So I watched the 2 frontier movies, no subs, didn't know what'

[Seto Kaiba]

To be fair, I was only returning the hostility.

's probably not a good decision, on balance... better to kill the a-holes with kindness and let the moderators mop up. It has the added benefit of making you look more reasonable than them.

I don't often seek out movies or tv shows that don't have subs. Which is why I skipped over the frontier series. The Bootleg BDs here don't have eng subs. So my choices were extremely limited. Over 20 episodes and no subs VS a 2 hr movie and no subs...and all i wanted to do was watch some awesomely designed mechs ducking it out and hopefully listen to some great music.

I've mentioned before that in the right hands, a foreign movie can be understood through visuals, tone and music alone.

Just going on my own experience with foreign films in... five languages now(?)... that's actually pretty rare. You can usually get the most basic level of the movie, but in order to really "get it", you need to at least be able to understand what people are saying. Not TOO much, because sometimes that can ruin the movie via bilingual bonus (like how Iron Man has some villains explain the whole plot at the start and the audience is expected not to get it because they're not speaking English).

Sure the character designs are cool, engaging plots, exciting animation...but their endings always leave a lot to be desired. In many aspects in life, it's necessary to find closure. In fiction, you fall in love with these characters, follow them on a journey to seek out whatever it is they are looking for. You wish for them to fulfill their desires BECAUSE that fulfills your desire to watch them succeed, to grow. And when the hero doesn't get what he wants, it has to be within the context of the movie/show. You can't just haphazardly throw in an ending that doesn't jive with the rest of the movie because "I felt like it". There has to be meaning behind it.

Personally, I've always been fine with endings that don't explain everything... so long as there's a feeling of closure about the whole affair, or at least the feeling that these characters have their own lives and their story goes on after our brief window into it ends.

Western audiences, I think, are a little conditioned by sitcoms and comic books to expect stories to just go on and on and on... and that the conclusion has to be some big showy climax that wraps everything up and lets the cast quietly f-off to somewhere else and either deal with the consequences or live happily ever after. Done well, that kind of ending can be very satisfying. More often than not, that kind of ending is done poorly and feels like a cop-out (e.g. the Battlestar Galactica reboot, or, gods forbid, Lost... because we certainly were).

Ending a story takes just as much, if not more, writing chops than starting one does... because you NEED that closure. To draw on some of my favorite titles as examples, you can have good endings that wrap up every little detail of the plot (like Outlaw Star or the anime "gecko ending" for Soul Eater), or ones that leave you hanging with the feeling of some greater mystery denied or a that your cast is going to need some time to cope with the consequences of their actions (like the endings of Big O or Needless). Then we've got the bad endings that either get so bogged down in obsessive tying-up of loose ends that the ending is a train wreck (the second season of Code Geass) or so unsatisfying and abrupt that you have to ask yourself "Did I just read/see that?" (like the ending of the manga version of Soul Eater). Macross usually ends up on the good side of things, whether they've neatly tied up the loose ends in the story with the feeling that it's very much over (Macross Plus) or the feeling that "this adventure is over, but their story is only just beginning" (like Macross Frontier's). The very worst offenders are the ones that reach a neat, logical ending and then just forget to stop... the most blatant offender that leaps to mind being Bleach, which has done that TWICE.

There's a reasonable amount of meaning in the ending of the Macross Frontier movies, though it's the sort of faintly unsatisfying "the adventure is over, but their story is just beginning" type with the Vajra rescuing Alto from imminent heavy quantum annihilation while they mend fences with humanity. A lot of folks find the "the hero gets the girl" endings more satisfying, but sometimes that's not the most appropriate thing for the story. I think the Macross Frontier movies would've been poorly served by a "and they all lived happily ever after" ending, when the story got kinda dark in places.

Then dynamite happened. To me it felt as if they were developing Basara's relationship with mylene over the course of the show. It's happened before where the unassuming hero realizes at the pivotal moment that "OMG...I DO love her". Did I honestly want to see him run to her and hug it out on a beach? Eff no. That would've been outta character. But the way she chased after him at the end of dynamite so she can tell him how she feels, only for him pat her on the head and...fly off?? That's the payoff?

As wacky as Macross Dynamite 7 ended up being, that's not something that honestly shocked me. They were NOT subtle back in the Macross 7 about Basara being borderline asexual in his failure to notice ANY woman except the vampire-fanged space demon who wanted to eat his goddamn mind. Mylene spends a lot of time mooning over him, and he only notices her when she's around thirty seconds from lodging the nearest piece of furniture in his frontal lobe. When Sivil possesses Rex and Akiko, he's completely unmoved by their overly sexual advances... Akiko-Sivil comes on hot and heavy while they're alone, and all he notices is that she happens to be standing on his lunch, while Rex-Sivil is one good yawn away from showing off her huge... tracts of land... and he's only interested in noodling on his guitar. He's easily the most clueless Macross protagonist we've ever had.

The way he left in Dynamite 7 made a lot of sense for the character... he didn't really see Mylene as a romantic partner, but as a fellow musician. Once she came into her own (in his opinion) and he'd already fulfilled his dream, it was "mission accomplished" followed by "exit stage right to make way for the next generation". He genuinely doesn't get that she's got the hots for him... and yeah, that's the payoff. He's helped her come into her own as a musician, and feels his work here is done.

Lol man that really bugs me. So many pieces of fiction are like that. SW, LOTR, ST, Street fighter. At the same time, i guess there is a bit of excitement to searching and digging for information that's not immediately given to you. Like there's a sort of privilege to all of that. On the other hand, non Japanese speakers are SOL and would have to rely on people such as yourself and my friend who was the one that told me about Hikaru and crew getting lost in the galaxy.

I like my fiction to be a bit more simplified. What's there is there. No need to "get more of the action in the prequel comic book or going online to their website to find out what REALLY happened to so and so!!"

Done well, it can be a stimulating way to explore the setting of a large metaseries like Macross with the possibilities inherent in the other forms of media. Macross is really good at this. So's Gundam. You can have parallel stories set at the same time, even in the same place, without the two stories overlapping with each other because the universe is a BIG place. Macross 7 Trash is a decent example of this.

Outside Macross, another example might be Louie the Rune Soldier... it's set in the same setting as Record of Lodoss War, but the tone and story are so radically different that it almost feels like someone's playing a nasty prank the first time you find out that they don't just share a setting, but that the two locations are geographically really close to each other. I think my favorite example has become the Horus Heresy series of novels for Warhammer 40,000... a huge amount of material that's both fundamental to what's done in the main story WITHOUT being a prerequisite to enjoyment of the main story, it builds the universe without building up an enormous list of "stuff you have to have read to know what's going on".

Done BADLY, like Star Trek's reboot movies, Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, etc., there's a lot of "disposable fiction" that has no bearing on, or relevance to, the setting and a fair few more cases where you don't get the whole story of the actual movie or series unless you also read a limited-edition comic book that most of the audience didn't even know was a thing. Star Trek didn't explain much about how Spock and the Romulans ended up in the alternate universe except in the comic, and Robotech made the villain's motivation something that was only explained in the limited edition comic book and never touched on in the Shadow Chronicles movie.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Seto Kaiba

[Cdr Fokker]

I just wanted to say I thought Dynamite 7 was one of the best parts of Macross 7, and a genuinely fun OVA.

And I don't recall the rest of the normal 7 cast as really doing all of that much in Dynamite - that is, IIRC, the whole story is entirely focused on Basara. The search for him by Gamlin and Mylene was all secondary. (And I know I never really cared; I was totally okay with it just being about Basara being a sort of wandering minstrel.)

The love trinagle remains as resolved as it ever was. Gamlin loves Mylene, Mylene loves Basara, Basara loves music, and the whole dang bridge crew loves Max... err, except Exedol. None of these loves are requited.

Pretty much. And as previously mentioned, with 7 itself, you also had the triangle of Basara-Sivil-Gigil, IMO, the closest "real" love triangle in 7. The Gamlin-Mylene-Basara thing really doesn't exist as a traditional triangle, because Basara isn't interested in much of anyone in particular (except possibly Sivil - and whether that was actual feeling for Sivil versus just wanting to prove the power of his song is a debate unto itself).

[Kyp Durron]

But in that regard, at least DYRL didn't deviate too much from SDFM right? Doesn't the frontier movie go way off track from the series?

Quite true, but I will always prefer the T.V. series and consider it cannon, in my mind. The frontier movies were a good bit different from the series, and I still prefer the series ending compared the the movies ending.

However if this helps :

And yes, that image is official, so there you go.

[Roy Focker]

Look they had to keep Alpo's breasts concealed in a kimono!

[Kanedas Bike]

Hard for me to understand the initial, fairly passionate/negative response to the ending of Frontier Movies, watched with or without sound.

Granted I wasn't a fan of the movie endings either and as such I tend to gravitate more towards the TV series for what I like about Frontier as an entry in the Macross universe, but it never occurred to me to lash out or to call the movies crap.

And IMHO the first post set the tone for the early responses;

W.T.F...

Can someone please explain to me wtf happened to alto? Was it necessary for him to disappear? Did they At any point in both movies foreshadow that?!? OMG I can't believe I sat through this crap.

My friend warned me that I should just stick to the tv series. Boy...I should've listened. OMG wtf???.

Edited by Brooklynwolf, Yesterday, 10:53 AM.

Even if one was inclined to agree, at a high level that the Macross Frontier movies were lacking they may have steered clear of the topic.

Very happy to see that cooler heads prevailed, especially since it may be, or was, worth discussing why the movie ending was left so...open to interpretation.

-b.

[Brooklynwolf]

The Macross Frontier movies actually gave you a conclusion, for the first time since DYRL.

Alto chose Sherly. Alto folded with the Vajra

We know what happened.. so why is this frustrating?

The TV series had an ending that was worse, where

both Ranka and Sheryl choose Alto, and Alto chose flying.

MF was a much better Series overall, than the movies.

The series became week when Grace became the main antagonist. If you

switched the series ending, with the Movie taking over, it would have been

a perfect ending. Basically when Grace takes over the plot, if you switched that

to the group using Grace, and switched to the last 25 minutes or so of SNT.

You might have had a single solid show. However if you haven't watched the series

in Full, you're missing out on really the greatness of MF.

My first point still remains valid, you can't judge a show where you essentially watched it

in Mute.

But isn't the ending with alto and Sheryl ambiguous? Aceoftherebellion mentioned you don't hear what is said...so once again, it's not solid enough for a full closure.

For my tastes, I'd like to see something more solid, fleshed out. Similar to what we've seen in DYRL and plus. I mentioned numerous times that anime/Japanese sensibilities always leave a lot to be desired when it comes to their choices in a story's "conclusion".

Again I can't compliment on the frontier TV series since I haven't seen it, so I'm gonna have to take your word for it. However, Knowing how it ends through wiki and having been told here, well, I'd be super pissed off again.

Despite your efforts, The ending still doesn't sit well with me, but I appreciate it nonetheless...even though you did post that max facepalming jpg...but it's cool since you took the time out to provide an explanation.

Now I'm not about to apologize for my initial post, because like I said earlier, I've seen a few unsubbed films and walked away satisfied, and eventually sought out a subbed ver so I can gain an EVEN better understanding of the story. the second movie was one of a few foreign films I've seen w/o subs that pissed me off, and once again, I've been away from macross for so long and desperately wanted to get back into it. All I wanted was for shoji to change it up and surprise me with a conclusion in the spirit of DYRL and Plus. And when I didn't get it...well, I was super pissed. I felt robbed again. You can defend shoji all you want, but in the end, it was MY OPINION. I wasn't hurting anyone y'know? This next line might upset you, but don't let it...

It's like the prequels. Universally hated, panned, and is widely believed to be proof that Lucas done goofed. Then you have those that still support him. I'm not gonna call those supporters idiots. It's their choice. Maybe they saw something in those films that I don't see. EVERY SW fan just wants a series of SW films that has the same spirit of the OT. In my case, I just want a macross story that has the same spirit of the two movies I grew up with and loved...dearly.

I can't believe I just remembered this as I was typing...and I swear, this is true.

The first time I saw DYRL was on a VCD...Chinese subtitles. At that time, despite being a Chinese American, I couldn't read a lick of Chinese (well I still can't now, but I know more than I did back then). I STILL got the story. Little details such as minmay growing up, hikarus hinted past, fockers lady advice wasn't made clear until I finally got a properly subbed version...and that was a yr or two later. But overall? I got what the movie was saying. I smiled at the end. My heart broke when minmay realized Hikaru no longer loved her, I was shocked when focker died...but I walked away smiling, satisfied.

I didn't get any of that with the 2nd movie.

My frustration was aimed at the movies ending as well as shoji's past choices. It's not like I screamed out "whoever likes this is a moron that doesn't understand story telling!!". I'm sure there were films (western or foreign) you hated and immediately wanted to vent out your anger. I don't see any reason why anyone has to react in a nasty way because I just so happened to be deeply dissatisfied with a movie.

Quite true, but I will always prefer the T.V. series and consider it cannon, in my mind. The frontier movies were a good bit different from the series, and I still prefer the series ending compared the the movies ending.

However if this helps :And yes, that image is official, so there you go.

What the deuce?? That is...interesting.

Is there more behind it?

[Brooklynwolf]

's probably not a good decision, on balance... better to kill the a-holes with kindness and let the moderators mop up. It has the added benefit of making you look more reasonable than them.

Point taken. I usually do ignore them. Sometimes though, you just can't help yourself haha.

Just going on my own experience with foreign films in... five languages now(?)... that's actually pretty rare. You can usually get the most basic level of the movie, but in order to really "get it", you need to at least be able to understand what people are saying. Not TOO much, because sometimes that can ruin the movie via bilingual bonus (like how Iron Man has some villains explain the whole plot at the start and the audience is expected not to get it because they're not speaking English).

Oh that goes a/o saying that in order to truly get a film, you have to view it in a format you understand. The foreign films I watched and was satisfied with, I always find a subbed version of them and rewatch it so I can appreciate EVERY thing about it.

Personally, I've always been fine with endings that don't explain everything... so long as there's a feeling of closure about the whole affair, or at least the feeling that these characters have their own lives and their story goes on after our brief window into it ends.

Likewise...when it's done properly though. It can't be slapped on like duct tape.

Western audiences, I think, are a little conditioned by sitcoms and comic books to expect stories to just go on and on and on... and that the conclusion has to be some big showy climax that wraps everything up and lets the cast quietly f-off to somewhere else and either deal with the consequences or live happily ever after. Done well, that kind of ending can be very satisfying. More often than not, that kind of ending is done poorly and feels like a cop-out (e.g. the Battlestar Galactica reboot, or, gods forbid, Lost... because we certainly were).

One ending in recent memory that drew quite a bit of controversy was the sopranos. That ending I liked. Could journeys "don't stop believing" have anything to do with it? Lol probably. But the way the show was designed, the themes, motifs and overall tone and structure made the finale feel....appropriate. Like I wasn't pissed. It was more like...wow.

Ending a story takes just as much, if not more, writing chops than starting one does... because you NEED that closure. To draw on some of my favorite titles as examples, you can have good endings that wrap up every little detail of the plot (like Outlaw Star or the anime "gecko ending" for Soul Eater), or ones that leave you hanging with the feeling of some greater mystery denied or a that your cast is going to need some time to cope with the consequences of their actions (like the endings of Big O or Needless). Then we've got the bad endings that either get so bogged down in obsessive tying-up of loose ends that the ending is a train wreck (the second season of Code Geass) or so unsatisfying and abrupt that you have to ask yourself "Did I just read/see that?" (like the ending of the manga version of Soul Eater). Macross usually ends up on the good side of things, whether they've neatly tied up the loose ends in the story with the feeling that it's very much over (Macross Plus) or the feeling that "this adventure is over, but their story is only just beginning" (like Macross Frontier's). The very worst offenders are the ones that reach a neat, logical ending and then just forget to stop... the most blatant offender that leaps to mind being Bleach, which has done that TWICE.

That was very well put. I like how your examples show that there can be extremes on both ends, and it's quite a challenge to find a happy medium.

There's a reasonable amount of meaning in the ending of the Macross Frontier movies, though it's the sort of faintly unsatisfying "the adventure is over, but their story is just beginning" type with the Vajra rescuing Alto from imminent heavy quantum annihilation while they mend fences with humanity. A lot of folks find the "the hero gets the girl" endings more satisfying, but sometimes that's not the most appropriate thing for the story. I think the Macross Frontier movies would've been poorly served by a "and they all lived happily ever after" ending, when the story got kinda dark in places.

Lol i don't want a Disney fairy tale type ending in all of my fiction. I just feel that shoji needs to take a step back and approach his finales from a different angle. Frontier 2's ending wouldn't have hit me that way if there was another sequel in the works. I honestly hope that he mixes it up and can give a satisfying, more conventional type ending with the next macross series.

As wacky as Macross Dynamite 7 ended up being, that's not something that honestly shocked me. They were NOT subtle back in the Macross 7 about Basara being borderline asexual in his failure to notice ANY woman except the vampire-fanged space demon who wanted to eat his goddamn mind. Mylene spends a lot of time mooning over him, and he only notices her when she's around thirty seconds from lodging the nearest piece of furniture in his frontal lobe. When Sivil possesses Rex and Akiko, he's completely unmoved by their overly sexual advances... Akiko-Sivil comes on hot and heavy while they're alone, and all he notices is that she happens to be standing on his lunch, while Rex-Sivil is one good yawn away from showing off her huge... tracts of land... and he's only interested in noodling on his guitar. He's easily the most clueless Macross protagonist we've ever had.

The way he left in Dynamite 7 made a lot of sense for the character... he didn't really see Mylene as a romantic partner, but as a fellow musician. Once she came into her own (in his opinion) and he'd already fulfilled his dream, it was "mission accomplished" followed by "exit stage right to make way for the next generation". He genuinely doesn't get that she's got the hots for him... and yeah, that's the payoff. He's helped her come into her own as a musician, and feels his work here is done.

Ugh...I dunno. If dynamite had a story that was as engaging as the effin intro, maybe...just MAYBE the ending could've reached "annoyingly acceptable" status for me. IMO, macross is always defined by 3 of its staples that separate it from other anime.

Love, music, holy **** that's a sweet looking mech.

7 and dynamite truly missed the mark with the love aspect.

Done well, it can be a stimulating way to explore the setting of a large metaseries like Macross with the possibilities inherent in the other forms of media. Macross is really good at this. So's Gundam. You can have parallel stories set at the same time, even in the same place, without the two stories overlapping with each other because the universe is a BIG place. Macross 7 Trash is a decent example of this.

Outside Macross, another example might be Louie the Rune Soldier... it's set in the same setting as Record of Lodoss War, but the tone and story are so radically different that it almost feels like someone's playing a nasty prank the first time you find out that they don't just share a setting, but that the two locations are geographically really close to each other. I think my favorite example has become the Horus Heresy series of novels for Warhammer 40,000... a huge amount of material that's both fundamental to what's done in the main story WITHOUT being a prerequisite to enjoyment of the main story, it builds the universe without building up an enormous list of "stuff you have to have read to know what's going on".

Done BADLY, like Star Trek's reboot movies, Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, etc., there's a lot of "disposable fiction" that has no bearing on, or relevance to, the setting and a fair few more cases where you don't get the whole story of the actual movie or series unless you also read a limited-edition comic book that most of the audience didn't even know was a thing. Star Trek didn't explain much about how Spock and the Romulans ended up in the alternate universe except in the comic, and Robotech made the villain's motivation something that was only explained in the limited edition comic book and never touched on in the Shadow Chronicles movie.

But when the material is locked to one country, it's frustrating as a fan....**** you HG!!!!

When so many details for a fictional universe are spread out over different mediums, I agree that it can be fun putting it all together neatly in a collection. Like...you just built the ultimate library for all things *insert your choice of fiction*.

But again, when it's locked to one language...it's depressing, knowing that there's so much more you can't access.

[Brooklynwolf]

Hard for me to understand the initial, fairly passionate/negative response to the ending of Frontier Movies, watched with or without sound.

Granted I wasn't a fan of the movie endings either and as such I tend to gravitate more towards the TV series for what I like about Frontier as an entry in the Macross universe, but it never occurred to me to lash out or to call the movies crap.

And IMHO the first post set the tone for the early responses;

W.T.F...

Can someone please explain to me wtf happened to alto? Was it necessary for him to disappear? Did they At any point in both movies foreshadow that?!? OMG I can't believe I sat through this crap.

My friend warned me that I should just stick to the tv series. Boy...I should've listened. OMG wtf???.

Edited by Brooklynwolf, Yesterday, 10:53 AM.

Even if one was inclined to agree, at a high level that the Macross Frontier movies were lacking they may have steered clear of the topic.

Very happy to see that cooler heads prevailed, especially since it may be, or was, worth discussing why the movie ending was left so...open to interpretation.

-b.

Ever walk out of a movie theater feeling utter disgust and blood boiling rage? And then say out loud to a friend "wtf did we just watch? I want my money back!"

If not, then, I don't know what to say. I'm sure others here have. I mean...I KNOW I'm not the only that has walked out of a theater and felt the urge to take a hot shower to scrub away the experience of watching a horrible movie. You may not have felt the way I did about frontier, but I sure as hell did.

And no offense to you, but if people mistook my "lashing out" at the movie as an insult to them...well, that's their problem, not mine. I wasn't insulting anyone nor was I insulting their family. I've mentioned this before, if I straight up said "whoever liked this is a moron", then I shouldn't be confused as to why folks would treat me rudely.

And if you've been following this thread, have I not been having a calm conversation with other members? Lol you make it sound like I'm a raging beast trying to bring the walls down around us and the cool members here are keeping me in check. C'mon man. And it's thanks to those that DID have a clue as to what I was going through are we all able to keep this going. And I have in fact gained a clearer answer to not just frontiers ending, but other things as well.

Should you or anyone start a topic bashing the **** out of something I liked, I wouldn't act like a jerk and would try to see why it is you felt that way. But if you're rude and start making comments about my personal life...well, I'd either respond in the same way or I'd just ignore you.

Not meant to be an insult, but there are people that are way too sensitive when it comes down to things that, ultimately, have no connection to their personal life. Instead of strapping into a valk and blasting all those missiles, they should take a moment to read what is actually being said. Ironically, some felt I judged the movie too rashly...didn't they do the same thing themselves and judge me?

[Kyp Durron]

But isn't the ending with alto and Sheryl ambiguous? Aceoftherebellion mentioned you don't hear what is said...so once again, it's not solid enough for a full closure.

For my tastes, I'd like to see something more solid, fleshed out. Similar to what we've seen in DYRL and plus. I mentioned numerous times that anime/Japanese sensibilities always leave a lot to be desired when it comes to their choices in a story's "conclusion".

Again I can't compliment on the frontier TV series since I haven't seen it, so I'm gonna have to take your word for it. However, Knowing how it ends through wiki and having been told here, well, I'd be super pissed off again.

Despite your efforts, The ending still doesn't sit well with me, but I appreciate it nonetheless...even though you did post that max facepalming jpg...but it's cool since you took the time out to provide an explanation.

Now I'm not about to apologize for my initial post, because like I said earlier, I've seen a few unsubbed films and walked away satisfied, and eventually sought out a subbed ver so I can gain an EVEN better understanding of the story. the second movie was one of a few foreign films I've seen w/o subs that pissed me off, and once again, I've been away from macross for so long and desperately wanted to get back into it. All I wanted was for shoji to change it up and surprise me with a conclusion in the spirit of DYRL and Plus. And when I didn't get it...well, I was super pissed. I felt robbed again. You can defend shoji all you want, but in the end, it was MY OPINION. I wasn't hurting anyone y'know? This next line might upset you, but don't let it...

It's like the prequels. Universally hated, panned, and is widely believed to be proof that Lucas done goofed. Then you have those that still support him. I'm not gonna call those supporters idiots. It's their choice. Maybe they saw something in those films that I don't see. EVERY SW fan just wants a series of SW films that has the same spirit of the OT. In my case, I just want a macross story that has the same spirit of the two movies I grew up with and loved...dearly.

I can't believe I just remembered this as I was typing...and I swear, this is true.

The first time I saw DYRL was on a VCD...Chinese subtitles. At that time, despite being a Chinese American, I couldn't read a lick of Chinese (well I still can't now, but I know more than I did back then). I STILL got the story. Little details such as minmay growing up, hikarus hinted past, fockers lady advice wasn't made clear until I finally got a properly subbed version...and that was a yr or two later. But overall? I got what the movie was saying. I smiled at the end. My heart broke when minmay realized Hikaru no longer loved her, I was shocked when focker died...but I walked away smiling, satisfied.

I didn't get any of that with the 2nd movie.

My frustration was aimed at the movies ending as well as shoji's past choices. It's not like I screamed out "whoever likes this is a moron that doesn't understand story telling!!". I'm sure there were films (western or foreign) you hated and immediately wanted to vent out your anger. I don't see any reason why anyone has to react in a nasty way because I just so happened to be deeply dissatisfied with a movie.

What the deuce?? That is...interesting.

Is there more behind it?

Not really, from what little I know it was from the Sheryl Nome final visual collection, depicting her waking up from her coma and finding that Alto had returned. So, there's your ending, and that's how I personally see it as well, so I don't feel quite as bad about the movie's ending.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Kyp Durron

[aceoftherebellion]

It's not quite as ambiguous as the way i probably made it sound. One of the quirks of the way japanese language works. You could translate it as something like "Sherryl, I Love-" with the rest cut off, but enough of the sentence spat out to at least know what was intended to be conveyed.

But since that's not the part of the ending that bothered me personally, and since that's far from my only complaint about the films, I wouldn't say the ambiguity itself is what I find bothersome. (Characterization that's been simplified to the point of outright flandarization for some of the characters is probably the top of my personal list of grievences) The films were rushed. Do You Remember Love simplified the storyline too, but apart from a dip in the middle, it was clever enough to still convey the point to the original series, and my opinion on the frontier films is that they just fail to do that. They made an ambitious attempt, but it just fell short to me, with an ending (ambiguous or not) that I just found overall unsatisfying being the topper.

[Mr March]

LOL, haven't seen one of these topics in a while

I'm with Kaneda on this one; a beligerent post leads to other beligerent posts. You're clearly aware, so you knew what you were getting into posting an extreme criticism of a Macross anime on a Macross message board filled with Macross fans. The heated replies were actually far milder than they could have been.

I can understand fans advising you to view the Macross Frontier films with some proper subtitles so you could at least understand what was going on. However, based on what you've posted about your broader thoughts on popular culture, movies, TV and anime specifically, IMO you were never going to like the movies anyway. Watching them without subtitles probably only made a bad situation much worse, which probably explains your frustrated post. I'm surprised you even made it to the second film. Now, it's possible talking about the movies here and then perhaps sometime later deciding to watch them again in subtitles might warm you to the movies. But if you hate the Frontier films this much now, it's unlikely you'll ever be a fan. At best, your opinions may cool. I'd say try some other Macross instead; there's plenty to enjoy.

Also - while the Macross Frontier movies are a bad example - I'd say open your mind and broaden your horizons a little. Stop defining all entertainment by some rigid demand that every story you watch wrap up in a tidy, facile little bow that's easy to digest. There is just as much of that brand of colorless entertainment that lacks merit as there is joyful entertainment that truly statisfies. Expecting this same convenient moderation in all entertainment - regardless of theme, subject or style - is an unrealistic demand that will prevent you from enjoying an entire world of excellent entertainment that is as good (at odd times, perhaps even better) than the conventional fare that caters to safer and more mundane desires.

Oh, and welcome to the forums, hahahaha

[Mommar]

Not really, from what little I know it was from the Sheryl Nome final visual collection, depicting her waking up from her coma and finding that Alto had returned. So, there's your ending, and that's how I personally see it as well, so I don't feel quite as bad about the movie's ending.

Why was she stark naked in her coma?

"Hey, Sheryl is in a coma... wanna strip her?"

[Brooklynwolf]

Not really, from what little I know it was from the Sheryl Nome final visual collection, depicting her waking up from her coma and finding that Alto had returned. So, there's your ending, and that's how I personally see it as well, so I don't feel quite as bad about the movie's ending.

Now that's something that would've made this pill easier to consume. So for further clarification...the visual collection is...cannon yes?

It's not quite as ambiguous as the way i probably made it sound. One of the quirks of the way japanese language works. You could translate it as something like "Sherryl, I Love-" with the rest cut off, but enough of the sentence spat out to at least know what was intended to be conveyed.

But since that's not the part of the ending that bothered me personally, and since that's far from my only complaint about the films, I wouldn't say the ambiguity itself is what I find bothersome. (Characterization that's been simplified to the point of outright flandarization for some of the characters is probably the top of my personal list of grievences) The films were rushed. Do You Remember Love simplified the storyline too, but apart from a dip in the middle, it was clever enough to still convey the point to the original series, and my opinion on the frontier films is that they just fail to do that. They made an ambitious attempt, but it just fell short to me, with an ending (ambiguous or not) that I just found overall unsatisfying being the topper.

I think the original series simple (by no means an insult) storyline was what allowed DYRL to work as a 2 hr movie.

Since I haven't seen the frontier series, i can't comment too much on whether things were rushed or not. The first movie did seem unrefined, whereas the 2nd felt better in terms of a 3 act structure; beginning, middle and end.

LOL, haven't seen one of these topics in a while :)I'm with Kaneda on this one; a beligerent post leads to other beligerent posts. You're clearly aware, so you knew what you were getting into posting an extreme criticism of a Macross anime on a Macross message board filled with Macross fans. The heated replies were actually far milder than they could have been.I can understand fans advising you to view the Macross Frontier films with some proper subtitles so you could at least understand what was going on. However, based on what you've posted about your broader thoughts on popular culture, movies, TV and anime specifically, IMO you were never going to like the movies anyway. Watching them without subtitles probably only made a bad situation much worse, which probably explains your frustrated post. I'm surprised you even made it to the second film. Now, it's possible talking about the movies here and then perhaps sometime later deciding to watch them again in subtitles might warm you to the movies. But if you hate the Frontier films this much now, it's unlikely you'll ever be a fan. At best, your opinions may cool. I'd say try some other Macross instead; there's plenty to enjoy.Also - while the Macross Frontier movies are a bad example - I'd say open your mind and broaden your horizons a little. Stop defining all entertainment by some rigid demand that every story you watch wrap up in a tidy, facile little bow that's easy to digest. There is just as much of that brand of colorless entertainment that lacks merit as there is joyful entertainment that truly statisfies. Expecting this same convenient moderation in all entertainment - regardless of theme, subject or style - is an unrealistic demand that will prevent you from enjoying an entire world of excellent entertainment that is as good (at odd times, perhaps even better) than the conventional fare that caters to safer and more mundane desires.Oh, and welcome to the forums, hahahaha

First off, thanks for welcoming me. I am having fun talking to others about a franchise I adore, as well as browsing the toys threads.

Secondly...I was aware my initial post wasn't gonna be a great way to introduce myself. But I had confidence that there would be those, such as yourself, that can tell I'm NOT insulting anyone. Like I said in my last post...if people got offended, not my problem.

Finally, dude, I had no idea what I was getting myself into with the movies. Had I known before hand, I would've either just skipped it entirely, or still watched it just for Valkyrie action. As for getting into other things macross? Well, I'll still have DYRL and plus. Classics never die.

And I'm not entirely sure you read through my replies. Granted I'm not expecting you to, since I have written A LOT. But my horizons are pretty broad. I'll try and sum up what I said earlier. I do enjoy the occasional cold ending, cliff hanger, mind ****, unresolved loose end type finales. I honestly do. But there's a time and place for that and shouldn't be used EVERYTIME. It's lazy, uncreative and it loses it's impact. It's like having Godzilla show up every 3 mins. Eventually his appearance won't have that "holy s***" moment half way through the movie. These endings are a story telling device that should be used to service the story, not thrown in there for shock value or "just because". If a director like say...Spielberg, who definitely has his own style and has plenty of director trademarks, relied on the same story trope in EVERY SINGLE MOVIE he directs, it'll get old, boring and show he hadn't grown as a storyteller. It's not some rigid demand or whatever it is you may think I have, it's just common sense.

I mean, there are those that defend every decision shoji makes...ok, that's fine. I have a great amount of respect for the guy too, but I'm not gonna pretend that everything he touches is gold. I did that once with George Lucas when he made the prequels...but then I grew up and realized just how awful the PT truly was.

I do feel excitement for the next series...but that's more for the Valkyrie designs, not so much for the story...considering how the last few series went. So I'm gonna wiki the ending and if it's another unreosolved ending, I'm gonna pass once again. Yeah. No big loss on your end, i know. I'll just rewatch DYRL and Plus. IMO, THAT was some quality stuff.

[Kanedas Bike]

No offense given, none taken.

And yes I've felt passionately (in one way or the other) about many movies, books, etc. - but one thing I've learned when trying to communicate with others is that often times it's not what I say, but how I say it. So regardless of subject matter it's a good lesson (for lack of a better term) to remember and one I have to remind myself of daily - especially if the communication is non-verbal and not face-to-face.

Welcome to the forums. If you're also a "toy" guy then I'll probably see you more in that section of the forum as that's my main interest as well (though I do love DYRL, Macross Plus, Frontier (TV and movie) enough to peak my head in here every now and again).

-b.

[Brooklynwolf]

No offense given, none taken.

And yes I've felt passionately (in one way or the other) about many movies, books, etc. - but one thing I've learned when trying to communicate with others is that often times it's not what I say, but how I say it. So regardless of subject matter it's a good lesson (for lack of a better term) to remember and one I have to remind myself of daily - especially if the communication is non-verbal and not face-to-face.

Welcome to the forums. If you're also a "toy" guy then I'll probably see you more in that section of the forum as that's my main interest as well (though I do love DYRL, Macross Plus, Frontier (TV and movie) enough to peak my head in here every now and again).

-b.

Suggestion noted.

Yes I am definitely a toy guy haha. Ever since I started collecting valks again, I actually went through 3 year old threads just to get a sense of the excitement I missed out on. Yamato's releases, arcadia, bandais renewals and yf-29 series...but let's leave that for the toy section hehe.

And thanks, it's good to be here.

[JB0]

Why was she stark naked in her coma?

"Hey, Sheryl is in a coma... wanna strip her?"

I'm sure there was a good medical reason. Probably sanitation purposes. Comatose people still sweat and stuff. Clothes'll get dirty and need changing anyways.

I'm sure it had absolutely nothing to do with any voyeuristic tendencies of the hospital staff whatsoever. Nope. Nothin' at all.

[Kanedas Bike]

Suggestion noted.

Yes I am definitely a toy guy haha. Ever since I started collecting valks again, I actually went through 3 year old threads just to get a sense of the excitement I missed out on. Yamato's releases, arcadia, bandais renewals and yf-29 series...but let's leave that for the toy section hehe.

And thanks, it's good to be here.

HA!

You missed out on a lot more than just the excitement of a new item coming out- and if you want to talk about missed expectations try going through some of those Yamato and early Bandai Macross Frontier releases.

But yeah, lots more fun to be had in the Toy section.

-b.

[skullmilitia]

I do have to say, that the changing of major elements between the movie and the series are very annoying.

The whole "this is Hollywoods version of the story" way of telling Macross is starting to get old.

Just take the easy parts that are annoying to deal with

TV:

Michael dies

Sherly's V-type infection is moved into her gut by Ranka, therefor saving Sheryl

Alto chooses to fly instead of a smoking hot pop singer who loves him.

Bobby never gets Ozma

Movie:

Michael lives
Sherly's V-type infection puts her in a coma

Alto chooses Sheryl at the moment he lands on the queens hand (sense non existent.)

Ozma will always be a bad ass, he gets Cathy in both versions. Because Ozma.

It get's tired some to wait to find out what the "Official" cannon line becomes.

I wish that they'd be less about OVA's with the same characters. Just make one damn

show, that doesn't second guess what the previous does.

[jenius]

I think it should have been ONE two hour long movie and it should have begun with Frontier showing up to save Galaxy and taking on a bunch of Galaxy refugees (Galaxy could have been attacked while Sheryl was performing on Galaxy). Then Sheryl gives a concert as a thank you with Ranka as the opening act. Ranka struggles and Alto and Sheryl team up to help her out. Later you see that Galaxy saw they were losing their quest to control the Vajra but were very close so they set things up so Frontier would be there to rescue them and they would then do a coup of Frontier and continue their efforts. Leon and the president should have had their plot line dropped entirely. Once the coup begins everyone believes Sheryl was in on it and feels betrayed but Sheryl finds some way of helping SMS out to regain their trust. Luca should have been less of a whiz and the prison break scene goes away. Hijacked Frontier then tries to control the Vajra but SMS with help from UN Spacy saves the day. Michael dies. Brera dies (screw that guy). Alto can still disappear at the end.

[Brooklynwolf]

HA!

You missed out on a lot more than just the excitement of a new item coming out- and if you want to talk about missed expectations try going through some of those Yamato and early Bandai Macross Frontier releases.

But yeah, lots more fun to be had in the Toy section.-b.

I had read through some of those threads. My god man...bandai done goofed with the V1 releases!

It kinda sucks I was late to the game...however the bright side is I was fortunate enough to not be boned by their V1 toys. Epic blunder on bandais end.

They are lucky as **** that early adopters were so forgiving and still picked up the renewals. I mean, it wasn't like releasing a patch or update for a game for crying out loud! Mind boggling.

I do have to say, that the changing of major elements between the movie and the series are very annoying.

The whole "this is Hollywoods version of the story" way of telling Macross is starting to get old.

Just take the easy parts that are annoying to deal with

TV:

Michael dies

Sherly's V-type infection is moved into her gut by Ranka, therefor saving Sheryl

Alto chooses to fly instead of a smoking hot pop singer who loves him.

Bobby never gets Ozma

Movie:

Michael lives

Sherly's V-type infection puts her in a coma

Alto chooses Sheryl at the moment he lands on the queens hand (sense non existent.)

Ozma will always be a bad ass, he gets Cathy in both versions. Because Ozma.

It get's tired some to wait to find out what the "Official" cannon line becomes.

I wish that they'd be less about OVA's with the same characters. Just make one damn

show, that doesn't second guess what the previous does.

The way the frontier movies separate themselves from the series is downright confusing man.

I mean, going back to the earlier series I.e. SDF, DYRL, MPOVA, MP movie ed...they made changes due to run time or took things out because they served no purpose within the context of the movie versions...but at least the core was still there! Major events from the series remained intact in the movie versions, or at the very least, retold while retaining the original intent. I mean, having Michael live is almost like keeping focker alive in DYRL, or rather than have guld heroically sacrifice himself to stop the ghost, he doesn't. Complete head scratcher. Was Michael THAT popular and was allowed to live due to fan backlash? And I take it that ozma's badassery remained unchanged right? He was pretty badass in the films.

IMO, that goes beyond retelling a story. It's downright retconning. And based on some answers here, there's no true answer as to which one is more...canon..er....

I'm not looking for more reasons to hate frontier. It's just...bwuhuh? What?

Edited September 16, 2014 by Brooklynwolf

[Brooklynwolf]

I think it should have been ONE two hour long movie and it should have begun with Frontier showing up to save Galaxy and taking on a bunch of Galaxy refugees (Galaxy could have been attacked while Sheryl was performing on Galaxy). Then Sheryl gives a concert as a thank you with Ranka as the opening act. Ranka struggles and Alto and Sheryl team up to help her out. Later you see that Galaxy saw they were losing their quest to control the Vajra but were very close so they set things up so Frontier would be there to rescue them and they would then do a coup of Frontier and continue their efforts. Leon and the president should have had their plot line dropped entirely. Once the coup begins everyone believes Sheryl was in on it and feels betrayed but Sheryl finds some way of helping SMS out to regain their trust. Luca should have been less of a whiz and the prison break scene goes away. Hijacked Frontier then tries to control the Vajra but SMS with help from UN Spacy saves the day. Michael dies. Brera dies (screw that guy). Alto can still disappear at the end.

To my understanding, wasn't the bulk of the 1st frontier movie recycled from the series similar to plus?

[jenius]

As I recall, it didn't recycle as much as the Plus movie but yes, I'm sure some of the animation was lifted from the show to save a couple bucks (which were then spent on overly elaborate musical numbers).

[Brooklynwolf]

As I recall, it didn't recycle as much as the Plus movie but yes, I'm sure some of the animation was lifted from the show to save a couple bucks (which were then spent on overly elaborate musical numbers).

If they went all out and pulled a DYRL full blown movie like how you suggested...IMO it probably would've been a much tighter story.

Btw, off topic for a sec...your vid reviews, tutorials and articles are awesome man. In depth and very thorough. I don't have the balls to transform my valks for fearing of breaking them, so I enjoy them vicariously through your vids lol. You rock bro.

And where is my arcadia yf-19 review man?!

[jenius]

Well the next review I put up will show a toy that is falling apart after a couple reviews so that should make you feel pretty good about your decision not to transform them! I'm waiting on a buddy to ship me my 19 still (along with a bunch of other stuff). I was moving for a few months and since then he's been crazy busy so my stuff is stuck in Japan. That will definitely be the first review I do when that box arrives.

[Brooklynwolf]

Well the next review I put up will show a toy that is falling apart after a couple reviews so that should make you feel pretty good about your decision not to transform them! I'm waiting on a buddy to ship me my 19 still (along with a bunch of other stuff). I was moving for a few months and since then he's been crazy busy so my stuff is stuck in Japan. That will definitely be the first review I do when that box arrives.

....oh boy...that's not very good. Any hints to what it is? If not, when should we expect it?

As for the yf-19...that's sucks man. Big time. Been looking forward to it for a loooong time.

[aceoftherebellion]

To my understanding, wasn't the bulk of the 1st frontier movie recycled from the series similar to plus?

Only portions of the first 45 minutes, and even then large sections were newly animated. The first film was something like 70% new animation with a few select scenes from the TV show spliced in where appropriate, the second film was almost entirely new animation apart from maybe a few seconds of flashback here and there.

Most of the problems are with the film, though. The TV version is solid and really doesn't have the problems the film had, so don't let the crappyness of the films deter you from giving the TV version a shot. The films are almost a complete retelling/retcon, and since there's no word on canon anyway, you're 100% safe to completely ignore them in favor of the TV version.

Jenius- That the 171?

Edited September 16, 2014 by aceoftherebellion

[brouken]

Hello Brooklynwolf! Welcome to MW! I acknowledge your passion for Macross and anime in general and would like to throw in my own observations about the ending of the Macross F Movie.

The song that Sheryl and Ranka were singing during the final battle is titled "Sayonara no Tsubasa" (translated: Wings of Goodbye), which is the same title of the second movie. The lyrics of the song essentially talks about the Norse legend of the Valkyrie, which are the winged female warriors who come down to escort fallen warriors who were deemed worthy of entry into Valhalla. I guess Kawamori-san was trying to play a bit into this legend by having the Queen Vajra pick up Alto who was a "fallen warrior" of sorts (he was about face death by heavy quantum beams from the NUNS and SMS fleet). I guess the Vajra found him worthy of being rescued and essentially accepted into Vajra society.

You could also say that Sheryl and Ranka were the "valkyrie" who lifted everyone up from the battlefield with their song (they did get spiritual wings when they sang the song). Also, Alto also called them his "wings" (i.e. his inspiration) in the last episode of the Macross Frontier series.

A lot of Kawamori-san's insights on the movie's storyline was shared in the various interviews on the special features disc of the Macross Frontier Shudista (Shooting Star) Blu Ray box, although these are all in Japanese. I was only able to understand a bit with my rudimentary Nihongo. You can probably find a transcript of these somewhere online.

One thing I've learned from being an Otaku is that the Japanese are romantically tragic. The Movie's ending is very Japanese in this sense. Will Alto and Sheryl ever end up together? In the ending, Ranka says that she is confident that Sheryl will one day be woken up from her sleep (coma) by her prince.

I think both the Mac F Series and Movies were great. The latter is more spiritual in its final theme (something that Kawamori-san also explored in Macross Zero), and thus more complex in its interpretation, IMHO.

That being said, my wife hated the ending of the series and the movies. The former because Alto did not choose between the two girls, and the latter because my wife hates Sheryl. :-P She also felt sorry for Ranka for having lost her real brother Brera in the movies, just as he freed himself from Macross Galaxy's control implant. So yeah, I understand that not everyone can be satisfied with such endings. :-)

[Kelsain]

I'm sure there was a good medical reason. Probably sanitation purposes. Comatose people still sweat and stuff. Clothes'll get dirty and need changing anyways.

I'm sure it had absolutely nothing to do with any voyeuristic tendencies of the hospital staff whatsoever. Nope. Nothin' at all.

Shinji! No!

[Mommar]

I'm sure there was a good medical reason. Probably sanitation purposes. Comatose people still sweat and stuff. Clothes'll get dirty and need changing anyways.

I'm sure it had absolutely nothing to do with any voyeuristic tendencies of the hospital staff whatsoever. Nope. Nothin' at all.

Or those of the readership...

I've always been puzzled by people who feel none of the Macross movies since Plus really hold together. I've always felt DYRL has never made a damn bit of sense unless you already saw SDFM. I would argue, of all the movies, Plus is the odd man out in that it is the ONLY one that makes sense on it's own without a bunch of additional television episodes/manga/etc filling in gaps.

That being said, I think I need to read an explanation of every Macross series from Seto prior to watching. He gleaned far more from Macross 7 than I could ever hope to. It almost makes it passable, if it weren't for the fact that on principle I don't like the concept of the Protodevlin or Basara's character.

[JB0]

I've always felt DYRL has never made a damn bit of sense unless you already saw SDFM.

And here I thought it was just me.

[jenius]

DYRL made sense as a stand alone film. It felt like the first half hour had been edited out but it was easy to infer and not crucial. What were your hang ups?

Edit - yes, it's the 171+.

Edited September 16, 2014 by jenius

[A_Man_and_a_Woman?!]

DYRL made sense as a stand alone film. It felt like the first half hour had been edited out but it was easy to infer and not crucial. What were your hang ups?

Edit - yes, it's the 171+.

Macross was my gateway drug into anime and I'm very protective of it.

That being said, I've tried using DYRL to introduce fringe anime fans, or just friends in general, to Macross/anime and they feel dropped into the middle playing catch-up with the plot and relationship. DYRL is so f*cking pretty to look at as a film, but I really do think you need a little bit of exposure to SDFM to really appreciate it. I think my love for it stems from how deep I was into Macross at the time and it took all of my favorite elements from the TV show and put them into the sweet desert that is the movie.

I haven't seen any of the MF movies yet- my friend is adamant that I see them if only for Ranka's amazing animated choreography. He kind of warned me about the endings and reading this thread doesn't really spoil anything for me, but he did emphasize that the different relationship dynamics are worth seeing in the movies.

If the movies suck, then I'll just ignore them as something that sucked and just continue enjoying the TV series.

P.S.- still recovering from the WTF moment I had with Zero's ending. That is probably the one Macross ending I truly hate so far- without seeing the MF movies yet.

[jenius]

I used my wife as a sample audience. She basically hates anime though she always wants to cosplay, it's weird. Any way, she gave DYRL a 'that wasn't bad' and the MacF a 'you owe me for making me sit through that'. I can understand the feeling that you're hopping into act 2 in DYRL though, but the bridge banter fills you in.

[A_Man_and_a_Woman?!]

I used my wife as a sample audience. She basically hates anime though she always wants to cosplay, it's weird. Any way, she gave DYRL a 'that wasn't bad' and the MacF a 'you owe me for making me sit through that'. I can understand the feeling that you're hopping into act 2 in DYRL though, but the bridge banter fills you in.

Wow. Really? B-b-but Frontier... the music... the Valks... Kyun kyun...

kyun kyun...

[Kyp Durron]

Now that's something that would've made this pill easier to consume. So for further clarification...the visual collection is...cannon yes?

As far as I'm aware it's cannon. And if it's not, screw it, it's cannon in my mind, damn it!