We also know, that by 2059, the federal government had developed the technology of the YF-24 fighter which was then transmitted to the members of the network. We don't know how many adopted the YF-24 as it was or how many modified the design like Frontier and Galaxy did. We also do not know how much tech was not transmitted to the network members.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Zinjo

[Mr March]

Actually didn't the VF-19 book describe the VF-19C as the most successful version of the fighter? It being an upgraded "A" made it very popular with colony worlds, IIRC.

Keep in mind as well, that by 2050 it appears that central control of the Galaxy Network from Earth had changed. It seems apparent that by 2059 the Galaxy Network had become a federation of autonomous member states as opposed to dependent worlds on a central government. So the VF-171 may well be the main frontline fighter for federal fleets or federally funded expeditions, but once an emigration fleet is underway, it seems like it is treated like an independent state. This enables it to develop and deploy its own fighters over time, as we saw with Frontier and Galaxy.

We also know, that by 2059, the federal government had developed the technology of the YF-24 fighter which was then transmitted to the members of the network. We don't know how many adopted the YF-24 as it was or how many modified the design like Frontier and Galaxy did. We also do not know how much tech was not transmitted to the network members.

Just remember the Master File books are not official continuity, so we have to be careful to reconcile MF trivia to be in-line with what is official. That being said, what you've noted about the VF-19C doesn't seem to support nor condem anything about the OVERALL production/adoption of the VF-19 Excalibur variable fighter. The "VF-19C" can still be the most successful "variant" of the Excalibur, but as a whole ALL Excalibur production could still be low...or high....or somewhere in between.

Yes, the decentralization is a known facet of the Macross universe circa 2059. Which means that plenty of the fleets - as autonomous governments/nations unto themselves - can go with almost any variable fighter they wish. It's possible that even in 2059, there may be fleets with 1,800 VF-11 Thunderbolts operating as the main variable fighter. Maybe some of the more successful fleets really embraced the VF-22 Sturmvogel II or the VF-19 Excalibur or the VF-17 Nightmare. Perhaps more frugal fleets are filled with VF-5000 Star Mirages.

Thinking about it, that broad diversity of variable fighters might have been part of the reason Kawamori and Co. created this "decentralization" of the UNG civilization. Perhaps it serves to preserve 25+ years of Macross variable fighter designs, indirectly stating that the various fleets might be fielding almost any of the valkyrie designs that have been made. Perhaps the VF-3000 Crusader or SDP-1 Stampede valkyries still operate in some fleets

[Seto Kaiba]

That sounds like the master-slave control architecture from FMP!. With some minor differences, but overall the same type of arrangement. I always though it would be better for a VF to operate that way in battroid mode. In which case elite units might be like rated ALOs (Air Liason Officers).

Not quite... the EX-Gear control system works more or less the same way as the controls on earlier models of VF, it's just a more precise version. The pilot isn't controlling the mecha's limbs directly with the throttle, joystick, pedals, and eye-tracking system, a sophisticated AI-based avionics package is then interpreting the various joystick-waggles and so on into a desire to "move in that direction" with a particular posture, and sorts out all the kinesthetics needed to make it happen. Manually controlling a limb for a particular maneuver is a delicate and rather complex business, as we saw in the original series and Frontier. The system uses a learning computer in the EX-Gear to make the controls as smooth and intuitive as if the pilot were wearing the fighter.

On the Arm Slaves of Full Metal Panic!, the semi-master slave motion trace system has the mecha replicating the motions of the operator's limbs inside the cockpit. The pilot's limbs are encased in armatures that record the motions of their limbs, and all that measured data goes to an assisted motion management program that translates the relative movements of the pilot's limbs into positioning commands for the mecha's limbs by amplifying them by a pilot-specified factor (the "bilateral angle"), so the pilot can move the mecha's limb a lot without having to make a similarly extreme gesture in the cockpit. (The preferred BMSA for an "ace pilot" in the series was 3.5, meaning every motion made in the cockpit is amplified by 3.5x... so if Sousuke raised his arm up 10 degrees, his M9 would raise its arm 35 degrees. That's why it's a "semi" master slave system... a full master slave system with a BMSA of 1 would be the Mobile Fighters in G Gundam.)

Well it and the SW-XA1 were developed to be conventional fighter escorts for the VF-17. So no surprise they would share the same tech.

Yep... and they allegedly (non-canonically) selected the VF-1 as the basis for it because of an abundance of practical performance data. It didn't pan out, however.

Actually didn't the VF-19 book describe the VF-19C as the most successful version of the fighter? It being an upgraded "A" made it very popular with colony worlds, IIRC.

Yes, but the Variable Fighter Master File books are not part of the official setting, and tend to be at least a little at odds with what's actually down in the animation-related materials (e.g. what the VF-19E is). That particular tidbit could still be true, in light of what's shown about the Macross Galaxy fleet using 'em in Macross the Ride tho... they produce their own locally "improved" version (the VF-19C/MG21) as a sort of "Take that!" aimed at Shinsei, which is used by Pegasus squadron.

Keep in mind as well, that by 2050 it appears that central control of the Galaxy Network from Earth had changed. It seems apparent that by 2059 the Galaxy Network had become a federation of autonomous member states as opposed to dependent worlds on a central government.

Er... you're probably thinkin' of the New UN Government there. The Galaxy Network was the inter-fleet and inter-planetary fold communications network that handled personal and business communications, mass media, etc.

Earth was still the de facto figurehead world of the New UN Government, though the government itself had become decentralized and Earth was deliberately withholding certain technological advances from the emigrant fleets and planets to maintain an edge.

So the VF-171 may well be the main frontline fighter for federal fleets or federally funded expeditions, but once an emigration fleet is underway, it seems like it is treated like an independent state. This enables it to develop and deploy its own fighters over time, as we saw with Frontier and Galaxy.

All told, the fleets seem to have had a pretty free hand in choosing how to arm their local New UN Forces garrisons... they could either produce (under license) the latest and greatest toys used by the central forces back on Earth (or monkey models thereof) which their factory ships could produce (the VF-19s and VF-22s in Macross 7); or they could use those blueprints to jumpstart a development program for a custom variant (VF-19C/MG21, VF-19EF) or an all-new fighter (VF-25, VF-27, YF-30).

Admittedly, international (interplanetary?) law requires them to disclose the existence and specifications of those weapons to the central New UN Government... which the Macross Galaxy heads decided to forego by deploying a fake prototype and keeping all their advances in the actual VF-27 secret.

[Valkyrie Driver]

So the Aerospace National Guard of Space Georgia might still be using VF-1's?

[Seto Kaiba]

So the Aerospace National Guard of Space Georgia might still be using VF-1's?

Depends... what time frame are we talking about?

Maybe 20 years after the first space war, I could see some less affluent emigrant fleets or planets using the service life extension program variants like the VF-1P and VF-1X, probably alongside similarly old VF-4's.

After 40-50 years, I think the VF-1 would probably have been completely retired by the military and relegated to civilian usage... like the VT-1C in the Macross Dynamite 7 OVA or the VF-1C in the novelization of Macross Frontier. I think the last thing we saw them being used for by the UN Forces was for shipbuilding circa 2047, not counting special forces variants.

[Valkyrie Driver]

It's kinda cool I guess that things are so decentralized in Macross, with each colony fleet having its own culture. Not much heed gets paid to the economics of said future, I guess I have a hard time figuring out how a decentralized economy would work. Each Colony would have it's own local economy, as well as ties to the larger economy as well, and how that affects the military budget for each fleet. I gotta wonder what the less wealthy colony fleets look like. All we ever see is the New Macross type ships, are they all similarly equipped starting out, or do they start differently? I would assume that there are short range and medium range colony missions in addition to the long range ones too right? A fleet has to have a general idea of where they're going right?

[Andras]

This is just off the top of my head, but I would think each colony fleet would be pretty self sufficient, at least until it settles on a planet. With the factory ships, they can self supply as long as they find suitable systems to strip mine.

Once they settle down on a planet, I could see them joining the larger Galactic economy for luxury items (which I suppose could also be delivered to the fleet while in transit too) and manufactured goods or specialty items they might not be able to produce locally. Entertainment also seems to be a cross colony item of commerce.

When a colony fleet launches with a full complement of fighters, I can't see them trying to do a full replacement of 2000 fighters if a newer type is developed. A few squadrons of an improved fighter seems to be an acceptable production run mid transit.

Once they settle down, maybe they start a low rate production run of newer fighters to bring numbers up, while storing the older fighters for emergencies or even second line militia use.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Andras

[JB0]

It's kinda cool I guess that things are so decentralized in Macross, with each colony fleet having its own culture.

It makes a lot of sense, too. As things get more spread out, it becomes much more difficult to exert any sort of central control. If a colony fleet says "No, I think the VF-19 is stupid and ugly and the VF-11 is just fine, thank you"... what is Earth going to do? Leave a stern message on voicemail?

Apparently, they have near-instantaneous real-time commmunications across most, if not all, the colonies and fleets(which makes me wonder about things), but actual physical transport is much slower. if you made someone REALLY mad, you could probably keep whoever was coming for you a few steps behind for a very long time by being creative with your folds.

All we ever see is the New Macross type ships, are they all similarly equipped starting out, or do they start differently?

Each fleet is unique. One could readily compare the Macross 7 fleet to the Macross Frontier fleet(With Frontier having significantly more "rural" area and provisions for full-size zentradi that were far lesss readily apparent in 7), but those fleets launched at much different times and Frontier's civilian area is "next generation", so to speak. But to my recollection(which has proven increasingly unreliable of late), each fleet's always had it's own "flavor".

I would assume that there are short range and medium range colony missions in addition to the long range ones too right? A fleet has to have a general idea of where they're going right?

The short-range fleets definitely need to know where they're going. I would assume their destinations were found by space probes.

Eden was a short-range colony mission, incidentally.

To my understanding, the long-range fleets DON'T know where they're going. They have to be fully self-sufficient precisely because they don't know when they'll find a habitable world. They've been given a rough direction to take through the cosmos. They just need to find a good planet somewhere in their wedge of space, land, get comfy, and let the rest of the galaxy know. Oh, and try not to blow the planet up, which has happened more often than you'd expect.

Edited February 21, 2015 by JB0

[Seto Kaiba]

It's kinda cool I guess that things are so decentralized in Macross, with each colony fleet having its own culture. Not much heed gets paid to the economics of said future, I guess I have a hard time figuring out how a decentralized economy would work.

When distances of a few hundred light years are apparently no more troubling than an international flight is today, odds are that the economy isn't THAT unfamiliar. From what Kawamori has said in interviews, many of the emigrant fleets and worlds are producing their own currency and are more or less self-sufficient economies, internally. "Cultural" exports like music and other media happen over the Galaxy Network (a fold communications analogue to the modern internet), and goods are shipped to and fro by interstellar shipping concerns like Tachyon Express and Birla Transport Co. Ltd.

After all, we're told point-blank that Strategic Military Services (SMS) was started by Richard Birla to protect his interstellar shipping business... and Luca rather bluntly tells Leon Mishima that he thinks the reason Birla is fascinated by the Vajra is because he plans to use fold quartz in his shipping business, and gain a virtual monopoly on interstellar shipping with a fleet of ships which can travel through fold faults. That wasn't actually his ulterior motive, but his interstellar shipping business was what gave him the riches that let him bankroll his private army (SMS) and the Frontier fleet.

I gotta wonder what the less wealthy colony fleets look like. All we ever see is the New Macross type ships, are they all similarly equipped starting out, or do they start differently? I would assume that there are short range and medium range colony missions in addition to the long range ones too right? A fleet has to have a general idea of where they're going right?

Each emigrant ship is supposedly a unique city-state in space... with its own layout, architecture, and so on. They're built off of the same basic design, but many of the ones we've seen have had their own distinctive touches added to the design, both in terms of architecture and technology. Macross-5 had Zentradi aesthetics and tech everywhere, for instance, while Macross-11 seemed to have a lot more highrise buildings and those massive heat fins on the side of the main dome.

As far as the types of emigrant fleet... there's not really a "medium" there. We know, from Kawamori's interviews and some print sources, that there were 100 or so short-range emigrant fleets that used Zentradi and other ships to locate and settle worlds that were discovered within a couple hundred light years of Earth. The long-distance emigrant fleets were on a much larger scale, for exploration thousands of light years from Earth... those are the fleets we actually see, built around Megaroad and New Macross-class ships with millions of civilians.

Whether the fleets know where they're going... that's something for the advance scouts to sort out, which is what the SDFN-type mass-production Macross-class ships were originally for, though later fleets used frigates and other ships. They don't know the destination they'll one day reach, but they at least know what's ahead of them so they aren't sailing blind.

[Mr March]

This is just off the top of my head, but I would think each colony fleet would be pretty self sufficient, at least until it settles on a planet. With the factory ships, they can self supply as long as they find suitable systems to strip mine.

Once they settle down on a planet, I could see them joining the larger Galactic economy for luxury items (which I suppose could also be delivered to the fleet while in transit too) and manufactured goods or specialty items they might not be able to produce locally. Entertainment also seems to be a cross colony item of commerce.

When a colony fleet launches with a full complement of fighters, I can't see them trying to do a full replacement of 2000 fighters if a newer type is developed. A few squadrons of an improved fighter seems to be an acceptable production run mid transit.

Once they settle down, maybe they start a low rate production run of newer fighters to bring numbers up, while storing the older fighters for emergencies or even second line militia use.

It's possible. Without any official word on the mater, one fan theory is as good as another. I would say that for me personally, I'm not sure if it would be more or less advantageous to manufacture the most advanced variable fighters for colonies/settled worlds or for deep space patrol/colonization fleets. There's plenty of reasons that could support either theory.

All colony fleets will need to replace their valkyrie complements eventually, as service life of the variable fighters will necessitate it. Now that doesn't necessarily mean all the VF-11 Thunderbolts in a New Macross Class colony fleet would be replaced with the latest variable fighters like the VF-19 Excalibur. Economic and manufacturing considerations may actually favor replacing old VF-11 Thunderbolts with newly manufactured VF-11 Thunderbolts, perhaps because it is more cost effective and easier to build them. However, I would imagine most NEW fleets that were assembled post-official adoption of a new VF would adopt that craft, as appeared to be the case with the VF-11 Thunderbolt for the New Macross Class colony fleets, even though the VF-4 Lightning III had been manufactured for many years prior to the VF-11.

The more I think about the Macross universe post-Macross Plus and pre-Macross Frontier, the more I feel like it's possible the VF-11 Thunderbolt was both the MOST widely adopted VF and the LAST widely adopted VF.

Macross Plus and Macross 7 both depicted the VF-11 Thunderbolt as ubiquitous in the UN Spacy. Mass numbers of the VF-11 are found operaitng in deep space patrol fleets (the fleet where Isamu serves during his asteroid battle in M+), they are found on colony bases (New Edwards Base on planet Eden in M+), they are on Earth for the Armistice Anniversary (M+ again), and they are manufactured by the thousands for the New Macross Class fleets (as shown throughout the M7 series). The VF-11 even appears so numerous that they either convert existing Thunderbolts or cheaply manufacture them for use as target drones in live fire tests of advanced aerospace craft (X-9 Ghost trials in M+). Of course, we know other colony worlds/fleets adopted different VFs as shown in M7 (the VF-5000 Star Mirage on planet Zola and the VF-14 Vampire within the Megaroad-13 fleet). But none of the other VFs are ever shown as widespread as the VF-11, even setting aside story bias and just looking at the background/setting.

When Macross Frontier was released, Kawamori and Co. wrote the new landscape of the human/zentradi civilization as increasingly decentralized. Fold communications and the Galaxy Network kept the New UN civilization connected and culturally/economically integrated. However, it's been written that the realities of the vast distances of open space demand each colony world/fleet operate as their own independent interstellar nations, each responsible for their own economy, manufacturing, defense, and governance. Such independent interstellar nations would ultimately choose radically different defense policies based upon their own unique needs. Even when the UN Forces adopted the VF-19 Excalibur as the main variable fighter (and later when the New UN Forces adopted the VF-171 Nightmare), it's likely the defense market is far too fractured that all these colony worlds/fleets would adopt the same fighter.

It's possible that population and economic growth could mean that in relative terms more VF-19 Excaliburs or VF-171 Nightmare Plus craft were built than VF-11 Thunderbolts. But even if we were to assume that is true, I think proportionally the newer VFs would have fallen behind the VF-11 Thunderbolt because they don't appear as widely adopted among all the independent colony worlds/fleets in this new structure of the human/zentradi civilization.

Anyway, just a thought

Edited February 21, 2015 by Mr March

[Andras]

I'm not sure if it would be more or less advantageous to manufacture the most advanced variable fighters for colonies/settled worlds or for deep space patrol/colonization fleets. There's plenty of reasons that could support either theory.

Well, a colony planet can't fold away from a threat, so IMO they'd want better fighters then a fleet that can Nope-off. Plus a colony would want to have trans-atmospheric fighters that can reach and fight in orbit, while a space fleet can pretty much get away with space optimized fighters.

AFAIK, VF-11s are not truly get to orbit & fight capable. Maybe with the aero boosters?

Are 171s supposed to be orbit capable?

Also AFAIK, 17s were the first. 5000s can with the booster back. 19s, 22s, and the YF-24 based 25-27-29-30 can.

[Seto Kaiba]

Plus a colony would want to have trans-atmospheric fighters that can reach and fight in orbit, while a space fleet can pretty much get away with space optimized fighters.

Unless, of course, they've got a decent amount of foresight... one reason the VF-25 was built as an all-regime fight rather than space optimized like the VF-19F.

AFAIK, VF-11s are not truly get to orbit & fight capable. Maybe with the aero boosters?

Are 171s supposed to be orbit capable?

Also AFAIK, 17s were the first. 5000s can with the booster back. 19s, 22s, and the YF-24 based 25-27-29-30 can.

Eh... that depends on what kind of orbit you're talking about.

Even the VF-1 Valkyrie was able to at least the edge of space over an Earth-type world without resorting to cheats like an escape booster. Boosters are all about getting the fighters up into space quickly and efficiently without having to ferry them up on a ship.

The VF-11 is the last fighter stated to need booster assistance to get into a satellite orbit, but exactly which fighter was first to be capable of doing it unassisted is a great big unanswered question. Most fighters seem to have the capability from thermonuclear reaction burst-turbine engines like those of the AVFs, VF-16, and VF-17 variants starting with the VF-17D. The VF-14 may have possessed the capability as well, considering its engines are almost as powerful as the VF-17D's and their thrust-to-weight ratios aren't that far off.

Pretty much every VF in the Macross Frontier-era seems to be orbit-capable, and the VF-171's initial type DOES have a similar engine to the VF-17.

[Valkyrie Driver]

That's an interesting perspective. Though, I suspect the target drones are much the same as they are in present day, old models that get a remote pilot system. I would suspect that the VF-11 drones we saw are (supposed to be) VF-11A/B's. I like the VF-11, and given it's role and size are comparable to the classic VF-1 makes it the successor to the original Valkyrie. I could imagine that even in 2050-2060 timeframe, the VF-11 might still be in production in some fleets. The VF-11 seems like the most worthwhile candidate to be brought up to AVF specs. .

[Seto Kaiba]

That's an interesting perspective. Though, I suspect the target drones are much the same as they are in present day, old models that get a remote pilot system.

Er... yes and no.

We actually see both sides of the coin in Macross Plus. On Eden, the UN Forces at the New Edwards test flight center are shown testing the YF-21 against a dedicated, purpose-built target drone. Macross Chronicle literally identifies it ONLY as "target drone". Earth, on the other hand, is shown testing the Ghost X-9 against unmanned VF-11's (I vaguely recall reading somewhere that all those drones were the initial VF-11A type that had been produced in very limited numbers).

I'd imagine the dedicated target drones are probably a lot cheaper, and therefore a lot easier to find, than drone-converted VFs (which are surprisingly rare in the setting).

I like the VF-11, and given it's role and size are comparable to the classic VF-1 makes it the successor to the original Valkyrie. I could imagine that even in 2050-2060 timeframe, the VF-11 might still be in production in some fleets. The VF-11 seems like the most worthwhile candidate to be brought up to AVF specs. .

That its size is similar to the classic VF-1 is probably an argument against it being an entirely viable AVF upgrade candidate. It's said (in connection with the MAXL variant) that the VF-11 needed to have the airframe strengthened to take the additional thrust of new engines about 2/3 as powerful as what's on most AVFs, and being so darn small would make its armament rather lighter than what most AVFs carry. It wouldn't have nearly as much staying power or carrying capacity as your average AVF (and, IIRC, something about pinpoint barriers is said to screw with the VF-11's sensors on the Thunderbolt Interceptor).

If one thing can usually be said for AVFs, it's that they're quite a bit bigger than the designs of the first space war and its aftermath.

I'd think the logical choice would actually be the VF-14 Vampire. The airframe's stressed for about twice the engine power that the VF-11's was (in the same ballpark as the VF-17D), and it's said to have a LOT of free space inside the airframe that can be used for upgraded or optional hardware.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[Valkyrie Driver]

I meant to refer my comment on drones specifically to the VF-11 drones. Drone converted fighters are rather rare these days too. We also have purpose built target drones as well.

I see your point about the lack of interior space for the VF-11 being smaller. I'm not a big fan of aircraft that have all of their weapons strictly internal. It's weapon limiting. If you need to go slick and stealthy you can, but after the first day, you need more stores than the internal bays allow. So I imagine a retrofit with internal bays on the vf-11 would be much like the F-15SE. Engine technology is always improving, so I suppose they might be able to increase the engines output without increasing the size. It might not be a full upgrade, but it would be closer to AVF specs.

[Andras]

The funny thing is in Mekton, the drones are more expensive then piloted mecha, because pilots don't cost CPs. Drone AIs are expensive!

Even a basic remote piloting system is cost neutral for the drone, but it increases the cost of the mothership.

Also, Boeing is busy knocking out QF-16s these days as there are no more QF-4s. The QF-16s are actually combat capable IIRC.

[Seto Kaiba]

I see your point about the lack of interior space for the VF-11 being smaller. I'm not a big fan of aircraft that have all of their weapons strictly internal. It's weapon limiting.

Yeah, but for the period (in Macross history) it's appropriate enough... the Project Super Nova designs, the genesis of the Advanced Variable Fighter, were both trying to internalize their armaments as much as possible in the interests of stealth. Later advances in active stealth technology loosened the impact of external ordinance, but that didn't stop most of 'em from stacking on the internalized armaments.

My concern, relative to airframe size, was more about getting the additional systems that are part of the AVF technological "tier" into the airframe and the more limited fuel capacity. Since most of the emigrant fleets would be principally concerned with space combat, operational endurance for patrols and combat would definitely be a high priority.

If you need to go slick and stealthy you can, but after the first day, you need more stores than the internal bays allow. So I imagine a retrofit with internal bays on the vf-11 would be much like the F-15SE. Engine technology is always improving, so I suppose they might be able to increase the engines output without increasing the size. It might not be a full upgrade, but it would be closer to AVF specs.

Depends what fighter you're talking about there... without resorting to Super Packs, several of the larger AVFs can equal or exceed the carrying capacity of the VF-11 and similar small VFs when it comes to ordinance just using their internal bays. The VF-14 and VF-22 are both on that list... partly due to their relatively large size leaving room for significant amounts of ordinance to be jammed in there.

[Valkyrie Driver]

The VF-22 is already in that AVF category isn't it? The VF-14 was a much earlier design, contemporary of the VF-5000 right?

[Seto Kaiba]

The VF-22 is already in that AVF category isn't it? The VF-14 was a much earlier design, contemporary of the VF-5000 right?

Yes, the VF-19 and VF-22 were the first production AVFs.

The VF-14 is a contemporary of the VF-11... it was the competing design that lost out to the VF-11 in the selection of the next main fighter. That didn't stop it from getting a fair bit of use, though. There's something that looks like a VF-14 visible in the background at New Edwards in Plus, and the Varauta system's UN Forces used the VF-14 as well... until the Protodeviln took over and it became the basis for the enemy fighters in Macross 7. It was HUGE compared to the VF-11, and it had engines that were on par with the AVF-level engines in the VF-17D. (IIRC, Max also flew one in Macross M3).

[Valkyrie Driver]

Ah. But with more mass the VF-14 can't reach escape velocity can it? The VF-17 was the first to do so right?

[Seto Kaiba]

Ah. But with more mass the VF-14 can't reach escape velocity can it? The VF-17 was the first to do so right?

We don't really know what the first VF to be capable of reaching satellite orbit unassisted was.

The original VF-17[A,B,C] probably couldn't, since its engines are a LOT weaker than the FF-2100X engines that the VF-17D and later variants got... but there are other, earlier designs that also had AVF-level engine power. The VF-14 was only 750kg heavier than the VF-17D, and the VF-17D's engine thrust was greater by only about 5%, so it's not inconceivable that a VF-14 could've done it. We don't know what the VF-16 weighed, but it had engines with an output of over 400kN (at least 50% greater than a VF-11's), which were orbit-capable when installed in a specially-reinforced VF-11MAXL (Mylene's).

[Andras]

Well as long as a fighter can maintain 2+gs it'll eventually hit orbital velocity. The question is will it run out of reaction mass before hitting 8kps (LEO velocity). The Macrosspedia says the VF-14 can hit 8.33 gs unloaded, so if that is halved due to fuel, it'll need to burn for 170-180seconds assuming it starts around Mach3 (1000mps) while air-breathing.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well as long as a fighter can maintain 2+gs it'll eventually hit orbital velocity. The question is will it run out of reaction mass before hitting 8kps (LEO velocity). The Macrosspedia says the VF-14 can hit 8.33 gs unloaded, so if that is halved due to fuel, it'll need to burn for 170-180seconds assuming it starts around Mach3 (1000mps) while air-breathing.

The fighters with thermonuclear reaction burst-turbines and stage II thermonuclear reaction turbines on AVFs, VF-16, and VF-17D and later all seem to have no difficulty reaching orbit swiftly and efficiently. The dangling question is whether the VF-14's engines, which are normal thermonuclear reaction turbines almost as powerful as the VF-17D's FF-2100X burst turbines, are can achieve the same feat without eating their entire fuel supply. (Whether it's a raw thrust thing or an efficiency thing.)

(If the Variable Fighter Master File series is any indication, fuel weight on a VF is actually close to negligible... the books assert reaction engines use hydrogen slush for fuel, which weighs roughly 85 grams per liter. Volume 2 of the VF-1 book asserts a VF-1 fuel volume of 1,410 liters, which comes out to a hair under 120kg, or about 264.5 pounds. Even with the massively expanded Super Pack tanks, the VF-1's still only carrying 455kg/1000lb or so of fuel.)

Edited February 25, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[VF-15 Banshee]

But don't VF's use the surrounding atmosphere for fuel... er, when they're in an atmosphere of course. Or is my mind playing tricks on me? I would assume that would help at least a little in the lower, thicker atmosphere.

And what's this VF-16? I've never heard of it?

[Mr March]

The VF-16 is mentioned in passing in the Macross official trivia for the VF-11 Thunderbolt. Apparently, the VF-16 engines were installed to power the original VF-11MAXL Thunderbolt, the variant VF-11 from which that fugly VF-11MAXL Custom was built (that thing Mylene piloted in Macross 7). I don't believe anything more is ever written about the VF-16.

VF-11MAXL: Version with FF-2099A engines identical to the VF-16's, strengthened overall structure to tolerate the engines' thrust, and redesigned modified delta wing for increased fuselage strength and aerodynamic characteristics. A limited number of these special reserve fighters exists, all manufactured to order by the pilots.

I think plenty of variable fighters exist that we don't see, mostly because Kawamori simply didn't draw them. But you have to figure that's the case since the numbers are all vacant. I mean we go from VF-1 Valkyrie to VF-4 Lightning III...so what about the VF-2 and the VF-3? The other VFs in the empty gaps would be the VF designations VF-5, VF-6, VF-7, VF-8, VF-10, VF-12, VF-13, VF-15, VF-16, VF-18, VF-20 and VF-23. So quite a few

Edited February 25, 2015 by Mr March

[Seto Kaiba]

But don't VF's use the surrounding atmosphere for fuel... er, when they're in an atmosphere of course. Or is my mind playing tricks on me? I would assume that would help at least a little in the lower, thicker atmosphere.

Not as fuel, per se... a thermonuclear reaction turbine engine uses intake air as propellant (and coolant) in atmospheric flight. Instead of burning hydrocarbons, the reaction turbine engines use heat from the thermonuclear reaction power system to heat intake air and provide thrust. In space flight, the engines bleed off plasma from the reaction and use it as propellant in an ion engine system (which will seem awfully familiar if you're a Star Trek fan).

The VF-16 is mentioned in passing in the Macross official trivia for the VF-11 Thunderbolt. Apparently, the VF-16 engines were installed to power the original VF-11MAXL Thunderbolt, the variant VF-11 from which that fugly VF-11MAXL Custom was built (that thing Mylene piloted in Macross 7). I don't believe anything more is ever written about the VF-16.

Thus far, I believe all we've seen of the VF-16 is the usage of its engines in VF-11 variants... the VF-11MAXL, MAXL Custom, and Thunderbolt Interceptor supposedly all use VF-16 engines.

[Valkyrie Driver]

You also should consider with those vacant number that those may have been used on early prototypes that lost their respective competitions. Maybe there were 3 submissions for what would have been the VF-1, and those were arbitrarily given the designations YF-1, 2, 3, and prototype YF-1 won the competition. (The VF-0 doesn't count, since I consider it to be a technology demonstrator. Though it is the actual and spiritual predecessor). Looking to real life examples, we go from f-16 to f-18. There was a YF-17, that was the F-16 competitor. The design was changed enough to become different and was adopted as the F-18 for the Navy's needs. I'm also assuming that Kawamori is using the Unified naming scheme that was adopted in the late 1950's (previously the Navy and Air Force had different naming conventions for fighter designations). You wouldn't reuse a number that had been assigned to a prototype.

We see this with the YF-21 and VF-22. The VF-22 was changed enough from the prototype to be a different aircraft, and since it was different they had to use a new number.

These days we try to avoid using the same numbers for things that are different. Even when the Type classification is different.

[Seto Kaiba]

You also should consider with those vacant number that those may have been used on early prototypes that lost their respective competitions.

We actually know what occupies most of those slots from various descriptions scattered in art books and so on... it's about a 50-50 split between prototypes and low-profile or economized production models. There are a few numbers that aren't assigned, but most of the "gaps" are filled by:

• VF-X-2, which was a rival prototype to the VF-1 that adopted more overtechnology, but was passed over for production.
• VF-X-3, rival prototype to the VF-X-4 which was lost in the Zentradi's orbital bombardment, with nothing remaining except a picture and one part that had been contracted out to a plant in space.
• VF-5, a production model light VF for space warfare built from 2015 to 2023 and used on some of the Megaroad emigrant missions, notably has sea landing capability.
• VF-6, a production model light VF for planetary defense designed to be inexpensive to produce.
• VF-7, same general profile as VF-6.
• VF-X-10, a prototype for what became the VF-9 Cutlass. Originally from Kawamori's Advanced Valkyrie design series, adopted into the Macross 'verse in Macross Chronicle.
• VF-15, a production(?) model VF which was the first design to incorporate a biological anti-g boost system.
• VF-16, a production(?) model VF, the engines of which were appropriated for the VF-11MAXL and Thunderbolt Interceptor.
• YF-26, a Project Triangler prototype (VFMF) developed by Macross Olympia, and subsequently rejected in favor of the VF-25.

That leaves only 8, 10, 12, 13, 18, 20, 23, and 28 as "empty" numbers in the fighter sequence... and I'd wager 8, 12, and 13 were assigned to prototypes from around the Project Nova period, when it seems like Shinsei and General Galaxy were releasing a new fighter every few years. 18 was probably reserved for a rival design to the VF-17 (or perhaps the complimentary fighter that the SW-XA1 non-canon-ly was). 20 was probably reserved for a further refinement of the YF-19 if development required it. 28 was probably another fleet's YF-24 derivative.

That just leaves 23 hanging out there without an explanation or a probable explanation... stuck between the first and second generations of AVFs.

I'm also assuming that Kawamori is using the Unified naming scheme that was adopted in the late 1950's (previously the Navy and Air Force had different naming conventions for fighter designations). You wouldn't reuse a number that had been assigned to a prototype.

Yeah, he does seem to be modeling things on the 1962 tri-service designation system...

[Mr March]

Well, I was talking about what we see (like I said, what has been drawn by Kawamori) rather than trivia about the designations. But you're right, many of the "empty gap" VFs could be almost anything, from cancelled production lines to prototype-only craft. What is written about most of the unseen VFs is so little, it's clear no one bothered with any kind of effort or serious thought about any of the craft. It's likely that if anyone did decide to embellish upon these unseen VFs in some future Macross product (like another reprint of the Chronicle), the writers would likely overwrite/ignore whatever scraps of trivia currently exist

[Zinjo]

It is interesting that the NUN Government did not follow in the footsteps of the PC Stellar Republic which appeared to have a centralized government which controlled a large portion of our galaxy. In order to do so they had to genetically engineer billions of giant soldiers and mass fleets of millions of ships to control the territory. One might argue that level of control may have contributed to its ultimate demise.

NUN seems to be utilizing a federation of autonomous states, similar to how the US system of government was initially envisioned. It is probably less cohesive, but the NUN seems to be trying to find a balance between general control and individualistic self determination of its members. Much like the NATO alliance, the member worlds sign on to a common purpose and set of obligations, but are not bound to full centralized control.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Zinjo

[Valkyrie Driver]

The gaps are kinda cool in that they could be anything. Honestly I'm a bit surprised that we haven't seen any single engine VF-designs. It could be done easily enough, probably easier to design a single engine VF than it was to design the alternate modes for the VF-4. We have seen twin (obvious) engine VFs, and quad engine VFs, but no single or tri-engine (the VF-0/ghost combo doesn't count...) VF's. I wonder why?

Going back to an earlier comment:

But don't VF's use the surrounding atmosphere for fuel... er, when they're in an atmosphere of course. Or is my mind playing tricks on me? I would assume that would help at least a little in the lower, thicker atmosphere.

Not as fuel, per se... a thermonuclear reaction turbine engine uses intake air as propellant (and coolant) in atmospheric flight. Instead of burning hydrocarbons, the reaction turbine engines use heat from the thermonuclear reaction power system to heat intake air and provide thrust. In space flight, the engines bleed off plasma from the reaction and use it as propellant in an ion engine system (which will seem awfully familiar if you're a Star Trek fan).

So are the engines producing a series of thermonuclear explosions in a reaction chamber (ignition chamber/burner can)? I was under the impression that the intakes collected hydrogen (stellar and atmospheric, like a magnetic bassard ramscoop), to use in the reaction turbines. They would still need onboard fuel, but the collected hydrogen would be used to supplement the onboard supply. That's how I imagines it worked anyway...

[Mr March]

It is interesting that the NUN Government did not follow in the footsteps of the PC Stellar Republic which appeared to have a centralized government which controlled a large portion of our galaxy. In order to do so they had to genetically engineer billions of giant soldiers and mass fleets of millions of ships to control the territory. One might argue that level of control may have contributed to its ultimate demise.

NUN seems to be utilizing a federation of autonomous states, similar to how the US system of government was initially envisioned. It is probably less cohesive, but the NUN seems to be trying to find a balance between general control and individualistic self determination of its members. Much like the NATO alliance, the member worlds sign on to a common purpose and set of obligations, but are not bound to full centralized control.

That would be incredibly awesome and interesting world building to my adult mind, but I don't believe any of that is in the official fiction. If some is, it certainly wasn't detailed extensively in any satisfying sort of way. More's the pity.

I think the New UN civilization remains cohesive despite it's decentralization and vast diaspora because of the collective sense of community following the near-annihilation of the human species. Nothing else really makes sense, if we ignore that Macross takes a very simplified view of it's political/cultural/social world building. Just examining the industrial, economic, scientific, technological and cultural distinctions, it's clear almost any colony world or fleet can be just as key as Earth. The colony worlds and fleets seem to have no problem building anything, they are all self-sufficient, and each appears capable of producing their own cultural megastars (like Eden's Myung/Sharon Apple, or Macross 7's FIre Bomber). Perhaps variable fighter technology and the Factory Satellites are all controlled and produced by the NUN Spacy, so maybe that breeds a certain dependency among the colony worlds/fleets, but I doubt access is that tightly contained. So I think it's ultimately the very strong sense of community and survival the people feel that maintains the cohesion of the NUN civilization.

The gaps are kinda cool in that they could be anything. Honestly I'm a bit surprised that we haven't seen any single engine VF-designs. It could be done easily enough, probably easier to design a single engine VF than it was to design the alternate modes for the VF-4. We have seen twin (obvious) engine VFs, and quad engine VFs, but no single or tri-engine (the VF-0/ghost combo doesn't count...) VF's. I wonder why?

Given that variable fighters are all aerospace craft that are designed for use in space every bit as much as planetside, I think redundancy is a very important safety consideration for building all variable fighters with a second engine. Twin engine design is popular today for that very reason; add in the far more extreme hazard of travelling through the vacuum of space and the need for redundancy in variable craft is all that more compelling.

[Valkyrie Driver]

That's a fair point. Still, I think that a Single engine VF, would be cost effective and useful for a small colony world that doesn't really need to worry about patrolling in space so much. I do agree that for a main line fighter it's necessary, due to the consideration of being in deep space. But in atmo, or intra system patrols, maybe not as necessary. It'd be a little harder to do than twin engine especially if it were to become a toy. Maybe I'll try my hand at designing one as a homebrew, and present it to the community. Nothing says that we can't show some creative initiative.

The comments about the world building are really cool. It is a shame that the socioeconomic and political facets of life haven't seen a lot of detailing in universe. Frontier did a little bit within the frontier fleet, but that really only went as far as fairly shallow subplots. Maybe in the next macross production we could see more of the interaction between the Military-Industrial complex and government, in the backdrop of interspecies and interstellar conflict, and told from the perspectives of the central characters. Would be kinda cool to see a bit more cerebral intrigue from Macross.

[JB0]

So are the engines producing a series of thermonuclear explosions in a reaction chamber (ignition chamber/burner can)?

Heat exchanger. Just like a modern fission power plant, that uses a heat exchanger to boil water and spin a turbine, the Valk uses a heat exchanger to pull heat out of the fusion reactor and superheat some form of reaction mass.

I suppose electric heaters could also be used, but why?

I was under the impression that the intakes collected hydrogen (stellar and atmospheric, like a magnetic bassard ramscoop), to use in the reaction turbines. They would still need onboard fuel, but the collected hydrogen would be used to supplement the onboard supply. That's how I imagines it worked anyway...

They aren't going near fast enough for a bussard scoop. And even if they were, the huge magnetic field needed would be a hazard to everyone in the area in a dogfight. You have to scour a LOT of space to get a meaningful amount of hydrogen.

While I suppose you COULD use onboard hydrogen, it seems like there should be a better option. Like water. It's stable, readily available in large quantities, easy to handle in a broad range of temperatures, and dense. Boil it to steam and spray it out the back. If you do this with the verniers too, you avoid the traditionally nasty substances associated with them*.

But I am not a rocket physicist.

*Though simplicity dictates that the verniers are PROBABLY still using hydrazine or some overtech monopropellant. Verniers would have to be heated electrically, which will be less efficient than a heat exchanger. And they have to have their own fuel tanks separate from the main engines ANYWAYS, just due to the plumbing problems inherent to a variable fighter. So why rube goldberg it up when you can just fill a tank with hydrazine and spray it across a metal screen?

There's something to be said for simplicity, even in a machine as overengineered as a Valkyrie.

[Mommar]

Given that variable fighters are all aerospace craft that are designed for use in space every bit as much as planetside, I think redundancy is a very important safety consideration for building all variable fighters with a second engine. Twin engine design is popular today for that very reason; add in the far more extreme hazard of travelling through the vacuum of space and the need for redundancy in variable craft is all that more compelling.

Given they're all aerospace technically the engines should be in triplicate then.