So I watched the 2 frontier movies, no subs, didn't know what'

[jenius]

Wow. Really? B-b-but Frontier... the music... the Valks... Kyun kyun..

Well she did say "I'm going to be Sheryl Nome at this year's Comic-con" before denouncing the film. So, at least there's that... That didn't happen, I told her she had to pick a character where she wouldn't say "Well, I hated the movie I saw her in..." if someone asked.

Just trying to be helpful because we all make this mistake from time-to-time, "cannon" is good for blowing chit up, "canon" is 'general standard'.

[skullmilitia]

Ha, I forgot they don't show Berera in the background during Ranka singing hoshikira.

[Brooklynwolf]

Hello Brooklynwolf! Welcome to MW! I acknowledge your passion for Macross and anime in general and would like to throw in my own observations about the ending of the Macross F Movie.

The song that Sheryl and Ranka were singing during the final battle is titled "Sayonara no Tsubasa" (translated: Wings of Goodbye), which is the same title of the second movie. The lyrics of the song essentially talks about the Norse legend of the Valkyrie, which are the winged female warriors who come down to escort fallen warriors who were deemed worthy of entry into Valhalla. I guess Kawamori-san was trying to play a bit into this legend by having the Queen Vajra pick up Alto who was a "fallen warrior" of sorts (he was about face death by heavy quantum beams from the NUNS and SMS fleet). I guess the Vajra found him worthy of being rescued and essentially accepted into Vajra society.

You could also say that Sheryl and Ranka were the "valkyrie" who lifted everyone up from the battlefield with their song (they did get spiritual wings when they sang the song). Also, Alto also called them his "wings" (i.e. his inspiration) in the last episode of the Macross Frontier series.

A lot of Kawamori-san's insights on the movie's storyline was shared in the various interviews on the special features disc of the Macross Frontier Shudista (Shooting Star) Blu Ray box, although these are all in Japanese. I was only able to understand a bit with my rudimentary Nihongo. You can probably find a transcript of these somewhere online.

One thing I've learned from being an Otaku is that the Japanese are romantically tragic. The Movie's ending is very Japanese in this sense. Will Alto and Sheryl ever end up together? In the ending, Ranka says that she is confident that Sheryl will one day be woken up from her sleep (coma) by her prince.

I think both the Mac F Series and Movies were great. The latter is more spiritual in its final theme (something that Kawamori-san also explored in Macross Zero), and thus more complex in its interpretation, IMHO.

That being said, my wife hated the ending of the series and the movies. The former because Alto did not choose between the two girls, and the latter because my wife hates Sheryl. :-P She also felt sorry for Ranka for having lost her real brother Brera in the movies, just as he freed himself from Macross Galaxy's control implant. So yeah, I understand that not everyone can be satisfied with such endings. :-)

Thanks for your input man. While it's awesome you shared that with me...it still doesn't sit well with me.

It's cool that shoji wanted to inject a deeper meaning into this particular ending...however I can't help but feel "wow, how convenient, out of all other myths, legends and themes, he so happened to be inspired by THIS one".

Once again, I'm really not looking for more reasons to hate on either the man and his choices, nor the show itself. I just want variety in a beloved franchise and it's "conclusions". If zero had a more crowd pleasing ending, and then frontiers ending stayed the way as is...I am positive that I would be more forgiving than I am right now. I love steak, but I can't have it every night.

Also, I am aware of Japan's love for romantically tragic, or star crossed lovers and what have you. That's why we see it so much in their fiction. I DO see it's merits and can occasionally enjoy it from time to time. One of my favorites back in the day was the ruroni kenshin prequel OVA. Doesn't get more tragic than that (actually it can, but it was damn rough on my heart). If it was just a stand alone piece and the original tv series/manga didn't exist, I would still be haunted by the ending, in a good way.

The story for frontier can be amaze-balls for all I care. I just don't think I can bring myself to watch it, knowing how it ends. I just want a conclusion that is finite. Call me stubborn, ignorant or whatever. I've seen enough anime (I frigging grew up on it) in my life time to be officially jaded on their story telling tropes. Am I losing out on potentially life changing stories? Absolutely. But I choose to not sit through 20+ episodes of a story only to imagine the ending. ESPECIALLY when it happens again and again and again and again...if I wanted to imagine something, I'll just day dream.

Thanks again for contributing man, if I wasn't so against shoji's consistent use of "romantically tragic" endings, honestly it would've blew my mind.

[Brooklynwolf]

I used my wife as a sample audience. She basically hates anime though she always wants to cosplay, it's weird. Any way, she gave DYRL a 'that wasn't bad' and the MacF a 'you owe me for making me sit through that'. I can understand the feeling that you're hopping into act 2 in DYRL though, but the bridge banter fills you in.

My buddy did something similar. He showed this chick he was seeing DYRL, M+, and then frontier.

Breakdown of what she said:

Loved DYRL.

Liked M+

Confused with frontier, therefore, didn't like it.

As far as I'm aware it's cannon. And if it's not, screw it, it's cannon in my mind, damn it!

Honestly, this does take a bit of the sting away.

But why couldn't it be included in the ending itself? Oh that's right! Shoji wants us to "think"....

Sigh....

Edited September 17, 2014 by Brooklynwolf

[brouken]

Thanks for your input man. While it's awesome you shared that with me...it still doesn't sit well with me.

It's cool that shoji wanted to inject a deeper meaning into this particular ending...however I can't help but feel "wow, how convenient, out of all other myths, legends and themes, he so happened to be inspired by THIS one".

Once again, I'm really not looking for more reasons to hate on either the man and his choices, nor the show itself. I just want variety in a beloved franchise and it's "conclusions". If zero had a more crowd pleasing ending, and then frontiers ending stayed the way as is...I am positive that I would be more forgiving than I am right now. I love steak, but I can't have it every night.

Also, I am aware of Japan's love for romantically tragic, or star crossed lovers and what have you. That's why we see it so much in their fiction. I DO see it's merits and can occasionally enjoy it from time to time. One of my favorites back in the day was the ruroni kenshin prequel OVA. Doesn't get more tragic than that (actually it can, but it was damn rough on my heart). If it was just a stand alone piece and the original tv series/manga didn't exist, I would still be haunted by the ending, in a good way.

The story for frontier can be amaze-balls for all I care. I just don't think I can bring myself to watch it, knowing how it ends. I just want a conclusion that is finite. Call me stubborn, ignorant or whatever. I've seen enough anime (I frigging grew up on it) in my life time to be officially jaded on their story telling tropes. Am I losing out on potentially life changing stories? Absolutely. But I choose to not sit through 20+ episodes of a story only to imagine the ending. ESPECIALLY when it happens again and again and again and again...if I wanted to imagine something, I'll just day dream.

Thanks again for contributing man, if I wasn't so against shoji's consistent use of "romantically tragic" endings, honestly it would've blew my mind.

Yeah, the Kenshin OVA. Real tear-jerker that one. :-)

I was wondering though, would your description of a "finite" ending include an ending where everybody dies? Would you be satisfied with such an ending?

I heard that Yoshiyuki Tomino's Space Runaway Ideon has such an ending. I can't imagine myself getting emotionally invested in a series only to have everyone die. (Tomino has somewhat of a reputation for killing off characters left and right).

Also, what did you think about the original Neon Genesis Evangelion series' ending? That really had my brains in a fit. Good thing Hideaki Anno came up with the movies to better tie up the "loose ends" that the series left. He even went to far as to include a scene in The End of Evangelion, where a monitor kept repeating the words "korosu!" (I'll kill you!) which was the content of an actual email that a frustrated Japanese fan sent him after the end of the series. (You know the ending is that bad if even your Japanese fans send you hate mail. :-D)

Raxephon was similar to Evangelion in many ways, but the series ending (though similarly as cataclysmic) ended in a more positive note.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Japanese anime have some pretty "way out there" ways of ending the story. Denouement is not always a given. Sometimes the ending leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. But that too is part of the Japanese psyche that "the bitter goes well with the sweet" or rather, "the bitter elevates the sweetness". Kind of like eating sweet mochi with macha green tea. Not everyone is into that kind of confluence though. I guess it's a cultivated taste.

I do have to agree with some of the others here that watching Japanese anime without some sort of translation guide (i.e. subtitles) is like watching a movie in mute. Sure you can make some sense out of the storyline by what is happening visually, but a lot of the nuance is lost (and the Japanese are masters at nuance) and you'll definitely find yourself scratching your head at the end.

I honestly think you should at least watch the Macross F series and the movies again with subtitles. There are a lot of hidden nods to Macross fans in both that are worth looking into. :-)

[JB0]

As far as I'm aware it's cannon. And if it's not, screw it, it's cannon in my mind, damn it!

I use my mind cannon all the time.

[Brooklynwolf]

Yeah, the Kenshin OVA. Real tear-jerker that one. :-)

I was wondering though, would your description of a "finite" ending include an ending where everybody dies? Would you be satisfied with such an ending?

I heard that Yoshiyuki Tomino's Space Runaway Ideon has such an ending. I can't imagine myself getting emotionally invested in a series only to have everyone die. (Tomino has somewhat of a reputation for killing off characters left and right).

Also, what did you think about the original Neon Genesis Evangelion series' ending? That really had my brains in a fit. Good thing Hideaki Anno came up with the movies to better tie up the "loose ends" that the series left. He even went to far as to include a scene in The End of Evangelion, where a monitor kept repeating the words "korosu!" (I'll kill you!) which was the content of an actual email that a frustrated Japanese fan sent him after the end of the series. (You know the ending is that bad if even your Japanese fans send you hate mail. :-D)

Raxephon was similar to Evangelion in many ways, but the series ending (though similarly as cataclysmic) ended in a more positive note.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Japanese anime have some pretty "way out there" ways of ending the story. Denouement is not always a given. Sometimes the ending leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. But that too is part of the Japanese psyche that "the bitter goes well with the sweet" or rather, "the bitter elevates the sweetness". Kind of like eating sweet mochi with macha green tea. Not everyone is into that kind of confluence though. I guess it's a cultivated taste.

I do have to agree with some of the others here that watching Japanese anime without some sort of translation guide (i.e. subtitles) is like watching a movie in mute. Sure you can make some sense out of the storyline by what is happening visually, but a lot of the nuance is lost (and the Japanese are masters at nuance) and you'll definitely find yourself scratching your head at the end.

I honestly think you should at least watch the Macross F series and the movies again with subtitles. There are a lot of hidden nods to Macross fans in both that are worth looking into. :-)

A finite ending where everybody dies? Honestly, no, I wouldn't be ok with such an ending, but if done in a way that's not for shock value and fits the theme of the story? Sure. It would fall under the "grim...but acceptable" category for me.

Disclosure time...I didn't finish EVA. Does that put my anime credentials into question?

I never got into it because of it's over exposure. It was EVERYWHERE. Everyone I knew and their mothers were like "OMG EVA". It turned me off from it because at that time, my other fav anime were overshadowed by the typhoon that was Evangelion. Same goes for gundam wing. I was like...but what about macross?? And of course, many were like "macro wut?"

That's not to say I didn't give it a shot back then. I did watch a few episodes, but it really didn't grab me. So, I let it pass me by. I was rooting for macross 7 at the time, the underdog. Then dynamite happened....

Anyway...I heard rumblings about EVAs finale. Complete head scratcher. I Wikied it not two days ago, and once again, I feel like it's another failed attempt by another storyteller to "elevate" the medium. It's almost as if he thinks he's above it all and has convinced himself that his ending or whatever the hell you wanna call that was "smart, provocative!" I KNOW I'm not the only one that's bothered by that ending. There was so much backlash about it that even I, a non fan, got wind of.

(EVA fans, these are just MY opinions ok? Let's not tread down that road again lol.)

That wiki article gave me a lot of insight as to what led the creator down that path. It's...interesting to say the least. I find it amusing that even the voice actors thought he was weird and didn't understand what he was trying do or say in regards to the finale.

I dunno, IMO, I feel as if those that loved the ending to EVA are kind of in denial. Say one person that decided "wow, what a daring way to end this popular series. It's provocative, edgy, novel, different! Whoever fails to see it's brilliance fails in life!!"...then the next person who still doesn't quite get or liked the ending didn't want to "appear" like he didn't get the ending jumps on the bandwagon. So that little group that defended the finale eventually snowballed into an army and took a life of its own and became a narrative onto itself. (All MY OPINION)

I didn't get the ending. Initially I thought it was another mecha anime that once again starred an unassuming youth piloting a robot...little did I know it would become an anime about the human psyche. People can say EVA is beyond my comprehension...fine, whatever. A deconstruction on the genre? Cool. But if I wanna learn about the human psyche, I'll register for a class for it. I just wanna watch robots in action with a cool, simple storyline with characters that don't masturbate over a comatose "love interest". That's just me.

And I agree with your "bitter sweet" analogy. Lol but like I mentioned before, I love steak. A perfectly cooked, perfectly seasoned dry aged rib eye is an euphoric experience. But having it so frequently, it loses it's impact....not to mention dangerous to your health, but you know what I mean.

[A_Man_and_a_Woman?!]

I didn't get the ending. Initially I thought it was another mecha anime that once again starred an unassuming youth piloting a robot...little did I know it would become an anime about the human psyche. People can say EVA is beyond my comprehension...fine, whatever. A deconstruction on the genre? Cool. But if I wanna learn about the human psyche, I'll register for a class for it. I just wanna watch robots in action with a cool, simple storyline with characters that don't masturbate over a comatose "love interest". That's just me.

My love for Eva is second only to my love for Macross. That being said, I 100% acknowledge that it's not for everyone. I absolutely loved the road it took and the ending that Anno gave it. I've read every wiki and interview there is on why it went down the way it went down and I've heard/read about the studio budget getting screwed and his mental issues at the time of the production. I get why some fans called BS on it (everyone wanted the epic battle that they got with the movie End of Evangelion) but my reaction was quite the opposite. I thought the OG ending was fascinating and brilliant considering the budget and timeline he had to work with to end the series. Believe me, I can go on forever defending Eva.

Gundam Wing seemed to have a bit too much screaming and pouting for my taste.

Macross 7 was totally meh for me and I thought that was the end of it, until Plus came out. I was honestly out of anime at that point, before that the last anime I watched was Gunbuster. Plus got me back into the anime game. I have to give credit to Manga Entertainment because I ate up all of their releases that year from Ninja Scroll to Wings of Honeamise.

I found Frontier on a now dead site called Studio 39 or something like that after finishing Death Note. At that time it was only the pilot that was available online and I crapped my pants. I watched it over and over and I hunted down Megumi Nakajima's cover of Oboete Imasuka in the end credits. I ended up getting a Malaysian DVD set of the series run and the subtitles where enough to get me through it. To me, Frontiere was a love letter to everything I love about the Macross franchise and it's second only to SDFM/DYRL (those two just count as one whole to me). The music, the valks, the romance; I was in love with Frontier. My now wife, laughed her ass off when she witnessed me lose my crap over the debut of Ozma's valk.

But my wife too shares your frustration with the "open ended" endings but it didn't sour her enjoyment or love of the series.

It's funny to me but it goes to show how old I am when I run into "kids" who love Frontier but don't really know who Minmay is. That blows my mind.

I made sure my 12 year old son watched Macross and DYRL before Frontier and he had the same reaction to the nods that Frontier gave to it's predecessors from the Ranka rescue to the SMS pilots doing Isamu's hand thing, ie. he spazzed with enjoyment. He pretty much hated Zero except for the dogfights. Plus kinda weirded him out. I don't know if I can put him through 7 because I didn't like it- except for the Max/Mirya stuff.

[Brooklynwolf]

My love for Eva is second only to my love for Macross. That being said, I 100% acknowledge that it's not for everyone. I absolutely loved the road it took and the ending that Anno gave it. I've read every wiki and interview there is on why it went down the way it went down and I've heard/read about the studio budget getting screwed and his mental issues at the time of the production. I get why some fans called BS on it (everyone wanted the epic battle that they got with the movie End of Evangelion) but my reaction was quite the opposite. I thought the OG ending was fascinating and brilliant considering the budget and timeline he had to work with to end the series. Believe me, I can go on forever defending Eva.

Gundam Wing seemed to have a bit too much screaming and pouting for my taste.

Macross 7 was totally meh for me and I thought that was the end of it, until Plus came out. I was honestly out of anime at that point, before that the last anime I watched was Gunbuster. Plus got me back into the anime game. I have to give credit to Manga Entertainment because I ate up all of their releases that year from Ninja Scroll to Wings of Honeamise.

I found Frontier on a now dead site called Studio 39 or something like that after finishing Death Note. At that time it was only the pilot that was available online and I crapped my pants. I watched it over and over and I hunted down Megumi Nakajima's cover of Oboete Imasuka in the end credits. I ended up getting a Malaysian DVD set of the series run and the subtitles where enough to get me through it. To me, Frontiere was a love letter to everything I love about the Macross franchise and it's second only to SDFM/DYRL (those two just count as one whole to me). The music, the valks, the romance; I was in love with Frontier. My now wife, laughed her ass off when she witnessed me lose my crap over the debut of Ozma's valk.

But my wife too shares your frustration with the "open ended" endings but it didn't sour her enjoyment or love of the series.

It's funny to me but it goes to show how old I am when I run into "kids" who love Frontier but don't really know who Minmay is. That blows my mind.

I made sure my 12 year old son watched Macross and DYRL before Frontier and he had the same reaction to the nods that Frontier gave to it's predecessors from the Ranka rescue to the SMS pilots doing Isamu's hand thing, ie. he spazzed with enjoyment. He pretty much hated Zero except for the dogfights. Plus kinda weirded him out. I don't know if I can put him through 7 because I didn't like it- except for the Max/Mirya stuff.

Yeah that's cool that you liked, or even loved EVAs finale. I respect that. I'm glad you didn't jump down my throat telling me "you don't know jack **** about EVA". I personally just don't like finales that are too experimental or...obscure, know what I mean?

It's awesome you mentioned ninja scroll and wings of honeamise! Both were...no, are kickass movies.

Kinda bummed with the ninja scroll follow up. So bummed, I don't even remember its name.

[A_Man_and_a_Woman?!]

Yeah that's cool that you liked, or even loved EVAs finale. I respect that. I'm glad you didn't jump down my throat telling me "you don't know jack **** about EVA". I personally just don't like finales that are too experimental or...obscure, know what I mean?

It's awesome you mentioned ninja scroll and wings of honeamise! Both were...no, are kickass movies.

Kinda bummed with the ninja scroll follow up. So bummed, I don't even remember its name.

Sometimes you just feel like watching f*cked up endings because, Old Boy. (Korean version of course ) No need to jump down anyone's throat because, in the end, we all have different tastes and opinions and listening to each other might help open different interpretations of what you're into and it can help clear up misinterpretations too. Trust me, I've met plenty of otaku that despise the Eva franchise.

The Ninja Scroll follow-up was pretty lame and I lasted halfway through the first episode.

Wings of Honeamise is so underrated and often forgotten- easily in my top 10 of all time.

[Brooklynwolf]

Sometimes you just feel like watching f*cked up endings because, Old Boy. (Korean version of course ) No need to jump down anyone's throat because, in the end, we all have different tastes and opinions and listening to each other might help open different interpretations of what you're into and it can help clear up misinterpretations too. Trust me, I've met plenty of otaku that despise the Eva franchise.

The Ninja Scroll follow-up was pretty lame and I lasted halfway through the first episode.

Wings of Honeamise is so underrated and often forgotten- easily in my top 10 of all time.

Hah! You only lasted halfway through ONE episode?? Bruh, I went all DA WAY!!!

...and no, it doesn't pick up...at all...in case you were wondering.

The thing with WoH was that it was so unlike many other anime at the time. It wasn't action packed. The trailers would have you believe otherwise. It wasn't exciting in the sense that since it was anime, you'd expect to see some crazy ****....but nope. It was all about some dude that wanted to go to space. It had a great story followed with great animation. One of my faves.

And Old Boy....that's a movie that definitely kicks you in the face and leaves a footprint on your tongue. Heavy heavy ****. And it's also another one of my faves.

That's another example of a finale that makes sense to me. It was bleak, but I can get behind bleak endings such as OB, only because it appropriately matched the tone from the rest of the movie. Lol so I hope that clears up my "need for happy, resolved endings"...I like effed up endings as much as the next guy, but it just needs to gel with the movie itself. Also, it can't be overused.

Lol man I'm beginning to sound like a broken record player. Apologies to everyone.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Brooklynwolf

[A_Man_and_a_Woman?!]

Hah! You only lasted halfway through ONE episode?? Bruh, I went all DA WAY!!!

...and no, it doesn't pick up...at all...in case you were wondering.

The thing with WoH was that it was so unlike many other anime at the time. It wasn't action packed. The trailers would have you believe otherwise. It wasn't exciting in the sense that since it was anime, you'd expect to see some crazy ****....but nope. It was all about some dude that wanted to go to space. It had a great story followed with great animation. One of my faves.

And Old Boy....that's a movie that definitely kicks you in the face and leaves a footprint on your tongue. Heavy heavy ****. And it's also another one of my faves.

That's another example of a finale that makes sense to me. It was bleak, but I can get behind bleak endings such as OB, only because it appropriately matched the tone from the rest of the movie. Lol so I hope that clears up my "need for happy, resolved endings"...I like effed up endings as much as the next guy, but it just needs to gel with the movie itself. Also, it can't be overused.

Lol man I'm beginning to sound like a broken record player. Apologies to everyone.

I guess the lesson learned here is really, to each their own and agree to disagree. I, and others, understand what you were getting at with your frustrations and I'm happy that cooler heads prevailed.

To those that accused you of coming on a bit strong when you started the thread, dude... come on. What otaku hasn't been at that level at one point or another??? It was a cry for help so help a brutha out instead of calling them an "a**hole" or "stupid." PS: implying it is just as bad as flat out saying it.

With the announcement of the new TV series (that's for real, right?), let's hope the good guy get's the girl or at least chooses one this time! Or at least dumps both of them for a Myria clone because MEEEEEEOW!

[Brooklynwolf]

I guess the lesson learned here is really, to each their own and agree to disagree. I, and others, understand what you were getting at with your frustrations and I'm happy that cooler heads prevailed.

To those that accused you of coming on a bit strong when you started the thread, dude... come on. What otaku hasn't been at that level at one point or another??? It was a cry for help so help a brutha out instead of calling them an "a**hole" or "stupid." PS: implying it is just as bad as flat out saying it.

With the announcement of the new TV series (that's for real, right?), let's hope the good guy get's the girl or at least chooses one this time! Or at least dumps both of them for a Myria clone because MEEEEEEOW!

Lol, word. I'm happy to have been able to have a meaningful conversation with everyone here. Very inviting atmosphere...with a little stumble at the beginning though hehe.

I desperately wish the next series would give me a story AND conclusion that's more in tune with DYRL and Plus. I just wanna relive the joy and excitement I once had with the franchise. If shoji decides to yet again fulfill his desire of "leaving this up to your imagination"...well, shoji, i am disappoint. I'll just stick with the toys...again. Not that it's a bad thing, those always kick ass.

[Mr March]

I mean, there are those that defend every decision shoji makes...ok, that's fine. I have a great amount of respect for the guy too, but I'm not gonna pretend that everything he touches is gold. I did that once with George Lucas when he made the prequels...but then I grew up and realized just how awful the PT truly was.

I do feel excitement for the next series...but that's more for the Valkyrie designs, not so much for the story...considering how the last few series went. So I'm gonna wiki the ending and if it's another unreosolved ending, I'm gonna pass once again. Yeah. No big loss on your end, i know. I'll just rewatch DYRL and Plus. IMO, THAT was some quality stuff.

I think that's the best advice I can offer; just be aware of what you're getting into and be self aware of what you want out of Macross. From the sounds of things, you and I may be on the same page as far as our assessment of the franchise. For me, I adore the art, culture and innovation of Macross when at it's most entertaining. Macross hasn't been artistically/culturally relevant for quite a long time, but that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed for what it is. I agree Macross was at its best when realizing its full potential (IMO that was SDFM, Flashback 2012, DYRL, and Macross Plus). But the later Macross is still rich enough to offer some drama, some laughs, some excitement and interesting world building and great mechanical design. Even Macross 7 was an interesting failure, which is better than mediocrity. IMO, the Macross Frontier TV series is the closest there has been to capturing the magic of early Macross since Macross Plus. There's still lots to love about Macross, so long as you accept it for what it is NOW...and so long as you personally make peace with that.

Now believe me, I sympathize with you as a Macross fan that is also a critical thinker. You will invariably encounter hostility from some fans who seem incapable of reconciling those of us that enjoy Macross while compartmentalizing the shortcomings of the franchise. It sounds absurd, but even I have been accused of not being a "real" Macross fan because of my critical opinions. Typical internet extremism; love what I love with as much love or you are a traitor, LOL! Again, I'd say just treat the franchise fairly and the next time you watch Macross, use subtitles responsibly, hahahaa

[A_Man_and_a_Woman?!]

Now believe me, I sympathize with you as a Macross fan that is also a critical thinker. You will invariably encounter hostility from some fans who seem incapable of reconciling those of us that enjoy Macross while compartmentalizing the shortcomings of the franchise. It sounds absurd, but even I have been accused of not being a "real" Macross fan because of my critical opinions. Typical internet extremism; love what I love with as much love or you are a traitor, LOL! Again, I'd say just treat the franchise fairly and the next time you watch Macross, use subtitles responsibly, hahahaa

True that! And now you know the eternal pain of Star Wars fans.

~Viva la Lucas!

[Brooklynwolf]

I think that's the best advice I can offer; just be aware of what you're getting into and be self aware of what you want out of Macross. From the sounds of things, you and I may be on the same page as far as our assessment of the franchise. For me, I adore the art, culture and innovation of Macross when at it's most entertaining. Macross hasn't been artistically/culturally relevant for quite a long time, but that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed for what it is. I agree Macross was at its best when realizing its full potential (IMO that was SDFM, Flashback 2012, DYRL, and Macross Plus). But the later Macross is still rich enough to offer some drama, some laughs, some excitement and interesting world building and great mechanical design. Even Macross 7 was an interesting failure, which is better than mediocrity. IMO, the Macross Frontier TV series is the closest there has been to capturing the magic of early Macross since Macross Plus. There's still lots to love about Macross, so long as you accept it for what it is NOW...and so long as you personally make peace with that.Now believe me, I sympathize with you as a Macross fan that is also a critical thinker. You will invariably encounter hostility from some fans who seem incapable of reconciling those of us that enjoy Macross while compartmentalizing the shortcomings of the franchise. It sounds absurd, but even I have been accused of not being a "real" Macross fan because of my critical opinions. Typical internet extremism; love what I love with as much love or you are a traitor, LOL! Again, I'd say just treat the franchise fairly and the next time you watch Macross, use subtitles responsibly, hahahaa

Well said my man. Couldn't agree with you more.

However, At this moment...I can't make peace with frontier. Even with kyps picture of Sheryl reuniting with alto...it's just not enough for me to give the series a chance...because that pic's canon..icity(I'm making up words) is still up in the air (although I could do what kyp did and say eff it, it IS CANON), also I don't know which one is more canon-er??? the series or the movies lol?

IF shoji somehow pulls all the stops and miraculously surprises the **** outta me and brings back the spirit (IMO) of what made macross one of my beloved franchises...then for sure, I'll go through the Frontier series. Hell, I'll go through zero,while I'm at it. It's weird, I know... and frustrating. It is a stubborn approach to it. But personally, i can't and won't accept unresolved endings over and over again. Not meant to be a line drawn in the sand...but the day shoji gives me a more crowd pleasing finale is the day I make peace with the shows I missed. It's a weird principle I'm living by lol.

And dude...being accused of not being a "real" fan is just....*jackie chan mind blow jpg*. Fortunately I haven't come across that as of yet, and hope I never do. Nothing is more annoying than a supposed "super fan" covering his ears and willfully being ignorant to fair, legit criticisms.

Straight up, I'm not a teacher at a day care center. I'm not here to take care of anyone's feelings. We're all adults. As long as our stance on certain issues don't involve anyone's mothers, we should be able to speak our minds. As long as the words we say hold substance, we should be as passionate as they are. They can't handle that? Well, not my problem. Instead of pointing fingers claiming someone has sullied these holy grounds...perhaps they should take a step back and reevaluate their life.

if the people I've been talking to here in this thread are anything to go by...I shouldn't worry about a thing. Granted I haven't met EVERYONE at MW yet...but I ain't worried or intimidated...'cause so far, everyone here rocks hard.

[Mr March]

We're all adults.

An unfortunate non-reality

All joking aside, I’d say that while flippancy may help navigate some folks, just be aware it turns some away. I hesitated with my reply because the topic didn't inspire confidence in a potential worthwhile discussion. It’s a gamble that paid off this time, but has more often than not backfired. I'd just say people’s patience is worth encouraging.

I’d agree that right now you’re far too close to disappointment to give the Frontier series a chance. Like I said, if you take away anything from this topic then revisit later (“Subtitles is SUPER-effective!”). That’d work best.

I too hope you avoid the jihad fans. Best method; don’t build a fansite, lol!

Rock hard? Mmmhmmmm...perhaps best left unsaid

[Valkyrie addict]

Macross Frontier OVA's = Bandai cash grab trying to turn Macross into Gundam, nothing else.

If you are not a devote fan, the story is dumb and makes no sense.

Good to see one time and that's it.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Valkyrie addict

[Andras]

I never watched Frontier. Basically I got burned by 7, and once I heard that the story of F involved another race of unstoppable alien monsters that outnumbered our heros and they had to sing for their lives, again, I decided to give it a pass, no matter how pretty the VFs were, that's what youtube is for.

I stopped collecting anime in the 90s, but since WoH was mentioned, I love that movie, and describe it as Jules Verne meets The Right Stuff.

BGC(not 2040!), SDF:M, DYRL, Plus, WoH are my favorite animes.

[jenius]

To Macross' credit, how the singing defeats the bad guys changes every show, that's what they do to try to keep it fresh while staying true to 'song' as one of the core principles, along with 'love triangle', and 'misunderstood bad guys'. What I thought was Frontier's weakest link was that the bad guys were bugs so they didn't have a way of really developing much in the way of personality. The Zentraedi were part of the fun of the original Macross. The Vajra really aren't part of the fun of Frontier. They tried to layer in some human baddies and some political intrigue but they did so pretty poorly. The movies basically take all the faults of Frontier and thrust them forward instead of resolving them.

[brouken]

To Macross' credit, how the singing defeats the bad guys changes every show, that's what they do to try to keep it fresh while staying true to 'song' as one of the core principles, along with 'love triangle', and 'misunderstood bad guys'. What I thought was Frontier's weakest link was that the bad guys were bugs so they didn't have a way of really developing much in the way of personality. The Zentraedi were part of the fun of the original Macross. The Vajra really aren't part of the fun of Frontier. They tried to layer in some human baddies and some political intrigue but they did so pretty poorly. The movies basically take all the faults of Frontier and thrust them forward instead of resolving them.

I personally thought the Vajra was a very interesting choice for an antagonist. How do you sing to (and win over) someone without a brain? That question really got me hooked into the Frontier Series. And I thought the choice to have the V-type virus live in your "guts" was a very Japanese take on the storyline. Alto clearly points this out in the second MacF movie when he said that he was taught to "feel with his guts." The concept of the "hara" or "center" (hara is actually the Japanese word for "stomach and/or abdomen", is intrinsic to martial arts as well. They teach you how to release your "ki" (or lifeforce) from your "hara". The Japanese actually think that the soul resides in the "hara" (if I remember correctly, the Chinese has a similar concept and calls it the "tan-tien".) The Japanese even use "hara" to describe a very amicable/sociable person: "o-hara ga hiroi no hito" (literally, a person with a wide stomach/abdomen). For me, that's Kawamori-san paying homage to his cultural roots.

Again, I'm well aware that not everyone will appreciate it the same way. My love for Japanese culture definitely helped me to appreciate some of these nuances, which is why, I suppose, I'm trying to share these to Brooklynwolf as well. :-)

But yeah, I agree with Jenius that the human aspect of the Zentraedi/Meltrandy is what made the original series alluring. It was that familiar humanity, and at the same time cultural innocence/naivete that made them so memorable. Its why the Zentraedi word "deculture" ended up as the catchword for Macross fans (much like how the word "newtype" became a buzzword for Gundam UC fans). :-)

[Mommar]

I used my wife as a sample audience. She basically hates anime though she always wants to cosplay, it's weird. Any way, she gave DYRL a 'that wasn't bad' and the MacF a 'you owe me for making me sit through that'. I can understand the feeling that you're hopping into act 2 in DYRL though, but the bridge banter fills you in.

Her feeling, honestly, makes tons of sense. Japanese design aesthetics are interesting/beautiful. I'll go ahead and say with zero authority that while their philosophy can be fascinating, that about 95% of their stories are unsatisfying and in many ways they will ruin their own designs (Mechs) by under-utilizing them or ignoring them in favor of less interesting ideas. However, Western audiences aren't going to appreciate most of what Japanese culture is about. I used to be an anime watching fiend in the 90's but I grew tired of the tropes (not that the West doesn't have their own tropes, you're perfectly free to be tired of those as well.)

In the case of MacF, Sheryl looks f**king hot and her costumes are interesting and that whole image is played up big time. Women are going to like that and will want to look like her. Hell, if I had a GF/Wife I'd want her to doll up like Sheryl too. She'd look hot.

Speaking on DYRL, bridge banter to fill in a giant plot hole like "we're lost in space, oh the Earth has been vaporized, etc" is not a good way to tell a story. And the feeling of just being dropped in really loses all agency in that regard. Unless you KNOW earth is gone and the last of humanity is on the SDF-1, none of the scenes from anywhere in the movie will have any weight and it isn't very clear. When Hikaru and Misa return to Earth, that could be anywhere. Planet Zweedoo in Omicron 9. Nobody cares. It's desolate but at a glance nobody would look at it and say, "oh crap, Earth was destroyed." It has this nice eerie vibe to the whole thing, but it loses it all because the presentation is muddy.

[JB0]

When Hikaru and Misa return to Earth, that could be anywhere. Planet Zweedoo in Omicron 9. Nobody cares. It's desolate but at a glance nobody would look at it and say, "oh crap, Earth was destroyed." It has this nice eerie vibe to the whole thing, but it loses it all because the presentation is muddy.

And if they'd had the chance to do a proper opening(which was done to a degree in the PS1/Saturn video game), people could get the same "Oh, crap, that's the Daedalus" response that Hikaru and Misa get upon finding it's wreckage.

It assumes you've already watched the TV series. And to be fair, that was a pretty safe assumption for it's release, but it's not a movie you can just sit down and take in as it is.

[Mommar]

And if they'd had the chance to do a proper opening(which was done to a degree in the PS1/Saturn video game), people could get the same "Oh, crap, that's the Daedalus" response that Hikaru and Misa get upon finding it's wreckage.

It assumes you've already watched the TV series. And to be fair, that was a pretty safe assumption for it's release, but it's not a movie you can just sit down and take in as it is.

And that was always my argument about why it's a bad movie for a newbie to Macross to watch. Jenius disagreed which is why I said what I said.

[Marzan]

I've always seen MOST anime movies that emanate from a succesful television series, as a 'suplement' to the series itself, no matter how hard they might try do be doing a 're-telling' or re-imagining'. Rahxephon, Eureka Seven, Macross Frontier and even lets face it DYRL...they all are kind of hard to follow if one hasn't seen the original material first. It's just really hard to compress the story told in 650 minutes into a couple of hours.

[A_Man_and_a_Woman?!]

And that was always my argument about why it's a bad movie for a newbie to Macross to watch. Jenius disagreed which is why I said what I said.

I think the most success I've ever had with introducing anime to someone new has always been with TV shows. Mostly Ranma 1/2. People love Ranma 1/2.

[Mommar]

I think the most success I've ever had with introducing anime to someone new has always been with TV shows. Mostly Ranma 1/2. People love Ranma 1/2.

I would agree. The trick with Macross is that the show is pretty laughable by today's standards in the animation department. DYRL still looks damn good even today... unfortunately it's hard to follow.

Speaking of which, Brooklynwolf touched on this (I think, not skimming it back over), the animation in Frontier looks amazing but the dogfights are so effing fast that I feel it's practically impossible to watch. Plus had really fast fights but it was clear what was going on. 90% of the scenes with fighters featured it's just blurry streak after blurry streak. I think the mecha choreography needs to be adjusted as well.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Mommar

[brouken]

I would agree. The trick with Macross is that the show is pretty laughable by today's standards in the animation department. DYRL still looks damn good even today... unfortunately it's hard to follow.

Speaking of which, Brooklynwolf touched on this (I think, not skimming it back over), the animation in Frontier looks amazing but the dogfights are so effing fast that I feel it's practically impossible to watch. Plus had really fast fights but it was clear what was going on. 90% of the scenes with fighters featured it's just blurry streak after blurry streak. I think the mecha choreography needs to be adjusted as well.

I also agree that the valkyrie dogfights in the MacF movies were beyond intense. The speed of the action was too fast for me to appreciate the beauty of the valks in action. But in fairness to Macross F, some recent anime also have action scenes that are similarly paced (I'm looking at you Knights of Sidonia and Attack on Titan). I guess the animators are just having a field day with the new animation technologies available today (Can you imagine hand-drawing a scene that moves that fast and fluid?).

But in retrospect, this is not a situation unique to modern anime. Just try making visual sense of the action scenes of any of Michael Bay's Transformers movies. :-)

I've heard that the younger generation today processes information so fast that they might actually appreciate these scenes better than I do. (Gosh that makes me sound so old!)

There is a nice breakdown of one of the final dogfight scenes in Wings of Goodbye in the special features disc of the Shudista blu ray box (you can only access this on the PS3). They show you how the animators basically made a composite of the various visual elements, such as the background, the wireframes of the computer animated valks, smoke from the missiles and light from the muzzle flashes. Pretty interesting stuff. :-)

[Kelsain]

Iirc, most of the dogfighting was ok in the series. It was the big fights, like the last 2 episodes, where it got hard to follow. Alto & Brera working together should have looked better. Not enough love given to the epic Double Daedalus attack.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Kelsain

[jenius]

And that was always my argument about why it's a bad movie for a newbie to Macross to watch. Jenius disagreed which is why I said what I said.

Here's how I would qualify it: For DYRL, the film works as a stand alone movie. Sure, you can say "it would work better if there was a true act 1" or something along those lines and it's true but there's nothing omitted from the story so entirely that you can't understand the events, can't appreciate the characters, or don't feel like there's some sort of a conflict and resolution. I would say that anyone totally lost by the way the story just jumps in isn't paying very close attention. It is quite possible that people never having seen Macross would say DYRL is good if not a bit hurried in its pacing. Of course people who know Macross will generally think DYRL is very good.

For the Mac F movies, having a familiarity with the show is a requirement. Not having seen the show will likely lead to a healthy contempt of the movies. Having seen the show will lead to slightly less contempt.

[Brooklynwolf]

Here's how I would qualify it: For DYRL, the film works as a stand alone movie. Sure, you can say "it would work better if there was a true act 1" or something along those lines and it's true but there's nothing omitted from the story so entirely that you can't understand the events, can't appreciate the characters, or don't feel like there's some sort of a conflict and resolution. I would say that anyone totally lost by the way the story just jumps in isn't paying very close attention. It is quite possible that people never having seen Macross would say DYRL is good if not a bit hurried in its pacing. Of course people who know Macross will generally think DYRL is very good.

For the Mac F movies, having a familiarity with the show is a requirement. Not having seen the show will likely lead to a healthy contempt of the movies. Having seen the show will lead to slightly less contempt.

Exactly!! Right on the target!!

Except for the less contempt thing. Still can't accept F series ending, therefore won't watch it until the next series has a satisfying closure, then I'll backtrack.

[Brooklynwolf]

On the subject of the dog fights: I'm gonna continue gushing over Plus. the fact that it was hand drawn is a testament to how amazing the animators were back then, especially with the director on how he framed the action. They were able to convey a sense of speed whilst allowing the audience to truly see the valks and appreciate the action. It's all about framing and editing.

Someone bought up Michael bay, so I'm gonna try and use him as an example. When you compare the chase sequence of "The Rock" to "Bad Boys 2", it's like night and day. The Rocks chase sequence was just a jumbled mess of tight close ups of the driver with shaky cam, with the occasional tight close up of a car ramming into something...like, it was just boom boom boom. No build up to anything whatsoever. It had no excitement whatsoever. I loved the movie, but the chase was the films weakest element. Now we fast forward to BB2. Wow, what an immense improvement. You actually see the chaos. You see the cars. It was intense. There was excitement in the way it was framed and shot.

IMO, and this analogy will likely piss some off, but don't let it... The dogfight in Plus is BB2's chase sequence whereas Frontier's is The Rock's. With today's advancements in animation on all fronts, cel, CG, I thought i was gonna get kicked in the throat with awesome dog fights in frontier.

Well...It wasn't a kick. It was more of a nudge. It had some cool scenes...bit overall it was messy.

[Mr March]

Gotta disagree with most here; IMO, anime has always achieved speed in battles/dogfights by specifically excluding detail and "abusing" the abbreviation of motion such that the final result achieves an effect of hyper-velocity. The hand drawn animation of older Macross productions achieves this particularly well by cheating with the incremental nature of frame animation; whereas live action records a perfect linear path of a moving object from frame to frame, anime artists cheat by drawing the stills of a fast moving object farther from one frame to the next, at whatever artificial rate they feel is necessary to achieve a desired dramatic effect. That hyper-velocity dramatic animated editing is unique to anime and one of the key reasons many of us fell in love with the artform.

By contrast, CG animation in modern anime must follow the restrictions of physical models and limitations similar to live action. So often times the action feels faster in CG in order to achieve the time-skipping effect of an old-school anime style. But the dramatic result is the same; a stylistic attempt to show movement faster than the eye can follow to achieve a surreal level of speed.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I believe Macross Frontier was a watershed moment in CG anime for Macross. The Frontier series was the first Macross anime in which I felt the action sequences at last managed to marry computer models with an animation style that successfully reproduced that of the old school hand drawn animation. The CG animation is different because the media format is different, but the style is unmistakable. I loved the action sequences in the Macross Frontier series and felt they were definitely a standout in technique even if the dramatic worth of the plotting wasn't as engaging (a totally separate issue from the animation itself).

[Devil 505]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I believe Macross Frontier was a watershed moment in CG anime for Macross. The Frontier series was the first Macross anime in which I felt the action sequences at last managed to marry computer models with an animation style that successfully reproduced that of the old school hand drawn animation. The CG animation is different because the media format is different, but the style is unmistakable. I loved the action sequences in the Macross Frontier series and felt they were definitely a standout in technique even if the dramatic worth of the plotting wasn't as engaging (a totally separate issue from the animation itself).

What about Macross Zero? The dogfights in those OVAs were pretty intense.

[Gakken85]

Is this reaaaaaaaal

or just fantasssssssssy