Actar Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 For many of us the interesting transformations are part of the appeal of Macross. Even though there's a high amount of anime magic involved in some, I always enjoyed figuring out those transformations and their mechanics. It set Macross away from many other Mecha shows of the time. For me, however, once I realized that the 25, 27 and 29 all had virtually identical transformations, Frontier became a little less interesting to me. That, combined with the generally unlikable and immature characters soured me on Frontier a fair bit. That's just my personal opinion though, I know lots of people really enjoyed Frontier, but it just wasn't for me. At least it was better than 7 though... Wow. You're spot on. Couldn't have said it better myself! Though, to be dreadfully honest, if they're going to re-use designs, more YF-21/VF-22 inspired designs would push all the right buttons for me though. Can't get enough of how that sleek jet can turn into that bulky battroid. "Back Kibble"?? The aircraft were pretty aerodynamic looking to me! With the exception of the Armored Pack which functioned much like an armored Gerwalk in flight, all the other aircraft did not have the mission packs in atmosphere. The Tornado pack from the movies would be the only exception I can recall and it had tilt jet thrusters to assist in it's flight.. By back kibble, I do believe they're referring to the battroid mode where the wings just simply hang off the back. The 21 and 17 have pretty much flat backs.
Raptor One Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 ^Indeed. Does fighter mode even have a "back" to speak of?
Scyla Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 Wow. You're spot on. Couldn't have said it better myself! Though, to be dreadfully honest, if they're going to re-use designs, more YF-21/VF-22 inspired designs would push all the right buttons for me though. Can't get enough of how that sleek jet can turn into that bulky battroid. By back kibble, I do believe they're referring to the battroid mode where the wings just simply hang off the back. The 21 and 17 have pretty much flat backs. The 21 has its fair share of wing kipple just not on its back. The VF-17 also has magic shrinking wings on its back so I don't know if this is a fair comparison for a Valkyrie (the 3D model of the Messiah) that can't shrink in the same way the drawn VF-17 can. If you take the Yamato toys of the YF-21 and the VF-171 you can see that the wings are still a big problem when it comes to cohesive shapes in Battroid-Mode. However I think Kawamori could make more cohesive shapes if he wanted to. A prime example would be the tail fins of the YF-30 that don't slide upwards in the main wing area. But Kawamori loves stuff that hangs of the robots. I have a MP Seeker as a proof that is not confined to Macross. From the Frontier era I especially love the Lucifer due to the way the wings curl up onto themselves. The "devils tail" negates the effect though. But I think it was a conscious decision by the designer not to have the same shield deployment as the messiah so.... ...I think as long as Kawamori is designing Valkyries we're gonna have with lots of kipple that transform from gorgeous looking planes into plausible looking robots.
Brand-X Posted July 17, 2015 Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) While Kawamori's designs have always had an element of kibble, the latest ones just seem to take it too far. The 19's hip kibble didn't bother me because it was sort of a focus point, the rest of the Battroid was nice and sleek. The 21 had the backpack, sure, but once again, it was used as a visually distinctive element. The 25 wasn't so bad, as the wings on the back sort of had an angelic appearance to them which served as a great aesthetic addon. Hell, even the VF-11's shield was kibble in a way, in that it kind of just hung off the arm and covered up a huge gap in fighter mode. Thankfully Kawamori turned that into something functional, and in doing so, created a whole new design element that most Valkyries have included later on (the idea of a physical shield somewhere on the arms) The 27 and 29 however almost look like they just have an extra Valkyrie sitting on their backs. It goes from being an added little stylistic detail to remind the audience of its origin as a fighter and instead just kind of try to hide all the mess they couldn't figure out a more interesting transformation scheme for. I think this is likely because they use the same transformation scheme as the 25. If they had been designed from the ground up as independent fighters without reusing anything, I'm sure Kawamori would have come up with a much sleeker battroid than the kibbly mess we got. Perhaps that's why I'm such a fan of the FAST Packs of the VF-1, in their battroid modes there was very little kibble, mostly due to their fairly simplistic transformation (in comparison to later designs) so adding on extra bits of armour or boosters seemed more natural to me. The VF-0 had a similar transformation but I think that when the Angel pack was added we started to see a bit of the direction Kawamori would start to take with later designs, in this case literally putting an extra fighter sitting on the back. Gone was the sleek Battroid, replaced with extra bits just hanging off from everywhere. Of course I get the story reason for that, but visually it just didn't do it for me. With that said, the 27 does look nice in battroid from certain angles, and that's how I have it displayed. The 29 has a gorgeous looking fighter mode (at least in the Alto colour scheme, I'm not a huge fan of the repaints). I don't dislike them, but I can say they certainly rank near the bottom of my favourite VFs. Edited July 17, 2015 by Brand-X
Scyla Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 I'm not arguing that there couldn't have been a better integration of the wings in Battroid-Mode. For example I think it would be infinitely more awesome if the wings on the VF-25 could wing in the other direction an enclose the cockpit area as a carapace and have the wing tips collapse to cover the bottom. For the YF-29 the engine nacelles would move to the back of the Battroid to function as a jetpack etc. I personally think we will see large angelic wing packs on the Delta designs because as you observed the wing kipple gets more excessive over time. I think maybe some sort of wings that feather out like the Strike Freedom wings and reveal an array of speakers much like the VF-11MAXL Sound Booster.
JB0 Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 I personally think we will see large angelic wing packs on the Delta designs because as you observed the wing kipple gets more excessive over time. I think maybe some sort of wings that feather out like the Strike Freedom wings and reveal an array of speakers much like the VF-11MAXL Sound Booster. I was hoping they'd splay out into an array of metallic feathers like the Wing Zero Custom(it's how they implement the variable wing surface like the YF-21 had, OBVIOUSLY). But Sound Booster on Steroids would be amazing.
Actar Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 I freaking love angel/feathered wings. Some say they look pretentious, I can't disagree more. However, I have no idea how that's going to be executed. Not only will it be a mess of a toy, it's going to be hard to explain how that's necessary in a non-atmosphere environment.
Raptor One Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 I've always wanted to design a Valk with delta wings that split into Angelic looking wings in battroid mode. Even if they were as relatively simple as the Wing Gundam's
JB0 Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 I freaking love angel/feathered wings. Some say they look pretentious, I can't disagree more. However, I have no idea how that's going to be executed. Not only will it be a mess of a toy, it's going to be hard to explain how that's necessary in a non-atmosphere environment. Clearly each feather is actually a protective shroud for a microvernier thruster, enabling finer control. (I think they're silly on a realistic robot, personally. They work better in a super robot show.)
VF-15 Banshee Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) Saw Gubaba post this on Facebook. Looks like things are moving along nicely. Although I do want to hear who won the singing competition... https://twitter.com/MacrossCN/status/622995936097239040 Edited July 20, 2015 by VF-15 Banshee
Mr March Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) I am a little concerned about the mechanical design for Macross Delta. Even though I love the Macross Frontier mecha, they did suffer from a little too much "familiarity" with regards to the transformation process. I remember commenting on that at the time. I don't necessarily blame Kawamori; there's only so much that can be done transforming a plane into a robot, especially at this point in the franchise. Also, it's not like Kawamori has any contemporaries or even proteges from which to challenge himself or from which to draw inspiration. His work is pretty much in a class all it's own, which is also one of his great accomplishments in mechanical design. I guess I'm hoping for at least a new style, if not anything new or different with the transformation systems. I think I'd really like a valkyrie with wings upon the arms. Like outside the shoulder blade, flat along the bicep. Like a shield, except mounted upon the shoulder. I think i would like that very much, almost like a valkyrie version of his Gundam Physalis design. The wings could also be attached mid-wing at the shoulder, so the wings rise partially above the shoulder height; half wing above shoulder level, the other half below shoulder level. And it would be a valkyrie capable of retaining wing-mounted ordnance in Battroid mode, that could also be fired in Battroid mode! Oh, baby Edited July 20, 2015 by Mr March
azrael Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 I guess I'm hoping for at least a new style, if not anything new or different with the transformation systems. I think I'd really like a valkyrie with wings upon the arms. Like outside the shoulder blade, flat along the bicep. Like a shield, except mounted upon the shoulder. I think i would like that very much, almost like a valkyrie version of his Gundam Physalis design. The wings could also be attached mid-wing at the shoulder, so the wings rise partially above the shoulder height; half wing above shoulder level, the other half below shoulder level. And it would be a valkyrie capable of retaining wing-mounted ordnance in Battroid mode, that could also be fired in Battroid mode! Oh, baby IIRC, Roy fired his VF-0's missiles in Battroid mode while dodging the SV-51's. And I recall a VF-171EX doing the same (or maybe the pilot fired off the missiles as he was changing modes). So it's not like there they can't do it. They just don't do it often. As for a VF, we'll see what Kawamori comes up with his LEGOs.
Mr March Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 IIRC, Roy fired his VF-0's missiles in Battroid mode while dodging the SV-51's. And I recall a VF-171EX doing the same (or maybe the pilot fired off the missiles as he was changing modes). So it's not like there they can't do it. They just don't do it often. As for a VF, we'll see what Kawamori comes up with his LEGOs. It's not that Valkyries don't have the capability to fire missiles in Battroid, it's that it's never been done in this way before. It's the "implementation" that's different, interesting and REALLY fun. I mean, think about the look of it. Maybe it's hard to visualize it. But imagine the wings flat along the Battroid biceps, mounted at the half-way mark at the shoulder with three racks of missiles upon the outer side (the largest cluster at shoulder level, a smaller cluster above and one below). The missiles would be mounted facing to the front of the Battroid. I mean, it would look so damned cool. And once the ordnance is fired, the shoulder wings would act like large shields. This implementation would be a way to shake up the status quo without an entirely novel transformation system. With such a Valkyrie it would present an interesting shift in the way valkyrie weaponry is emphasized. A change to an emphasis on more and more varied wing-mounted ordnance, as opposed to how wing-mounted ordnance has been de-emphasized for a long time in Macross. Perhaps a visual mock up would help sell it. If only I could draw well. Maybe I'll try building something in Photoshop to help describe it.
VF5SS Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) he wants a solomco Edited July 20, 2015 by VF5SS
Mr March Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 No, no, something where the wings are mounted upon the outer face of the shoulder itself. The best analogy is like the Gundam Physalis (http://www.macross2.net/m3/moremecha/rx-78gp02a-physalis.htm) that Kawamori created, but instead of rocket boosters upon the shoulders there would be wings mounted.
Zinjo Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 Maybe I'm just not that picky. So long as the Fighter and battroid modes look decent I am happy. The VF-9 for me is the epic fail. The transformation is so complex and unwieldly that it defies logic. Using such a system in a combat fighter and then allegedly adopting it for mass production, seems a bit fantastical for my tastes. I keep imagining hundreds of pilots losing their lives in mid transformation.
Jasonc Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 If you write a fanfic, you can have whatever transformation you desire. I try not to be too picky about them, and even if the valkyrie isn't the greatest design IMO, it's not the be all / end all to the series, OVA, or whatever comes. I actually prefer the story, and the valkyrie just a part of that puzzle that is Macross.
Mr March Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 (edited) Okay, so I built a quick and dirty mock up of the idea I had using the VF-1, but got a bad audience reaction so I figured I'd use a valkyrie no one has any pre-existing bias towards. So here's CursedChimera's AVFX-02A Wyvern showing my shoulder mounted wing concept. I envisioned a shoulder wing mount acting as an additional joint so the wing could move laterally as well as also allowing swivel articulation back and forth, leaving the arms almost entirely unfettered by the wing when needed. Edited July 20, 2015 by Mr March
Karaoke Ninja Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 Okay, so I built a quick and dirty mock up of the idea I had using the VF-1, but got a bad audience reaction so I figured I'd use a valkyrie no one has any pre-existing bias towards. So here's CursedChimera's AVFX-02A Wyvern showing my shoulder mounted wing concept. I envisioned a shoulder wing mount acting as an additional joint so the wing could move laterally as well as also allowing swivel articulation back and forth, leaving the arms almost entirely unfettered by the wing when needed. Won't gerwalk suffer without having any wings?
Mr March Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 Won't gerwalk suffer without having any wings? I would think the articulated wing mount I mentioned would permit deployable wings in GERWALK. Or they might remain mounted to the fuselage in GERWALK, transferring to the arms in Battroid.
azrael Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 I envisioned a shoulder wing mount acting as an additional joint so the wing could move laterally as well as also allowing swivel articulation back and forth, leaving the arms almost entirely unfettered by the wing when needed. So something like the RGM-96X Jesta's shield arm (speaking of which, I really need to go and grab that MG kit) or like Gundam Airmaster?
Mr March Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 So something like the RGM-96X Jesta's shield arm (speaking of which, I really need to go and grab that MG kit) or like Gundam Airmaster? Yes, something kinda like the RGM-96X Jesta. Probably not like the Gundam Airmaster; doesn't seem to have any shoulder interaction with the wing at all, mostly mechanisms from the main chasis, from what I've seen.
Valkyrie Driver Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 I really want a single engine VF, for a cheapie CF unit. I think that would be really cool. I've had the idea in my mind but I'm not very good at drawing, so I can't really put it down on paper. I imagine it as looking similar to the F-35, and transforming like the YF-21/VF-22S.
Mr March Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 I really want a single engine VF, for a cheapie CF unit. I think that would be really cool. I've had the idea in my mind but I'm not very good at drawing, so I can't really put it down on paper. I imagine it as looking similar to the F-35, and transforming like the YF-21/VF-22S. Yeah, that's always been a challenging idea. Might be harder to implement and I'm having difficultly fully imagining it, but I like the concept. It's another way to change up the status quo and offer a new style even if the transformation system isn't all that different. I too think a YF-21 style transformation (with the single engine sitting on the back of the torso in Battroid mode) could work.
no3Ljm Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Not sure if this has been brought up. But would it be nice to see what Katoki Hajime would bring if he design a Valkyrie. Since Kawamori did designed Gundams for Gundam0083. I think it's time to see a 'ver.Ka' Valk. Well, unless he already did design a Valk that I don't know. Edited July 21, 2015 by no3ljm
Duymon Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) I just want a new valk design that doesn't involve loads of back kibble in battroid mode. The 25/27/29/30's all look great until you view them from the side Edited July 21, 2015 by Duymon
Karaoke Ninja Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 I just want a new valk design that doesn't involve loads of back kibble in battroid mode. The 25/27/29/30's all look great until you view them from the side The VF-1 looks pretty terrible from the side too.
Karaoke Ninja Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 I know it's a classic but it doesn't mean it's a flawless design. It can look pretty ugly from a lot of angles. Like the rear section hanging off the back in fighter mode.
no3Ljm Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 I think what Duymon points out is that all the valk he mentioned have potruding back side. More, when the Armored/Super packs are attached. Whereas, the VF-1 is more straight-looking when viewed sideways. Even with those Super/Strike Parts attached.
Zinjo Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) I really want a single engine VF, for a cheapie CF unit. I think that would be really cool. I've had the idea in my mind but I'm not very good at drawing, so I can't really put it down on paper. I imagine it as looking similar to the F-35, and transforming like the YF-21/VF-22S. Wasn't the VF-5 supposed to be a cheap fighter for colony worlds? It I recall the VF-3000 + VF-9 were supposed to provide that Niche. Maybe a single engine version of that fighter? Just spit balling now... Edited July 21, 2015 by Zinjo
Renato Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 Mr March Wings on the arms? Well, at the risk of sounding like an awesome but definitely broken record, SEVEN DID IT!! (By the way, this image is from your very own site)
Mr March Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 Duymon "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." But I would agree that I'd want to see the next valkyries in Delta without the prominent back wings, if for no other reason than to see something different in Macross. I really liked the hip-mounted wings in the Macross Plus mecha and think they'd work well simple relocated from hip-to-shoulder. Renato At the risk of repeating myself, not seeing a lot of shoulder-mounted wings there
Tochiro Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) Saw Gubaba post this on Facebook. Looks like things are moving along nicely. Although I do want to hear who won the singing competition... https://twitter.com/MacrossCN/status/622995936097239040 Yep, it's official! First 10 eps are scripted :-)This actually hit the fandom here back on Friday but I didn't think a conclusive source would surface so soon! ＼(^o^)／ Couple this with the hints that have popped up here and there regarding mechanical designs and other art assets being worked on and it's clear that production is really ramping up :-) Edited July 22, 2015 by Tochiro
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