AVF Upgrade Candidates

[Mr March]

Valkyrie Driver

That's actually a very good idea. I could see single-engine variable fighters in that role. I think by your theory, the VF-5000 Star Mirage could have been a single engine machine. Which would be very cool and like you said, much more cost effective given the deployment and the type of role the VF would fulfill.

Mommar

I think going for triple engines may be - as JBO said - adding unnecessary complexity to that which is already over-engineered. However, I think the engineering of the technology in Macross has always been something we're just supposed to accept and suspend our disbelief, which is probably why so little official trivia has been written about the subject. We already have quad-engine Valkyries, so why not three or five?

OverTechnology really acts like a magic box in Macross. By all scientific and mechanical understanding we have today, the variable fighters - or even just the Destroids - would be entirely untenable as reliable military machines. The current F-22 Raptor has a notorious reputation as one of the highest cost-per-flight fighter aircraft ever, requiring upward of 30 hours in maintenance for every 1 hour of flight time. Something vastly more complex like a destroid or a valkyrie would be in the hundreds of hours based on our current understanding, meaning they would be functionally ineffective in even the least dangerous theatre of operation. Yet the many Macross TV series and films depict the exact opposite, often times showing valkyries flown for extended periods of time and redeployed in the same day. If anything, the mecha of Macross seem easy to maintain, easy to repair and reliable in even when stressed in the extreme.

So one of the miracles of OverTechnology seems to be making the complex very simple and reducing component degradation by entire orders of magnitude. With that kind of technology, variable fighters may not even need a twin engine design to be highly reliable and redundant.

There may also be more practical reasons for the twin engine design when considering the Battroid mode. The vast majority of valkyries transform in such a way that the engines are in the lower legs. Since engines are the heaviest parts of any VF, their position in the lower legs would grant the Battroid a very low center of gravity, making the robot configuration highly stable.

[Seto Kaiba]

Honestly I'm a bit surprised that we haven't seen any single engine VF-designs.

I'm not... mainly because the default location for the engines, to facilitate transformation, has always been the legs. The VF-22 did something different, but the design got a fair bit more complicated as a result.

I'd imagine redundancy in the power system is also a factor. On a single-engine VF, if the engine is damaged and the reaction power system has to shut down, you're strapped to the inside of a statue. On a twin engine VF, you've got a second engine to maintain operating power so you can limp away (literally or figuratively). In the air, losing the engine on a single-engine fighter doesn't prevent you from at least having a good ol' college try at making a getaway... but on the ground, in a robot, the sudden loss of motive power means you're a sitting duck.

We have seen twin (obvious) engine VFs, and quad engine VFs, but no single or tri-engine (the VF-0/ghost combo doesn't count...) VF's. I wonder why?

Technically we've also seen a six-engine VF... if we count the VF-4's rocket boosters. It had a pair of thermonuclear reaction turbine engines, a pair of ramjet engines in the wings, and then the two rocket boosters in the engine nacelles.

So are the engines producing a series of thermonuclear explosions in a reaction chamber (ignition chamber/burner can)? I was under the impression that the intakes collected hydrogen (stellar and atmospheric, like a magnetic bassard ramscoop), to use in the reaction turbines. They would still need onboard fuel, but the collected hydrogen would be used to supplement the onboard supply. That's how I imagines it worked anyway...

We don't know exactly what method they're using, but they're using a heat-exchange process to divert heat from the reaction to the interior of the engine.

For space flight, the way the engines operate is described almost exactly like Star Trek's impulse engines... using plasma siphoned off the reaction as propellant in an ion engine powered by that same reaction.

Slush hydrogen is described as being the VF fuel of choice in the Master File books... though the canon definition of thermonuclear reaction suggests that VF engines are actually multifuel-capable and can run on fuels that would not normally be considered fuel to run an ersatz-fusion reactor. (Which might also account for differences in exhaust color throughout Macross... different fuels being used in the engines produces different-colored exhaust because of the elements in the plasma.)

[Valkyrie Driver]

IN regards to the complexity issue, We have science fiction universes that have shown Mecha as reliable military machines (I'm referring to battletech). In that case, there were hundreds of years to get to that point, and a few hundreds more to solve the reliability problems. In Macross we saw our technology get artificially accelerated to that point (the arrival and subsequent reverse engineering of the ASS-1).

As for the fuel, we have started to reach sustained fusion, in deuterium/tritium reactions. I don't know how much gamma is produced in that reaction, but there is alpha and beta particle radiation, which could be captured and recycled through so as to cut down on reaction mass loss. That's how we envision the reactor working scientifically( I mean an actual Fusion Reactor, not the TN turbines). If the TN turbines are indeed just magnetically shielded jet engines that react fusile material. Given the state of jet turbines these days, I'd expect that the engine would reminiscent of a low bypass turbofan, if intake air is used to cool the reaction.

[Seto Kaiba]

IN regards to the complexity issue, [...] In Macross we saw our technology get artificially accelerated to that point (the arrival and subsequent reverse engineering of the ASS-1).

Nothing like a technological jumpstart of a few thousand years, eh? Mind you, that's not to say that VFs were entirely reliable in their formative years, or even now. Macross's creators like to throw those little touches of realism in here and there with various issues in design and operation... like how the VF-19 got pulled from widespread deployment because of loss-of-control issues, the initial burst turbine designs in the YF/VF-19 and -21/22 having serious overheating problems in atmospheric flight, the joint slippage issues that occurred on the VF-3000 when they tried to scale up the VF-1 design, or, my favorite, the dedicated space fighter VF-X3 from their early non-canon games that turned out to be an uncontrollable mess because its kitbashed avionics package wasn't up to the job...

If the TN turbines are indeed just magnetically shielded jet engines that react fusile material. Given the state of jet turbines these days, I'd expect that the engine would reminiscent of a low bypass turbofan, if intake air is used to cool the reaction.

The cutaways in various books like Master File always show them as being something not too dissimilar from a normal axial-flow turbofan engine... albeit one with a rather small compressor stage, because of the separate superconducting compressor on the other side of the ducted knee joint.

The thermonuclear reaction power system is presented as a largely self-contained module situated around the turbine shaft, and either directly behind or partly inside the compressor stage, where it can transfer heat (and/or plasma) to the high-pressure air in what would normally be a turbine's combustion chamber.

[Mommar]

Mommar

I think going for triple engines may be - as JBO said - adding unnecessary complexity to that which is already over-engineered. However, I think the engineering of the technology in Macross has always been something we're just supposed to accept and suspend our disbelief, which is probably why so little official trivia has been written about the subject. We already have quad-engine Valkyries, so why not three or five?

OverTechnology really acts like a magic box in Macross. By all scientific and mechanical understanding we have today, the variable fighters - or even just the Destroids - would be entirely untenable as reliable military machines. The current F-22 Raptor has a notorious reputation as one of the highest cost-per-flight fighter aircraft ever, requiring upward of 30 hours in maintenance for every 1 hour of flight time. Something vastly more complex like a destroid or a valkyrie would be in the hundreds of hours based on our current understanding, meaning they would be functionally ineffective in even the least dangerous theatre of operation. Yet the many Macross TV series and films depict the exact opposite, often times showing valkyries flown for extended periods of time and redeployed in the same day. If anything, the mecha of Macross seem easy to maintain, easy to repair and reliable in even when stressed in the extreme.

So one of the miracles of OverTechnology seems to be making the complex very simple and reducing component degradation by entire orders of magnitude. With that kind of technology, variable fighters may not even need a twin engine design to be highly reliable and redundant.

There may also be more practical reasons for the twin engine design when considering the Battroid mode. The vast majority of valkyries transform in such a way that the engines are in the lower legs. Since engines are the heaviest parts of any VF, their position in the lower legs would grant the Battroid a very low center of gravity, making the robot configuration highly stable.

So the problem is that we are semi-attributing real world solutions to cartoon/magic situations. Given that it's a spacecraft that operates in space real world applications concludes triplicate in everything. That's how it's done. Granted, Overtechnology possibly surpasses all of the radiation/heat damage issues that may be encountered and situation no longer exists. We've been discussing semi-real world situations and in that instance you'd have to apply all of the situations of space too. I'm perfectly saying "it's magic" and letting it slide. Given that none of that other stuff matters, you'd still want at least two engines because floating about in space sucks.

[Zinjo]

We don't know exactly what method they're using, but they're using a heat-exchange process to divert heat from the reaction to the interior of the engine.

For space flight, the way the engines operate is described almost exactly like Star Trek's impulse engines... using plasma siphoned off the reaction as propellant in an ion engine powered by that same reaction.

Slush hydrogen is described as being the VF fuel of choice in the Master File books... though the canon definition of thermonuclear reaction suggests that VF engines are actually multifuel-capable and can run on fuels that would not normally be considered fuel to run an ersatz-fusion reactor. (Which might also account for differences in exhaust color throughout Macross... different fuels being used in the engines produces different-colored exhaust because of the elements in the plasma.)

I was under the impression that the propellant was any inert gas that could be use to provide propulsion in a vacuum. The turbine engines were electrical in nature and simply utilized the available atmosphere to produce thrust. Space required a gas to substitute for atmosphere.

[Mr March]

Mommar

Yes, the creator's intentions were to have us suspend our disbelief. But their intentions were also for us to experience the "Real Robot" genre, created specifically to apply real world understanding/measurement to fictional mecha and present those mecha in a real world context. We can explain away everything with "it's anime magic" and leave it at that, but that pretty much ends the conversation and ends the fun. Personally, I like to imagine how the Macross world works by applying my real world knowledge because it's creative, interesting and fun. Otherwise, all we have are favorite threads (no offense to those threads, of course; I join in those too)

[Seto Kaiba]

I was under the impression that the propellant was any inert gas that could be use to provide propulsion in a vacuum. The turbine engines were electrical in nature and simply utilized the available atmosphere to produce thrust. Space required a gas to substitute for atmosphere.

That'd be kind of wasteful and needlessly complex, wouldn't it? You'd need separate tanks for reactant and propellant, and in space you'd need to expend energy from the power system to convert the propellant into a plasma for the MHD plasma ion engine system to accelerate. In atmospheric flight, you wouldn't be able to generate much thrust using a purely electrically-driven turbine without any heating of intake air... it'd just be an elaborate and inefficient propeller.

The approach diagrammed and discussed in the technical manuals like Sky Angels and Master File is a fairly efficient way to go about it. You only need tanks to carry reactant (slush hydrogen), because the reaction provides power to run the MHD engine AND an on-demand plasma stream for the MHD engine to use for propellant. Having the reactor right there inside the engine also makes transferring heat from the reaction to intake air a convenient way to cool the reactor and provide functionality like a conventional jet engine without having to worry about combustion efficiency and with minimal fuel consumption. (That's how VFs pull off the "nearly unlimited" flight ranges in atmospheric service.)

[Valkyrie Driver]

So really the engine still works on the basic principles of a jet engine; Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow. Only instead of combusting jet fuel, it reacts fusile material. OT must have some incredible high temp metals.

[JB0]

I'd imagine redundancy in the power system is also a factor. On a single-engine VF, if the engine is damaged and the reaction power system has to shut down, you're strapped to the inside of a statue. On a twin engine VF, you've got a second engine to maintain operating power so you can limp away (literally or figuratively). In the air, losing the engine on a single-engine fighter doesn't prevent you from at least having a good ol' college try at making a getaway... but on the ground, in a robot, the sudden loss of motive power means you're a sitting duck.

And in space, you start flying in a straight line on a constant speed from the moment your power cuts. And you're too hot to be mistaken for debris, so... can you say easy target?

Slush hydrogen is described as being the VF fuel of choice in the Master File books... though the canon definition of thermonuclear reaction suggests that VF engines are actually multifuel-capable and can run on fuels that would not normally be considered fuel to run an ersatz-fusion reactor.

Which is WEIRD AS HELL. I just want to note that.

I guess with overtechnology, they could have a field generator that dampens the coulomb force that make atomic nucleii repellant instead of any of the conventional ways to overcome that natural repulsion and FORCE a fusion reaction. That'd make "non-fuels" readily fusible, completely screw with the energy output equations that dictate practicality as a fuel... and makes as much sense as anything else.

...

It'd also make for some interesting weaponry.

Even if it's not a field which can be projected over a long range(an assumption I make for the simple reason that they HAVEN'T), you could stuff all sorts of heavy elements into the reactor, fuse them into super-heavy nucleii. To heck with U-235, you've just built a box full of crap like nobellium, darmstadtium, and the like, with half-lives typically measured in seconds if not picoseconds. All those ridiculously short-lived atoms held together by a single field generator that can be shut off oh... so... easily.

The sudden restoration of normal atomic physics would result in a lot of violently unstable atomic nucleii in close proximity to each other(as if anything in this box NEEDS an incentive to fission).

So just let nature take it's course, and you've got a super-fission bomb that's INCREDIBLY easy to make.

[Seto Kaiba]

So really the engine still works on the basic principles of a jet engine; Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow. Only instead of combusting jet fuel, it reacts fusile material. OT must have some incredible high temp metals.

Pretty much... instead of burning refined hydrocarbons to provide the "bang", they're flash-heating the air by exposing it to heat from a tiny sustained thermonuclear reaction. Overtechnology materials are some pretty tough stuff... though Master File takes rhapsodizing about it to the ludicrous extreme of even talking about how it influenced threaded fastener design. (Yes, overtechnology SCREWS... I had a hard time taking that one seriously.)

The old Sky Angels book asserts that the VF-1's skin/armor was equivalent to 100x its thickness in RHA, and that stuff handily stood up to reentry temperatures even while damaged.

I guess with overtechnology, they could have a field generator that dampens the coulomb force that make atomic nucleii repellant instead of any of the conventional ways to overcome that natural repulsion and FORCE a fusion reaction.

Per Master File, they're using a miniature gravity inertia control system to catalyze and control the thermonuclear reaction inside the engine's reactor... crushing the reactant past the fusion point with extradimensional forces.

It'd also make for some interesting weaponry.

Terrifying would be a better word for it... as Macross Chronicle describes it, thermonuclear reaction warheads work on pretty much the exact same set of principles. They're hydrogen bombs where the fission trigger has been replaced by the miniaturized GIC, so they no longer contain radioactive material and thus don't produce any long-term radioactive effects in the target area.

(Never mind that it also seems to have made it easier to scale the warheads... the highest-yield one mentioned in Chronicle was a whopping 10 gigatons.)

[JB0]

(Yes, overtechnology SCREWS... I had a hard time taking that one seriously.)

Finally! A philips that won't cam out and destroy the driver and screwhead both!

Per Master File, they're using a miniature gravity inertia control system to catalyze and control the thermonuclear reaction inside the engine's reactor... crushing the reactant past the fusion point with extradimensional forces.

Awww, coulomb force would've been so much cooler.

I do, however, grant that for an accessible science-fiction franchise, gravity is the more reasonable force to tap.

Terrifying would be a better word for it...

The two words have a lot of overlap in weapons design.

as Macross Chronicle describes it, thermonuclear reaction warheads work on pretty much the exact same set of principles. They're hydrogen bombs where the fission trigger has been replaced by the miniaturized GIC, so they no longer contain radioactive material and thus don't produce any long-term radioactive effects in the target area.

That's a LOT better than my proposed super-fission bomb. The only good thing about THAT was that everything involved decayed so rapidly.

(Never mind that it also seems to have made it easier to scale the warheads... the highest-yield one mentioned in Chronicle was a whopping 10 gigatons.)

That makes a lot of sense. Not only do they not have a big wad of uranium or plutonium sitting in the middle of things taking up space(plus all teh elaborate parts that go into making a fission weapon work), they ALSO have a device confining the fusible material, so it isn't already being distributed by the shock wave before the fusion reaction starts. So much more of the fuel goes into the actual explosion(and depending on how long the GIC survives, possibly the next round of fusible components too).

That's... a really big bomb, though.

Edited February 27, 2015 by JB0

[Sildani]

Those Zentraedi ships were really big, too. So were their hordes of Glaugs.

Thanks very much for this thread guys, it's been fascinating reading. As for the canon-icity of the Master File books, I think Kawamori was asked about them, and all the other materials, and he said something to the effect of: "None of it is canon, and all of it is canon". So I suppose we can take what we want, and leave the rest.

Just like your salad bar! Erm. Sorry.

Seto: wot's RHA?

Pity so much of this is in Japanese and hard to find.

[Seto Kaiba]

Awww, coulomb force would've been so much cooler.

I do, however, grant that for an accessible science-fiction franchise, gravity is the more reasonable force to tap.

Yep... if it helps, it's said that the miniaturized GIC used in reaction engines and weapons is using the physics of super dimension space (specifically the super-dense matter therein) to provide the effect. The principles involved aren't that different from how a super dimension energy cannon works.

That's... a really big bomb, though.

The missile it's attached to... is a 24 warhead anti-fleet reaction missile used on the command battle-carrier that was constructed to protect the Varauta system (and subsequently ended up in the Protodeviln's hands).

Thanks very much for this thread guys, it's been fascinating reading. As for the canon-icity of the Master File books, I think Kawamori was asked about them, and all the other materials, and he said something to the effect of: "None of it is canon, and all of it is canon". So I suppose we can take what we want, and leave the rest.

Eh... Kawamori said that about the shows. The Master File books themselves, on which Kawamori consulted, actually outright state they're not part of/reflective of the official Macross setting on their credits/acknowledgements page at the back of each volume. The books have had some details incorporated into unambiguously official setting material like Macross Chronicle though, but it's kinda hit-and-miss.

[Sildani]

I take it you can read some pretty technical Japanese, Seto! Thanks.

[Valkyrie Driver]

So, I've decided to give a shot at writing fanfiction, and I've decided to use an upgraded VF-11 as the primary mecha. While I'm not taking it to full avf specs, I am integrating some AVF features, like internal weapons bays (albeit small), and up tuned engines. I've also decided that the design should be scaled up a little, like 5 to 10% (similar to the way the F/A-18E/F is bigger than the F/A-18C/D). What do you think?

[sketchley]

So, I've decided to give a shot at writing fanfiction, and I've decided to use an upgraded VF-11 as the primary mecha. While I'm not taking it to full avf specs, I am integrating some AVF features, like internal weapons bays (albeit small), and up tuned engines. I've also decided that the design should be scaled up a little, like 5 to 10% (similar to the way the F/A-18E/F is bigger than the F/A-18C/D). What do you think?

The internal weapon bays are standard in the VF-11C (http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/Stats/Statistics/VF-11/VF11.php#OFFENSIVE_SYSTEMS).

The engines up-tuning would be part of a normal upgrade cycle for the aircraft. However, upscaling the design doesn't seem to be worth the effort (speaking in-universe). It'd make more sense to micronize the internal systems, thus freeing up space inside the existing airframe.

The in-universe equivalent to the Super Hornet enhancements would be the VF-11MAXL.

Nevertheless, some things you should be considering is who the primary operators are (as in Emigrant Fleet, planet defence force, etc), and what is their primary use of the fighter?

In universe, the VF-11 and VF-14 competed for the main fighter seat, and even though the VF-11 won that, and became the main fighter and was employed in Emigrant Fleets and so on, the VF-14 saw extensive use in places like the Emigrant Planets - which prized its robustness, ease of maintainability, and excess internal space. Maybe the VF-14 is better suited for your fan fic needs?

[Valkyrie Driver]

I outline my fanfic setting here, near the bottom:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=35183&page=9

But basically, I'm using an emigrant fleet. I thought that the internal weapon bays were not considered cannon for the VF-11. If they are considered cannon, then there would be no need for the size of the fighter to be increased, unless it was for including bigger engines and more/better avionics.

The VF-14 is probably a bit big for a primary fleet defense fighter, that and the fact that I really like the VF-11...

[sketchley]

But basically, I'm using an emigrant fleet. I thought that the internal weapon bays were not considered cannon for the VF-11. If they are considered cannon, then there would be no need for the size of the fighter to be increased, unless it was for including bigger engines and more/better avionics.

Thus the specific "in the VF-11C". It's unclear if they are present on the other models - or even only limited to the VF-11C in the M7 fleet. Nevertheless, they're also present on the VF-11MAXL...

The VF-14 is probably a bit big for a primary fleet defense fighter, that and the fact that I really like the VF-11...

It's the main fighter in the 13th Emigrant Fleet (the one that discovered/explored Varohta).

[JB0]

Yep... if it helps, it's said that the miniaturized GIC used in reaction engines and weapons is using the physics of super dimension space (specifically the super-dense matter therein) to provide the effect. The principles involved aren't that different from how a super dimension energy cannon works.

It does help! Given that one of the working hypotheses for why gravity is weaker, but farther reaching, than most of the basic forces is that gravitons wander through extra dimensions...

Science nerd satisfied.

...

Not that I would describe Macross as hard sci-fi yet(or ever).

The missile it's attached to... is a 24 warhead anti-fleet reaction missile used on the command battle-carrier that was constructed to protect the Varauta system (and subsequently ended up in the Protodeviln's hands).

Oh, that's EXACTLY who you want to own a 20-gigaton bomb...

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] and I've decided to use an upgraded VF-11 as the primary mecha. While I'm not taking it to full avf specs, I am integrating some AVF features, like internal weapons bays (albeit small), and up tuned engines.

Certainly containable... you might find it interesting/enlightening/helpful to read about the VF-11 Thunderbolt Interceptor over on the Macross Compendium wiki. The internal weapons bays are a thing on two VF-11 models (the MAXL and -C type, the latter being a screwup in the animation that got canonized post-facto), and so too is sticking more powerful engines into the VF-11 (the FF-2099A engines used by the VF-16 seem to be particularly popular for this purpose, and offer 45% greater output than the VF-11's standard FF-2025G's).

I've also decided that the design should be scaled up a little, like 5 to 10% (similar to the way the F/A-18E/F is bigger than the F/A-18C/D). What do you think?

That's about the only part I don't think is really workable... the in-universe evidence for the viability of up-scaling a VF suggests that it's unwise, and prone to introduce mechanical problems (such as on the VF-3000, an upscaled VF-1, which suffered issues with its joints slipping).

The VF-14 is probably a bit big for a primary fleet defense fighter, that and the fact that I really like the VF-11...

The VF-14 Vampire is big, yes... but a larger airframe is advantageous for a space fighter. It offers more room for fuel, for a larger and more powerful engine (roughly 85% greater output than the VF-11's), for internal weapons storage, and for upgrades or other optional equipment. It might've lost the Project Nova competition to the VF-11, but it enjoyed a fair bit of popularity... the 13th Long Distance Emigrant Fleet used them as their main variable fighter, and it's also said to have been extremely popular with the survey and emigrant fleets throughout the 2030s and 2040s.

Size-wise, the VF-11 is actually quite small for a variable fighter... the VF-14's size is more typical, of postwar VFs in general and AVFs in particular.

Oh, that's EXACTLY who you want to own a 20-gigaton bomb...

Considering the Protodeviln wanted to take prisoners... yeah, it IS exactly who you want to own a 240 gigaton bomb, because you know they'll never USE it.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I appreciate all the replies. So I'll be revising my specs for the upgraded Thunderbolt, no size increase (due to issues raised by Seto) and using the C model as the basis (due to the internal bays). The MAXL could reach orbit on it's own with those engines right? IIRC it can.

As for the VF-14, I might keep that on the back burner, maybe use it as The dedicated fleet defense fighter (like the old F-14, where the VF-11 would function like the F-18). Still I wouldn't want the VF-14 to be competing with the VF-19's in my fleet.

I also forgot to mention that I intended to use VF-1D's and VF-4(B)'s as trainers. With the VF-1D's used as basic fighter trainers (for the schools) and proficiency trainers (for the main line fighter squadrons), and the VF-4B's (I pulled that from Sketchley's Statistics site) for heavy battroid trainers.

In a similar way to the USAF, each squadron would have about 2 two-seat versions of their fighter (usually for checkrides). Each squadron would also maintain about 2-4 proficiency trainers.

[Andras]

Adding different kinds airframes simply complicates the logistical train, why not use 2 seat VF-11s as your trainers?

VT-11D- 2 seat trainer

VF-11B- single seat advanced trainer

VF-11C+ fleet squadron fighter

VF-14- heavy strike fighter, long range interceptor

You could give all the basic fighters jump-seats like the Vf-19 had, everyone can act as combat search and rescue and pick up ejected pilots. In mekton, the second seat costs and takes up the same space as a ejectable cockpit pod does, so it's an easy change.

Design EW warfare suites to fit in the leg bays that can also be slotted in for special missions, which lets you take an EW officer in the backseat for special missions. .

[Valkyrie Driver]

Basically it boils down to the logistical issues. Most fighter and bomber squadrons in the USAF maintain T38's as flight proficiency trainers simply because it costs way too much in maintenance and fuel to fly an f-15/16/22/35 or B-52/2/1 just to maintain flight proficiency (that is in order to get flight hours to stay on flight status). That's why I chose to do that. The VF-4 would be the most similar airframe to the VF-17, VF-19, and VA-3 for training pilots. While the VF-1 is the most basic airframe for learning to fly a VF. Those two air frames are old and proven and would be easy to manufacture parts for and keep them flying. They'd never see combat deployment (outside of extreme emergencies). The two-seat versions of the primary fighters would be for airframe specific training.

The way I envision a UNS pilot pipeline: (much like USAF flight school)

Initial flight Screening (IFS) (4 months)

-Non variable basic flight training, from here you'd branch off into VF, Cargo, or Rotary schools

Secondary flight training (6 months)

- Pilots are introduced to a generalized airframe trainer (VF pilots would fly a basic VF, Cargo pilots would be introduced to a small cargo airframe, and rotary pilots would learn to fly a basic helo)

Specialized Flight Training (4 months)

- Pilots are introduced to their assigned airframe

Advanced VF Flight training (4 months) (requires selection course[2 months], and at least 2 years operational experience)

- Seasoned VF pilots are trained to fly higher performance VF's.

All told the pipeline would take approximately 44 months total time from entry to SF pilot.

[Seto Kaiba]

Basically it boils down to the logistical issues. Most fighter and bomber squadrons in the USAF maintain T38's as flight proficiency trainers simply because it costs way too much in maintenance and fuel to fly an f-15/16/22/35 or B-52/2/1 just to maintain flight proficiency (that is in order to get flight hours to stay on flight status). That's why I chose to do that.

That might not necessarily apply to the UN Forces in Macross though... VFs seem to be pretty low-maintenance as aircraft go, and fuel is dirt cheap. They also have distressingly good simulators (seen in Macross 2036, Macross 7, and Macross Frontier) that are able to replicate pretty realistic flight conditions including actual combat.

The VF-4 would be the most similar airframe to the VF-17, VF-19, and VA-3 for training pilots. While the VF-1 is the most basic airframe for learning to fly a VF.

I'm not so sure... the VF-4 has a rather unusual profile and several capabilities that aren't present on many of the later VFs that you listed.

The way I envision a UNS pilot pipeline: (much like USAF flight school)

All told the pipeline would take approximately 44 months total time from entry to SF pilot.

What we see of pilot training in Macross 2036, Macross 7 PLUS, and Macross Frontier, combined with what's mentioned in profiles from Macross VF-X2 would suggest that the VF pilot training program is normally 36 months from entry to assignment, and that the overall trajectory of training is:

Basic & Fitness -> Simulator training (flight and combat) -> Practical flight training -> Active duty

Gamlin made it through that program in 2 years, and problem child Aegis Focker took 4.

The basic training they go through looks like a pretty typical stamina and fitness program with some fundamental marksmanship training worked in (pistols and rifles). Then it's simulator training, apparently on the model of craft that's the standard in the role they'll be filling (for Gamlin it was a VF-11), and then after that onto guided training with an instructor... either flying solo under an instructor or in a tandem craft... before going on to their assignment.

[sketchley]

I appreciate all the replies. So I'll be revising my specs for the upgraded Thunderbolt, no size increase (due to issues raised by Seto) and using the C model as the basis (due to the internal bays). The MAXL could reach orbit on it's own with those engines right? IIRC it can.

Why not use the VF-11MAXL? It's an upgraded VF-11 that's part of the official setting already. It also has a lot of mystique surround it, and appears to have been limited to special forces and other elite groups.

Here's my best guess for it: http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/Stats/Statistics/VF-11/VF11MAXL.php

Adding different kinds airframes simply complicates the logistical train, why not use 2 seat VF-11s as your trainers?

That makes perfect sense. Alas, there's already a precedent for it: in "Macross 7 Trash" (set in the M7 Fleet), VF-4 are shown being used during training.

You could give all the basic fighters jump-seats like the Vf-19 had, everyone can act as combat search and rescue and pick up ejected pilots. In mekton, the second seat costs and takes up the same space as a ejectable cockpit pod does, so it's an easy change.

It'd only require changing the specification to the VF-11D or a derivative of it.

Design EW warfare suites to fit in the leg bays that can also be slotted in for special missions, which lets you take an EW officer in the backseat for special missions. .

Heh... that brings back memories of something whipped up during my RPGing days: http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/Stats/Statistics/Avionics/VFPallet.php

Edited March 2, 2015 by sketchley

[Andras]

With the Three Stars providing consumables, the VFs basically run for free. It would cost more to start and stop production lines for parts for different VFs then to keep banging out VF-11 compatible parts.

But you could use the VF-5000 as a more modern light trainer, it does come in 1 and 2 seat configurations.

Sketchley, I too wrote up a MAXL based VF-11F for my Mekton profiles.

My thought was it gave Shinsei a lower cost fighter to compete with General Galaxies VF171, at a level below the -19 and -22 super fighters, and before the 25 came out.

[Valkyrie Driver]

The thing about using the MAXL custom, is precisely what you said, it was limited to special forces types (I want the VF-11 to be the main line fighter, that is, the Cannon Fodder mecha). I could just use VF-11D's for trainers instead of VF-1's, but it felt right for military academies (prep and post secondary) to use severely outdated equipment (I see ROTC cadets walking around still using old ALICE gear, despite the fact that MOLLE has been the standard for the last 14 years) so it does make sense (when you understand that nothing the military ever does makes any...).

Since I'm going for a bit more realism in the way I'm going to write, I figure I can come up with a good medium, for pilots in my fleet, that way they're a bit better to compensate for the less advanced equipment.

[sketchley]

Not the MAXL Kai, the MAXL.

Mylene's Sound Force fighter is a customization of a MAXL (or the wordy wording: a customization of the MAXL customization of the VF-11).

Compare: http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/Stats/Statistics/VF-11/VF11MAXL.php to http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/Stats/Statistics/VF-11/VF11MAXLKai.php

Edited March 2, 2015 by sketchley

[Valkyrie Driver]

I'm still seeing it said that the MAXL variant is a limited production fighter. Now, nothing says that my fleet couldn't just use that spec as the main line fighter, but it seems to me that the MAXL is supposed to try to keep pace with the more advanced fighters, which is not something I want my cannon fodder mechs doing. I did however want my cannon fodder mechs able to transit atmo, so there's that reason.

[sketchley]

I'm still seeing it said that the MAXL variant is a limited production fighter. Now, nothing says that my fleet couldn't just use that spec as the main line fighter, but it seems to me that the MAXL is supposed to try to keep pace with the more advanced fighters, which is not something I want my cannon fodder mechs doing. I did however want my cannon fodder mechs able to transit atmo, so there's that reason.

Indeed. Officially it's a limited production. You're making a fanfic, so anything goes, right?

That said, you can just out and say that your fleet was one of the few that produced the MAXL in large numbers (like the Galaxy Fleet and the VF-27), or pick and choose the parts you like from it, and apply them as you see fit (eg: replacing the standard engines with downtuned MAXL engines [properly tuned ones are too powerful for the unreinforced airframe of the standard VF-11).

Expanding on that last point, you could say that because the engines are too powerful for the airframes, the near end-of-life-VF-11 were removed from special forces duties, downtuned, and given to the canon fodder pilots to maximize the fleet's investment in them by lengthening their end of life period! (Or the MAXL airframes themselves had to be scrapped due to over-stressing, but the engines were recycled, or something to that effect)

[Andras]

One thing that bugged me while designing the Mekton 11C was the leg had pallets and the leg FAST packs had pallet space too. I decided that was too many pallets, and kept the leg ones and made the FAST packs have shoot through doors (they did keep the rear firing MM launchers)

[Valkyrie Driver]

I see what you're saying. Pallets on top of pallets is kinda silly. However, if you think about it, you just have more missiles for the Itano circus.

[sketchley]

The Super Parts are supposed to be purge-able. So, once their fuel/armament loads are consumed, they get dropped, but the VF-11C still has engine nacelle armaments.

[Seto Kaiba]

One thing that bugged me while designing the Mekton 11C was the leg had pallets and the leg FAST packs had pallet space too. I decided that was too many pallets, and kept the leg ones and made the FAST packs have shoot through doors (they did keep the rear firing MM launchers)

It sounds a little silly, but Macross Plus did show it can work... Isamu's YF-19 No.2 is shown lifting the leg pack with its micro-missiles to expose the door for the internal bay in the leg and its CHM-2 interception missiles.