LOTR:ROTK Questions

[Felix]

Not that I need to ramble further, but eugimon brings up a good point. Whether or not the Southrons or Easterlings were analogous to Asian/Middle Eastern/African people or not, there WERE many examples of 'white' people working with Sauron, whether you go from the low end of the people who ratted the hobbits in Bree up to the Black Numoreans ('black' as in 'fall into the shadow' rather than any racial features), who were among Sauron's most loyal buddies in their time and most likely made up a number of his ringwraiths and probably the Mouth of Sauron. The movies, due to time restraints and not wanting to confuse people, kept it relatively simple and stayed with the 'white guys/dwarves/elves/hobbits vs. orcs/trolls/Easterling/Haradrim'

Besisdes, we really never know what percentage of Easterlings and Southrons support Sauron. Obviously those in the border lands, but they have a lot of just cause to have bones to pick with Gondor anyway.

Very good point in that when something is referred to as "black" it means fallen, not black as in a race of people.

Also, a good point that we don't know what what was going on in the lands of the Easterings and Southrons. We do know that there were 5 Istari (wizards) sent to middle earth to aide men. Two we know well Gandalf and Saruman. Radagast we only hear of in passing. Alatar and Pallando went off into the world and their tales are not recorded by Tolkien. In all probability they were aiding peoples in both the East and the South...

[kung flu]

Well i don't know much about the lord of rings world, cause i have not read the books, I've only seen the movies, and its the movies that gives me the impression of what i've said earlier. To me anyway it does seem like every one is ganging up on the western peoples human, elves.......etc. I'm just thinking if Sauron is such threat to the whole of mankind, how come no one else puts up much of a fight except for the humans of the west (where are the dwarfs?). How come people from other areas not come to assist. Instead we have humans helping Sauron which like i said before, the movie makes it look as though the threat is only directed towards the west of middle earth.

[sketchley]

People like to criticize Tolkien for making the 'non-white' groups 'bad guys', but that's mainly because the stories are told from the POV of the western forces and they win the war. The Haradrim, for example, actually were a noble and decent folk, but it was the Numenoreans (the ancestors of the men of Gondor and Arnor and perhaps (more distantly) the Rohirrim) who came to Endor and in their haughtiness settled down in Endor and started to levy taxes and tribute from the Haradrim, which put them at odds. Sauron, being the opportunist and charmer, basically convinces the Haradrim that they'd be better off siding with him and eventually avenging these slights than forever being second-rate toadies to the pompous Dunedain. Imagine people lording themselves over you and constantly implying through looks and reactions that they are superior to you just because they may have some elven blood running through their veins. You'd side with the first powerful guy who offered to help, whether he came in pretty form or as a big, dark lord. Similarly, the Easterlings, who had beefs with the men of the West as well, were lured by offers of wealth and power. Sauron gets his way and the heads of the factions under him get their little cut... meaningless to Sauron's grand scope, but important to them.... it's much the same way he got his nine ringwraiths. Sauron wanted to enslave, not decimate.

Jeez... sorry for rambling....

This actually makes a lot of sense. In the making of documentaries that come with the extended edition, they dwelve into Tokein's personal history; specifically his fighting in the trenches of WWI. The experiences there actually compelled him to write his epic tale as a way or means to work some of the issues he had from the war out of his system.

Looking at it as a variation of WWI, and the events leading up to it, the players in the war for the ring makes sense. Of course, there is a healthy dose of pro-environment, anti-industrialization that was added too, and I'm pretty certain that came from his experiences in the English countryside where he grew up and lived.

[Felix]

Looking at it as a variation of WWI, and the events leading up to it, the players in the war for the ring makes sense. Of course, there is a healthy dose of pro-environment, anti-industrialization that was added too, and I'm pretty certain that came from his experiences in the English countryside where he grew up and lived.

Again, Tolkien did not intend for his books to act as an analog for anything. He was not being political, and actively derided anyone who implied that he was. Clearly his involvement the Great War gave him an insight into battle, but ultimately he was just telling a story. This means that all those people who wrote Theses and Dissertations on the underlying meanings of Tolkien's work and how it is some great allegory for the 20th century were/are engaged in a activity that Tolkien himself spent much time and effort trying to discourage....He hated allegory (well, at least as it was attached to his work)

[Hurin]

Wait, you guys mean to say that when people from two different regions fight each other, they don't tend to look alike!?!

Anyways. . .

In Tolkien's world, the origins of Men were somewhat tainted because they "awoke" in the East where Morgoth (the First Dark Lord for whom Sauron from LotR was a mere servant) became aware of their presence first. So he sent his spies and emissaries among them and sewed doubt and fear in their hearts regarding the West and the Valar (the "gods" of Tolkien's Middle-earth who are not actively present in the world by the time of the LotR, though their influence is still felt through their agents. . . such as Gandalf.)

A quick aside about the Valar, etc.: Think of there being One God as in monotheism. . . and that is "Illuvatar" in Tolkien. But below Him are all the Greek gods that serve Him. . . the "Valar" in Tolkien. Below

them

are the Maiar. . . which are sorta "lesser Valar". . . "of the same order but of less degree." FYI, Morgoth was a Vala, Sauron and Gandalf were Maia).

Nevertheless, many large migrations of Men set out for the West in hopes of coming upon the light that was said to dwell there (if memory serves, the Sun rose in the West at this time and of course, beyond the Sea was Valinor). They eventually came into contact with the High Elves (Noldor) of Beleriand and settled among them, becoming their friends and (willing) vassals. Many of these tribes of Men were noble, strong, and much beloved by the Elves. . . and they stayed faithful to the Elves and remain beloved.

But, one "House" of Men turned upon the Elves at a critical time during a climactic battle with Morgoth (the Nirnaeith Arnoediad) and betrayed them. This eventually led to the total collapse of the Eldar's resistance to Morgoth. . . and surely Morgoth would have had the mastery of all Middle-earth had the Valar not finally forgiven the Noldor for their transgressions (read The Silmarillion) and interceded themselves.

So. . . from their beginning, Men have had a dualistic nature in Tolkien's world. The Elves do not entirely trust Men as they have seen them so often and so easily consumed by greed, lust for power, and the fear of death (which comes upon them after so short a time in the world). Indeed, it is Man's propensity to go astray and serve the Forces of Darkness that grieves Manwe (the High King of the Valar) the most.

As for Tolkien's works being overtly or intentionally racist (as the term is commonly used). . . I just don't buy it. If I were to write a story about The Muslim conquest of Spain and chose people in Spain as the protagonists. . . would I be racist because all my heroes are white but the people invading are. . . not? The Easterlings, Haradrim, and all the other Men that served Sauron came from the South and East ("where the stars are strange"). And, let's keep in mind that the worst of the "Wicked Men" in the annals of Tolkien were the "Black Numenoreans" who were white. . . and no different than all the whities you see in Minas Tirith.

There was actually an hilarious parody done once of a standard Academic's "deconstruction" of Tolkien that took the side of the Orcs as an oppressed people that were being persecuted by the racist White power structure of the Elves and Gondor, etc. It was quite classic. Can't seem to find it though.

[Jolly Rogers]

Well i don't know much about the lord of rings world, cause i have not read the books, I've only seen the movies, and its the movies that gives me the impression of what i've said earlier. To me anyway it does seem like every one is ganging up on the western peoples human, elves.......etc. I'm just thinking if Sauron is such threat to the whole of mankind, how come no one else puts up much of a fight except for the humans of the west (where are the dwarfs?). How come people from other areas not come to assist. Instead we have humans helping Sauron which like i said before, the movie makes it look as though the threat is only directed towards the west of middle earth.

The movie is a very truncated version of the books. In the original books there were a lot of localized wars, as part of Sauron's strategic plans to isolate the free races and prevent them from banding together to fight Sauron as a unified force.

The last movie also cut out a major plot thread where forces from different parts of Middle Earth converge in Minas Tirith to help the sieged city and eventually push the fight to the Black Gate. The movie made it look like the Rohirrim were the only ones who came to the rescue.

[Hurin]

The last movie also cut out a major plot thread where forces from different parts of Middle Earth converge in Minas Tirith to help the sieged city and eventually push the fight to the Black Gate. The movie made it look like the Rohirrim were the only ones who came to the rescue.

Other than the forces from Southern Gondor, who else did come to the rescue?

I think you're confusing Imrahil (etc.) with people from other nations. But all those forces pouring into Minas Tirith prior to the siege were forces from S. Gondor. Though I suppose there might be one or two minor exceptions.

But, yes, the siege of Gondor/Minas Tirith was handled very differently in the movie. . . especially the "Army of the Dead" being made into an indestructible super-army that can wipe out all of Sauron's forces in 60 seconds. Which, of course, makes the sacrifices of the Rohirrim and everyone else up to that point sorta pointless and pathetic considering they could have just hunkered down in Minas Tirith and wait for the CGI Super Army to show up. (that's not the way it happens in the books).

I once made a much longer, geekier, and more detailed post about this gripe here.

[kung flu]

Maybe Sauron ain't such a bad guy, he could be totally misunderstood. And he does make some fine looking rings which people are jealous of, especially his uber ring. Maybe he's the victim

Edited January 18, 2007 by kung flu

[sketchley]

As for Tolkien's works being overtly or intentionally racist (as the term is commonly used). . . I just don't buy it. If I were to write a story about The Muslim conquest of Spain and chose people in Spain as the protagonists. . . would I be racist because all my heroes are white but the people invading are. . . not?

If you only wrote the Muslim invaders as evil, then yes, in a way it is racist, or at least bigoted. If you included some humanizing elements to the Muslim invaders, at the same time giving some dehumanizing elements to the Spanish, then it would be both more interesting and not racist, or bigoted.

The only example that comes to mind is James Cameron's terrorist movie 'True Lies'. The bad guys are all from Arabian countries, and yes, they are all portrayed pretty terribly (most not much more than cardboard cutouts.) However, in the special team that fights them is an Arabian member who exhibits opposite traits and humanity (I can't remember if the character remains cardboard or develops much during the movie.) Anyhow, take it as an example of attempting to not write a racist story.

[Hurin]

The problem with that is that Tolkien does take the time to explain how Men of the East and South had come under Sauron's dominion and there is no "race" to it. They just live in a different region where Sauron has more sway and happen to have darker complexions than do the people in the West (as people do in the real world). And, as others have pointed out, he also shows a whole lot of evil among those of lighter complexion too.

The problem here is that people unfamiliar with Tolkien's written works see Peter Jackson's version of it and say: "Hey! He's got dark-complected people as the bad guys! Racist!"

If you included some humanizing elements to the Muslim invaders, at the same time giving some dehumanizing elements to the Spanish, then it would be both more interesting and not racist, or bigoted.

It is striking to me, however, that whenever a war movie is made nowadays that isn't white guys vs white guys, you always have to go out of your way to humanize the enemy (if the protagonists are white). If you don't, you see the New York Times, The Post, and several other big media outlets complaining about the racist undertones of the story/movie (Black Hawk Down comes to mind) But, if you're showing anyone killing white guys (WWI, WWII -Europe Theater-, and Medieval Europe-set movies are a good example), well then. . . the white guys who are the enemy can be faceless evil villains with no speck of humanity. It is just striking to me that we can't tell stories now where the bad guys are simply bad. . . unless, of course, the enemy is pale skinned.

Now, a truly racist take on evil is the Orc. I mean, they're just evil by nature. Their race is evil. But, I don't really have any patience for those who want to say that Tolkien intended the Orcs to represent any given human ethnic group in the real world. Indeed, that would make just about every work of Fantasy ever made since a work of racism as well. But, I know (personally) too many english professors who twist everything they read to reflect their own personal political beliefs or life experience. And those who are obsessed with race and the politics of ethnicity will see it everywhere. Just google "Tolkien" and "racist."

Sometimes, people who don't look alike fight. We shouldn't have to constantly remind each other that (in the real world) all the combatants are equally human. And we should be able to tell simple "good guys" vs "bad guys" stories where the emphasis is on the "heroes" without fear of being called racists just because one side is a bit more tan than the other.

[sketchley]

It all depends on what experiences one has up until the point of reading/viewing/digesting a story, that colours their interpretation of it.

The other angle to look at, in the case of LotR, is the era and for which market that it was written. It wasn't written for a globalized economy era, and it was written for the British, and possibly only the other English speaking countries.

Looking at it from the current geo-political-economic situation, the fault of Tolkeen, which at the same time is the greatest strength of the work, is it's vagueness. We can read whatever we want to into the mythos that he created. Which goes to my point: the interpretation and opinion of the reader/viewer are coloured by the reader/viewer's experiences up to that point.

[Hurin]

Looking at it from the current geo-political-economic situation, the fault of Tolkeen, which at the same time is the greatest strength of the work, is it's vagueness. We can read whatever we want to into the mythos that he created. Which goes to my point: the interpretation and opinion of the reader/viewer are coloured by the reader/viewer's experiences up to that point.

Huh? There is nothing whatsoever "vague" about Tolkien. In fact, it's excruciatingly detailed. You can interpret it however you wish and project your own world onto it in ways that gratify you and any pet causes you might have. . . but I certainly would never call it "vague."

Edit: The "you" above is the collective "you". . . not you specifically.

[sketchley]

I think we're arguing the same point. Yes, vague as in Orcs don't specifically represent anything, but they could be interpreted to represent anything (well, anyone).

Edited January 19, 2007 by sketchley

[kung flu]

From the movies, i'm not trying to say they are racist, i'm trying to say the threat of suaron is reduced to just the peoples of the west. They did say in the movies, the orcs wanted to "destroy the world of men" yet we have humans helping them, which gives the impression that the threat is directed towards western peoples of middle earth. You guys can mention a whole lot of things from the books, but its the movies i'm talking about.

[eugimon]

From the movies, i'm not trying to say they are racist, i'm trying to say the threat of suaron is reduced to just the peoples of the west. They did say in the movies, the orcs wanted to "destroy the world of men" yet we have humans helping them, which gives the impression that the threat is directed towards western peoples of middle earth. You guys can mention a whole lot of things from the books, but its the movies i'm talking about.

Meh. I don't see why you keep saying this. Men of the West only refers to the people of Gondor in the movie, sauroman clearly tried to take over the Rohan, which were northerners. Yes, they're both white, but they have quite different cultures and were well differentiated. If you can only break it down to simple "black and white" then fine, whatever.

Then there's the routing of the elves and dwarves, who weren't humans, but drives home the idea that all of the peaceful folk of Middle Earth were at threat.

On a parellel note, I read an op ed piece about how BSG needs to have a more "diverse" cast, nevermind that BSG has latino leads and more asians than any other show on TV. Please, can't we get over thinking of things strictly in terms of black and white? Just because people share a particular skin color does not mean they think a like, share a common culture, goals, language or anything else.

[eugimon]

Well i don't know much about the lord of rings world, cause i have not read the books, I've only seen the movies, and its the movies that gives me the impression of what i've said earlier. To me anyway it does seem like every one is ganging up on the western peoples human, elves.......etc. I'm just thinking if Sauron is such threat to the whole of mankind, how come no one else puts up much of a fight except for the humans of the west (where are the dwarfs?). How come people from other areas not come to assist. Instead we have humans helping Sauron which like i said before, the movie makes it look as though the threat is only directed towards the west of middle earth.

you keep saying you watched the movies, but your posts make it sound like you fast forwarded through all the exposition. The whole council of elrond scene was meant to show that by that time, the elves, humans and dwarves don't trust each other anymore and are too busy trying to save their OWN civilizations to mount a united front.

And why do you keep saying no one else puts up a fight... we have the

dwarves slaughtered in their mines, we have the elves FLEEING from their cities, we have the threat of the burning of the shire. In the north we have sauroman slaughtering Rohan... heck, in Return of the King, they go to great lengths to show that even many of tribes that make up the Rohan weren't interested in helping Gondor (Gondor and Arnor are the only people refered to as Men of the West)

If you think the movies show the threat only directed against Gondor, than frankly, you just weren't paying attention to the movie.

[kung flu]

If you think the movies show the threat only directed against Gondor, than frankly, you just weren't paying attention to the movie.

By west i mean gondor and rohan etc, i'm not all that familar with the map of middle earth. The king of rohan did mention his people were men of the west in the third movie. From the movies sauron and Christopher Lee appears to be only targeting those two countries. So what i'm saying, how come no one else comes to help them in the last battles. The elves came in part 2, did their army get wiped out, where are the dwarf armies and if there are other human nations, where are their armies. So if Sauron is such a major threat to all on middle earth, the movies didn't show it that well. It only showed it threatened those two areas. It didn't really show you how the dwarfs/ elves were threatened, only men. It did show the dwarfs slaughtered in part one, but where are Gimli's people.

[eugimon]

By west i mean gondor and rohan etc, i'm not all that familar with the map of middle earth. The king of rohan did mention his people were men of the west in the third movie. From the movies sauron and Christopher Lee appears to be only targeting those two countries. So what i'm saying, how come no one else comes to help them in the last battles. The elves came in part 2, did their army get wiped out, where are the dwarf armies and if there are other human nations, where are their armies. So if Sauron is such a major threat to all on middle earth, the movies didn't show it that well. It only showed it threatened those two areas. It didn't really show you how the dwarfs/ elves were threatened, only men. It did show the dwarfs slaughtered in part one, but where are Gimli's people.

The rohan are not men of the west, they're northerners. The plains lie above Gondor And there is this HUGE mountain range seperating Rohan from Gondor and Ardor... They clearly showed this in the movie. The EVEN showed you a finger going over a map, so you could see this in the movie.

The elves do get wiped out, even the commander dude dies (remember Theoden and Aragorn holed up in the great hall and theoden crying that they lost?) and even when Elrond comes to aragorn with reforged sword of elendiel, he comes alone. (this is different in the movies then in the boo ) and the movie shows the rest of rivendale fleeing to the grey havens, abandoning middle earth. And again, the movie shows the mines of moira completely decimated and over run by goblins and a balrog (this would be another instance where you're supposed to be able to put two and two together... why would the dwarves just let a key city get overrun?)

The movie and the books focuses on the fellowship of the ring... it shows you snipets of what's going on as a whole, you're supoosed to figure it out. Think back to how massive the alliance was at the beginning of Fellowship and how puny the armies of Gondor and Rohan are by the time Return of the King rolls around.. you're supposed to be able to connect the dots (the dots being dozen or so times Elrond, Gandalf and other leaders talk about how the humans/dwarves/elves can't get their act together, how rohan wasn't being supported by gondor, how the dunedain got wiped out).

Again, if you want to focus on the skin color only, then thats fine.. however if you want to complain about the movies, I suggest actually watching all of it.

[kung flu]

Again, if you want to focus on the skin color only, then thats fine.. however if you want to complain about the movies, I suggest actually watching all of it.

You should forget about skin colour and think more of geography, Sauron targeting those areas in middle earth includes Humans, elves, dwarfs...etc, Where are Gimlis people to lend a hand. Not every elf could have been killed in the second movie, there has to be a least some elf soldiers that survived. The rest of middle earth doesn't seem to be threatened wither its in the east, south or wherever. The only area under serious threat appears to be in the direction of the WEST which includes Gondor, Rohan, Dwarf and Elf nations...etc.

This does not imply that everyone is the same, nor did i say the peoples of Rohan and Gondor where the same because they are white in any of my previous post. I merely said their countries where in the same region which is WEST. Just like in the real world France Germany, Spain and the UK are all in the WEST of Europe as well as many other countries.

Edited January 20, 2007 by kung flu

[Hurin]

Tolkien's works are never concerned with anything but what happens in the west. . . throughout all eras of Middle-earth all the way back into The Silmarillion.

Because. . . The West is where the Elves settle and where the Noldor return from Valinor and make their war upon Morgoth. The East is largely wild and uncivilized. . . and if Morgoth isn't there, there's not much of a story to tell. And this carries forward into the next three Ages (LotR takes place in the Third Age).

So, basically, you're asking why a book about WWII doesn't say much about Brazil. Or why a book on Roman history doesn't talk more about the Chinese or India.

For the record though, there were five Wizards sent to Middle-earth by the Valar. Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, and two others. The latter two went into the East to try to raise resistance to Sauron there, but were never heard from again.

[kung flu]

Oh, just to clear something up when i say "PEOPLES OF THE WEST", i mean the people that live in the WEST OF MIDDLE EARTH that includes dwarfs humans elves...etc . I don't care if the humans were black or white cause they'll still be called "PEOPLES OF THE WEST". West or western peoples doesn't really have to be associated with white people, in this case it is all the different peoples living in the WEST (as in the direction). I think some people are confusing it with the real world where its mostly white people in the west.

Edited January 20, 2007 by kung flu

[Hurin]

I think some people are confusing it with the real world where its mostly white people in the west.

People in South American would disagree.

But I assume you mean Western Europe.

But Tolkien's world is pretty darn white in the West as well. Which is what opens it up to knee-jerk charges of racism from others.

Keep in mind that in Tolkien's works, Western Middle-earth is comprised of everything you see in the map. . . including Mordor, Southern Gondor, and The Dwarf realm of Erebor to the North. That is all Western Middle-earth. So let's not confuse Southern Gondor with "The South" or Harad with "The East." It's all "The West."

But of course, there is another "West" in Tolkien, and that is Valinor, the Undying Lands that is to The West over the Sea.

[kung flu]

People in South American would disagree.

But I assume you mean Western Europe.

I meant Western Europe, sorry.

Keep in mind that in Tolkien's works, Western Middle-earth is comprised of everything you see in the map. . . including Mordor, Southern Gondor, and The Dwarf realm of Erebor to the North. That is all Western Middle-earth. So let's not confuse Southern Gondor with "The South" or Harad with "The East." It's all "The West."

Exactly, everything on the map does not represent the "WHOLE OF MIDDLE EARTH". Thats what I've been trying to say, Sauron is only threatening the peoples (humans, elves...etc) on that map. So from the movies it does not seem he is threatening the "WHOLE OF MIDDLE EARTH" just the places on that map.

The map represents the WEST OF MIDDLE EARTH. In the second movie Aragorn said the enemy is bred for one purpose, "TO DESTROY THE WORLD OF MEN". So with so many humans from different areas helping Sauron, that threat is no longer valid, and with the possibility of humans living in areas beyond the map it doesn't seem the WORLD OF MEN is threatened that much, only the people (humans, dwarfs elves...etc) living in the WEST is in danger.

If the movies wanted to uphold the threat "TO DESTROY THE WORLD OF MEN", then they should not have shown so many humans helping the bad guys because that would just undermine that threat. Thats what I'm disappointed with, but the rest of the movies were great. I hope you can now understand what I'm trying to say now.

Edited January 20, 2007 by kung flu

[Hurin]

Well, Sauron hates the Men of the West and the Elves. . . while the Men that live in the East are much less civilized and only useful to him as thralls or harshly-treated allies.

He hates the Men of the West so much, by the way, because of his earlier humiliation at the hands of the Numenoreans. . . from which Gondor and the remnants of the North Kingdom (Arnor, in which the Shire is located) are descended.

[JELEINEN]

I think some people are confusing it with the real world where its mostly white people in the west.

Technically, it is the real world. It's set on Earth, just long before recorded history (similar to what Howard did with his settings).

[Hurin]

Technically, it is the real world. It's set on Earth, just long before recorded history (similar to what Howard did with his settings).

I'm not sure that Tolkien ever explicitly stated this (though I haven't looked too much). . . but it has been a popular interpretation ever since The Hobbit cartoon asserted this at its beginning (later re-implied by the animated RotK.

But reading The Silmarillion, and his collected letters, I'd have a hard time reconciling that view and the events that are yet to unfold in Tolkien's mythology (Morgoth's return from the Void and the Last Battle at the end of the world after which the Music of the Ainur will finally be heard in all its unsullied beauty as it is sung by all Illuvatar's children --Valar, Maiar, Elves, Men, and Dwarves--).

In his earliest works (the roots of The Silmarillion) he seems to want to give us the impression that his tales are on a pre-history earth. But this seems largely to be abandoned later on (decades before the LotR starts to take shape). Though, of course, many people draw parallels to the geography of Western Europe, etc.

In Tolkien's mind, he wanted to provide a mythology for England. So, I think he wants us to think about this taking place on our world. But, as he readily admitted several times, chronologically and geographically, nothing fits.

So, modifying my first sentence of this post a bit. . . it seems like he does want this to be in our own world. . . but didn't hold himself to any limitations that might make this seem more plausible. So, it's sorta silly to keep asserting that Middle-earth took place in the "real world" during this discussion.

[JELEINEN]

I don't recall ever reading that he abandoned the idea that Middle Earth being our world. Honestly though, my post was meant to be read a bit facetiously, because even though Tolkien's world is supposed to be Earth, it's still a work of fantasy fiction.

Edited January 20, 2007 by JELEINEN

[kung flu]

when the giant elephants appeared in the third movie during the siege of the white city, i immediately thought of the imperial AT-ATs from starwars.

From the movies, they do make a good impression that middle earth is sort of like the UK especially the Shire and the human towns and cities. The Shire and Gondor feels like old England and Rohan seems like old Scotland.

[JELEINEN]

when the giant elephants appeared in the third movie during the siege of the white city, i immediately thought of the imperial AT-ATs from starwars.

From the movies, they do make a good impression that middle earth is sort of like the UK especially the Shire and the human towns and cities. The Shire and Gondor feels like old England and Rohan seems like old Scotland.

The Rohan are supposed to be Anglo Saxons with horses.

[kung flu]

The Rohan are supposed to be Anglo Saxons with horses.

Well, i'm not saying for certain that they are meant to be Scottish, but when i look at the costumes and the props, it has a mix of Celtic and Viking cultures just like Scottish people is made up of those two cultures and maybe other cultures too. The culture of gondor reminds me of roman england mixed with christianity, and anglo saxons or normans. Of course these are my opinions of the way the movies have portrayed these cultures.

Oh yeah, for some reason the elves remind me of the Welsh.

[sketchley]

One of the making of documentary specifically states something about the real culture origins of the Rohan. If I remember correctly (been about a year) they are the original English or British culture, prior to the invasions and culture transformation by the Vikings.

[Hurin]

The Shire and Gondor feels like old England and Rohan seems like old Scotland.

To me, the Numenorean realms (Gondor and Arnor) always seemed like the Roman Empire. A large, civilized empire, split into two and in slow decline. . .

[JELEINEN]

One of the making of documentary specifically states something about the real culture origins of the Rohan. If I remember correctly (been about a year) they are the original English or British culture, prior to the invasions and culture transformation by the Vikings.

That would be the Anglo Saxons (English, not British).

The Shire is specifically based on Oxford and surrounding area.

[kung flu]

One of the making of documentary specifically states something about the real culture origins of the Rohan. If I remember correctly (been about a year) they are the original English or British culture, prior to the invasions and culture transformation by the Vikings.

I've not seen the making of documentaries, but the prop designs such as the interior decorations of buildings and also the funeral service of king Theoden's son all reminds me of a Celtic culture. Even the music sounds Celtic when they show the Land and people of Rohan. That gives me the impression that they have been based on at least some Scottish cultural aspects. The soldiers of Rohan reminds me of Vikings on horses, mainly the helmet, weapons and shield designs, but the clothing resemble Anglo-Saxons as stated by many of you. In the books they are probably described as Anglo Saxons, but as in many movies based on books some elements are changed or expanded. In this case I think the culture of Rohan was expanded to include some Celtic elements.

One must also take into account that in the real world, when the tribes Angles, Jutes and Saxons invaded Britain, their people and cultures would have mixed with the Celts and Romans that were there before them. So i wouldn't be that surprised if they included these elements in the culture of Rohan.

Here are some more questions i want to ask about the movies

Did Gandalf die?

Who sent him back, and promoted him to white?

How long can Aragorn or his race live for?

Did Arowyn give up her immortally, and how?

Wouldn't it be better to have kept the army of the dead till the final battle, until the ring is destroyed, then let them go after that?

Edited January 21, 2007 by kung flu

[JELEINEN]

Here are some more questions i want to ask about the movies

Did Gandalf die?

Who sent him back, and promoted him to white?

How long can Aragorn or his race live for?

Did Arowyn give up her immortally, and how?

Wouldn't it be better to have kept the army of the dead till the final battle, until the ring is destroyed, then let them go after that?

No, Gandalf didn't die. At best, he lost his physical form and had to get a new one. The Valar (basically demi-gods, or more accurately angels) sent him back (they sent him and the other wizards to Middle Earth in the first place).

A couple hundred years (Aragorn lives to be 210). Aragorn's ancestor was a guy named Elros, who is Elrond's brother. Elrond chose immortality, while Elros chose to follow after humans (in Tolkien's setting, mortality is a better gift).

Arwen does give up her immortality, but how is never really said. It's only happened one other time.

In the book, the dead only help Aragorn free Southern Gondor so they in turn can help break the siege of Minas Tirith. The scrubbing bubbles bit was one of Jackson's lamer ideas, and by the movie, you're right that it would have been better to keep them.

Edited January 23, 2007 by JELEINEN