AVF Upgrade Candidates

[Valkyrie Driver]

Agreed, you can never have enough ammo...

[GuardianGrey]

I understand what Mr. March is saying, that is why (It seems I started this whole VF melee weapon thing) with the Idea of the extending baton/rod (slide pieces could be point elliptical to be blade like on extension) made with the energy-converting material that is in the armor & reinforced with the PPB for a light-weight large damage-arc melee weapon.

If a said unit with would be facing another VF with PPB, it might as well leave it sheathed; for the other units PPB would cancel most of the advantage, as well as the disadvantage of the loss ordinance/systems that were removed/left-out for space/weight of the melee weapon.

While going against transient Zentradi operations, renegade units with older style VFs or even possible the Vajra; then the advantage might be there, though needs to be balanced with the requirements of the mission.

Seeing you comrade blown away via gunpod is one thing, seeing their unit hacked up into nonfunctioning pile of scrap while they are in it causes great psychological effects (for good or ill; see the fear on the NUNS pilots as the Small Vajra units get within striking distance with that tail).

Now, with the future speculation said, let us look at mecha-scaled melee weapons over the course of the Macross Continuum (there may be errors/omissions);

1. During Macross ZERO, Shin's gun-pod jammed and he discarded/threw it towards Nova's SV-51 (improvised thrown melee weapon)
2. In the original series of SDFM, the Spartan can have a mace, though I do not ever recall seeing it in the animation
3. Again in SDFM, Max uses his gun-pod as improvised baton/rod to restrain Britai and then take him outside the ship.
4. Another scene in SDFM, Britai using a pipe as an improvised melee weapon on the head turret of Ichijo's VF-1J
5. Then in Macross Plus, we see a VF-11B Super Thunderbolt, piloted by Isamu, that is gun-pod with a flip-blade bayonet option
6. Later in Macross Plus has Isamu using his GU-15 gun-pod as a club on the VF-22 after it 'jams'
7. During the battle with the SDF-1 in Macross Plus, Isamu uses the shield enhanced with the PPBS to pull a Valkyrie version of the Daedalus attack
8. Macross R: The Ride has us see the YF-25 Prophecy with the Super Paladin Parts, including the BL/VF-X1 Blaze Lance & the ability to place the PPBS anywhere there is energy converting armor (first pic of thumbnails).
9. In Macross Frontier we see that the VF-25 & YF-29 has the Assault Knife, though it is not made clear if that is continued with the YF-30
10. The VF-27 Lucifer of Macross Frontier has a retractable blade housed within its shield
11. As part of the repaints of the YF-29 Durandal, the Isamu Kai has both the Assault Knife and an retractable bayonet on the underside of the Heavy Quantum Beam Gun-pod (second picture of thumbnails).

------- Back to Topic Subject------------

Even though not of Macross, Shoji Kawamori did a series of mecha designs called Air Cavalry Chronicles (which was a pitch for the Mecha design for the development of Escaflowne, that was rejected though later inspired Macross VF units) has a design that I think JBO (for a F-104 style) & anime52k8 might like; the LV-7 Valorous Rapier "Excalibur" (course line-art of Battriod & Fighter modes in thumbnails)

Edited March 15, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[JB0]

I think the pin-point barrier systems might also serve to discourage melee combat in Macross. The PPB doesn't make mecha invulnerable, but it does make mecha more difficult to damage and significantly increase time to kill. It's much easier and more efficient to defeat a PPB with more destructive attacks like bullets, beams/lasers or missiles than it would be to punch or kick through it (excluding PPB enhanced knives or bayonets).

One other aspect that impacts melee mecha weapons that we haven't considered is weight. Mounting something like a mecha-sized sword, spear or axe is going to add a lot of weight to any valkyrie. It's make more sense to simply lose the added weight of a mecha-sized melee weapon altogether to ensure optimal performance. Or if one has to keep the weight, it would be better spent on more munitions for the exisitng weapons (more bullets, more missiles or extra energy capacitors for beam guns or pin-point barrier power).

You could tech it up a bit. Instead of a metal spear, have a plasma spear. The weapon is lightweight, because it's basically just a giant blowtorch.

[anime52k8]

I think the pin-point barrier systems might also serve to discourage melee combat in Macross. The PPB doesn't make mecha invulnerable, but it does make mecha more difficult to damage and significantly increase time to kill. It's much easier and more efficient to defeat a PPB with more destructive attacks like bullets, beams/lasers or missiles than it would be to punch or kick through it (excluding PPB enhanced knives or bayonets).

you could also use the PPB as a reason why you'd need to enguage in melee combat. (I'm not saying this is how it works in canon, but you could use this as an argument) it could easily be claimed that the PPB is best at absorbing energy from heat, radiation and velocity, but not from mass. So beam weapons can be easily defeated as they're all thermal energy with negligible mass, a bullet can be stopped because it's very high velocity with relatively low mass, but a big ass heavy blade moving at a relatively low speed would be harder for the PPB to stop and it would more directly damage the armor.

[JB0]

And that would be a great narrative conceit if you wanted to turn Macross into Gundam. I suspect the franchise would more likely swing the other way and claim PPBs are better at blocking high-mass, low-velocity attacks, thereby making them excel against melee combat and further marginalizing it.

...

Of course, the real problem is that Macross very rarely has VF VS VF combat. Aliens don't care what we built our fighters to take.

[Valkyrie Driver]

you could also use the PPB as a reason why you'd need to enguage in melee combat. (I'm not saying this is how it works in canon, but you could use this as an argument) it could easily be claimed that the PPB is best at absorbing energy from heat, radiation and velocity, but not from mass. So beam weapons can be easily defeated as they're all thermal energy with negligible mass, a bullet can be stopped because it's very high velocity with relatively low mass, but a big ass heavy blade moving at a relatively low speed would be harder for the PPB to stop and it would more directly damage the armor.

Any Dune Fans out there...

"Remember, it is the slow blade that pierces the shield..."

I should ask this, does the VF-171 take advantage of AVF technologies? Can it transit Atmo? Does it utilize the Cockpit arrangement from the YF-19? Does it use the PPBS? If not, could it be made to? Is it not classified as an AVF because it's only using tech established from the 1st gen AVF's (Y/VF-19 and YF-21 & VF-22) and not the cutting edge stuff from the 2nd gen (YF-24, VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, YF-30)?

[GuardianGrey]

I might be wrong (and I know I will be correct on any error), when UN Spacey became NUNS (New Unity Nations Spacey) the needed a cheap/new frontline fighter.

The VF-171 Nightmare Plus was based off the VF-17 Nightmare, following links good for more information for you, Valkyrie Driver, though most of the answers to your questions are 'yes';

• http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossf/vf-171.htm Macross Mecha Manual's entry on the VF-171
• http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-171_Nightmare_Plus The Macross Compendium's posting of

---------- Continuing With Topic ----------

http://www.vf-research.com/introduce/VF-0/VAL-0B/VAL-0B.htm

Since everyone has been focused on a Melee optional upgrade for AVF consideration, I thought the opposite and brought out a unit for consideration that got no screen time in Marcoss ZERO, the VAL-0B!

With the modification/rebuilding that became the VF-0kai (Macross R) by L.A.I. for the Vanquish Races, why not place that technical know-how into a dedicated weapons platform. My dream modifications would be;

1. start like the VF-0kai; with a frame rebuild with lighter/stronger materials, powered by two FF-3001A (or two FF-3001/FC1) turbines & adding active-stealth.
2. upgrade all of the energy/laser weapons (High-Output upgrade to the head laser, change the arm units to variable quantum beam guns) & convert the power unit on the back to another FF-3001A (or a FF-3003J/FC1) turbine.
3. install an ISC (or an IVCS, at least) along with a PPBS (that can cover any SWAG Energy Conversion Armor); with the third turbine (especially the higher out-put units in parentheses), there should be more than enough power in all modes
4. EX-Gear control for the Pilot & RIO, allow RIO to control one/multiple Ghost drone-fighter(s)

--- reading my list ---

Is it just me, or did I (in a round-about way) just purpose an upgrade/new-model off the YF-25 Prophecy (which has many of these features with the Paladin Super-parts/FAST-packs) like the development of the YF-29 Durandal from the VF-25 Messiah?

Edited March 15, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Seto Kaiba]

I should ask this, does the VF-171 take advantage of AVF technologies? Can it transit Atmo? Does it utilize the Cockpit arrangement from the YF-19? Does it use the PPBS? If not, could it be made to? Is it not classified as an AVF because it's only using tech established from the 1st gen AVF's (Y/VF-19 and YF-21 & VF-22) and not the cutting edge stuff from the 2nd gen (YF-24, VF-25, VF-27, YF-29, YF-30)?

The VF-171 is an AVF, yes... it has the key hallmarks of the AVF generation (fold booster compatibility, pinpoint barrier, etc.).

I might be wrong (and I know I will be correct on any error), when UN Spacey became NUNS (New Unity Nations Spacey) the needed a cheap/new frontline fighter.

Couple corrections...

• There's no "e" in "UN SPACY".

• The UN isn't "Unity Nations", it's just "Unity" (or "Unified", or "Unification") Government/Forces/etc. I tend to prefer the latter, though "Unified" is, I think, the closest literal translation of the term.

• Development of the VF-171 began before the governmental and military reorganization, due to difficulties and various complications involving the adoption (and export) of the VF-19 and/or VF-22.

Since everyone has been focused on a Melee optional upgrade for AVF consideration, I thought the opposite and brought out a unit for consideration that got no screen time in Marcoss ZERO, the VAL-0B!

Er... I'm pretty sure that's an unofficial Macross design from Character Model magazine, circa 2004. I believe it was part of an article called "Macross Zero VFERR" (short for "Variable Fighter Experimental Requirements Review".

EDIT: Yeah, Macross Chronicle puts it in the same category as the Schneegans and Schneeblume.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[Valkyrie Driver]

So the VF-171 does everything the VF-19 set out to do, only not as good but cheaper?

[GuardianGrey]

That be the short of it, Valkyrie Driver.

Though, to make it more manageable for the newer pilots, the statistic (from Macross Mecha Manual) of the VF-171 Nightmare Plus are weaker than the VF-17 Nightmare The VF-17 had everything which were required of an AVF craft, though it had passive stealth instead of Active Stealth System and was made 2 years after the start of the AVF trails.

Thank you, Seto Kaiba, I am getting use to any error correction being caught by you.

I can not find reference on this so you might know; even though it does not need it with Active Stealth System, does the VF-171 retain the passive stealth of the original Nightmare units?

Though, I did not know that there was another Variable Fighter Experimental publication with Macross Zero, only the site that I had linked beneath my composite were I found the original pictures/scans.

I did not find any references of said publications on the site's pages linking up to (though I was using Google Translate &/or WorldLingo for translations), so it may have been a simple error.

On the subject of a AVF (or greater level) upgrade candidate, Seto Kaiba, do you think that a VF all energy weapons platform as I laid out would be plausible route of development?

Edited March 15, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Seto Kaiba]

So the VF-171 does everything the VF-19 set out to do, only not as good but cheaper?

More or less... we don't know if it uses the same ARIEL avionics package as the VF-19, and its engines are actually an improved (detuned) version of the VF-17's, but it's got the important bits like the 3rd Generation active stealth package, the pinpoint barrier system, fold booster capability, etc. The EX variant actually used the same engines as a VF-19 (FF-2550F).

In a way, the Nightmare Plus actually has a few advantages over the higher-spec VF-19 in that it can be adapted to do pretty much anything.

I can not find reference on this so you might know; even though it does not need it with Active Stealth System, does the VF-171 retain the passive stealth of the original Nightmare units?

They're using the same generation active stealth tech as the production VF-19.

Though, I did not know that there was another Variable Fighter Experimental publication with Macross Zero, only the site that I had linked beneath my composite were I found the original pictures/scans.

Yeah, Kawamori did a few pieces with not-official-setting material in Character Model, the better known one is VF-Experiment and the VFERR thing gets overlooked a lot. The VFERR article was written as a sort of post-Operation Iconoclasm retrospective of the VF-0 Phoenix and captured SV-51s, and had a couple odd things like an AI-guided cruise missile with micro-missile launchers.

I did not find any references of said publications on the site's pages linking up to (though I was using Google Translate &/or WorldLingo for translations), so it may have been a simple error.

I wasn't able to find any either, so it may be that the site's author just doesn't care about sourcing... especially in a series as loosey-goosey about continuity as Macross.

On the subject of a AVF (or greater level) upgrade candidate, Seto Kaiba, do you think that a VF all energy weapons platform as I laid out would be plausible route of development?

In all honesty, I'm not certain that the VF-0 design is compatible with ISC or that it could withstand the strain of a THIRD FF-3001 engine... though the VF-0 Custom already had AVF-grade high-output laser weapons. It used the same model on the VF-25.

[sketchley]

The VF-171 Nightmare Plus was based off the VF-17 Nightmare, following links good for more information for you, Valkyrie Driver, though most of the answers to your questions are 'yes';

• http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossf/vf-171.htm Macross Mecha Manual's entry on the VF-171
• http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-171_Nightmare_Plus The Macross Compendium's posting of

And don't forget:

http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/Stats/Statistics/VF-171/VF171.php (stuff in green is official, stuff in steelblue is semi-official)

and you can find a bunch more info browsing around here:

http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/

(and as Macross Chronicle and Great Mechanics.DX keep cropping up in recent topics these days, the direct links for their TOC's):

http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/OTgreatmechanicsDX.php

http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/MCindex.php

[GuardianGrey]

I really wish I knew either how to get Quotes to work for me, or why it (and other reply options) does not seem to work with my system.

________________________________

Okay, Seto Kaiba, you answered what I already know. I know that the VF-171 uses the same active stealth that the VF-19 uses (which should make the next question mute)..

What I was asking was did the design changes from the VF-17 Nightmare to make the VF-171 Nightmare Plus negate the passive stealth that was in the original design?

Or another way, Did the redesign of that made the VF-171 possible, (officially in the series) destroy the passive stealth nature that was in the airframe?

________________________________

Well, Seto Kaiba, I will have to agree that the main VF-0 Phoenix design (including the mix-build of the VF-0kai Zeak) has the space for neither the ISC, nor IVCS.

That was why I thought that placing the unit for said in the pod on the back would be best (that is an actual part of the craft & is not a FAST-pack, at least by the read I did off the site)

On an original VF-0B frame, again I would fully agree with you, Seto Kaiba, that it would not be able to handle the FF-3001A turbines (they were originally designed for two FF-2001) though my inspiration was the VF-0A Phoenix "Angel" with this addition as a permanent feature to the new craft.

The first thing I stated was, "start like the VF-0kai; with a frame rebuild with lighter/stronger materials..." though I can see your view-point that it seems the Pod area were the third turbine (with the ISC & PPBS units) would be placed might not have enough structure to support its use.
That was why (In parentheses) I suggested the FF-3003J/FC1 for the third engine, it has lower thrust rating (1,470 KN) than the FF-3001A (which has 1,620 KN)

Yes, Seto Kaiba, the Zeak did get an upgrade from a Mauler Laser cannon (assumed to be the ROV-20 of the VF-1) to a Mauler ROV-217C.

Though, with the VAL-0B's head turret, I was thinking something bigger, or a Variable Lens (sweeping &/or "shotgun" ability) set-up for the unit.

I am honestly surprised that no one seemed to notice/care that I called for the replacement of the (assumed) Mauler Laser Cannons in the arm units to be replaced by a variable quantum beam gun per arm. So, that would be two beam cannons; though (I would have) the total damage output would only be (at maximum variants, with both firing simultaneously) at 10% more than the Howard/L.A.I. HPB-01A Heavy Quantum Beam Gun-pod maximum output (which would not happen often, due to strain on the turbines).

Another is that it is to be a two-seater so the second operator can possible fly/operate drones.

________________________________

I have not had the ability to access for viewing Macross Frontier (Have heard reviews that it is a bomb on story, though I am interested in it for Mecha designs), and can the HPB-01A fire at a lower setting or is it always the 'destroy everything' blast setting?

Even though Macross R was suppose to be about racing, I can imagine a reason for L.A.I. help make the VF-0kai Zeak, both for product development & testing. If there was a way to expand it to include the ISC/IVCS & possible EX-gear, many colony worlds would 'love' return of the classic style of the original Valkyrie, with the performance comparable to the newest fighters and (hopefully cheaper/easier to make) very competitively priced.

Edited March 16, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[JB0]

Okay, Seto Kaiba, you answered what I already know. I know that the VF-171 uses the same active stealth that the VF-19 uses (which should make the next question mute)..

What I was asking was did the design changes from the VF-17 Nightmare to make the VF-171 Nightmare Plus negate the passive stealth that was in the original design?

Or another way, Did the redesign of that made the VF-171 possible, (officially in the series) destroy the passive stealth nature that was in the airframe?

It SHOULDN'T have lost it's passive stealth nature. I won't swear that it didn't, but it shouldn't have.

Most passive stealth technologies are tied closely to the shape of the vehicle and materials used, at least in the real world.

[GuardianGrey]

I understand that, JBO, which is why I was trying to ask Seto Kaiba if there is any official word about it.

With the Active Stealth System, the VF-171 Nightmare Plus would have no need if the systems are operating correctly. Though if for some reason that said system would fail, the passive stealth might help the pilot stay alive, but they may have to jettison any added equipment to retain/maintain a stealth profile. For, let us face facts, if the VF-171EX Super Nightmare Plus lost Active Stealth, the non-conformal Super-parts would increase the radar signature effectively showing were the unit is.

It has been found out that even with conformal/stealth-designed add-on, the F-35 radar cross-section increases, though that is without the benefit of Macross' Overtechnoloy.

That is, of course, understandable if one looks at the situation with the understanding of passive stealth intricacies

________________________________

Oh, JBO, I found some rough line-art that was not official to the Macross Continuum, though was drafted by Shoji Kawamori (that did the majority of the mech-design for Macross) for Air Cavalry Chronicles, I thought the fighter-mode there of you might like. though it would need polish. I will repost them here;

The fighter-mode looks dissimilar to that of the F-104 Starfighter's airframe that you wanted to see in a VF. So, I how you like what I found.

Edited March 16, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Mr March]

JBO

Sounds like a great additional weapon for the Stampede Valkyrie

anime52k8

For sure, one theory is as good as another., Personally, I think given the crazy firepower levels of the Valkyrie weapons, I'd have a difficult time seeing a punch or kick from a Battroid even coming close. I was just trying to rationalize when melee is de-emphasized in the Macross universe. But who even knows how those PPB even works.

[JB0]

I understand that, JBO, which is why I was trying to as Seto Kaiba if there is any official word about it.

Ah.

Well, never mind, then.

With the Active Stealth System, the VF-171 Nightmare Plus would have no need if the systems are operating correctly.

Assuming active stealth is less than 100% perfect, passive stealth provides additional gains. Perhaps not worthwhile gains, but... the VF-171 may well be the hardest Valk to find in the entire galaxy!

Oh, JBO, I found some rough line-art that was not official to the Macross Continuum, though was drafted by Shoji Kawamori (that did the majority of the mech-design for Macross) for Air Cavalry Chronicles, I thought the fighter-mode there of you might like. though it would need polish. I will repost them here;

The fighter-mode looks dissimilar to that of the F-104 Starfighter's airframe that you wanted to see in a VF. So, I how you like what I found.

<3

I love it!

[GuardianGrey]

Then, you are welcome, JBO.

________________________________

You have a point there, Mr. March, on your response to anime52k8. For I also have no clue on how the Pin-Point Barrier (PPB) works, though have allot of theories.

• In SDFM, with the introduction of Pin-point Barrier System (PBS), it seemed that ANY attack (physical or energy) was negated if it came in contact with a PPB 'ball'.
  I originally chalks that up due to the control/generating area of the system being that of the missing Fold Drive, and it was somehow 'teleported' into "Super-Dimensional Space."
• With the Dadalus Attack latter that same episode of SDFM threw the "Super-Dimensional Space" theory out, for the area touched by the PPB should have been 'teleported' away and not crashed/pushed into.
  My theory at this point is that it is a form of Electro-magnetic Field, that disrupts the flow of electrons & atomic bindings of molecules, which causes solid physical objects to weaken or 'dissolve' depending on the amount of mass there of.
  As a side-effect to the solid mass disruption, the plasmatic residue of said is held within the field distorting any energy based attacks to nothing.
  The fields carrying capacity of plasmatic residue/barrier is limited to the amount of energy it has, and any residue over the barrier's carrying capacity is allowed to dissipate.
  Also, the plasmatic residue with alter the light in the area (usually lightening the area)
  
• Then comes Macross Plus, and the lovely fight scene between Isamu (in the YF-19) & Guld (in the YF-21) which punches holes (almost literally) in my theory. The shield on the YF-21 does as my theory seems to say as Isamu shoots at Guld, though the punches seem to do no physical damage to either unit. Heck, the double punch the YF-19 did threw the YF-21 backwards a few city blocks.
  On this all I can figure is that the Electro-Magnetic field effect of the BBP is negated by the energy wave from the SWAG armor, and the added velocity of that impact was due to "like poles" in the field & armor cycling repelling each other at that point in time on top of the punch itself (dumb luck factor).
  With said, it could be surmised that either the same should happen if two PPBs impacted, or that they would totally negate, each other.
  
• Finally we have the scene in Macross Plus with Guld deflecting an energy based attack.
  Due the output of the energy weapon, the beam is only partly dissipated, the remainder of was deflected like a mirror (with the dissipated percentage being absorbed into the field's plasma to assist with. Red reflects red logic)

As I have not seen any full instalment of Macross 7 or Macross Frontier, I can not speculate on how it might have changed my feelings/theory of BPS & PPB.

Other than the why the effect of the BBP on the Vajra's natural energy converting armored hides, different wavelengths due to mechanical & biological systems is the simplest answer.

Edited March 16, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Andras]

Wait, I thought the VF171 was supposed to have a 7 barrel gun-pod like the VF17, that image above shows 8.

[Valkyrie Driver]

The toy even has the anime accurate 8 barrels. That might just be a continuity error.

[Seto Kaiba]

What I was asking was did the design changes from the VF-17 Nightmare to make the VF-171 Nightmare Plus negate the passive stealth that was in the original design?

Or another way, Did the redesign of that made the VF-171 possible, (officially in the series) destroy the passive stealth nature that was in the airframe?

Nope, it's still a perfectly viable passively-stealthy airframe... but that passive stealth is degraded somewhat by hanging bombs and missiles off the wings, etc., which the active stealth system compensates for.

Well, Seto Kaiba, I will have to agree that the main VF-0 Phoenix design (including the mix-build of the VF-0kai Zeak) has the space for neither the ISC, nor IVCS.

The ISC is not supposed to actually be all that large... it fits inside the nose of the VF-25 with everything else in there. The catch I'm thinking of is that various sources (Macross Chronicle, Great Mechanics.DX, etc.) have mentioned that certain airframes simply are not compatible with the ISC. No context is given to explain what the compatibility issue is, but the VF-0 Custom "Zeak" isn't listed as having one in Macross the Ride and the VF-171 is said to be flat-out incompatible. (Curiously, the VF-19 IS compatible...)

Yes, Seto Kaiba, the Zeak did get an upgrade from a Mauler Laser cannon (assumed to be the ROV-20 of the VF-1) to a Mauler ROV-217C.

Though, with the VAL-0B's head turret, I was thinking something bigger, or a Variable Lens (sweeping &/or "shotgun" ability) set-up for the unit.

I'd have thought the existing lasers would be more than sufficient for anti-missile duty, and since AVFs have anti-beam coatings, I can't imagine who such a large, diffuse laser weapon would be useful against...

I am honestly surprised that no one seemed to notice/care that I called for the replacement of the (assumed) Mauler Laser Cannons in the arm units to be replaced by a variable quantum beam gun per arm.

We know that the quantum beam cannons can be made fairly small... the only question is "is there enough juice to power it?". We know a third engine could conceivably power one full size one... so two cut-down ones might not be that big a stretch.

I have not had the ability to access for viewing Macross Frontier (Have heard reviews that it is a bomb on story, though I am interested in it for Mecha designs), and can the HPB-01A fire at a lower setting or is it always the 'destroy everything' blast setting?

The quantum beam gun pods that the VF-27, YF-29, and YF-30 use appear to have the same basic setup... their default mode is a "beam machinegun" type rapid fire weapon, and they have a heavier "beam grenade" mode which just seems to fire a much bigger blast.

(Admittedly, in Macross 30, beam grenade mode was replaced by a sort of beam sniper mode for consistency across the other VFs, who all somehow got the SSL-9B Dragunov as their alt gunpod.

Even though Macross R was suppose to be about racing, I can imagine a reason for L.A.I. help make the VF-0kai Zeak, both for product development & testing. If there was a way to expand it to include the ISC/IVCS & possible EX-gear, many colony worlds would 'love' return of the classic style of the original Valkyrie, with the performance comparable to the newest fighters and (hopefully cheaper/easier to make) very competitively priced.

Actually, I think it probably had a lot more to do with the same thing they were having SMS's Chelsea Scarlett and the NUNS special forces "Round Table" do... test hardware for the VF-25 under field conditions.

You have a point there, Mr. March, on your response to anime52k8. For I also have no clue on how the Pin-Point Barrier (PPB) works, though have allot of theories.

The official word from Macross Chronicle and Great Mechanics.DX is that pinpoint barrier systems produce a focused distortion of space-time... the gist being that it's essentially warping space to create a region matter and energy can't pass through. sketchley would probably know more about this than me, since he's done some work on Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur.

Wait, I thought the VF171 was supposed to have a 7 barrel gun-pod like the VF17, that image above shows 8.

Yeah, it shows 8... the VF-171 is said to have two optional gun pods, one is MC-17C and the other is GU-14B, IINM. I think the 8-barrel version is probably the latter.

[Mr March]

GreyGuardian

A very interesting breakdown. I would definitely recommend watching Macross 7 and Macross Frontier, as both shows feature more instances of the Pin-Point Barrier, both upon spaceships and valkyries.

I should have clarified what I said about the Pin-Point Barrier. I do understand the basic official definition of a PPB and how it works in the context of the Macross universe. I’m just unclear how WELL it works. I don’t know how much energy it uses, how much firepower it can repel, how long it can be deployed, et cetera. I just thought that given its very nature, it could have been a plausible deterrent to melee attacks that would jive with the world building of the Macross fiction.

Firepower in Macross just seems so much greater than conventional arms, I figure even a giant metal fist wouldn’t cause nearly as much damage as a gun pod shot or a micro-missile. In Macross, the Valkyries fly around with armor as strong as tank. A Hellfire, AMRAMM or typical 20 mm vulcan lacks the firepower to barely scratch that, if it could even fly/shoot fast enough to strike something as fast and maneuverable as a Variable Fighter. So Macross mecha weapons need to be much faster and more powerful to be effective. If we are to believe the translated figures provided in books like “M.A.T. Sky Angels Volume #3: Extra Journal: VF-1 Valkyrie” and the “Variable Fighter Master File” series, Macross missiles have more explosive firepower than strategic bombs and Macross gun pods are many times more powerful than the deadliest tank cannon.

Calculations using those published figures place a one-second burst of the GU-11 Gun Pod at 97 MJ of energy and an AMM-1 Missile at 840 MJ of energy. For a real world comparison, the tank cannon on a M1A1 Abrams can unleash 12 MJ per shot.

[Seto Kaiba]

I should have clarified what I said about the Pin-Point Barrier. I do understand the basic official definition of a PPB and how it works in the context of the Macross universe. I’m just unclear how WELL it works. I don’t know how much energy it uses, how much firepower it can repel, how long it can be deployed, et cetera. I just thought that given its very nature, it could have been a plausible deterrent to melee attacks that would jive with the world building of the Macross fiction.

By all accounts, the energy consumption of a pinpoint barrier system is pretty ridiculous... there's a little inconsistency between sources, but they agree that the system on the YF/VF-19 consumes more than half (60-70%) of the VF's generator output.

Mind you, for what you get, that seems like a bargain. We've seen that a pinpoint-barrier equipped VF can smash its way through a ship's internal bulkheads, stop direct hits from the New Standard gun pods of the first AVF generation, protect the (relatively) delicate mechanisms of a VF's hands from breaking when pilots resort to fisticuffs, and on the VF-25 they're even shown to be able to blunt most of the impact of an anti-capital ship beam cannon...

[Andras]

Ok, so to clarify the VF-171 gun-pod situation, it can have either the MC-17C or a GU-14B

The VF-17 has the MC-17A, which had 7x 40mm barrels, so the MC-17C seems to be a version of that gunpod.

Has a VF-171 ever used a beam adapter like the VF-17 had? Maybe the MC-17C is a simpler unit that doesn't have that ability.

The GU-14B seems to have 8 barrels. Does anyone know the bore diameter of the GU-14B?

Thanks.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Andras

[Seto Kaiba]

Has a VF-171 ever used a beam adapter like the VF-17 had? Maybe the MC-17C is a simpler unit that doesn't have that ability. The GU-14B seems to have 8 barrels. Does anyone know the bore diameter of the GU-14B? Thanks.

No, the VF-171 has not been depicted with a beam adapter like Gamlin's VF-17 so often used... though that doesn't necessarily mean it's impossible if it's using a later variant of the same gunpod.

No clue what the bore of the GU-14B is, though my gut reaction guess would be 30mm.

[Valkyrie Driver]

That F-104 looking VF looks like it has two really small engines in the legs that make up the main fuselage. Which, admittedly, is a pretty cool idea for a single-engine profile. Might have to think about that for low cost VF.

[sketchley]

The official word from Macross Chronicle and Great Mechanics.DX is that pinpoint barrier systems produce a focused distortion of space-time... the gist being that it's essentially warping space to create a region matter and energy can't pass through. sketchley would probably know more about this than me, since he's done some work on Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur.

The only thing that comes to mind is that the images and some parts of the description that I looked closely at were almost exactly like what Dr. Michio Kaku described as a how to make an anti-object force field in a Discovery show (anti-object, because what was being used as the "beam" to create the force field "net" couldn't stop photons...).

Edited March 17, 2015 by sketchley

[GuardianGrey]

!!! WARNING !!!

The following is going to be a lengthy Forums post for the purpose to response to several of the Members.

I will attempt to Format it in Chronological Oder of the Topic that the different Subjects of Interest have first appeared.

There could be some debate as to what constitutes as an AVF Upgrade, for (I might be wrong) Project: Super Nova requirements were;

1. Able to attain Orbital status without additional equipment
2. Ability to used the Fold-booster system
3. Utilize the fixed fighter-scale PPB system
4. Utilize the Active Stealth System

For my opinion (which may suck), if it can achieve the first requirement and at least one to the three others, it is of the AVF class.
With the same measure, that does not mean that the Upgraded units would be equal to the full performance of a new AVF (anything post Macross Plus/Macross 7)

AVF Upgrade Candidates - VF-0 Phoenix

Well, as Valkyrie Driver first posted, and Seto Kaiba replied to, of what a VF-0 with AVF level might be like.

I agree that style of the VF-0 design, and I felt the technical designers nailed it with the VF-0kai Zeak. They kept the primary look while giving the reasons of the units increase of speed, electronics & active stealth. I need to get the Macross R manga & learn Japanese, for I would love to know how (in the middle of space) they found wreckage of a VF-0A to start the process with.

Valkyrie Driver pointed out the reasons he felt that the design of the VF-0 would make a good candidate to Mr. March, mainly a proven combat design.

Andras added, "You could use the failure of the Vf-3000 to justify a space rated VF-0C/D as a fighter/bomber VF. The -3000 was bigger, as is the -0 series. The C/D delta wing allows more ordnance storage, and the dorsal hardpoints for extra micromissile pods."

I had brought up the VAL-0B from the for consideration as to get AVF upgrades (originally thinking 2059, not 2038) wanting to give it a new material-structure frame, 3x FF-3001A turbines, weapons upgrade, PBS & ICS. After reading Seto Kaiba's response on the ICS, I agree that it may not be able to go in, though how big is the IVCS?
On the head turret I was not thinking of the same power-level/usage of regular head lasers, on more powerful/higher-output was in the range of debris-mitigation/anti-craft level of firepower with the variable lens allowing it to still do the missile mitigation if needed on a wider scale.

My view of the usage of this would be to do as JBO would like for her upgraded SDP-1 Stampede, outer defense perimeter with the Ghost fighters for support (in place of a wing of VF protecting the SDP-1). If multiple units of can synchronize their attacks with the head turrets &/or the variable beam guns (as proposed usage of the F-35), then the combined firepower might seem like a scout/attack ship (with less cost in materials/manpower).

2038 version I would want to still have new frame materials (compared to the VF-0), arm units using the VF-22/VF-17 heavy lasers, no EX-Gear, 3x FF-2099A turbines (VF-16/VF-11MAXL), PBS, dissimilar upgrade to head laser & electronics to control QF-3000 Ghost fighters to attempt to fill the same role.

AVF Upgrade Candidates - VF-1 Valkyrie

As Seto Kaiba posted out in his response to Valkyrie Diver, the VF-1++ had the performance of an AVF, though harder to control & possible slower than the VF-0kai (which was made/rebuilt after the VF-1++ was destroyed).

To me the equipment modifications to allow it made the unit FUBAR, though I still could see that it started as a VF-1.
jvmacross asked, "What about the VF-1X Plus?" Well, the VF-1++ already covered that, though I feel that was more a garage-modification set than a factory rebuild.

Nostalgia can be powerful force, though were does one draw the line. (meant as a bad joke about art)

AVF Upgrade Candidate - VF-9 Cutlass

Seto Kaiba commented on the VF-9E Cutlass from Marcoss R before Raptor One's comment that it would be their choice followed by the VF-4.

AVF Upgrade Candidate - VF-4 Lightening III

While not getting an AVF Upgrade, Raptor One, there was a variant in Macross R designated the VF-4SL that competed in the Ostrich Class races.

AVF Upgrade Candidate - SDP-1 Stampede

JBO brought this unit up, of which I think its primary job was to shoot ships down. Then tey gave a reason for them (it seems) as highly mobile planetary defense units. Even though I do not see how it could be updated without a total redesign, I do feel that the VF-25S Armored Messiah is a homage to the ideas there of.

AVF Upgrade Candidate - VF-11 Thunderbolt II

Mr. March looked and commented that the most likely candidate for the posting was the VF-11 due to the number of VF units produced (second only to the VF-1, I believe), which was seconded by Valkyrie Driver.

hulagu asked, "Does a normal combat styled version of the VF-11MAXL (...) count as a Thunderbolt upgrade?" Of which Valkyrie Driver commented, "Yeah, it would count, as long as it retains more of the typical VF-11 aesthetics (i.e. no boobs or mylene style head)."
Seto Kaiba had pointed out in cannon that, "It's said (in connection with the MAXL variant) that the VF-11 needed to have the airframe strengthened to take the additional thrust of new engines about 2/3 as powerful as what's on most AVFs, and being so darn small would make its armament rather lighter than what most AVFs carry. It wouldn't have nearly as much staying power or carrying capacity as your average AVF (and, IIRC, something about pinpoint barriers is said to screw with the VF-11's sensors on the Thunderbolt Interceptor)." On the Thunderbolt interceptor, I believe it is due to the power drain of controlling/using the PPB that shuts down long range sensors there of Considering, as Seto Kaiba pointed out, that a PPB uses more than half (60-70%) the power-output of two FF-2200 turbines in a VF-19A. It seems though that the VF-11 kai-units (the MAXL-kai & D-kai, which use lower out-put turbines) have full use of fighter-scale PBS without any adverse effects to other systems. I feel this maybe due to how the units had there PBS installed (M7's kai had the Three-Star factory ship while the Thunderbolt Interceptor was done in a hanger?).

Valkyrie Driver was discussing the fan-fiction he wished to write, and discussed with shetchley the view on the MAXL units. I know within the Mekton Z+/Macross game I ran, the Fleet's factory produced a refined VF-11Cs with the FF-2055 for cannon units, VF-11Ds for trainers & MAXLs in the place of the VF-1S role as CAG units.

AVF Update Candidate - Timeframe & Design Considerations

Valkyrie Driver said, "Basically, I'm wanting to see what VF's folks want to see reimagined as AVF entries, for the purpose of this exercise, we'll assume the Year is 2038, 2 years before the Project Supernova Trials, Which eliminates some of the later entries (Y/VF-19,YF-21/VF-22, VF-25, VF-29 are already past that spec, and the VF-17 doesn't qualify since it's a special operations mech)."

Which, in hindsight, I did not read before my first posting here, Valkyrie Driver, so my apologies.

If I am reading it right (though the Macross Compendium needs to intergrade the Macross R information better), the UN military did a call-out for AVF 'proof of concept' units in 2034, with the final candidates for Project: Super Nova decided upon in [2038-39]. As Steo Kaiba pointed out, some of the VF units within Macross R competing in the Unlimited Class races are a few of the 'losers' from the AVF selection.

In consideration of newer technologies like the ISC & EX Gear are discussed, as well as the possible weight savings (or lack there of) in cannon.

First brought up by Valkyrie Driver that there were no single, or triple, engine VR units. Mr. March responded with safety concerns with space travel & that redundancy of having more than one is part of that. Mommar then added, "Given they're all aerospace technically the engines should be in triplicate then." Which was counter by Mr. March, "I think going for triple engines may be - as JBO said - adding unnecessary complexity to that which is already over-engineered."

Then there was a Weapons discussion between multiple members. Another about the redundancy of Leg nacelle weapon-bays with Super-part missile pallets on top of. Then the discussion of how/why FAST-packs/Super-parts are used.

Then a discussion on the VF-shield & melee weapons going to the PBS and how effective the PPB is.

AVF Update Candidate - SW-XA1 Schneeblume

Seto Kaiba brought forth this unit from VF Experimental, which unofficially is based off the VF-1 with contemporary stealth design influences. I have seen the art and agree that it could have been a contender, (Hey, Seto Kaiba & Mr. March, why is not the SW-XA1 in the Macross Mecha Manual's VF Experiment section?) I felt the VF Experimental craft are like todays proof-of-concept demonstrators, as the company makes the unit to pitch the idea to military brass/budget to develop farther along.

AVF Update Candidate - VF-14 Vampire

Seto Kaiba recommendation was, "I'd think the logical choice would actually be the VF-14 Vampire. The airframe's stressed for about twice the engine power that the VF-11's was (...), and it's said to have a LOT of free space inside the airframe that can be used for upgraded or optional hardware." I can see the point to that, even if you need to reinforce the frame for turbines stronger than the VF-14 is rated for (like FF-2350B that the VF-22 use).

AVF Update Candidate - VF-3000 Crusader

Mr. March suggested the VF-3000 as a consideration as an AVF, due to that the newer technologies might be able to solve earlier design issues. I see no fault in that logic, though might be some engineering work to do so correctly.

Even though the VF-14 may have more space (via design), I brought up would not be true if one uses updated/upgraded (and believed smaller) systems for the VF-3000? (not noticing Mr. March's earlier entry) Sildani's comment on was, "The... Crusader have the limitation of old materials and an inflexible design. Short of completely rebuilding them with the all new materials, they're already at a disadvantage from weight and materials standpoint - and if you're going to go that far, you might as well go ahead and build new 24s, 25s, or even 27s for the same trouble."

AVF Update Candidate - New Designs

JBO commented, "Tangentally, I'd like to see a VF inspired by the F-104 Starfighter." Valkyrie Driver gave some reasons why it would not be practical, and I seconded him on that & with a single engine VF based on the F-35 transforming like the VF-22. My Comments started another discussion on the early development of Macross VF units. JBO countered with, "While the F-104 had problems as a fighter, many of them can be fixed in a variable fighter "because overtech". I mean, it worked for the VF-4. And I think you guys are underestimating the value of a VF with a high LCF." Valkyrie Driver gave reasons why a F-35 based unit would be better, & I gave better candidates in the 'family' of the F-104 as a response. Then, I found & posted from Shoji Kawamori's work on Air Cavalry Chronicles the LV-7 Valorous Rapier "Excalibur". Valkyrie Driver commented, "That F-104 looking VF looks like it has two really small engines in the legs that make up the main fuselage. Which, admittedly, is a pretty cool idea for a single engine profile. Might have to think about that for low cost VF." I see it as the reverse of the F-5E/F-20, though if the two smaller turbines can out do one big, then it is all good.

Another consideration I put forth was what would be the look/upgrade of the VF-5 to AVF class and I expressed concerns the VA-3M Invader might already fill that spot, though do not know if it can (doubtful) go orbital.

AVF Update Candidate - VF-17 Nightmare & VF-19 Excalibur

http://haiiromamoru.deviantart.com/art/VF-19-FX-1801st-ISC-372562874

The first comment of the VF-17 in the topic was by Valkyrie Driver for his fan-fiction. I posted part of my Mekton Z+/Macross game units & views in response to thinking that it was update/upgrades to 2059 specifications, and not to the original 2040 timeframe as outlined by Valkyrie Driver. My bad for not reading the Forums fully before posting.

After reading some posts in is Topic (& at that time not having read Valkyrie Driver's timeframe post) I felt my VF-19EXR Fragarach (with a thrust to weight ratio of 19.14 empty) was a useless upgrade compared to the new VF-25 units (ratio 39.09). Sildani's comment of, "... if your bored-out & lighten 19 can barely keep up with a new 25, i'd say you've done very, very well indeed."

Edited March 18, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Seto Kaiba]

AVF Upgrade Candidates - VF-0 Phoenix

[...]

After reading Seto Kaiba's response on the ICS, I agree that it may not be able to go in, though how big is the IVCS?

It's not a size concern, but rather that there is some unspecified aspect of the designs of some VFs that make them incompatible with the ISC. The exact nature of the incompatibility is not elaborated upon, unfortunately, however the VF-0 is possibly incompatible, the Zeak doesn't have one listed in its stats.

AVF Upgrade Candidate - VF-11 Thunderbolt II

Mr. March looked and commented that the most likely candidate for the posting was the VF-11 due to the number of VF units produced (second only to the VF-1, I believe), which was seconded by Valkyrie Driver.

The chief issue there being the aforementioned problems the VF-11 shares with virtually every other aircraft that could potentially be upgraded to AVF tech levels... insufficient structural strength, limited internal space in the airframe (relative to AVFs), and issues with AVF-level tech.

As Steo Kaiba pointed out, some of the VF units within Macross R competing in the Unlimited Class races are a few of the 'losers' from the AVF selection.

That's not quite what I said, actually... the VF-9E, etc. were unrelated efforts to upgrade existing fighters to AVF standards, a job which was generally abandoned as impractical if not downright dangerous. (e.g. the VF-9E, VF-11MAXL, VF-171EX)

Their development had no direct connection (that we know of) to Project Super Nova and the solicitation for new next-generation designs.

AVF Update Candidate - SW-XA1 Schneeblume

(Hey, Seto Kaiba & Mr. March, why is not the SW-XA1 in the Macross Mecha Manual's VF Experiment section?) I felt the VF Experimental craft are like todays proof-of-concept demonstrators, as the company makes the unit to pitch the idea to military brass/budget to develop farther along.

Wrong kind of "Experiment".

Aircraft designated VF-X (or XVF) are literally in-universe experimental aircraft like we have in the real world. Offhand, I don't know why the Schneeblume isn't in the VF-E section... probably for want of a good, clean line art source. "VF-Experiment" is the name of the column in Character Model that the Schneeblume and Schneegans were from... it was the column that ran before VFERR.

AVF Update Candidate - VF-17 Nightmare & VF-19 Excalibur

Er... not sure why these are listed as "candidate" designs... they were already AVFs when they were new, and at least the VF-19 is known to have been able to partially adopt VF-25 equipment.

[Mr March]

AVF Update Candidate - SW-XA1 Schneeblume

Seto Kaiba brought forth this unit from VF Experimental, which unofficially is based off the VF-1 with contemporary stealth design influences. I have seen the art and agree that it could have been a contender, (Hey, Seto Kaiba & Mr. March, why is not the SW-XA1 in the Macross Mecha Manual's VF Experiment section?) I felt the VF Experimental craft are like todays proof-of-concept demonstrators, as the company makes the unit to pitch the idea to military brass/budget to develop farther along.

In order to present the best possible quality artwork, I insist upon using only very high resolution artwork scans, which are then down-scaled for presenation on my website. Sadly, very little on the internet can meet that high standard and so I am forced to purchase a Macross art book collection to scan everything myself. I can only scan Macross art that I own personally, which until recently has been very limited. I lack the source material to create 2,400+ DPI scans of the SW-XA1 Schneeblume. I also lack source art for the SW-XAII Schneegans, but years ago I had found some high-ish resolution scans of the SW-XAII to initially include on the M3. But those scans are much too small for my current scan/quality standards, so I won't be improving those profiles until I obtain the art book/magazine that has that line art so I can scan it personally. And yes, I know the Macross Chroncile 2nd Edition has SOME of the SW-XA1 and SW-XAII line art, so I may scan those in 4,800 DPI to make it work (since they are so f'ing small on the page).

Needless to say, if anyone has the source books that have obscure art, feel free to volunteer high-res scans or mail me photocopied pages as a donation to my website

Edited March 18, 2015 by Mr March

[Zinjo]

...

Of course, the real problem is that Macross very rarely has VF VS VF combat. Aliens don't care what we built our fighters to take.

Which is ironic because it seems a fan favorite in terms of actions scenes. M7, M Zero, MF

[Seto Kaiba]

Which is ironic because it seems a fan favorite in terms of actions scenes. M7, M Zero, MF

... and 90% of the combat in Macross 30...

[Mommar]

Which is ironic because it seems a fan favorite in terms of actions scenes. M7, M Zero, MF

You left out Macross Plus from that list?

[Valkyrie Driver]

AVF Update Candidate - Timeframe & Design Considerations

Valkyrie Driver said, "Basically, I'm wanting to see what VF's folks want to see reimagined as AVF entries, for the purpose of this exercise, we'll assume the Year is 2038, 2 years before the Project Supernova Trials, Which eliminates some of the later entries (Y/VF-19,YF-21/VF-22, VF-25, VF-29 are already past that spec, and the VF-17 doesn't qualify since it's a special operations mech)."

Which, in hindsight, I did not read before my first posting here, Valkyrie Driver, so my apologies.

No worries, I think the discussion has moved past that point anyhow. We've begin discussing all kinds of things for the past several pages, that it doesn't even matter what the initial intent was. Incidentally, most of this discussion has branched off because it's kinda hard to pin down what defines an Advanced Variable Fighter in the first place. There's really no line of demarcation where the AVF category begins. Really the best way is to look at Variable fighters in generations as is done with contemporary fighter craft.

So I submit to all of you my break down of production Variable Fighter Generations: (feel free to correct me)

First Generation - VF-0, SV-51, VF-X-1, VF-1

Second Generation - VF-4, VF-3000, VF-5000, VF-9,

Third Generation - VF-11, VF-14, VF-17

Fourth Generation - VF-19, VF-22, VF-171

Fifth Generation - VF-25, VF-27

This list doesn't include prototypes, that is anything with a YF designation, nor does it include specialized variable mecha like the VA-3, VB-6, or SDP-1. I didn't feel it was necessary to include those because, as is parallel with modern day, ground attack aircraft don't need updating as much as fighters, because of the less volatile nature of their mission.

[Seto Kaiba]

So I submit to all of you my break down of production Variable Fighter Generations: (feel free to correct me)

First Generation - VF-0, SV-51, VF-X-1, VF-1

Second Generation - VF-4, VF-3000, VF-5000, VF-9,

Third Generation - VF-11, VF-14, VF-17

Fourth Generation - VF-19, VF-22, VF-171

Fifth Generation - VF-25, VF-27

Macross Chronicle's VF "genealogy" chart (Mechanic Sheet 01Q) offers something like a generational breakdown of VFs...

You and they are on more or less the same wavelength, though they put the VF-17 in with the VF-19/22/171 instead of the 11/14. If they had ".5" generations, the VF-17 would probably be one of those, as would the VF-1 Plus variants and so on, because they were built during one generation and adopted tech from another.