AVF Upgrade Candidates

[Valkyrie Driver]

I can't read any of it but 1, 3 and 4 are fairly obvious. But what is 2? is that an atmospheric version or something?

I would think that 2 is an atmospheric version, though I'm not entirely sure what 1 is supposed to be. You said it was obvious, but not to me...

[JB0]

I would think that 2 is an atmospheric version, though I'm not entirely sure what 1 is supposed to be. You said it was obvious, but not to me...

If 1 isn't the "no gun" pod variant, I'll eat my hat.

(Spoilers: I don't actually own a hat)

[Valkyrie Driver]

If 1 isn't the "no gun" pod variant, I'll eat my hat.

(Spoilers: I don't actually own a hat)

Youuuuu......

It obviously has no gun, it also has no missile ports, so what is it? Just a straight booster? Or is it packed with ECM gear?

[Seto Kaiba]

So begging the question, How many missiles do the CFT/CWB hold on the 1st Gen VF-19 packs? and assuming the 180 missile figure is correct, the would be 180+? for a total of how many missiles?

I really like the idea of the Frontier style Strike parts, especially on the VF-19Advance, because missiles alone are not enough, sometimes you just need bigger guns...

Which "1st Gen" VF-19 packs do you mean? Thanks to Master File there are three distinct sets of VF-19 FAST packs... there's one that's more or less the same as the VF-11B's (Master File exclusive), the conformal packs for the YF-19/VF-19 1st type, and the one seen in Macross 7 on the VF-19F/S. I suppose technically it's four if we count the one-off VF-19EF/A "ADVANCE".

I can't read any of it but 1, 3 and 4 are fairly obvious. But what is 2? is that an atmospheric version or something?

If 1 isn't the "no gun" pod variant, I'll eat my hat.

(Spoilers: I don't actually own a hat)

#1 is a version of the Super Pack that retains the CIMM-3A launcher assembly but also includes additional fuel tanks for the boosters.

#2 is the (rejected) atmospheric variation of the Strike cannon.

#3 and #4 are your basic Strike package.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Which "1st Gen" VF-19 packs do you mean? Thanks to Master File there are three distinct sets of VF-19 FAST packs... there's one that's more or less the same as the VF-11B's (Master File exclusive), the conformal packs for the YF-19/VF-19 1st type, and the one seen in Macross 7 on the VF-19F/S. I suppose technically it's four if we count the one-off VF-19EF/A "ADVANCE".

The YF-19/VF-19 1st type.

[Seto Kaiba]

The YF-19/VF-19 1st type.

Ah, OK.

All told, the YF/VF-19 1st type's bays have enough room for one pallet each... and the conformal FAST packs add another pallet each. That's twelve HMM-20e's per pallet, for a grand total of 48 between the leg bays and packs. (Plus whatever's hung on the six wing pylons.)

[Valkyrie Driver]

So the VF-19 Advance with the full advance packs carries 224 missiles as full internal payload.

Now those are micro-missiles, how do they stack up in terms of destructive capability? On par with an AIM-9 or AIM-120?

[Seto Kaiba]

So the VF-19 Advance with the full advance packs carries 224 missiles as full internal payload.

Now those are micro-missiles, how do they stack up in terms of destructive capability? On par with an AIM-9 or AIM-120?

The VF-19EF/A Excalibur ADVANCE's payload with the Super Packs it's shown with would be 204 (90 in each booster, 12 in each conformal leg pack) plus the contents of the internal bays in the legs.

My hunch would be that, since the packs on the wings block off most or all of the pylons (I haven't seen the physical model up close, and it's too hard to tell from the CG model), the internal ordinance bays inside of the legs would be used for longer-ranged missiles the way they were in Macross Plus. (Isamu kept the leg bays full of CHM-2's when he took the YF-19 to Earth.)

(The VF-25 has less of a problem on that front.... the NP-FAD-23 leaves 2 or so pylons on each wing clear there.)

[Mr March]

If 1 isn't the "no gun" pod variant, I'll eat my hat.

(Spoilers: I don't actually own a hat)

*makes a note for Xmas*

[Seto Kaiba]

Now those are micro-missiles, how do they stack up in terms of destructive capability? On par with an AIM-9 or AIM-120?

Sorry, I quoted this but forgot to reply to it in my first reply.

As far as the relative strength of the micro-missiles... the OTM-based explosives used in missiles would blow conventional munitions into the weeds. The VF-1's AMM-1A Arrow multipurpose medium-range missile had a 20kg warhead equivalent to 200kg of TNT, based on the one source to actually describe it in depth. Missile technology in Macross has improved a lot since the AMM-1 as well. Those HMM-25 micro-missiles are probably at least as powerful as the AMM-1, and very likely significantly more so (designed, as they were, to be used against something far tougher than even a VF-1).

Edited August 10, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[Valkyrie Driver]

The VF-19EF/A Excalibur ADVANCE's payload with the Super Packs it's shown with would be 204 (90 in each booster, 12 in each conformal leg pack) plus the contents of the internal bays in the legs.

My math was a bit off, 204 in the Advance pack, and then 24 total in the leg bays, for a total of 228 missiles for the full internal payload. That's where I had gotten my number. It was for a full payload including the base fighter.

My hunch would be that, since the packs on the wings block off most or all of the pylons (I haven't seen the physical model up close, and it's too hard to tell from the CG model)

If the VF-19Advance toy is anything to go by (and I have no reason to believe it is not), two hardpoints are left unobstructed on each wing, for a total of 4 hardpoints that are useable.

Clearly the Advance pack and external stores would exceed max takeoff weight, but I suppose that really doesn't matter in space.

[Andras]

Aren't there 46 more missiles in the shoulder packs.

[Seto Kaiba]

My math was a bit off, 204 in the Advance pack, and then 24 total in the leg bays, for a total of 228 missiles for the full internal payload. That's where I had gotten my number. It was for a full payload including the base fighter.

Huh... if the toy is any indication (thank you Andras) the count is higher, with 23 missiles in each shoulder instead of the fuel tanks that normally occupy that position. That'd make it a nice round 250 plus whatever's in the leg bays.

I really, REALLY wonder how in line with Kawamori's intent that toy is right now... I'm not a toy collector myself, so the details of the toy passed me by completely. The official information is painfully sparse.

The Official Complete Book for Macross Frontier: the Wings of Goodbye is says nothing of value about the plane, and declines to even give it a proper identification. Great Mechanics.DX 17 identifies it only as "VF-19 SMS Version", and gives useful info about performance or armament. Macross Chronicle gave it a shared mechanic sheet that gives it a designation (but not the one that's used to promote the toy) and talks about its development, but says nothing whatsoever about its FAST packs. I'm giving serious thought to seeking out the novelization in the hope that it'll have some firm details there (IIRC that's where the "VF-19ADVANCE" designation actually comes from... Macross Chronicle identifies it only as VF-19EF/A "Isamu Special").

Aren't there 46 more missiles in the shoulder packs.

On the toy, that certainly appears to be the case. Thank you for sharing that, I genuinely had no idea that was like that there. The pack looks almost identical to the existing one on the YF-19 that was a fuel tank.

[Sildani]

Wonder when someone will make the other FAST packs for the 25 for the Bandai V2s.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Aren't there 46 more missiles in the shoulder packs.

Those are the Wonderfest exclusive parts from T Rex. The Bandai toy has no such gimmick that opens up. For the record these parts were the ones that gave me the impression that they were supposed to be missile launchers.

Huh... if the toy is any indication (thank you Andras) the count is higher, with 23 missiles in each shoulder instead of the fuel tanks that normally occupy that position. That'd make it a nice round 250 plus whatever's in the leg bays.

I really, REALLY wonder how in line with Kawamori's intent that toy is right now... I'm not a toy collector myself, so the details of the toy passed me by completely. The official information is painfully sparse.

The Official Complete Book for Macross Frontier: the Wings of Goodbye is says nothing of value about the plane, and declines to even give it a proper identification. Great Mechanics.DX 17 identifies it only as "VF-19 SMS Version", and gives useful info about performance or armament. Macross Chronicle gave it a shared mechanic sheet that gives it a designation (but not the one that's used to promote the toy) and talks about its development, but says nothing whatsoever about its FAST packs. I'm giving serious thought to seeking out the novelization in the hope that it'll have some firm details there (IIRC that's where the "VF-19ADVANCE" designation actually comes from... Macross Chronicle identifies it only as VF-19EF/A "Isamu Special").

On the toy, that certainly appears to be the case. Thank you for sharing that, I genuinely had no idea that was like that there. The pack looks almost identical to the existing one on the YF-19 that was a fuel tank.

I just had a glance at the YF-19 FAST pack line art, and there is nothing in the location where that picture has those missile launchers, unless there's some line art somewhere I don't know about (maybe in the master file book?). Like I said the Bandai toy is different, and those were the Wonderfest exclusive parts for the Arcadia YF-19.

[Mommar]

Those are the Wonderfest exclusive parts from T Rex. The Bandai toy has no such gimmick that opens up. For the record these parts were the ones that gave me the impression that they were supposed to be missile launchers.

I just had a glance at the YF-19 FAST pack line art, and there is nothing in the location where that picture has those missile launchers, unless there's some line art somewhere I don't know about (maybe in the master file book?). Like I said the Bandai toy is different, and those were the Wonderfest exclusive parts for the Arcadia YF-19.

To be fair while the Bandai toy's implementation is different from the Arcadia/T-Rex parts it wouldn't lend itself to being fuel tanks either since it snaps into two pieces in Gerwalk and Battroid when the shoulders adjust themselves. I really think the T-Rex interpretation makes more sense as in the animation they look a hell of a lot like the 25 shoulder missile packs. They're already bolting the 25's boosters on, why not bolt the shoulder armor as well? Even if they are covering up the intakes and additional fuel really does make sense, unless they're jettisoned the first time the 19 transforms, it makes far more sense that they adjust themselves in a manner exactly like the 25's shoulder packs for the reasons I stated above.

After watching the animation again I think the Bandai versions are way too small. T-Rex's parts look more in line to me.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Mommar

[Valkyrie Driver]

To be fair while the Bandai toy's implementation is different from the Arcadia/T-Rex parts it wouldn't lend itself to being fuel tanks either since it snaps into two pieces in Gerwalk and Battroid when the shoulders adjust themselves. I really think the T-Rex interpretation makes more sense as in the animation they look a hell of a lot like the 25 shoulder missile packs. They're already bolting the 25's boosters on, why not bolt the shoulder armor as well? Even if they are covering up the intakes and additional fuel really does make sense, unless they're jettisoned the first time the 19 transforms, it makes far more sense that they adjust themselves in a manner exactly like the 25's shoulder packs for the reasons I stated above.

After watching the animation again I think the Bandai versions are way too small. T-Rex's parts look more in line to me.

I knew someone was going to bring that up as soon as I posted it. I agree with your assessment. Besides, who doesn't like MOAR MISSILES! Thing's already carrying 204, what's 46 more? 250! That's what. Who doesn't want 250 missiles to pull off some of the most insane Itano Circus acts evar!

It would have been nice for bandai to have put a bit more thought into that particular thought. I'm actually really glad they didn't decide to go putting a chest armor piece on the fighter too, like on the VF-171 and VF-25 super parts.

[Andras]

Just curious but what's the source for the 12 missiles in each leg for the Advance packs?

[Seto Kaiba]

Wonder when someone will make the other FAST packs for the 25 for the Bandai V2s.

Unless it's fan-made, we probably won't see them until such time as they actually appear in some official Macross show or game.

(The more I consider it, the more I'm miffed that they didn't use the VF-19EF/A in Macross 30 as Isamu's upgrade plane instead of the YF-29.)

I just had a glance at the YF-19 FAST pack line art, and there is nothing in the location where that picture has those missile launchers, unless there's some line art somewhere I don't know about (maybe in the master file book?). Like I said the Bandai toy is different, and those were the Wonderfest exclusive parts for the Arcadia YF-19.

That location's where the VF-11-style FAST packs attach on the Master File version, among other things.

Just curious but what's the source for the 12 missiles in each leg for the Advance packs?

They appear to be pretty much identical to the initial YF-19/VF-19 FAST packs, and those held a B-7 pallet of 12 HMM-20e's each.

[Valkyrie Driver]

That location's where the VF-11-style FAST packs attach on the Master File version, among other things.

VF-11 style fast packs, as in the Missile Launcher/Boosters that we see on the VF-11B/C in Plus/7?

[Seto Kaiba]

VF-11 style fast packs, as in the Missile Launcher/Boosters that we see on the VF-11B/C in Plus/7?

Yeah. They only do that in Master File, and it looks weird as hell... (pages 60-62 of Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur)

[Valkyrie Driver]

I'll see it once my copy comes in.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'll see it once my copy comes in.

I was able to get a decent-ish pic of the image in the book, to give you an idea.

[Valkyrie Driver]

VF-19 with VF-11 FAST Pack.PNG

I was able to get a decent-ish pic of the image in the book, to give you an idea.

That doesn't look bad, but It does leave me scratching my head. How was it supposed to store the booster in gerwalk or battroid modes? Frontier style swing bars? M7 style shoulder kibble? Unwieldy as the VF-19Advance's solution is, at least it isn't top heavy...

It appears to just be the VF-11 boosters right?

[Seto Kaiba]

That doesn't look bad, but It does leave me scratching my head. How was it supposed to store the booster in gerwalk or battroid modes? Frontier style swing bars? M7 style shoulder kibble? Unwieldy as the VF-19Advance's solution is, at least it isn't top heavy...

It appears to just be the VF-11 boosters right?

M7-style "shoulder kibble" would be my guess... it's in the same section as the M7 FAST pack.

But yes, it does look to be the exact same booster model used on the VF-11B (not the economized model used on the VF-11C).

[Valkyrie Driver]

M7-style "shoulder kibble" would be my guess... it's in the same section as the M7 FAST pack.

But yes, it does look to be the exact same booster model used on the VF-11B (not the economized model used on the VF-11C).

That's unfortunate, as I really hated the way M7 did the boosters on the VF-19. It would have been better if they'd just left them off. It just seemed a bit phoned in.

The VF-11 style packs in that picture are VF-11B boosters (I agree), I was trying to ask if that arrangement was the standard 1st gen packs with the booster added to it. That was my question, and my bad for not wording it quite the way I had intended.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Valkyrie Driver

[Seto Kaiba]

That's unfortunate, as I really hated the way M7 did the boosters on the VF-19. It would have been better if they'd just left them off. It just seemed a bit phoned in.

Yeah... definitely not a favorite of mine either. I shed no tears at their exclusion from Macross 30.

The VF-11 style packs in that picture are VF-11B boosters (I agree), I was trying to ask if that arrangement was the standard 1st gen packs with the booster added to it. That was my question, and my bad for not wording it quite the way I had intended.

Oh, yeah... as pictured in the picture I posted, it's the same YF-19-style FAST pack arrangement but with the boosters added.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Yeah... definitely not a favorite of mine either. I shed no tears at their exclusion from Macross 30.

I'm glad that failed abortion of an idea died with M7.

Oh, yeah... as pictured in the picture I posted, it's the same YF-19-style FAST pack arrangement but with the boosters added.

I thought so, but I wanted to make sure. I have a VF-11C, maybe I can rig something up for a display. It looks goofy as hell, given how the VF-19 is made of sex appeal.

I think if you picked a single character from Macross, to represent the Y/VF-19, it would be Lucy...

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm glad that failed abortion of an idea died with M7.

It definitely wasn't the most sound design choice ever made... esp. since those were supposed to be atmospheric-use packs.

I thought so, but I wanted to make sure. I have a VF-11C, maybe I can rig something up for a display. It looks goofy as hell, given how the VF-19 is made of sex appeal.

I think if you picked a single character from Macross, to represent the Y/VF-19, it would be Lucy...

IIRC, it was Sheryl Nome who got made into a YF-19 mecha musume in Macross Chronicle.

[Mommar]

M7-style "shoulder kibble" would be my guess... it's in the same section as the M7 FAST pack.

I am not so sure about that. If you look on pages 96 and 97 in the VF-19 Master File book the boosters are clearly attached to pylons that angle in towards the central part of the fighter that become the Torso/head area. There's no indication they attach to the shoulders in the same manner at all. If anything it would make more sense (and look better... minus Gerwalk, then again it's the 19) that those pylons would rotate about and fit the boosters flat against the 19's back in Battroid. And on the later 19 models there are actually flaps that cover the gap between the head and shield that fold down in Battroid, where the pylons could attach, and rotate down behind the shoulders instead of stuck out at the ends of the shoulder pads like the atmospheric parts from M7 do.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Mommar

[Valkyrie Driver]

IIRC, it was Sheryl Nome who got made into a YF-19 mecha musume in Macross Chronicle.

That may be so, but I think Lucy is a better fit. Tall, slender, shapely legs and nicely proportioned. Sheryl is just too oversexualized, as much as I like Sheryl, she's just not the fit for the YF-19 that Lucy is in my opinion. Also the use of Sheryl was probably a marketing ploy...

I am not so sure about that. If you look on pages 96 and 97 in the VF-19 Master File book the boosters are clearly attached to pylons that angle in towards the central part of the fighter that become the Torso/head area. There's no indication they attach to the shoulders in the same manner at all. If anything it would make more sense (and look better... minus Gerwalk, then again it's the 19) that those pylons would rotate about and fit the boosters flat against the 19's back in Battroid. And on the later 19 models there are actually flaps that cover the gap between the head and shield that fold down in Battroid, where the pylons could attach, and rotate down behind the shoulders instead of stuck out at the ends of the shoulder pads like the atmospheric parts from M7 do.

You might be on to something there. Still, putting boosters on the 19 is a dicey proposition, because it's going to look weird no matter how you do it.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I'm still shaky on how the EX gear system works. I know it functions as combat armor outside of the Fighter. I know it functions as the fighter's primary controls in side the fighter. Other than that it's supposed to make it as though you're wearing the fighter, but how exactly is that supposed to work?

[Seto Kaiba]

That may be so, but I think Lucy is a better fit. Tall, slender, shapely legs and nicely proportioned. Sheryl is just too oversexualized, as much as I like Sheryl, she's just not the fit for the YF-19 that Lucy is in my opinion. Also the use of Sheryl was probably a marketing ploy...

Lucy's kinda... minor... for such a major plane.

I'm still shaky on how the EX gear system works. I know it functions as combat armor outside of the Fighter. I know it functions as the fighter's primary controls in side the fighter. Other than that it's supposed to make it as though you're wearing the fighter, but how exactly is that supposed to work?

The exact specifics of how EX-Gear improves piloting control precision are unknown, but a brief explanation of the basic mechanism is given in Macross Chronicle (Technology Sheet 17B: "EX-Gear") and in Great Mechanics.DX 9.

Apart from the suit providing the basic controls (pedals, throttle, stick), there's learning computer in the system that combines the input from the conventional controls with input from electromyographic (EMG) sensors which track impulses in the pilot's muscles and recorded data of the pilot's particular style of flying to improve responsiveness and ease of control while also providing some tactile feedback through the controls to the pilot so the pilot can "feel" the airframe response directly (providing the feel of the aircraft being a direct extension of the pilot's body).

[Valkyrie Driver]

Lucy's kinda... minor... for such a major plane.

True, but you know I'm right. Maybe a Lucy pinup noseart decal for the VF-19 should be a thing...

The exact specifics of how EX-Gear improves piloting control precision are unknown, but a brief explanation of the basic mechanism is given in Macross Chronicle (Technology Sheet 17B: "EX-Gear") and in Great Mechanics.DX 9.

Apart from the suit providing the basic controls (pedals, throttle, stick), there's learning computer in the system that combines the input from the conventional controls with input from electromyographic (EMG) sensors which track impulses in the pilot's muscles and recorded data of the pilot's particular style of flying to improve responsiveness and ease of control while also providing some tactile feedback through the controls to the pilot so the pilot can "feel" the airframe response directly (providing the feel of the aircraft being a direct extension of the pilot's body).

The force feedback thing does explain how it gives the pilot the sensation of wearing the fighter.

[Valkyrie Driver]

IIRC, it was Sheryl Nome who got made into a YF-19 mecha musume in Macross Chronicle.

That may be so, but I think Lucy is a better fit. Tall, slender, shapely legs and nicely proportioned. Sheryl is just too oversexualized, as much as I like Sheryl, she's just not the fit for the YF-19 that Lucy is in my opinion. Also the use of Sheryl was probably a marketing ploy...

I'm revisiting this, because after watching the first frontier movie, and seeing Sheryl again, I can definitely see that. She is a celebrity after all, perfect pinup fodder...