Macross Δ (Delta) - announcement thread

[Zinjo]

I'd love to see that. But make the anti UN the third side. They waited for ages to get both sides to kill each other off and used brainwashed kids to form dictatorship after the two were worn out and resources were depleted forcing them to give up fighting and accept being in control from Anti UN forces mixed with Kamjin style zentradi clones who want perpetual warring in keeping with the old ways of the zentradi. Of course both sides would kill each other off and we can reboot the franchise wit a new calendar when protodevlin portals open up and punish the humans and the universe's civilisation disappears like the protoculture which we never get to actually see. (much like legend of atlantis - an advanced ancient civilisation punished by the god or their own immorality and high technology that it led to their deaths.) Future generations would escape the wars and put themselves into sleep (futuristic coffin) like the mummies and through genetic engineering clones of those people would carrying on in future ages to start again. There would be no memory or history of past ages so valks would need to be remade. (VF-1 rebooted to look more modern in future tv series)

In the halo games you had the three warring sides which made it an epic space war involving many cultures all trying to become the dominant species which I think something similar would be interesting to see in a macross show:

1. zombie like aliens called the flood who represent the inevitability of death and a form of ancient biological weapon that can change into the shapes of whatever it encounters (rip off of John Carpenter "the Thing")

2.Religious aliens who created a cult to control everyone underneath the priest class. (kinda high tech like those aliens in the Predator movies with some form of code of honor in how they fight)

3. And robotic "mad scientist" elite types into eugenics who believe kiling living things solves the problem of wars and destruction. And the humans are caught in between. (we are like the hobbits in Lord of the Rings trying to run from the wars but have to take part in it reluctantly to survive and defend the homeworld from the militant extremists with ambitious vision of how the future should be shaped) The closest thing would be the Dwarf races in fantasy novels where reason and logic are more important than anything so they are materialistic instead of spiritual like the religious aliens who are superstitious.

I think a multi tv series series would be good. The war doesn't end at the end of the tv series but continues on through later shows. (no need to set everything so far into the future this way and you can see mixture of technology based on the wealth of each nation) There would be fights for resources that are needed to continue the war, and loads of deaths of major characters who can't be classed as right or wrong. It's more a matter of who is less wrong than who is right. That's what I like about Gundam.

Dude, I love your enthusiasm, but you gotta work on condensing your ideas more...

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Ya know, Macross Plus is definitely my favourite Macross series, probably because it has so many elements that are completely unlike every other Macross. More mature characters and situations, less focus on the singing, no magic, a real human enemy (I don't mean literally human, but having actual characterization) and a close focus on a few main characters, rather than having a bunch of one-shot characters that only show up when needed for the plot, and are thus given completely two dimensional characterization. Part of that is because of the length, it's nice and short and thus the tight focus really added to the show. I wish they could find a bit of the magic that they found when making Plus again.

Plus always gets points for doing something original but fans always want more of the same thing.

I thought the music in plus was great too. Yes Sharon Apple used music like a witch used spells to manipulate the masses by putting them to sleep and brainwashing them in hypnotic state but that what stands out about plus. It is the counterpoint to the first macross tv series where music is used for good.

For us to get a mature macross it probably has to be a in OVA form. Maybe have pop idol blamed for the death of some young kids and the society bans music and freedom of expression and the censorship allows dictators to prevent anyone from having freedom to think? This causes intolerance as people can't share their culture with others since everyone must homogenise into one big culture that is the same all over the galaxy and is boring in order to appease collectivists.

I would like a show that says something about society today and where we are headed. eg there is a lot of pressure in the world to try to unite all governments into a new world order and give up national sovereignty in place of having super wealthy elites just tell us what to do (similar to emperor having control over everything but it is done secretly behind the scenes with the illusion that we the people have control over our destiny by voting on issues that have very little importance) with our resources rather than us having the say.

A sci fi show should actually explore what that would be like and how bad it would be to not "be yourself" and"have your own unique national identity with unique culture that is different to all other cultures" and the downfall of political correctness gone mad. (eg governments telling you what you can wear, where you can gather, what you can say, monitoring the coununications, and the power of propaganda controlled by an elite and how it affects the thinking of society)

The more dystopian scifi would suit an OVA imo. Series like MegaZone, Bubblegum Crisis, and Macross Plus are more mature to me imo. The reason why plus stood out is because it asked the question of what letting machines take over all decision would be like if taken to an extreme which is a real world concern of today.

But tv series always have to cater to the kids and teens more rather than just general audience not aimed at one group like the original SDFM. To me it's the most balanced and felt like a soap rather than an ad for toys or music cd. It didn't feel as "commercial" is what I am trying to say..

Edited November 5, 2014 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Zinjo]

I would like a show that says something about society today and where we are headed. eg there is a lot of pressure in the world to try to unite all governments into a new world order and give up national sovereignty in place of having super wealthy elites just tell us what to do (similar to emperor having control over everything but it is done secretly behind the scenes with the illusion that we the people have control over our destiny by voting on issues that have very little importance) with our resources rather than us having the say.

Already happening with the Aristocracy world wide, especially in the US. Trouble is that it really wouldn't be very relevant to Japanese audiences and Western audiences don't seem to care, or rather won't until there is nothing that can be done to avert the inevitable....

[Kronnang Dunn]

First 'Saint Seya Omega'... Now 'Macross Delta'?

[VF-18S Hornet]

It's funny, I was milling around for years in my head for a title for a future Macross tv series long before Frontier's debut, and Macross Delta was one of them. Could Kawamoriii be psychic.

[VF-18S Hornet]

I'd love to see that. But make the anti UN the third side. They waited for ages to get both sides to kill each other off and used brainwashed kids to form dictatorship after the two were worn out and resources were depleted forcing them to give up fighting and accept being in control from Anti UN forces mixed with Kamjin style zentradi clones who want perpetual warring in keeping with the old ways of the zentradi. Of course both sides would kill each other off and we can reboot the franchise wit a new calendar when protodevlin portals open up and punish the humans and the universe's civilisation disappears like the protoculture which we never get to actually see. (much like legend of atlantis - an advanced ancient civilisation punished by the god or their own immorality and high technology that it led to their deaths.) Future generations would escape the wars and put themselves into sleep (futuristic coffin) like the mummies and through genetic engineering clones of those people would carrying on in future ages to start again. There would be no memory or history of past ages so valks would need to be remade. (VF-1 rebooted to look more modern in future tv series)

In the halo games you had the three warring sides which made it an epic space war involving many cultures all trying to become the dominant species which I think something similar would be interesting to see in a macross show:

1. zombie like aliens called the flood who represent the inevitability of death and a form of ancient biological weapon that can change into the shapes of whatever it encounters (rip off of John Carpenter "the Thing")

2.Religious aliens who created a cult to control everyone underneath the priest class. (kinda high tech like those aliens in the Predator movies with some form of code of honor in how they fight)

3. And robotic "mad scientist" elite types into eugenics who believe kiling living things solves the problem of wars and destruction. The closest thing would be the Dwarf races in fantasy novels where reason and logic are more important than anything so they are materialistic instead of spiritual like the religious aliens who are superstitious. They can crunch numbers and manufacture things fastest but totally blind to the arts and have no real creativity or original thoughts of their own as they just copy stuff they see.

....And the humans are caught in between. We are like the hobbits in Lord of the Rings trying to run from the wars but have to take part in it reluctantly to survive and defend the homeworld from the militant extremists with ambitious vision of how the future should be shaped.

I think a multi tv series series would be good. The war doesn't end at the end of the tv series but continues on through later shows. (no need to set everything so far into the future this way and you can see mixture of technology based on the wealth of each nation) There would be fights for resources that are needed to continue the war, and loads of deaths of major characters who can't be classed as right or wrong. It's more a matter of who is less wrong than who is right. That's what I like about Gundam.

I like your idea, I also have an idea that this show should focus on the reemergance of the Supervision Army. They were never mentioned again after M7 ended, plus we never knew what happend to the rest of the Macross Galaxy fleet with the encounter with the Varjra, we only saw Battle Galaxy getting it's butt kicked at the end of Frontier. We never knew why they choose to betray the N.U.N Government. Was it to satisfy thier own beliefs or did they encounter remnants of the S.A somewhere along they way, or maybe members of the 117th Research fleet met them, remember Grace was in that fleet the Vajra attacked, and she had ambitionand goal to get what she wanted. And though she is dead after taking a hit from Alto, her conspirators are still out there.

My point is after so long a wait after the first Macross crashed on Earth 2067 would be a perfect time strike. Yeah I know the naysayers would say they were wiped out by the Bedolza fleet just prior to mobilizing to Earth to wipeout humanity, maybe some survived and hid in the shadows as both sides the Earth and Zentraedi would have wiped each other out, or at least rendered the Zentran too weak to even think about them long enough for them to rebuild their forces through mass cloning. I still think they sent the Macross to Earth knowing about the inhabitants and their level of tech, sending one of their ships knowing that the people of Eath would find and restore the ship and learn from its technology. And knowing that the Zentran would follow said ship, and be interested on the inhabitants that found it,an act that would ultimimately draw the attention their enemy Bodolza himself. And some might say why didn't they come to the aid of the Protodevlin in Macross 7, two answers, they didn't know where they were imprisioned and they have the own goals of rebuilding.

Plus maybe in Delta we might find out what happend to some of those early colony missions that ended in their dissaperances, maybe the S.A had something to do with them, capturing and brainwashing the crew into joining the S.A in the attempt to control the galaxy or even beyond. This show should focus less on pop and more on the outcome and story of the charactres, of course it can't be a Macross series without a love triangle and music, and I think it's high time for and enemy Macross type ship for the Delta to deal with. We had enenmey Gundams in every Gundam franchise, it's time we had an enemy Macross the lasted more than one episode. We had Battle Galaxy but it only lasted an episode before being gut punched by Battle Frontier, something like that would be interesting.

So this ends my little vision of this series, but on a side note, Kawamorrii-san please make this show more than 25 episodes. 25 episodes is just not enough for me and others to enjoy.

[boinger]

Sometimes, I think the amount of episodes produced for each series has something to do with coincidental numbers.

An exception for any coincidental episode number count for the SDF TV seres would have to be made though.

The original episodes were 52 episodes as a Gundam parody and then changed to a new script of

26 + 1 clip show before the high TV ratings and then to the final count of 36 episodes.

Macross 7 has 49 episodes because 7 x 7 = 49

Frontier has 25 episodes because it premiered on the 25th anniversary of the 1982 SDF TV series.

So, perhaps Macross Delta will have an oddball episode count of 33 because it will

start in 2015 on the 33rd anniversary of the SDF TV series. The number 3

brought to you by 3 sides of the triangle that makes up the delta symbol.

Or not.

[Old_Nash]

First 'Saint Seya Omega'... Now 'Macross Delta'?

Now, We will receive naruto Alpha XD

(Man, I hate this "mangá" ¬¬

[Zinjo]

I think it would be funny to announce the title of next series on April 1 as Macross XD <---- notice the resemblance to an emoticon...

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Sometimes, I think the amount of episodes produced for each series has something to do with coincidental numbers.

An exception for any coincidental episode number count for the SDF TV seres would have to be made though.

The original episodes were 52 episodes as a Gundam parody and then changed to a new script of

26 + 1 clip show before the high TV ratings and then to the final count of 36 episodes.

Macross 7 has 49 episodes because 7 x 7 = 49

Frontier has 25 episodes because it premiered on the 25th anniversary of the 1982 SDF TV series.

So, perhaps Macross Delta will have an oddball episode count of 33 because it will

start in 2015 on the 33rd anniversary of the SDF TV series. The number 3

brought to you by 3 sides of the triangle that makes up the delta symbol.

Or not.

Very interesting. Occult numerology.

Macross Plus had a bit of symbolism. For instance when Myung was hung by those wires by Sharon Apple (sort of like jesus) and the planet names like Eden (Garden of Eden from the Bible where the original sin occured) and the 7 years of the three friends not seeing each other. (7 is a sacred number - 7th day being sabbath, And the Jews have a thing called jubilee which is 7 cycles of 7 to make the 49th year special for people who were in debt and could have debts forgiven) And the prayer-like pose Guld does when he must think to control the machine with his mind. Don't forget the 9-11 symbolism from Do You Remember Love hehe.

In revelation 9, verse 11: "And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the greek name tongue has his name Apollyon." (ie "the Destroyer")

The antichrist is considered to be the old pagan "God of War" Nimrod who was an expert killer and warrior king who defy the God of Gods and after his death many alternate nature-worship religions sprang up around the world with different versions of Nimrod to make him their god because people liked the protection a warrior could bring. At the end of days this spirit will rise out of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) to reign supreme over mankind again much like Nimrod in ancient babylon.

Many christian believe since man is born into sin we automatically follow in the footsteps of Satan due to temptation that happened in the garden of eden. The only saving grace being that God sent a Son to be the sacrifice to wipe away the sin so that man can be ritually clean enough to go into the kingdom of heaven to be in the presence of God, the Father of all creation. Creation/life is the opposite of destruction/death.

Is it a coincidence that 9-11 was also the date for terrorist attacks? This could be hints that occultists are given legal authority by God to set up mankind for a big fall whenever the christian morals start to decay and society is pre-occupied with the earthly things and not the more-important spiritual things. America is a mostly at the time a jewish-christian nation that must set the standard of behavior for other nations and if found to be hypocritical then it loses its moral high ground by its critics and God doesn't want a bad guy to represent him and will remove his blessing on that nation when people turn away from his laws. Divine Judgement historically follows and then occultists can then move in and begin destroying a nation once people forget the ancient covenant which is what protects that nation from evil if people don't forget it. Within every good society there is evil societies that are hidden. (eg the witches covens, satanic societies that spring up to influence kids to join and grow their numbers, secret societies to get rich kids to donate money with the perk that you get to be part of an elite club to control and influence more people etc) These are meant to test people's resistence to evil and act as a refining of people. To "trial by fire" is to get proof of whether people are really serious about following. Evil can't grow unless the people allow it to by being morally weak.

In many Role Playing games the bad guys always seem to beat the good guys when the good guys forget to be on guard to fight evil and they become complacent. (example is in Phantasy Star where the population become apathetic towards each other and "the Dark Force" emerges to tempt us to become more evil and feeds off our own hatred for one another to become more powerful until heroes emerge to fight the pure evil spirit that feeds off the population's own desire to do wicked things to each other.

I see a lot of that in many science fiction not just macross. It is no secret that many of the authors of the science fiction may actually be into the occult because it is thought that much of the technology we "discover" is channeled writings from people trying to comunicate with the 'dead' (in ancient times these beings were called the Fallen Ones referred to in the bible as the Nephilim. The Nephilim were born from a unholy union between rebel angels having sex with human women whose kids become half angel and half human with the result of super heroes being born into the world with supernatural strength and inntelligence. When these giants were wiped out in the Great Flood of Noah's time (this was due to great violence on the earth in those days: since warriors like to fight and kill each other there is no room for peaceful people - much like gang warfare in poor neighborhood lol ) their spirits were too dirty to enter into heaven so they were forced to roam earth as spirits and is it these spirits that are thought to be the "Demons" you see in the horror movies and in fantasy novels where the witches or wizards are obtaining pacts with to get their knowledge of the past or to provide supernatural assistance (ie demonic strength, transformation into werewolf, all kinds of powers that you see in eastern mysticism. The Jews have Kabalah, christians have Satanism (many rock musicians from the past make deal with the devil for fame, fortune in exchange for their soul) and in musilm countries there are demons known as Djinns (genies) which we see in cartoons as wish granting spirits.

Do some research into Jack Parsons and the things these scientists were into for more info. Much of the great "lost technology of the past" that we use today is thanks to the "spirits" leaking info about how to make the stuff. These spirits never died in spirit form (the physical bodies is another matter) but will be judged at some future date but that doesn't stop them communicating with the humans who wish to conjure them and gain advantage over others with the secret hidden knowledge..

What does this have to do with macross? Many of the technologies will inevitably be used for evil (Captain Global even mentions something about the ship being an evil omen at one time, this is because it actually is responsible for the space war to come which destroys earth) unless mankind is mature enough to restrain from abusing the tech and not using it to manipulate others with it. Within society there are always control freaks who want to be the boss and make themselves king over others against their will, crazy people who want to wreck other's lives because they are jealous, and demon possessed people who just follow whatever the spirit guide or "benevolent alien" told them without actually questioning the wisdom of these spirits they claim are divine beings who could actually just be demons trying to stop mankind from prospering and building peaceful society. Technology has given people conveniences, but there is always dark side to it. And many science fiction movies show this because not everyone is ready for it. Some people feel that it is too dangerous much like how wizards in Lord of the Rings can be power mad once they have the knowledge to "fix things" but they might lack morals to restrict how it is used and who should be the one to use/possess the knowledge. I guess Gandalf in Lord of the Rings represents the common sense wizard/scientist who recognises danger, while his mentor Saruman represents the "scientific elite" who lacks heart and just wants to climb the ladder so they inevitably ally with evil to obtain ultimate knowledge.)

Some groups think wizards are just plain evil because to want knowledge to better your position actually goes against morals of society. If you are on an island and you get to be in luxury while others are working their butt off there is a imbalance of power and this means one has to suffer while another gets to have an easy time ignoring the suffering. (for example people in the past who can't read had to trust in priests/experts in law to interpret the bible in times when everyone were just farmers and too simple to understand anything. The priest class got to filter out all the things and control society which is why they were so powerful. What if those priests had a wicked heart and were not pure? They could limit your knowledge and hide the truth. Today's version of this is our LAWYERS who use a language known as" legalise" to trick us by taking english-sounding words and making different definitions of those english words to mean something else entirely so that us dumb people can't read the legal contracts properly and thus need a legal expert to interpret the stupid language for us. This power of the "Law Society" to just make up a language we can't understand gives them hidden power over us - the same trick wizards may have over warriors in the role playing games. hehe)

What did the Serpent in the garden promise Eve? "That you shall not die if you eat from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil?" This was a test to see if you trust God or if you trust in yourself to be god. Many of current day scientists want to be the god over others and for every good invention there is a group of bad guys who will inevitably try to use it for evil. (example the nukes which can be used to deter people from starting a fight and invading, but they also can be used to oppress a weak nation who is innocent and can't defend themselves and doesn't want to be allied with the other nations that have nukes - what do people who are peaceful and have no power do if they want independence? They need to turn to nukes just to defend their right to exist. So everytime new tech enters into the world there is always more power handed down and this causes more fighitng since having more power for one means less power for the other. If people stopped trying to climb the ladder and focus on the spiritual side of things by throwing the "One Ring" into the fire of Mount Doom, and trust in God by obeying the laws to do no harm to others, then you wouldn't have so much fighting. But it's in man's nature to want to be like Eve and do the opposite.

This is one of the reasons I think SDFM had the right balance of mature stuff. Because it didn't just paint the humans as the heroes trying to police the world in white robots and only showing the good side of hi technology. ( ie that better technology is the answer to bringing peace and righting wrongs through force) It showed that if humans were fighting amongst themselves that we are really just tiny versions of the giant aliens so we can't really say we are better than them since we are sinful too.

If the giant are the demons (named themselves Satan's Dolls in SDFM) we humans are the little imp demons that do the same stuff but just in small scale. Similar to Gundam you couldn't really say if one side deserved to survive or not. There are probably just as many bad guys on the humans side as on the aliens side. Because it was more realistic, adults can watch it and judge it by the message in the story it was trying to say, not just how good the music or animation was. Yes the music in important and the animation is important to attracting people to watch it, but the characters have to be deep and interesting too right? And the message is important as well otherwise what's the point in investing that time to watch?

Can tech be used to do good things? Yes. But what makes the realistic robot show entertaining for me is seeing that same technology used by bad guys. You don't get that in the super robot shows as much. Which makes them more predictable. For every good guy there has to be an interesting and deep bad guy you love to hate. Whether it be comic books or sci fi the same rule applies. In the Dark Knight, it was the Joker. In Gundam it is Char (who is really a victim as well). In JRPG like Final Fantasy 7 it was Sephiroth. (a fave badass bad guy to many fans of the series) Star Wars? Darth Vader. (again he was deep because of his relationship with certain Jedi that were supposed to be the do-gooders who failed to teach the bad guy when he was a child the importance of restraint so he wouldn't give into emotions and let emotions control his actions and let clever, older, and more-experienced bad guys with an evil agenda use emotion to manipulate his thinking like our politicians often do to push unpopular ideas and make them acceptable to us)

Star wars had 1. interesting bad guy, 2. didn't see humans as the only good people (the main villain was one of us and not an alien), and 3. it had a message. (making your time worth it to invest)

I think they could do a trilogy thing with macross. The war doesn't have to necessarily end right at the end of a series. It just means at the end of one war, new power emerges to take advantage of the weakened state of the existing powers as long as villains exist for heroes to fight against. I didn't like Macross 7 too much because it went way too much into the direction of super robot shows and was 50 eps of nothing really going on imo.

Edited November 6, 2014 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Gubaba]

Good lord, man...

[promethuem5]

The only thing I got out of that wall of text is that I'm glad you're not writing Macross D.

[Nekko Basara]

I'll raise this spectre again. Idol groups are hot. Maybe we'll get an AKB0048-styled team of pilot/idols.

Muahaha.

[renegadeleader1]

and suddenly I picture the Little Richard conspiracy scene from Black Dynamite after reading that.

[Kelsain]

Man, once LvL starts, he really can't stop...

Admittedly, tldr...

You do have some nifty story hooks sometimes, but I tend to think they're not right for macross. Have you ever written your own stories?

[boinger]

Hi 1/1 LowViz Lurker:

I see you raise many interesting and tangential points about why or how the Macross

series has been developed and how it might continue. But, I disagree about some

of your historical, fictional parallels and biblical interpretation of the plots or

themes found in the Macross series.

Any ideas or themes found within the Macross franchise are more likely to be based within the Japanese

cultural context considering all of the Macross creators residing solely in Japan.

For example, crucifixion as a form of Roman capital punishment has been around much longer

than Christianity. Crucifixion does not necessarily mean the same thing to someone in Japan than it does for

someone in Europe or North America. Then there's the fact that Myung is not Christ-like and did not get killed

in this fashion or at all.

Alternatively, Shinto and Buddhist themes might be in Macross, but not so much

biblical interpretations. Shoji Kawamori has been clearly influenced by his past visit to India

which resulted in the anime, Earth Girl Arjuna.

I don't see how J.R.R. Tolkien's fictional works can be relevant to past

Macross series, but there might be cool thematic ideas for future Macross works.

Somebody could send Shoji Kawamori a copy of the Japanese version of Lord of the Rings and

see if he likes it.

From what I've briefly read on Wikipedia about Jack Parsons and a whole life time

of studying pseudo-science. I think scientists are human beings who can have opinions that

are wholly false outside of their professional specialty. (sentence re-written)

Jack Parsons, the rocket scientist turned occultist, makes a claim about lost ancient technologies

being re-discovered in current times. He spent most of his life in developing rockets

without any archeological studies. He's right about rockets, but not so much about anything else.

In terms of Macross and ancient technologies influencing human society,

I suppose you could say that many of the Macross series plots are driven by the

use or mis-use of the ancient Protoculture technology.

Maybe, I don't quite get what you are saying?

Political terrorism (freedom fighting?) and government corruption around the world have occurred both before and after the

September 2011 terrorist activities that occurred in the USA. So, I disagree about the strong

connection to what has happened in the USA as to what has happened within the Macross universe.

But at the same time before 2011 in the PSX game : VF-X2, terrorism and government corruption

have been issues within the Macross franchise.

I see Macross as more science-fiction based than fantasy/magic based story telling without

any clear black / white or good / evil morality issues.

Then again,

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Arthur C. Clarke, "Profiles of The Future", 1961 (Clarke's third law)

It's good thing we're just talking about Macross and not Evangelion.

PS

Would you be able to write shorter sentences or re-write your ideas into bullet points?

I find your writing to be very imaginative, but unfocused.

Edited November 7, 2014 by boinger

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Man, once LvL starts, he really can't stop...

Admittedly, tldr...

You do have some nifty story hooks sometimes, but I tend to think they're not right for macross. Have you ever written your own stories?

I have an interest in demonology and symbolism. Many Stanely Kubrick stuff is full of this.

When you watch movies and analyse the symbols you can find a lot of hidden meaning inside them.

There are some interesting things in star wars for instance about the images in it and the deep spiritual messages.

I see that same stuff in macross too. But you do have to have an interest in this stuff to see and realise many people interested in the occult also work in the entertainment so its no stretch to expect that in the story.

The latest games with science fiction worlds like Destiny borrow off earlier games like phantasy star and that borrows off star wars. (japanese rp off george lucas just as disney rips off Kimba the White Lion for inspiration for the Lion King)

Light versus dark good versus evil. It's in gundam where wars are fought over tech but neither side can agree with who is the real "right" and who is the real "wrong" and so they have realistic motivations for killing each other just like in the real world.

The art mirrors what is in the real world. Demons? How does that relate to military technology? It relates because much of the knowledge of killing stuff dates way back to the past when people had dreams to unite everything into single power using weapons that can control all other powers. Novels like Lord of the rings are just fantasy novels but ......they are also messages about where we are going to be going in future. Because this was written by an author who obviously wanted a war story.

Yes to children they are just wizards and warriors but to adults its the military industrial complex and power mad people trying to bring babylon system of rule back. (one leader, one army, one system to rule other systems with spritual leader who uses power to rule rather than wisdom and common sense)

"But the space demon stuff in macross 7 is not suitable for science, its magic. I hate floating rocks from he macross zero shows and shamanism has no place in a show about fighter planes!"

In the real world some scientists engage in the dark arts too. Is it possibly your science fiction is closer to reality than you know? do youtube search on richard hoagland. There is a lot of interesting books out there on the history of space programs and the links to occult so the people who have different beliefs than the mainstream ones do in fact influence the direction we are heading just as the SDF-1 landing on earth influenced the fate of humans and earth when the Giant aliens laser bombarded the entire surface and Global sensed it was an evil omen.

When hitler (who was into the occult) was losing the war many of the scientists working on rocket tech came to america under "project paperclip" to secretly continue working on the technology. Where does all this knowledge come from? I believe the beings we consider demons aliens (ufologists always attribute ufo to be from aliens and point out that the government is hiding stuff) to be the same spirits of ancient times helping certain figures in history to guide the future.

Do research into the vril society as one example here. What you see in the entertainment and science fiction imo is technologies that actually exist but which the public isn't allowed to know about but is ok to present to us all as sci fi. The military naturally puts occult symbols in their logos and NASA logo as hints to the people who are already interested in this stuff but the public is ignorant of what the symbols mean. Occult just means secret ok? I could come up with a symbol, and not tell people what it means.

If I use imagery to tell a story I could use those symbols to put a double meaning into everything. One for the public and one for myself.

So what I am saying is in macross and science fiction in general, you have these symbols inside the shows too. It's not meant for those who are kids to understand but part of a message. Just like the star wars movies have the meaning about the "new world order" in the prequel trilogy, (ie the sith lord uses the Trade Federation to present a threat to the peaceful republic government; where all aliens have an equal say, with the agenda to turn it into a militant empire later on, whilst using a response to that threat he built himself in secret in the form of clone soldiers with elite skills to fight the Trade Federation, and then proving that he is the "hero" that saved us from a dangerous threat, later disbanding the Jedi council (the wise expert or moral authority in peaceful times) to then conquer all the alien races as the one and only leader with no aliens having a say anymore in decision making.

The transformation of Republic into a evil empire by 3 steps

1. creating a false threat, (which you fund - ie the droid army)

2. having a 'solution' to a threat you created in the first place (the clone soldiers or 'heroes') and

3. using the public's trust in these fancy brainwashed clone soldiers who just saved society from evil droids to now kill the good guys (the jedi who want peace and freedom but are seen as rebels instead of heroes).

This is known as Thesis, anti thesis, Synthesis.

1. create problem. Observe the predictable reactions of people to that problem you created and wait for them to come complaining to you for a solution.

2. create solution to the problem which gives you more power over the public through fear and manipulation of public's emotions.in the form of a change in laws so that people are now slaves of the fake hero because they are scared droids are coming to kll them all if they don't give up their rights or individual powers.

3. merge the droid with the clone soldier (the two sides you funded and controlled) into one empire now that you conquered both sides and convinced people to give up freedom for security by manipulating their emotions and not letting them think anymore.

You think prequel trilogy star wars was for little kids? Yes on the surface but its got prarrallels with what is happening in the real world right now. People will give into a fear of something, people will not use logic or use wisdom because of laziness, people will give praise to a warrior king who rules by fear because it offers promise of security. It's nothing new in the real world but to science fiction nerds it makes for interesting story. On the surface we can lie and say it's just a story for entertainment, but the truth is much of the entertainment is inspired by the real world. The main villain is interesting as it could be you: you give into emotions, you let emotions cloud your judgement, and you can give up freedom when you are scared of something (real or imagined). Anakin is as much a victim as a bad guy which makes him deep and interesting just like Char or Sephiroth. And the fact he was once a good guy (just like Boromir in the Lord of the Rings) makes him just like a real world person.

You guys want more gritty and realistic stuff, what I am saying is you can get this but we shouldn't expect a happy ending all the time since our world isn't happy. The problem is spiritual/moral and technology by ruling over others using brute force isn't going to be as interesting as a science fiction show that deeply analyses us as humans. It's the difference between making a show purely for entertainment and art.

When I think of realistic I mean a story where characters are kinda close to the real world. Sure you can give them crazy sci fi fashion and hairdo's and funny futuristic customs, but deep inside that sci fi universe you have a message about the real world around outside that fictional universe you created.

District 9 for example was all about immigrants. The immigrants were the ugly dirty looking lobster people. On the surface it was just about futuristic aliens. But to adults it was about corporations stealing technology to use for increasing power and racism. United nations is not "just japan in the future". In SDFM it had people from all races in it. So the excuse that japanese audience wouldn't get it is silly since sci fi movies always depict multiple races with different languages and all that trying to struggle to get along. Making a show that appeals to international audience > one that aims at narrow audience with very specific taste.

In gundam you had those multiple factions with their own beliefs and the latest entry (gundam Unicorn) handled that realistically. The big greedy Vist foundation wanted to keep getting rich, they had motivation to keep secrets so they could have leverage over others. and the good guys just wanted to do what they thought was right. But the audience has wiggle room to determine whether what the good guy did was right or wrong. There is no clear cut right or wrong. You could see from many different perspectives and opinions from characters in the show what the war was really about so you got a much more deep and realistic universe. That is what I mean by realistic. You got it in SDFM where you didn't have music as a silver bullet all the time. Kamjin still had strong will to do harm even after culture shock, so there was a need for a strong military and as long as there are immoral people you will never solve the problem of fighting and wars.

Good people can also do evil things. Bad guys can do things that are good. In macross plus it was a more mature analysis of the characters than you get in other shows: The white knight isn't always so white. The reblious guy isn't always the immature one. The guy (Guld) accusing the other guy of being reckless is himself psycho, and the immature guy comes off as hero because he takes risks which are exactly the thing needed to push technology to its potential. So you as audience never really know the character deeply enough if you don't analyse deeply. The message is pioneers need to have balls and be reckless to gain anything and make new discoveries. Not all of us are pioneers but obviously there is a need for leaders and trail blazers or the robots will replace you and you are no better than a machine. Where does this happen in the real world? In art science where actual discovery and researching new things actually changes society but it might be risky if you don't find anything.

1. interesting bad guy

2. humans are not the good guy all the time (Dyson is an dick, dyson is human)

3. message (being dull and doing the same thing others already did before is not an achievement worth celebrating. )

those are the three things you need to get me to think of the sci fi as being realistic. You can create fake tech that doesn't exist in the real world but I think if it doesn't have realistic consequences when characters do stuff there is no reason to care what happens in it. And if it doesn't have any central message I don't see it as art. In macross 7 they did have space demons. But the way they were presented didn't seem apocalyptic. If they were to introduce stuff like that I think it would be less cheesy if it was revealed that we opened up the dimension to let them into our world through our hatred. And that fueled a need for them to use their energy to feed off our negative emotions. But they presented it in a more commercial way where the song would be the "silver bullet" that automatically wins the day just like super robot show. Its popular, but barely rewatchable.

Edited November 7, 2014 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[EXO]

Holy cow... this conversation needs to be moved to twitter or maybe we can enforce a 140 char. limit here too... lol.

[Gubaba]

I think planes that turn into robots are cool.

[nexxstrait]

I think planes that turn into robots are cool.

hehehe

[EXO]

I think planes that turn into robots are cool.

I'm sure there's a 140 page essay on that somewhere.

[Tochiro]

Its public knowledge that there were 25 eps in Frontier because it was a 25th anniversary show. thats why the end felt rushed.

Similarly, it aired at 25:25, or 01:25 for the rest of us (Japan extends the 24hr clock to 27 or even 28 hour time in common usage).

But Kawamori is known for loving his puns and in-jokes, so this is not particularly mysterious or even secret.

[EXO]

That explains why I only liked 25% of it!

[Gubaba]

http://www.pakin.org/complaint?title=&firstname=&middlename=&lastname=1%2F1+Low-Viz+Lurker&suffix=&gender=m&shorttype=l&pgraphs=10

Heh.

(EDIT: Yes, it's a site that generates automatic ten-paragraph complaint letters. Use it wisely! )

(But yeah... if you REALLY want to know what the new Macross series is going to be like, I suggest looking at what shows are popular NOW and why they're popular, as well as looking at the success of Macross Frontier, and seeing WHY it was successful...)

Edited November 7, 2014 by Gubaba

[Valkyrie addict]

LOL! wow!

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Its public knowledge that there were 25 eps in Frontier because it was a 25th anniversary show. thats why the end felt rushed.

Similarly, it aired at 25:25, or 01:25 for the rest of us (Japan extends the 24hr clock to 27 or even 28 hour time in common usage).

But Kawamori is known for loving his puns and in-jokes, so this is not particularly mysterious or even secret.

I don't think everything symbolic = secret. Macross 7 had max being its captain and we know 7 is the lucky number.

They had 7 kids.

Why do we think 7 is sacred? 7 days in a week. 7 = rest day (sabbath). James Bond is the 007 so he can never be killed.

Yes it's not secret/occult. But you can't deny there was not symbolism in macross plus too. The name of the planet being Eden. Sharon "Apple". The forbidden fruit is often pictured to be the apple that Eve ate when the serpent tempted mankind etc.

And why does the technology have to project the image of a wicked witch in the movie edition trying to put humans into a spell?

It's no different from trying to decipher the meaning of lyrics in your fave rock songs. You can also see it in your fave movies.

Kubrick's last movie dealt with orgies and secret societies. It's not obvious to little kids what the hell it was about but those who probably hear about that stuff would understand what it is about. Pagans engaged in this stuff in ancient times. Images are forms of communication just as much as words.

The bible uses numbers to indicate certain things: 7 seals, 7 bowls of judgement, 7 trumpets, 7 vials, these are just ones in book of revelation.

You got 7 churches etc

This is just my opinion but

Macross Plus = the plus symbol is a cross. Myung is the sacrificial lamb being crucified that the "pagan witch" (ancient rome was pagan) known as sharon apple will use to attain her power from. And I guess the brainwashed masses in the crowd chanting sharon apples name are the church goers who are idol worshipping the technology as their new god. When the giant SDF-1 rises up it is like a God and all the watchers are witnesses of a demonic possession taking place of the giant idol they worship. (ie the pop idol known as sharon apple who has everyone in a trance and isn't really a living being except in the minds of the men who created it)

The young kids of today are always listening to music which tells them stuff o make them depressed or want to become rebelious to anger their parents. And I supposed the story is you can't trust in the fake music. Real music is pleasing to your ears and soothing and good for you. The bad music makes you into a zombie who is mind controlled. (ie just like the zentradi when they lust for bloodshed)

The difference between what sharon was doing and the protoculture were doing is sharon was putting them into a sleep state while the zentradi were being censored from the truth of their past.

The plus symbol is a cross. Eden is the name of the planet. 7 years is how long it took to put the rape victim's mind to rest. (7 is rest day) The main villain character wanted to absorb myung's soul and steal her personality like a demon trying to find a host body. Sharon = the apple or forbidden fruit that scientist bit that began the rebellion in paradise. (because the AI wouldn't have been able to do what it did without us)

Eden (named after the the biblical Garden of Eden) was the paradise we had (we were ignorant and blissfully so like Adam and Eve before the serpent came along and messed with our heads) before we used the forbidden knowledge (the forbidden fruit in the garden of eden) of artificial intelligence to make ourselves into gods but who couldn't handle the power responsibly and fell out of paradise. (loss of peace)

That's what I mean by symbols. It doesn't have to be hidden so much as it is there to tell a story inspired by real things or legends from past. We all know of the garden of eden story. It's not hidden. but it appears in Plus symbolically. Science fiction is full of this stuff. But you got to look for it by analysis.

Incidentally certain valkyrie names:

macross frontier has lucifer (the fallen angel that led the rebellion in heaven against God) and the good guy is given the messiah. (it's a white robot) More religious/mythical/ancient legend stuff.

Edited November 7, 2014 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Tochiro]

Excellent and relevant point, Gubaba!

[jvmacross]

F it.....Macross is the devil!!!

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Nah Black Sabbath is the devil.

Unless kawamori takes a risk and puts in a heavy metal band and the character takes a drug that makes him a super pilot whose skills in combat are demonically guided by protodevlin to increase his kill ratios. (finally they can have an assassin character in these stories who goes on shooting massacres that is not a reluctant hero but enjoys shooting targets in line with today's xbox gamers playing call of duty.) Of course he is better than all the previous pilots because he is supernaturally protected by his machine that is also posessed by demons like that black car in bubblegum crisis. Ok so it wasn't posessed but it took a ton of effort to stop. The only thing that kills him is dying from overdose.

Edited November 7, 2014 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[xrentonx]

This thread <---------Whyyyyyyyyy?

[Beltane70]

For us to get a mature macross it probably has to be a in OVA form. Maybe have pop idol blamed for the death of some young kids and the society bans music and freedom of expression and the censorship allows dictators to prevent anyone from having freedom to think? This causes intolerance as people can't share their culture with others since everyone must homogenise into one big culture that is the same all over the galaxy and is boring in order to appease collectivists.

Parts of this idea were already used by Kawamori in AKB0048 and I doubt that he'll use this in the new Macross series.

[JB0]

I think planes that turn into robots are cool.

I prefer when they turn into weird robot-plane hybrids.

[Jefuemon]

Nah Black Sabbath is the devil.

"Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say

If they knew you believe in God above?

They should realize before they criticize

that God is the only way to love"

Yep, nothing more evil than that! (After Forever)

I too like planes that turn into robots!

[Marzan]

Well this thread escalated quickly. Those walls of text were..impressive.

2 points I want to make that won’t take up 10 paragraphs.

1. Pretty much 90% of anime TV series subscribe now to the 1cour (12-13 episodes) or 2 cour (24/25-26 episodes) run. This allows networks to program their schedule much more efficiently. So I don’t think we’ll see a number of episodes that doesn’t fit this model.
2. Gubaba is spot on when he says that people should look at the reasons for Frontier’s success. It’s the idols that made the difference. And viewer preferences have not changed since then,. Just google the sales figures for a show like “Love Live”. It’s massive. Yeah something like Gundam Unicorn sold a bucketload too, but that was more the exception to the rule. The Mecha genre is simply not selling the way it once did.

I absolutely love Macross Plus. Love it. But I think that people that are expecting something like it, with adult main characters and a more ‘gritty’ tone are setting themselves up for future disappointment.

[Bri]

Indeed, the only shows that break the cour format are long running daytime or primetime shows, not much mecha in that slot unless it's a Bandai or Takara Tomy toy property.

The tone of the new series will be related to the format and broadcasting time. Daytime (weekend morning) or early evening -> young kids and tweens (Macross 7, Gundam Age, Gundam Seed). Late night slot -> otaku audience aka teens and twenty somethings (Macross Frontier, Gundam 00).

Stuff like Unicorn, Macross Plus or Zero etc is pretty much reserved for OVA. Yamato 2199 did make it to TV, but that is a bit of an exception.

So the poison is either simple content or loads of otaku tropes .