AVF Upgrade Candidates

[Valkyrie Driver]

It's been a while since I've been on here, just moved into a new apartment and I started unpacking my Macross Collection. But I've always loved this community, so I'm back.

If you were to pick a design from any Macross product (Show, movie, game etc...) To bring up to Advanced Variable Fighter specs, which one would you choose?

I'll kick it off. I'd probably choose the VF-0, since it was the first, UN Varibale fighter to see deployment, It seems logical. That and the fact that it has the original feel with the more modern design cues, it kinda begs to be brought up to spec.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Valkyrie Driver
Thread Title Changed

[Seto Kaiba]

It's been a while since I've been on here, just moved into a new apartment and I started unpacking my Macross Collection. But I've always loved this community, so I'm back.

If you were to pick a design from any Macross product (Show, movie, game etc...) To bring up to Advanced Variable Fighter specs, which one would you choose?

I'll kick it off. I'd probably choose the VF-0, since it was the first, UN Varibale fighter to see deployment, It seems logical. That and the fact that it has the original feel with the more modern design cues, it kinda begs to be brought up to spec.

's actually happened to a few VFs in Macross on a one-off basis officially... principally in Macross the Ride.

Mind you, it usually bears a somewhat realistic consequence in that upgrading an old design to performance levels well above what the designers actually had in mind makes it awfully unstable. Examples include Hakuna Aoba's VF-0 Kai "Zeak", his VF-1X++ Valkyrie Double Plus, and Nicolas Berthier's VF-9E Cutlass. The VF-1X++ was so unstable that "one mistake could turn the airframe into a fireball", and the VF-9E was a planned production model that was scrapped because it had a disquieting habit of exploding in midair.

Other attempts to upgrade older VFs to AVF levels don't seem to have had quite so many catastrophic issues... like the Anthony Clemens' VF-11 Thunderbolt Interceptor (which had a VF-16 engine and barrier, at the cost of sensor issues), or the VF-0 Kai "Zeak" (which was a VF-0A airframe upgraded with modern materials and VF-25 engines).

[Valkyrie Driver]

I guess I wasn't as clear as I wanted to be. I'm not talking about cramming more powerful engines in the airframe, since doing so would naturally overstress the airframe, I meant taking an old design and manufacturing from the ground up, all new, accounting for higher stress tolerances, without compromising the original design aesthetic.

Think F-15SE Silent Eagle. It was built from the ground up to implement those design changes, while using a preexisting design, to cut R&D costs. That's sort of the idea I had.

Still think the VF-0, would be awesome, though the VF-1 would be a good choice too, given it's small size. Bigger ain't always better.

[sketchley]

I guess I wasn't as clear as I wanted to be. I'm not talking about cramming more powerful engines in the airframe, since doing so would naturally overstress the airframe, I meant taking an old design and manufacturing from the ground up, all new, accounting for higher stress tolerances, without compromising the original design aesthetic.

Haven't you heard of the VF-X++ from Macross The Ride?

http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/Stats/Statistics/VF-1/VF-1X++.php

(Note: not Hakuna's subsequent upgrade of that.)

[Raptor One]

For me there is only one answer: The VF-9 Cutlass.

Although the VF-4 would be cool to see in a modern context as well

[Valkyrie Driver]

I was vaguely aware of the existence of Macross the ride. I've been away for a while, focusing on other hobbies and important things. Still catching up.

[JB0]

Has to be the SDP-1 Stampede Valkyrie. I have an unhealthy love of that abomination.

[Mr March]

Since Macross is fiction, technically this kind of modern AVF re-manufacturing could be done for ANY valkyrie in the Compendium. Anything from Macross Zero to the Macross Plus/Macross 7 era would be game; there'd be no limits or constraints unless the fiction was written as such.

I suppose the one constraint that is already mentioned and is part of the Macross fiction would be an economic constraint. In which case, it would make sense for an AVF Upgrade in the style of a F-15SE Silent Eagle to be proposed for a similar "workhorse-like" valkyrie. A valkyrie that is very widespread, proven as reliable and for which such a AVF upgrade would be the most beneficial to the greatest number of potential operators for the craft. If we assume the setting is 2059 (the Frontier era), that VF would likely be the VF-11 Thunderbolt. Individual colony fleets manufactured the VF-11 in the thousands, UN bases like New Edwards were packed with VF-11 craft and they were so numerous that unmanned variants were used in live-fire tests during the 2040s. At least according to the impression given by the trivia and animated series, the VF-11 appears to be the most mass manufactured valkyrie. Such a well used and widely deployed VF would be ideal for an AVF Upgrade program and would benefit/appeal to the most fleets and colony worlds in the UNG.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I agree that the VF-11 Thunderbolt would be the most logical and likely choice for such a program, and indeed I'd love to see it. I'd like to see the F-16 re-manufactured with stealth materials in the leading edges and stealth geometry in the control surfaces, and using an enclosed weapons pod (ala F18E/F Advanced Super Hornet) to take the place of the F-35. But it's not going to happen (Hopefully we procure a low cost fighter to replace the F-16, F-20 tigershark might be back on the table).

If I were making the decision, I'd choose to revive the VF-0. Here's why, conventional layout, uses a lifting body design, It's big, plenty of room to pack in all the new AVF systems, It already incorporates some of the Passive stealth geometry, as well as being a combat proven design. Since the R&D work had been done, it cuts costs, and allows the UN Spacy to field a low cost, high performance fighter. (I also like the VF-0 because it resembles my favorite Battlemech, the Stinger, and it's the only toy I have that does so, my VF-1's are S models). The Dimensions of the VF-0 are not too dissimilar from the YF-19, which is the gold standard in AVF design.

Basically, I'm wanting to see what VF's folks want to see reimagined as AVF entries, for the purposes of this exercise, we'll assume the Year is 2038, 2 years before the Project Supernova Trials, Which eliminates some of the later entries (Y/VF-19, YF-21/VF-22, VF-25, VF-29 are already past that spec, and the VF-17 doesn't qualify since it's a special operations mech).

And give some in universe reasoning as to why you'd choose that design.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Valkyrie Driver

[jvmacross]

What about the VF-1X Plus?

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossga/vf-1x-plus.htm

[hulagu]

Does a normal combat styled version of the VF-11MAXL (like the VF-19E is to the Fire Valkyrie) count as a Thunderbolt upgrade? I like delta wings in general, it reminds me of the F-16XL.

[Seto Kaiba]

Actually, another Kawamori-made instance of this popped into my mind earlier... the SW-XA1 Schneeblume concept from VF-Experiment. That had a (not official) backstory that it was a VF-1 that had been basically redone with modern materials and stealth design choices with materials and technology from around the time Project Super Nova was getting off the ground. (IINM, it shares tech with the VF-17).

[Mommar]

Haven't you heard of the VF-X++ from Macross The Ride?

http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/Stats/Statistics/VF-1/VF-1X++.php

(Note: not Hakuna's subsequent upgrade of that.)

"and as there are organizations who must conceal their identity, such as special forces, who might willingly use it, it is guessed that even though it is one of the VF-1X, this particular craft was improved upon for absolutely secret military operations. "

And, thus, if a story about special forces were ever told we could see any valk return for some reason such as this if Kawamori so chose. Would be a great way to cram a VF-4 back into the mix.

[Andras]

I agree that the VF-11 Thunderbolt would be the most logical and likely choice for such a program, and indeed I'd love to see it. I'd like to see the F-16 re-manufactured with stealth materials in the leading edges and stealth geometry in the control surfaces, and using an enclosed weapons pod (ala F18E/F Advanced Super Hornet) to take the place of the F-35. But it's not going to happen (Hopefully we procure a low cost fighter to replace the F-16, F-20 tigershark might be back on the table).

If I were making the decision, I'd choose to revive the VF-0. Here's why, conventional layout, uses a lifting body design, It's big, plenty of room to pack in all the new AVF systems, It already incorporates some of the Passive stealth geometry, as well as being a combat proven design. Since the R&D work had been done, it cuts costs, and allows the UN Spacy to field a low cost, high performance fighter. (I also like the VF-0 because it resembles my favorite Battlemech, the Stinger, and it's the only toy I have that does so, my VF-1's are S models). The Dimensions of the VF-0 are not too dissimilar from the YF-19, which is the gold standard in AVF design.

Basically, I'm wanting to see what VF's folks want to see reimagined as AVF entries, for the purposes of this exercise, we'll assume the Year is 2038, 2 years before the Project Supernova Trials, Which eliminates some of the later entries (Y/VF-19, YF-21/VF-22, VF-25, VF-29 are already past that spec, and the VF-17 doesn't qualify since it's a special operations mech).

And give some in universe reasoning as to why you'd choose that design.

You could use the failure of the Vf-3000 to justify a space rated VF-0C/D as a fighter/bomber VF. The -3000 was bigger, as is the -0 series. The C/D delta wing allows more ordnance storage, and it has the dorsal hardpoints for extra micromissile pods.

For my Mekton conversion, I completely stole the weapons pods from the Advanced SuperHornet for the -0, using them for the big underwing missile pods that held 6 'HAIM-95' that we never see. Each pod holds up to 4 spaces of ordnance, and the A/B/S can have one under each wing, with one optionally replacing the gunpod, and the C/D can have 2 under each wing plus one optionally replacing the gunpod.

[JB0]

You could use the failure of the Vf-3000 to justify a space rated VF-0C/D as a fighter/bomber VF. The -3000 was bigger, as is the -0 series. The C/D delta wing allows more ordnance storage, and it has the dorsal hardpoints for extra micromissile pods.

Delta wing also gives it more tank space for reaction mass. It makes great sense for a space fighter. Edited February 10, 2015 by JB0

[Valkyrie Driver]

Delta wings are also great for Atmospheric flight, lots of wing area, making it very efficient in flight, as well as incredible maneuverability.

Does a normal combat styled version of the VF-11MAXL (like the VF-19E is to the Fire Valkyrie) count as a Thunderbolt upgrade? I like delta wings in general, it reminds me of the F-16XL.

Yeah, it would count, as long as it retains more of the typical VF-11 aesthetics (i.e. no boobs or mylene style head).

[JB0]

And give some in universe reasoning as to why you'd choose that design.

Ah, this makes it fun!

So, the universe is a dangerous place. Humanity was rather rudely awakened to that fact when an alien gunship crashed on the Earth and then the planet was on the receiving end of an orbital bombardment. Suffice to say, there's a lot of folks out there who do not come in peace, and they cruise in some really nasty spaceboats. Otherwise, we wouldn't have variable fighters.

Just considering known risks...

Some colony fleets may be taking courses that pass near known zentradi patrol ranges. Some may have inadvertently stumbled upon a zentradi fleet(as the Macross 7 fleet did, if Fleet of the Strongest Women is canon) and are currently engaged in a reeneactment of Space War 1. Some settled colonies may've had problems with space pirates(one of the oldest of genre traditions) that have well-armored raiding ships.

All of these situations would make a colonial government interested in a fighter designed to break battleships without resorting to tightly-controlled reaction weapons and their associated risks and drawbacks. Which, as it happens, is exactly what the SDP-1 is designed to do.

Though the VF-1 base makes the Stampede a gravely dated vehicle, there's still nothing quite like it. And even if there was a viable modern replacement, these colonies have already invested extensively in their Stampede forces. Not just in terms of raw materials needed to make the fighter, but in support equipment and training. A refit to bring the Stampede up to modern performance levels would keep it a viable anti-ship weapon for a fraction of the full-on replacement cost, to say nothing of retraining and equipment replacement.

Better yet, much of the necessary work has already been done for the VF-1X upgrade program. While changes would be desired to play to it's unique role and unusually heavy armament loadout, this still makes the Stampede Plus a relatively cheap upgrade to develop. Some colonies may have already gone ahead and taken the stock VF-1X upgrade as-is and applied it to their Stampede squadrons with the ingenuity frontiersmen have alwatys been known for, while others wait for a modified upgrade scheme that better suits their Stampedes.

[Mr March]

Perhaps another fun and realistic way to look at potential candidates for an AVF Upgrade in the Macross universe might be to examine modern technologies solving the shortcomings that plagued some of the old valkyries. For example, I'm currently in the midst of a complete revision of the VF-3000 Crusader profile and reading the description of the craft, it sounds like the joint problem could be solved with Frontier-era technology. If the VF-3000 were to be built using " linear actuators", this could solve the joint slipping issue.

I was also thinking about the change in mass/weight and how that may impact revisiting an older valkyrie design. Again using the VF-3000 Crusader as an example, perhaps some of these variable fighters would excel in a role other than the role for which they were originally designed. While the VF-3000 Crusader was a larger fighter and battroid compared to the VF-1 Valkyrie, the Crusader was actually less massive (11.95 metric tons vs. the VF-1 Valkyrie weighing 13.25 metric tons). Now at the time (2012-2018), the VF-3000 Crusader was built to replace the VF-1 Valkyrie as the main variable fighter. However, if the VF-3000 Crusader were built today (we'll assume "today" is 2059), it's weight would more properly classify it as a special operations VF or heavy VF in the same mold as the VF-17 Nightmare (itself a 11.85 metric ton craft). Since the 2030s, nearly all main variable fighters have been in the 8-10 metric ton class. Any exceptions - like the VF-27 Lucifer - feature far superior engine output to compensate for the added mass above the 8-10 metric ton range. Although the VF-3000 Crusader was originally built as a main variable fighter, a modern rebuild via an AVF Upgrade program might better position the craft as a heavy battroid special operations VF. As a heavier special operations craft it could excel in that role rather than suffer in a more conventional role where it's heavy mass would lead to underperformance relative to modern main variable fighters.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I always had a problem imagining how special operations would use a variable fighter. Fighter pilots are a special breed, and it's hard to determine elite status among an already selective community. The closest real world model I can find would be the Air Commandos of the USAF 6th Special Operations Squadron. But their job is to teach foreign nations how to train and maintain an air force (Post US invasion Iraq and Afghanistan). That hardly fits in with an overt offensive group like fighter pilots. Maybe the Wild Weasels would also be a good example, taking on dangerous missions with specially equipped aircraft.

As such, would an AVF be used for such a role? I was under the Impression that the AVF was supposed to be a replacement for the mainline fighter. For Special operations (still don't know how you do covert with a transforming jet fighter) or special missions it would make sense that such a group of pilots would have any number of craft available for use to fit the mission. If a VF-1A would be the best fit for the mission parameters, then they'd use a VF-1A.

For an AVF upgrade, what sort of improvements/enhancements would you expect to see, in updating an older design? Would a VF-11 get smaller engines with equal output to make room for weapons bays? Would a VF-1 get a Pin Point Barrier System? Would there be slight adjustments to control surface geometry to account for added low-observable capability, what kind, if any, signature reduction would be added? Would an improved gun pod be in order?

Would a VF-11 upgrade (We'll call it a VF-11E Super Thunderbolt) have a VF-19 gun pod, and internal weapons bays? Would it have the PPBS? Active Stealth System?

What role would a VF-0A upgrade (VF-0E?) occupy? Would it be an air superiority fighter, or would it be an anti-ship attack craft?

What is the role of a Heavy battroid? Is it a ground combat vehicle (Battlemech or RX-79[G]Gundam)? Or is it purely a space combat role? Macross doesn't really focus on anything other than air/space combat, and doesn't really show us what the rest of warfare has become since the introduction of the Variable fighter/Destroid (I realize that in universe the destroid is all but extinct as a combat unit by 2050).

What do y'all think?

[Andras]

Things I look for in/design into an AVF-technology Upgrade-

Stealth when not previously used

more external or internal ordnance, [delta wings= more HPs ex VF-0E/F (Space rated C/D) or VF-11F (based on MAXL)]

better, later generation gunpod (GU-11D for VF-0E/F; GU-15/17 for VF-11F)

better, later generation micromissile/IRMs

better maneuverability

more thrust, more power= B mode PPB for VF-11F

ability to exit the gravity well (by itself or w aero-FASTpack booster assist)

AVF Upgrade is not necessarily a SpecOps fighter, but a model that incorporates next-gen technology into a previous generation fighter

Compare a Advanced SuperHornet to a F/A-18A legacy Hornet, or a Block 50/60 F-16 to a F-16A.

In Mekton, my VF-11B is 417cp, and the VF-11F is 724 (Vf-19 around 780)

As for SpecOps, that would be IMO, the best stealth available, fold boosters, heavy strike/anti-ship missiles, and many micromissiles.

The ability to sneak in, hit hard, and fight your way out of trouble. Mainline fighters might be detected early (cough Adm Ozzel) while Special Snowflake Force could have hit the rebel base with their VF-17s or 22s before they scrambled. Or they booster into an enemy system, and Pearl Harbor the warships before the rest of your fighters arrive to cut down on the opposition facing your cannonfodder.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Andras

[JB0]

I always had a problem imagining how special operations would use a variable fighter. Fighter pilots are a special breed, and it's hard to determine elite status among an already selective community. The closest real world model I can find would be the Air Commandos of the USAF 6th Special Operations Squadron. But their job is to teach foreign nations how to train and maintain an air force (Post US invasion Iraq and Afghanistan). That hardly fits in with an overt offensive group like fighter pilots. Maybe the Wild Weasels would also be a good example, taking on dangerous missions with specially equipped aircraft.

In Macross 7, they seemed to just be a rapid intercept force. Assuming Diamond Force's use of VF-17s meant anything.

Launch the best hardware and pilots you have out of a railgun towards whatever the biggest problem seems to be, and let them deal with it.

...

One would hope Seven Fleet had more than one such force, particularly given how rapidly they comitted Diamond Force to a problem area.

(still don't know how you do covert with a transforming jet fighter)

You jump a zentradi soldier in the bathroom and steal their uniform, of course.

What is the role of a Heavy battroid? Is it a ground combat vehicle (Battlemech or RX-79[G]Gundam)? Or is it purely a space combat role? Macross doesn't really focus on anything other than air/space combat, and doesn't really show us what the rest of warfare has become since the introduction of the Variable fighter/Destroid (I realize that in universe the destroid is all but extinct as a combat unit by 2050).

The destroids always struck me as vehicles that were very much at home on the ground. Yes, there IS a flying Monster, but... that's only really useful to rapidly move it from point A to point B. Once it gets to point B it lands, finds secure footing, and blows the everloving hell out of something. Mobile Artillery: The Next Generation.

If anything, a conventional destroid is at a disadvantage in space, where it's confined to the surface of a ship.

I assume a heavy battroid would fill a similar role to a Tomahawk or Spartan(at several times the cost).

[Mr March]

Special operations is a very broad category of military mission and doesn't necessarily mean valkyries running around in black balaclava's and gun pods with suppressors
But seriously, special operations is basically just unconventional warfare conducted in cases where larger, more conventional forces would actually hamper the mission objective. Entire conflicts have been fought via special operations; arguably much of the real world conflict in the middle east is far more special operations than open war. So special operations variable fighters could be used for almost anything, especially since the very nature of variable fighter technology (Battroid, GERWALK, Fighter) would allow them to perform in a vast array of roles.

I'm not sure I'd classify ALL pilots in Macross as elite, especially since piloting in the Macross universe happens on a far larger scale than anything in our current world militaries. A single colony fleet has more pilots operating more aircraft/spacecraft than the entire military of most modern nations on Earth. The official trivia for the variable fighters (like the VF-171 Nightmare Plus) seem to imply UN variable fighters are designed specifically for average skill pilots. Hell, there's even construction valkyries and variable police mecha, as seen in Macross 7. The technology of variable vehicles has become ubiquitous in the Macross universe, a stark contrast to the very limited numbers of jet fighters in our current world.

The official trivia describes the VF-17 Nightmare as possessing "strengthened armor in Battroid mode equal to Armored Valkyrie". So it's likely the role of a heavy variable fighter/battroid is to partially field the firepower and enhanced armor of an armored valkyrie without the need for an armored pack.

[Valkyrie Driver]

If you constructed a VF-1 out of modern materials (c. 2040), and used contemporary construction techniques, would there be a weight savings? Same question applies to the VF-0. If so, what role would you see those fighters occupying? Or Would you re purpose the designs and improve the thrust to weight ratio, while essentially making either one a heavy battroid?

[Seto Kaiba]

If you constructed a VF-1 out of modern materials (c. 2040), and used contemporary construction techniques, would there be a weight savings?

Curiously... the answer to this one from official or non-setting sources seems to be "No". The VF-1X Valkyrie Plus from Macross Digital Mission VF-X is 13,850kg or 14,100kg empty depending which source you consult (600-850kg heavier), and the Master File VF-1P Freya Valkyrie variant is 13,800kg (550kg heavier).

Same question applies to the VF-0. If so, what role would you see those fighters occupying? Or Would you re purpose the designs and improve the thrust to weight ratio, while essentially making either one a heavy battroid?

Probably just as a front-line unit for a force that doesn't want to shell out for the rights to build the latest and greatest new design from Shinsei or General Galaxy.

[Valkyrie Driver]

So any updated design would be relegated to secondline use? In that case, assuming that the VF-1 and VF-0 were updated, and put into circulation by a colony force, what roles would you see the colony using them in? Why?

I'd probably say the VF-1 would occupy a role similar to the F-16, light(er)weight multi-role fighter, while the VF-0 would function as the F-15C/D/E. Air superiority and strike fighter.

[Seto Kaiba]

So any updated design would be relegated to secondline use?

Well, it would be consistent with the official (or semi-official) examples of older designs being updated for ongoing use in the (New) UN Forces in the main series timeline. Typically, the upgrades are made to keep older aircraft viable after the latest and greatest envelope-pushing fighters come out. Macross Frontier had examples of this in the VF-171EX Nightmare Plus EX, a remodeled VF-171 that had been enhanced with tech and materials from the latest and greatest VF the government had earmarked to replace it, which pilots criticized as noticeably stop-gap in its engineering despite significant gains over the base model.

Mind you, there are examples of modernized older designs fighting just fine on the front lines (like the VF-1P/X, VF-4G, etc.), but sometimes the design just isn't able to adopt every new advance... like the VF-171EX not being compatible with the inertia store converter, or the VF-9E, which became dangerously unstable in the process of being upgraded to AVF levels.

Incidentally, I thought of another example of this kinda thing happening in canon... the VF-1R "Refined Valkyrie" family of designs from the Macross II prequels. It was a VF-1 airframe that'd been modernized in pretty much every respect, with postwar technological advances and Zentran/Meltran tech which shared the main variable fighter role with the VF-4 through the 2020s and 2030s. The command variant, the VF-1SR, was the player character mecha in Macross 2036 and the signature mecha of Komilia Maria Jenius.

In that case, assuming that the VF-1 and VF-0 were updated, and put into circulation by a colony force, what roles would you see the colony using them in? Why?

My gut feeling on an emigrant fleet using an upgraded VF-0 or VF-1 would be that it would probably be upgraded to fill a particular niche in operations... like the VF-1X+'s use in "covert" operations*, or the VF-171EX's filling an immediate need for an anti-Vajra fighter... and thus would probably land in the hands of some smallish specialist unit like Diamond Force or Round Table in limited numbers.

* I just can't say "covert operations" in the context of a twelve meter tall robot with a straight face...

[Valkyrie Driver]

Gotta admit, the only VF-1R I was familiar with was the one that showed up in the Robotech: Battlecry video game.

I have seen pictures on the internets, and entries on Sketchley's stats, that show SMS VF-19's. Where and when did those show up? I see some specialized variants but have no idea what they're for, or where they came from.

It was my impression that the VF-19 was too expensive to produce (hence going with the VF-171 in frontier), and so it was not done in large numbers (*cough* F-22 *cough* F35 *cough cough*). So where did these come from? Are they dumbed down? The VF-25 surpasses the VF-19 in performance, and I get the feeling that piloting a VF-19 pushes the limits of human ability, hence why the VF-25 has some sort of inertial damper.

That's got to be the one thing I don't like about the VF-25, is the Inertial damper system, that feels a little too far from the original concept, not to mention that variable fighters were always supposed to be based on science we actually understood (If a bit impractical).

[Gubaba]

Gotta admit, the only VF-1R I was familiar with was the one that showed up in the Robotech: Battlecry video game.

I have seen pictures on the internets, and entries on Sketchley's stats, that show SMS VF-19's. Where and when did those show up? I see some specialized variants but have no idea what they're for, or where they came from.

I take it you haven't seen the second Frontier movie?

[JB0]

Gotta admit, the only VF-1R I was familiar with was the one that showed up in the Robotech: Battlecry video game.

The 1R in 2036 is awesomer. It has transforming FAST packs.

It was my impression that the VF-19 was too expensive to produce (hence going with the VF-171 in frontier), and so it was not done in large numbers (*cough* F-22 *cough* F35 *cough cough*). So where did these come from? Are they dumbed down? The VF-25 surpasses the VF-19 in performance, and I get the feeling that piloting a VF-19 pushes the limits of human ability, hence why the VF-25 has some sort of inertial damper.

Well, real-world fighters can exceed human tolerances. Not as dramatically as Guld's death in Mac+ Movie Edition, but...

The inertial damper was needed to excuse why we didn't just move to fleets of drones, remote-piloted or otherwise

That's got to be the one thing I don't like about the VF-25, is the Inertial damper system, that feels a little too far from the original concept, not to mention that variable fighters were always supposed to be based on science we actually understood (If a bit impractical).

Yeah, I don't like it either, really. But it had to come next if fighters kept moving forward. Edited February 16, 2015 by JB0

[Seto Kaiba]

Gotta admit, the only VF-1R I was familiar with was the one that showed up in the Robotech: Battlecry video game.

That's... something else entirely. The thing in Battlecry was based on an animation error in the original Macross series and used to pad the game out. Macross's Refined Valkyrie predates it by about 10 years, and is much cooler lookin: (Exemplar is Komilia's VF-1SR, third pic shows VF-1JR, VF-1SR, and VF-1AR head configs).

It was my impression that the VF-19 was too expensive to produce (hence going with the VF-171 in frontier), and so it was not done in large numbers (*cough* F-22 *cough* F35 *cough cough*).

Well, there were a variety of reasons behind the VF-171 being adopted over the VF-19 in most regions... one of the big ones was loss-of-control issues when they were in the hands of inexperienced pilots. Isamu's VF-19EF/A (also sometimes known as VF-19 ADVANCE) was sort of a special case, and was financed privately for Isamu's use with only two units produced.

Macross the Ride, Macross 30, and the novelization of Macross Frontier all depict limited numbers of VF-19s in SMS's hands, but mostly they're the dumbed-down "monkey model" units. I think the largest number mentioned in connection with adoption of the VF-19 is the 154 VF-19EF Caliburns the Frontier fleet built for its NUNS forces and SMS in the 2050s.

So where did these come from? Are they dumbed down? The VF-25 surpasses the VF-19 in performance, and I get the feeling that piloting a VF-19 pushes the limits of human ability, hence why the VF-25 has some sort of inertial damper.

In general... they're usually "monkey model" variants produced locally by one particular emigrant fleet or planet for their own use, such as the Frontier fleet's VF-19EF Caliburn family or the Galaxy fleet's VF-19C/MG21. Others, like Aisha Blanchett's VF-19E, Isamu's VF-19 ADVANCE, and Chelsea Scarlett's VF-19ACTIVE Nothung are proof of concept machines, one-offs, or generally encompassed under the umbrella of "Ace custom".

(If there are any specific variants from sketchley's site you want sourced or would like more info on, he or I can happily do that for you.)

That's got to be the one thing I don't like about the VF-25, is the Inertial damper system, that feels a little too far from the original concept, not to mention that variable fighters were always supposed to be based on science we actually understood (If a bit impractical).

's not actually a new technological development in Macross... the Inertia Store Converter is just the Queadluun-Rau's/YF-21's/VF-22's inertia vector control system on steroids. Tech's been in the setting for ages. Supposedly the ISC's backwards compatible with the VF-19 too, but wasn't adopted on such due to economic concerns.

[Mr March]

Little bit of notekeeping here...

According to all official trivia, we don't know how widespread or ultimately successful the VF-19 Excalibur was as the main variable fighter of the UN Spacy. It could have been very widely adopted and successful...or it could have been very limited and neglected...or something in between. All we do know officially is that the VF-19 Excalibur was adopted as the UN Spacy main variable fighter in 2041. We also know from official trivia that the mass production models VF-19F and VF-19S were designed specifically with stabilized engines and a simplified airframe that allowed average pilots to control it. The Macross 7 Fleet adopted the craft for mass manufacture in small numbers (and adopted it for special operations in Sound Force). And of course, the VF-19P Excalibur was seen deployed in Macross Dynamite 7.

Official trivia about the VF-171 Nightmare Plus indicates it was first flown in 2046 and was declared as the main force VF of the New UN Forces sometime in the 2050's (no specific date is given). The only thing we do know for certain is that the VF-171 Nightmare Plus had to be adopted as the main variable fighter sometime in the 2050's and before 2059, since by that year it was already known as the main variable fighter used by the New U.N. Spacy.

Outside of the official trivia, the Compendium states the following about the VF-19 Excalibur and the VF-171 Nightmare Plus:

According to Kawamori, the VF-171 appears as the standard main variable fighter in the 2059 timeframe of Macross Frontier because the previously designated U.N. Spacy main variable fighter, the VF-19 Excalibur, looks too much like a "hero" unit for the role. He also wanted a fighter that was clearly distinguishable from the hero unit of the series, the VF-25.

So the reason we didn't see more of the VF-19 Excalibur was strictly a creative decision made for the Macross Frontier TV series audience; there is no official in-universe declaration for any explicit exclusion.

Edited February 16, 2015 by Mr March

[Valkyrie Driver]

Makes sense. I'm finding new stuff every day. I really liked the VF-19, I just wish the only toy I had of it wasn't the VF Hi-metal. When I get my tax return back, I think I'm going to finally break down and get the Yamato 1/60 YF-19, that I have been wanting for the past 3 years, just so I have a good one. After that I just want n SV-51, and My collection will be well rounded.

But that aside. I didn't realize that the Inertia Store Converter was something in universe already. So I'm gonna keep making an arse of myself with questions. Is the EX-gear something that would be incorporated into an AVF design, bringing it up to 2059 spec? if so, what exactly does the EX-gear do? Is it akin to the Master-Slave operating architecture of an Armslave (from Full Metal Panic!)? Or is it something else entirely? I always sort of wondered about that. The Armslave, and EX gear were drastically different concepts of what a Mecha was to me, having come from Battletech to Gundam, and to Macross.

[JB0]

Far as I knos, the EX-Gear is new for the 25, with the dual purposes of more natural battroid control and more survivable ejections.

[Seto Kaiba]

But that aside. I didn't realize that the Inertia Store Converter was something in universe already.

Not s'much the ISC, but its less powerful sibling... the Inertia Vector Control System, which from what's been said about it could take about 7G off the airframe at maximum power. The ISC pulls 27.5G off the airframe, a huge improvement.

Is the EX-gear something that would be incorporated into an AVF design, bringing it up to 2059 spec? if so, what exactly does the EX-gear do?

Survey says "Yeah, probably". The Macross Frontier VF-19EF Caliburns in Macross the Ride that were built for SMS and the NUNS in 2058 were built with EX-Gear cockpits, though that may have partly been because they were using them to evaluate equipment for the YF/VF-25 as on the VF-19ACTIVE Nothung.

That said, the VF-171 Nightmare Plus variant in use in 2059 was an AVF as well, but did not possess EX-Gear until it was retrofitted to accept it in the VF-171EX upgrade.

EX-Gear is a sort of improved cockpit system... it uses a combination of a learning computer and monitoring of electrical impulses in the pilot's muscles to greatly improve the precision and ease of control of a VF, supposedly to the extent of providing a control feel almost like "wearing" the VF. It's also got some survival kit features like a simple cold sleep function, small medical kit, and distress beacon, while also functioning as a sort of "self-rescuing" ejection seat that turns into a flight-capable powered suit.

I think the way one of my friends put it was "It's a core fighter you can wear".

[Valkyrie Driver]

That sounds like the master-slave control architecture from FMP!. With some minor differences, but overall the same type of arrangement. I always though it would be better for a VF to operate that way in battroid mode. In which case elite units might be like rated ALOs (Air Liason Officers).