So I watched the 2 frontier movies, no subs, didn't know what'

[Brooklynwolf]

Here's the situation:

I recently got back into collecting Valkyries after a lonnnnng hiatus from the franchise. I wanted to watch the frontier series, but my location (Guangzhou china) prevents me from having access to it with English subs.

I wanted to watch some Valkyrie action and picked up bootleg Blu rays of the 2 movies. I figured I'll just watch the pretty graphics, animation and listen to the music...oh and see valks blowing the **** out of things....

So without subs, naturally, I was lost...then the ending of the 2nd movie happened.

W.T.F...

Can someone please explain to me wtf happened to alto? Was it necessary for him to disappear? Did they At any point in both movies foreshadow that?!? OMG I can't believe I sat through this crap.

My friend warned me that I should just stick to the tv series. Boy...I should've listened. OMG wtf???.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Brooklynwolf

[Keith]

Your post is full of hate and ignorance, so I shall tell you nothing.

[Brooklynwolf]

Your post is full of hate and ignorance, so I shall tell you nothing.

Can you blame me? I told you there were no subs, so I had no idea what was happening.

And there is a reason for my hate filled post. My hate stems from many Anime incessantly having finales with loose ends. I was burned by macross dynamite and countless other anime stories that just decided to "leave the ending up to the viewer".

[frothymug]

My hate stems from many Anime incessantly having finales with loose ends.

I, too, feel your pain. It's probably my #1 complaint about most shows I've watched. The 2nd movie sort of left things open and the fans have to speculate what happened. In the end credits, it's implied that Sheryl recovers and Alto will probably return soon. This comes from Sheryl re-introducing herself in one of the songs to the tune of something like "I'm back!..." Also, when she's lying on the bed in the hospital, you see her earring glimmer. That can be construed as Alto is still alive somewhere in the galaxy.

Yeah, it's a stretch, I know... but I still loved the 2nd movie. Just the ending was kind of weak and lame, but I can live with it.

[Brooklynwolf]

I, too, feel your pain. It's probably my #1 complaint about most shows I've watched. The 2nd movie sort of left things open and the fans have to speculate what happened. In the end credits, it's implied that Sheryl recovers and Alto will probably return soon. This comes from Sheryl re-introducing herself in one of the songs to the tune of something like "I'm back!..." Also, when she's lying on the bed in the hospital, you see her earring glimmer. That can be construed as Alto is still alive somewhere in the galaxy.

Yeah, it's a stretch, I know... but I still loved the 2nd movie. Just the ending was kind of weak and lame, but I can live with it.

It's these kind of tropes that anime and so many other Japanese story tellers always fall back on, thinking they're being clever or creative...it's annoying as f*** IMO.

Thanks for answering me though. But what does alto experience when he was in the palm of that...weird unicron looking like thing? I mean...what events led up to him to all of a sudden decide to disappear? What did he say to the girls?

Also...what is canon? The movies or series??

Sorry for the questions, I'm just frustrated with the ending.

[aceoftherebellion]

I hated that too. Really, it's just Kowamori's favorite trope these days to have a love triangle 'resolve' with the characters disappearing FOREVER. Personally, I try to ignore it. It's like a new-age reinvention of the age old lover's suicide trope, and I always hated that one too.

His lines to the girls is something to the extend of "Ranka, I'm sorry but I can't return your feelings. Sheryl... I- (the rest of the line is cut off by noise/dramatic effect)"

Yeah, it's frustrating.

As far as what's canon- 'yes'.

Another of Kowamori's favorite things is to say that everything is canon and nothing is, that all of the macross series are 'different accounts' of true events through different media/unreliable narrators.

Pretty much that leaves it to the viewer to decide, and try not to think about the differences too much. It's probably the single most frustrating aspect of being a macross fan.

[Kyp Durron]

It's these kind of tropes that anime and so many other Japanese story tellers always fall back on, thinking they're being clever or creative...it's annoying as f*** IMO.

Thanks for answering me though. But what does alto experience when he was in the palm of that...weird unicron looking like thing? I mean...what events led up to him to all of a sudden decide to disappear? What did he say to the girls?

Also...what is canon? The movies or series??

Sorry for the questions, I'm just frustrated with the ending.

As far as I'm concerned the series is cannon, the movies are an alternate reality take, that's also my stance on the original SDFM series and the DYRL movies as well.

[Brooklynwolf]

I hated that too. Really, it's just Kowamori's favorite trope these days to have a love triangle 'resolve' with the characters disappearing FOREVER. Personally, I try to ignore it. It's like a new-age reinvention of the age old lover's suicide trope, and I always hated that one too.

His lines to the girls is something to the extend of "Ranka, I'm sorry but I can't return your feelings. Sheryl... I- (the rest of the line is cut off by noise/dramatic effect)"

Yeah, it's frustrating.

As far as what's canon- 'yes'.

Another of Kowamori's favorite things is to say that everything is canon and nothing is, that all of the macross series are 'different accounts' of true events through different media/unreliable narrators.

Pretty much that leaves it to the viewer to decide, and try not to think about the differences too much. It's probably the single most frustrating aspect of being a macross fan.

Thanks for clearing up what was said...

So basically, him disappearing made no sense what so ever.

This is gonna make me public enemy number 1 here, but I need to get this off my chest. Just remember folks...it's all IMO.

Shoji is a god amongst men. He gave us SDFM, DYRL, M+...his designs, even to this day, are brilliant. His contributions have provided us with many awesome collectibles....

That being said...he needs to go back to film school...or film school in general if he never took any courses. 1st course that is a requirement? Storytelling 101.

He, along with other storytellers of either the same ilk or beyond need to realize that what they do is neither creative nor original. It's crap. I can go and on, ranting about M7 dynamite, but it don't wanna get myself all worked up.

In short, his decision to do things like that is crap. It sucked when it happened in the oh so boring dynamite, and it sucks just as much in frontier the series (I Wikied the ending...idc)...it especially sucks in the movie. I mean, he/they went as far as to NOT resolve the love triangle by making the lead character effin disappear!!! WTF?!

He needs to grow a pair and make a choice...much like he did back in the day with the DYRL, and M+. This constant crap he's doing now just to appease the fanfic writers needs to stop. I dont sit through to the end of a 20+ episodic show just to "imagine" the finale. Its a copout and it's lazy storytelling.

As far as I'm concerned the series is cannon, the movies are an alternate reality take, that's also my stance on the original SDFM series and the DYRL movies as well.

But in that regard, at least DYRL didn't deviate too much from SDFM right? Doesn't the frontier movie go way off track from the series? Edited September 13, 2014 by Brooklynwolf

[skullmilitia]

[aceoftherebellion]

It's probably not to appease fanfic writers, or anything like that. It's more like he's got a really specific ending he's enamored with and keeps writing varients on it. The Frontier films end in almost the exact same way Zero ended, and he's done varients on 'triangle resolves with characters separated forever' in most of his recent series. If anything, it's more like a fetish he keeps indulging. I can't say I'm fond of it, and I definitely prefer when he collaborates with other writers to kind of keep some of his decision making in check.

Of course, storytelling is rarely original, all tales have been told, the simpsons already did it and all that, and honestly that's kind of okay most of the time. It is unfortunate when a story just doesn't have a satisfying ending, though.

That said, yeah, it's something like a meme around here that all discussions end up decaying into ranting about macross 7. It's like Macross World's version of Godwin's law or something.

[Hikuro]

as far as I'm concerned, this is something that should of belonged in the n00b section of the forums.

[sketchley]

I take it that you guys who don't like the open ending of the MF movies also don't like open ended films like "2001"?

Edited September 14, 2014 by sketchley

[skullmilitia]

This thread shouldn't even be here, Guy giving criticism to a movie,

That didn't have an understanding of what was being said in said movie...

[Brooklynwolf]

It's probably not to appease fanfic writers, or anything like that. It's more like he's got a really specific ending he's enamored with and keeps writing varients on it. The Frontier films end in almost the exact same way Zero ended, and he's done varients on 'triangle resolves with characters separated forever' in most of his recent series. If anything, it's more like a fetish he keeps indulging. I can't say I'm fond of it, and I definitely prefer when he collaborates with other writers to kind of keep some of his decision making in check.

Of course, storytelling is rarely original, all tales have been told, the simpsons already did it and all that, and honestly that's kind of okay most of the time. It is unfortunate when a story just doesn't have a satisfying ending, though.

That said, yeah, it's something like a meme around here that all discussions end up decaying into ranting about macross 7. It's like Macross World's version of Godwin's law or something.

Y'know, you're definitely one of the cool ones. I'm glad I can I have an actual discussion here with someone that doesn't blindly accept everything that's given to them. That's what separates fans from the fanboys I guess.

It's fine when a storyteller tries new techniques to shake things up every now and then. Prevents stagnancy.

However, in this case...I agree with everything you said. It's like some kind of itch he has to constantly scratch. There have been so many others that do the same thing and it's really irritating. Every once in a while is cool...but everytime? It loses it's impact IMO. At times It just comes off as pretentious, almost as if the storyteller is thinking "I'm going to change the face of storytelling". I know I'm exaggerating, I just can't help but feel that way. when I am so engaged in a story with running themes, motifs, compelling characters, all headed in a direction that is designed to come full circle then all of a sudden "lulz no"...it's rage inducing.

as far as I'm concerned, this is something that should of belonged in the n00b section of the forums.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't care.

I take it that you guys who don't like the open ending of the MF movies also don't like open ended films like "2001"?

I don't hate all open ended films or shows. I just feel that it has to be done in a certain way that doesn't betray the viewer or flips the bird at them.

This thread shouldn't even be here, Guy giving criticism to a movie,

That didn't have an understanding of what was being said in said movie...

Ok.

[sketchley]

I don't hate all open ended films or shows. I just feel that it has to be done in a certain way that doesn't betray the viewer or flips the bird at them.

In some ways, the ending of the TF movies and Zero are to give the viewer hope that the characters' stories continue (not that the producers have any plans to continue their story). In other ways, the Frontier series resolved some aspects of the Zero ending, and the TF conclusion answered some of the questions that weren't answered in the conclusion of the TV version.

So, no flipping the bird, and no betrayal of the viewer, IMHO.

[Hikuro]

Y'know, you're definitely one of the cool ones. I'm glad I can I have an actual discussion here with someone that doesn't blindly accept everything that's given to them. That's what separates fans from the fanboys I guess.

It's fine when a storyteller tries new techniques to shake things up every now and then. Prevents stagnancy.

However, in this case...I agree with everything you said. It's like some kind of itch he has to constantly scratch. There have been so many others that do the same thing and it's really irritating. Every once in a while is cool...but everytime? It loses it's impact IMO. At times It just comes off as pretentious, almost as if the storyteller is thinking "I'm going to change the face of storytelling". I know I'm exaggerating, I just can't help but feel that way. when I am so engaged in a story with running themes, motifs, compelling characters, all headed in a direction that is designed to come full circle then all of a sudden "lulz no"...it's rage inducing.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't care.

I don't hate all open ended films or shows. I just feel that it has to be done in a certain way that doesn't betray the viewer or flips the bird at them.

Ok.

oh I'm sorry, somewhere I must of asked if you cared. Wait, I didn't.

[Brooklynwolf]

In some ways, the ending of the TF movies and Zero are to give the viewer hope that the characters' stories continue (not that the producers have any plans to continue their story). In other ways, the Frontier series resolved some aspects of the Zero ending, and the TF conclusion answered some of the questions that weren't answered in the conclusion of the TV version.So, no flipping the bird, and no betrayal of the viewer, IMHO.

I can't comment on zero since I haven't seen it. The last subbed series I watched was 7 and it's atrocious OVA. And that was back when anime stores in NYC had those bootleg VHS tapes. As for the recent shows such as zero and frontier...well, the only way to watch them is through torrent. I had a bad experience the last time I torrented, so I'm SOL when it comes to macross.

I have to point out that I've been frustrated with anime for the past few years. So many of them have unresolved endings...particularly with love interests. Like I've mentioned before, it's ok once in a while, but when it happens constantly it grinds my gears. I truly respect those that pick an ending and stick with it. It takes courage to actually give characters you created a resolution. Be it death, love interest or what have you, it's choices that reflect in the real world. You HAVE to make choices. And in fiction/storytelling, there has to be a beginning, middle and end. Sure, some endings create controversy, but at least it's an end to a story.

And you may not feel that some of shoji's choices are a proverbial flip of the bird...well, IMO, if you choose not to continue the story and end things with so many loose threads...to me it's a giant flaming "eff you".

And that is why, to this day, DYRL and M+ (Movie version) are flawless to me. they were well told stories that had a satisfactory conclusion. There was finality.

Then **** started to hit the fan with M7 and it's follow up's "conclusion"...and then you have alto going super Saiyan.

Been away from macross since dynamite, and that is what I come back to.

[Brooklynwolf]

oh I'm sorry, somewhere I must of asked if you cared. Wait, I didn't.

Oh my bad, did i offend you in some way and now you must defend your honor on a message board? Are you really going to do this?

If so...go ahead, because, Once again, I don't give a ****.

If you have nothing of substance to say, you can go back to your "makuros l337 board members only" thread. No one asked you to come in here.

[Hikuro]

Oh my bad, did i offend you in some way and now you must defend your honor on a message board? Are you really going to do this?

If so...go ahead, because, Once again, I don't give a ****.

If you have nothing of substance to say, you can go back to your "makuros l337 board members only" thread. No one asked you to come in here.

Hey, you're the one starting a bogus ass thread to vent your frustrations over a pair of movies you couldn't even watch properly cause you chose to see it without subtitles.

It'd of been proper ettique to of done this

www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=34315 Here or on a topic already specifically relating to the frontier films.

Here's my thing, you're upset over the way the movie ended in a particular format you hate seeing, where you're left to question and wonder what happened to Alto.

Guess what? if you watch the TV series, you're left with a very similar set of questions. So why be upset? This is how a lot of the Macross films are actually done.

DYRL - you know Hikaru chooses Misa, but the two go off on the Megaroad 01 and WHAM! something happened to them and you'll never know.

Zero - Did Shin die? Did he survive? where did he go? Again, we'll never know.

7 - Basara flies off back into space just as Mylene shows up. Did he fly back to the 7th fleet? did he go off to follow the whales? Did he remember to gas up and grab some snacks before he took off? We'll never know.

Plus - Same thing, wtf happened to Dyson and Myung? I mean he's not just gonna get away with what he did with a slap on the wrist or a heroes welcome. He'd be up for some serious jail time or even a firing squad. I don't think Millard could cover his ass.

Frontier TV Series - I won't spoil it, but again, questions are raised.

Let me ask you this, cause I'm not from your area of China you proclaim to be from. Why are there no english subtitled variants available for you? Is it just cause of the country? Or are there internet limitations on what you can look for? While I'm not able to post links to various websites giving fansub treatment to such great franchise lines like Frontier, I would be willing to help you out in private. There are many stream websites and torrents available to download not only the films but the tv series as well so you can have a better idea of what was going on and maybe feel a little less stupid and griping cause you didn't understand what was going on clearly enough.

But as for your last statement, I can come and go to any thread I want, YOU'RE the one who opened it. If you don't like that, don't create a thread.

I, a so called Makuros l337 board member, am at least offering you a chance to not look like a total ass and give you the resources you need to know what's going on in the franchise.

[Renato]

The new official Blu-ray set of the movies are region-free and they have English subtitles. Start by watching those, then you can rant all you like. At the moment, you might as well be saying "THIS SUCKS 'CAUSE IT'S ALL IN JAPANESE!"

Also, I'd like to note that am amused by the irony of such a hate-filled post demanding a proper love story.

[frothymug]

2001 was a great movie... until the ending.

I think these kinds of endings are common in their culture. You don't see too many American movies do that, unless you're JJ Abrams and you think it's okay to keep people wondering wtf is going on and then end the movie with no questions answered and a big middle finger in your face when the credits start to roll.

Try watching the movies again when you can get some good subs. Only then might you be able to see why we all enjoyed the movies to various extents. The series was also a great work. And despite its few flaws, we are all still waiting for more.

[mickyg]

I don't know, call me one who thinks this sort of post should be no problem. We've got someone saying he was drawn in, despite no sub's, and then we get the ending. I thought the point of the original post was, "did I see what I think I saw, or am I missing something?" And I think that is fine and even should be encouraged. I also saw a lot of holding back about HOW frustrated the initial response actually was.

This reads a lot like misunderstanding his original intention in posting this to me. And in my humble opinion, doesn't deserve some of the comments I've read.

This is a great community and getting people engaged in discussion and some healthy debate is good for us! In my opinion, of course.

Back to the point, I really think this is a theme in a lot of works of late. 2001 was brought up, but it's been present in quite a few other movies as well. Inception, anyone? How bout Donnie Darko? That one actually made me mad for a while! But that's kind of the point. A writer can map out a story from beginning to end, or craft it in such a way as to really engage the viewer and let them decide what they take away from it. Maybe its lazy, but I am willing to bet it creates a lot more discussion than tying it up neatly with a bow.

And by the way, for the most part, I do prefer my movies nicely wrapped up. But for the sake of discussion, I totally get why a movie that doesn't follow that recipe is still worth telling.

Obligatory, "to each his own" remark: we really are a community of wildly differing opinions and as far as I'm concerned, that's what makes this place a pleasure to come hang out in.

Carry on...

Edited September 14, 2014 by mickyg

[Brooklynwolf]

Hey, you're the one starting a bogus ass thread to vent your frustrations over a pair of movies you couldn't even watch properly cause you chose to see it without subtitles.

It'd of been proper ettique to of done this

www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=34315 Here or on a topic already specifically relating to the frontier films.

Here's my thing, you're upset over the way the movie ended in a particular format you hate seeing, where you're left to question and wonder what happened to Alto.

Guess what? if you watch the TV series, you're left with a very similar set of questions. So why be upset? This is how a lot of the Macross films are actually done.

DYRL - you know Hikaru chooses Misa, but the two go off on the Megaroad 01 and WHAM! something happened to them and you'll never know.

Zero - Did Shin die? Did he survive? where did he go? Again, we'll never know.

7 - Basara flies off back into space just as Mylene shows up. Did he fly back to the 7th fleet? did he go off to follow the whales? Did he remember to gas up and grab some snacks before he took off? We'll never know.

Plus - Same thing, wtf happened to Dyson and Myung? I mean he's not just gonna get away with what he did with a slap on the wrist or a heroes welcome. He'd be up for some serious jail time or even a firing squad. I don't think Millard could cover his ass.

Frontier TV Series - I won't spoil it, but again, questions are raised.

Let me ask you this, cause I'm not from your area of China you proclaim to be from. Why are there no english subtitled variants available for you? Is it just cause of the country? Or are there internet limitations on what you can look for? While I'm not able to post links to various websites giving fansub treatment to such great franchise lines like Frontier, I would be willing to help you out in private. There are many stream websites and torrents available to download not only the films but the tv series as well so you can have a better idea of what was going on and maybe feel a little less stupid and griping cause you didn't understand what was going on clearly enough.

But as for your last statement, I can come and go to any thread I want, YOU'RE the one who opened it. If you don't like that, don't create a thread.

I, a so called Makuros l337 board member, am at least offering you a chance to not look like a total ass and give you the resources you need to know what's going on in the franchise.

I find it amusing how in one post you're able to be helpful, yet a jerk at the same time. So let me reply with the same attitude.

Bogus ass thread? So you're the one I have to go through to make sure my topics are acceptable here at MW? Hmm, guess I never got the memo. So just because there's already an existing thread about frontier, I'm forbidden to create another one?? Calm down man. If you weren't so arrogant and didn't act like a jerk right off the bat, then I wouldn't have responded the way I did.

And I have every right to be frustrated. Is this another option that's gonna be taken away from me now? I've seen plenty of films without subs and I still walked away satisfied because in the right hands, a story's plot can still be told through visuals alone, messages can still be conveyed. Would it have helped MF's case if there were subs? Maybe, maybe not. from what I've watched, I'm leaning on the latter.

As for your examples:

DYRL- Hikaru chose misa in a story where LOVE played a big part in the movie itself, the movie as a single entity. Did the creators visually show them getting lost?? NO. Therefore, STORY CONCLUDED. THEME RESOLVED

Never saw zero, so I can't comment.

As for plus. Was the whole plot centered around whether isamu is gonna get arrested or not? No. Would it have been nice to tie up that loose end? Sure, but it wasn't overly important when you factor in that the movie ITSELF was about the three main characters accepting truths and finding eachother again. STORY CONCLUDED. THEME RESOLVED

7 and dynamite? I loved 7 at one point, but dynamites lack of a true ending retroactively made 7 bad. And my memory is hazy with that series so I can't comment. But I will say this, the show hinted so many times that Basara and mylene were gonna end up together....then he flies off Into space like a moron. THEME NOT RESOLVED.

Frontier? I don't care about it anymore now that I know it has the same BS unresolved ending.

and finally, I'd like to say thanks for your offer. Hell I'd be willing to back down my aggressive tone...but then you couldn't help yourself and just had to slip in that "feel a little less stupid" bit. So...go to hell?

And here's a tip should you feel so compelled to make an ass outta yourself by entering a thread and making a comment just to get a laugh out of a few board members that share the same post count as yourself....

If there's a thread titled "robotech rules and macross sucks"....you know what I do?

I ignore it.

So if you'd like to continue this conversation like an adult, I'd be more than happy to. Just back it down with the sass. I'm not here to make enemies.

[Brooklynwolf]

The new official Blu-ray set of the movies are region-free and they have English subtitles. Start by watching those, then you can rant all you like. At the moment, you might as well be saying "THIS SUCKS 'CAUSE IT'S ALL IN JAPANESE!"

Also, I'd like to note that am amused by the irony of such a hate-filled post demanding a proper love story.

As I was half way through the 2nd movie, I was browsing through the anime section here and saw a thread about the F movies getting eng subs. I was like holy ship!!

Then I got to the ending....

The love story aspect in the two movies was going in the proper direction!

Then I got to the ending....

2001 was a great movie... until the ending.

I think these kinds of endings are common in their culture. You don't see too many American movies do that, unless you're JJ Abrams and you think it's okay to keep people wondering wtf is going on and then end the movie with no questions answered and a big middle finger in your face when the credits start to roll.

Try watching the movies again when you can get some good subs. Only then might you be able to see why we all enjoyed the movies to various extents. The series was also a great work. And despite its few flaws, we are all still waiting for more.

Dude, don't get me wrong. There were good things from the F movies...like valks... The enemies were strange and dangerous. The music wasn't bad...

Then the ending happened lol.

[Brooklynwolf]

I don't know, call me one who thinks this sort of post should be no problem. We've got someone saying he was drawn in, despite no sub's, and then we get the ending. I thought the point of the original post was, "did I see what I think I saw, or am I missing something?" And I think that is fine and even should be encouraged. I also saw a lot of holding back about HOW frustrated the initial response actually was.

This reads a lot like misunderstanding his original intention in posting this to me. And in my humble opinion, doesn't deserve some of the comments I've read.

This is a great community and getting people engaged in discussion and some healthy debate is good for us! In my opinion, of course.

Back to the point, I really think this is a theme in a lot of works of late. 2001 was brought up, but it's been present in quite a few other movies as well. Inception, anyone? How bout Donnie Darko? That one actually made me mad for a while! But that's kind of the point. A writer can map out a story from beginning to end, or craft it in such a way as to really engage the viewer and let them decide what they take away from it. Maybe its lazy, but I am willing to bet it creates a lot more discussion than tying it up neatly with a bow.

And by the way, for the most part, I do prefer my movies nicely wrapped up. But for the sake of discussion, I totally get why a movie that doesn't follow that recipe is still worth telling.

Obligatory, "to each his own" remark: we really are a community of wildly differing opinions and as far as I'm concerned, that's what makes this place a pleasure to come hang out in.

Carry on...

Wow...that was so...wow. Thank you man. I'm happy you, and a few others were able to pick up on what I was trying to get across. I really appreciate it.

Its like some of these people just read up to a point where I said the word "sucked" and then proceeded to get nasty with me.

Let's be honest here...due to the BS HG does, the macross community is, for all intents and purposes, really small. You can find countless websites to discuss all things related to SW, ST, gundam, anything marvel or DC related. in the real world, I have only ONE friend out of dozens to talk with about macross. It's tough. He got me back into the swing of things, and in spite of the F movies having no subs, I was genuinely excited to watch them. I went for years with no Valkyrie action! So I come away severely disappointed and wanted to find a place to vent and see if others felt the same way.

Thanks to you and a few others, I'm able to have a great discussion about it and see if I was indeed "missing something".

I don't hate all unresolved endings. It has to be done tastefully. Done in a way where it's actually fun to discuss, debate, or even argue because it helps develop our creativity and or reveal other interesting and creative ways of viewing the subject matter.

IMO, from dynamite and on...it just feels tacked on for the sake of being tacked on. And the only thing to come out of it are countless fanfics or doujins. There was nothing fun to discuss about "oh I think Basara would come back and choose her" or "alto goes here and then boom goes there"....

[Seto Kaiba]

I find it amusing how in one post you're able to be helpful, yet a jerk at the same time. So let me reply with the same attitude.

To be entirely frank and fair, it'd be hard to say that you've actually watched the movies because you didn't watch them in a format where you could understand what's going on... so a lot of people are going to think that your complaints are unreasonable on those grounds. As far as where this should've been posted... yeah, it really should've gone into the Newbie Questions thread or into one of the threads about the movies, but that's for the mods to fix at their discretion. Getting hostile just ensures that the mods will just close the thread instead of merging it.

My advice, take a step back and a few deep breaths... then seek ye out a copy of the wholly legitimate English subtitled release of the films on Blu-Ray. IMO, well worth it.

And I have every right to be frustrated. Is this another option that's gonna be taken away from me now? I've seen plenty of films without subs and I still walked away satisfied because in the right hands, a story's plot can still be told through visuals alone, messages can still be conveyed. Would it have helped MF's case if there were subs? Maybe, maybe not. from what I've watched, I'm leaning on the latter.

Eh... if you're not going to watch the movies in a format you can understand, you're going to miss things. Important things. In what is essentially a character-driven drama rather than a mecha-action series, you're going to miss a LOT of important things. What you ought to be frustrated over is not having had a subtitled version on hand when you watched it, because you'd be a lot less confused and upset if you'd gotten the whole story.

DYRL- Hikaru chose misa in a story where LOVE played a big part in the movie itself, the movie as a single entity. Did the creators visually show them getting lost?? NO. Therefore, STORY CONCLUDED. THEME RESOLVED

Never saw zero, so I can't comment.

As for plus. Was the whole plot centered around whether isamu is gonna get arrested or not? No. Would it have been nice to tie up that loose end? Sure, but it wasn't overly important when you factor in that the movie ITSELF was about the three main characters accepting truths and finding eachother again. STORY CONCLUDED. THEME RESOLVED

7 and dynamite? I loved 7 at one point, but dynamites lack of a true ending retroactively made 7 bad. And my memory is hazy with that series so I can't comment. But I will say this, the show hinted so many times that Basara and mylene were gonna end up together....then he flies off Into space like a moron. THEME NOT RESOLVED.

Frontier? I don't care about it anymore now that I know it has the same BS unresolved ending.

I don't mean to be snide when I say this, but if you find shows that leave some loose ends or unresolved details in their stories, you will likely find a lot of anime to be unwatchable and frustrating. A lot of shows don't believe in trying to tie up every loose end at the end like an obsessive-compulsive in a shoelace factory. Happily-ever-after endings are kind of a cheap cop-out as writing goes... a story with complex characters tends not to have an ending so neat and self-contained if you're preserving the illusion that these are real people with lives of their own.

It's never bothered me, so I've never had issues with the ending of the Frontier movies. Many Macross fans find the post-FB2012 "they disappeared" ending for Misa and Hikaru's story frustrating, because they're beloved characters. Zero, somewhat less so... "their story is over and they sailed off into the (metaphorical) sunset" is something Kawamori likes to do. It is, however, not really THAT pervasive in his work... and answers to these questions often exist in other sources.

As far as Basara and Mylene go in Macross 7, it's hard to call it a love triangle when Basara barely acknowledges that Mylene is an entity distinct from the furniture. It's less a love triangle and more a polyhedron of one-sided infatuations. So Gamlin's into Mylene, Mylene's into Basara, Rex is into Basara, Basara's into Sivil (maybe) and his music (definitely), Gigil's into Sivil. Basara doesn't up and leave a love interest, he was never really presented as interested in Mylene at all beyond her talent as a musician... and leaves after he feels she's finally come into her own as a performer. Then he goes and spends a few episodes on Zola acting like a tit.

Frontier is kind of the same boat... the movies actually do a better job depicting the romance between Alto and the girls, and is far more into the motivations of the individual characters. At the end of the series, Alto's still more into his plane than the girls (kinda the Basara ailment) but comes to the realization that protecting them is a motivation just as good (if not better) than flying for its own sake... and the three are free to pursue their relationships further without a war in the way. It's not an obsessively knotted-up ending but it holds water. In the movies, the characters motivations get more emphasis, so Alto actually does come to a decision at exactly the wrong time and ends up being rescued from imminent heavy quantum annihilation by the Vajra he'd just successfully established the beginnings of a mutual understanding with. It makes reasonable sense even if it's not wholly satisfying in terms of the sort of happily-ever-after romantic ending Disney has conditioned us to expect, and concludes the story reasonably enough with the beginnings of a friendly dialogue between humanity and the Vajra.

[Brooklynwolf]

To be entirely frank and fair, it'd be hard to say that you've actually watched the movies because you didn't watch them in a format where you could understand what's going on... so a lot of people are going to think that your complaints are unreasonable on those grounds. As far as where this should've been posted... yeah, it really should've gone into the Newbie Questions thread or into one of the threads about the movies, but that's for the mods to fix at their discretion. Getting hostile just ensures that the mods will just close the thread instead of merging it.

My advice, take a step back and a few deep breaths... then seek ye out a copy of the wholly legitimate English subtitled release of the films on Blu-Ray. IMO, well worth it.

Eh... if you're not going to watch the movies in a format you can understand, you're going to miss things. Important things. In what is essentially a character-driven drama rather than a mecha-action series, you're going to miss a LOT of important things. What you ought to be frustrated over is not having had a subtitled version on hand when you watched it, because you'd be a lot less confused and upset if you'd gotten the whole story.

I don't mean to be snide when I say this, but if you find shows that leave some loose ends or unresolved details in their stories, you will likely find a lot of anime to be unwatchable and frustrating. A lot of shows don't believe in trying to tie up every loose end at the end like an obsessive-compulsive in a shoelace factory. Happily-ever-after endings are kind of a cheap cop-out as writing goes... a story with complex characters tends not to have an ending so neat and self-contained if you're preserving the illusion that these are real people with lives of their own.

It's never bothered me, so I've never had issues with the ending of the Frontier movies. Many Macross fans find the post-FB2012 "they disappeared" ending for Misa and Hikaru's story frustrating, because they're beloved characters. Zero, somewhat less so... "their story is over and they sailed off into the (metaphorical) sunset" is something Kawamori likes to do. It is, however, not really THAT pervasive in his work... and answers to these questions often exist in other sources.

As far as Basara and Mylene go in Macross 7, it's hard to call it a love triangle when Basara barely acknowledges that Mylene is an entity distinct from the furniture. It's less a love triangle and more a polyhedron of one-sided infatuations. So Gamlin's into Mylene, Mylene's into Basara, Rex is into Basara, Basara's into Sivil (maybe) and his music (definitely), Gigil's into Sivil. Basara doesn't up and leave a love interest, he was never really presented as interested in Mylene at all beyond her talent as a musician... and leaves after he feels she's finally come into her own as a performer. Then he goes and spends a few episodes on Zola acting like a tit.

Frontier is kind of the same boat... the movies actually do a better job depicting the romance between Alto and the girls, and is far more into the motivations of the individual characters. At the end of the series, Alto's still more into his plane than the girls (kinda the Basara ailment) but comes to the realization that protecting them is a motivation just as good (if not better) than flying for its own sake... and the three are free to pursue their relationships further without a war in the way. It's not an obsessively knotted-up ending but it holds water. In the movies, the characters motivations get more emphasis, so Alto actually does come to a decision at exactly the wrong time and ends up being rescued from imminent heavy quantum annihilation by the Vajra he'd just successfully established the beginnings of a mutual understanding with. It makes reasonable sense even if it's not wholly satisfying in terms of the sort of happily-ever-after romantic ending Disney has conditioned us to expect, and concludes the story reasonably enough with the beginnings of a friendly dialogue between humanity and the Vajra.

Dude...this was all I asked for. A coherent reply to help explain what I missed in the frontier movies. Instead I got someone that posted max face palming and another implying I'm a noob (which I am, but it's still kind of insulting).

I'd love to reply to this, but I have to leave for work (English tutor in china).

But thank you for this reply. No sass, no snarkiness. Just straight up old fashioned "dude, this is what happened..."

Edit- I do want to add this:

There's no reason for people that found my complaints unreasonable to be rude. You and a few others Im actually having a conversation with seem to have no problem understanding where I'm coming from and reply with respect and self control.

Ok gotta run.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Brooklynwolf

[Seto Kaiba]

Dude...this was all I asked for. A coherent reply to help explain what I missed in the frontier movies. Instead I got someone that posted max face palming and another implying I'm a noob (which I am, but it's still kind of insulting).

I'd love to reply to this, but I have to leave for work (English tutor in china).

But thank you for this reply. No sass, no snarkiness. Just straight up old fashioned "dude, this is what happened..."

No worries, reply to it at your leisure. I keep weird-as-hell hours anyway.

Macross is kind of a frustrating series sometimes if you don't have a grasp of Japanese... there's a lot of stuff out there that offers additional detail and even answers to some of these kinds of questions, but it's all in Japanese, which locks most western fans out but for the services of fan translators like sketchley (or myself, though I'm not nearly as proficient or prolific). With so much stuff out there to cover, non-Japanese-speaking fans and non-native Japanese speakers can sometimes end up missing out on a LOT, with a rate of releases that occasionally reaches "firehose-aimed-at-a-teacup" levels... to say nothing of the indifferent levels of quality and accuracy we get from fansubs sometimes.

Like they say, "It's all there in the manual"... problem is, the manual's 2,560 pages long and written in a foreign language.

[jenius]

To be fair, knowing what's being said doesn't make these movies that much better. They're pretty but otherwise kinda awful.

[Brooklynwolf]

To be entirely frank and fair, it'd be hard to say that you've actually watched the movies because you didn't watch them in a format where you could understand what's going on... so a lot of people are going to think that your complaints are unreasonable on those grounds. As far as where this should've been posted... yeah, it really should've gone into the Newbie Questions thread or into one of the threads about the movies, but that's for the mods to fix at their discretion. Getting hostile just ensures that the mods will just close the thread instead of merging it.

My advice, take a step back and a few deep breaths... then seek ye out a copy of the wholly legitimate English subtitled release of the films on Blu-Ray. IMO, well worth it.

Ok,I'm back.

To be fair, I was only returning the hostility. Being a new guy doesn't mean I'm a punching bag. Your advice is noted. I have to think about whether I want to sit through it again however.

Eh... if you're not going to watch the movies in a format you can understand, you're going to miss things. Important things. In what is essentially a character-driven drama rather than a mecha-action series, you're going to miss a LOT of important things. What you ought to be frustrated over is not having had a subtitled version on hand when you watched it, because you'd be a lot less confused and upset if you'd gotten the whole story.

I don't often seek out movies or tv shows that don't have subs. Which is why I skipped over the frontier series. The Bootleg BDs here don't have eng subs. So my choices were extremely limited. Over 20 episodes and no subs VS a 2 hr movie and no subs...and all i wanted to do was watch some awesomely designed mechs ducking it out and hopefully listen to some great music.

I've mentioned before that in the right hands, a foreign movie can be understood through visuals, tone and music alone.

I don't mean to be snide when I say this, but if you find shows that leave some loose ends or unresolved details in their stories, you will likely find a lot of anime to be unwatchable and frustrating. A lot of shows don't believe in trying to tie up every loose end at the end like an obsessive-compulsive in a shoelace factory. Happily-ever-after endings are kind of a cheap cop-out as writing goes... a story with complex characters tends not to have an ending so neat and self-contained if you're preserving the illusion that these are real people with lives of their own.

Yes, you nailed it. If i hadn't made it clear enough, I am getting jaded when it comes down to anime/manga. Over the years as I get older, my time spent watching/reading anime/manga is lessened each year. Sure the character designs are cool, engaging plots, exciting animation...but their endings always leave a lot to be desired. In many aspects in life, it's necessary to find closure. In fiction, you fall in love with these characters, follow them on a journey to seek out whatever it is they are looking for. You wish for them to fulfill their desires BECAUSE that fulfills your desire to watch them succeed, to grow. And when the hero doesn't get what he wants, it has to be within the context of the movie/show. You can't just haphazardly throw in an ending that doesn't jive with the rest of the movie because "I felt like it". There has to be meaning behind it. Like a slapstick comedy that ends on a somber note with the horrific death of the main character. Yeah, it's shocking, it's different, but does it make it good? IMO, not so much. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

That being said...I agree that happily ever after endings are a cop out as well. And that's why, IMO, There's a healthy mix of happily ever after, bittersweet, depressing and uplifting endings in many English speaking shows and movies. It's not happy ever after WITH EVERY show. There's variety.

There was a time when just about EVERY Korean drama had a depressing as **** ending. It was like...wth? Are they trying to one up one another? It got tiring really fast and became a joke unto itself.

It's like...a series of movies where they ALWAYS end things on Xmas. Sure, it's festive, happy and joyful. But...everytime??

Again...I don't hate all ambiguous endings. It just needs to be done right. And not as frequent. When it's not done properly, it's like eating the most delicious dinner you've ever had, only to end the night with a stale cookie as dessert.

It's never bothered me, so I've never had issues with the ending of the Frontier movies. Many Macross fans find the post-FB2012 "they disappeared" ending for Misa and Hikaru's story frustrating, because they're beloved characters. Zero, somewhat less so... "their story is over and they sailed off into the (metaphorical) sunset" is something Kawamori likes to do. It is, however, not really THAT pervasive in his work... and answers to these questions often exist in other sources.

As far as Basara and Mylene go in Macross 7, it's hard to call it a love triangle when Basara barely acknowledges that Mylene is an entity distinct from the furniture. It's less a love triangle and more a polyhedron of one-sided infatuations. So Gamlin's into Mylene, Mylene's into Basara, Rex is into Basara, Basara's into Sivil (maybe) and his music (definitely), Gigil's into Sivil. Basara doesn't up and leave a love interest, he was never really presented as interested in Mylene at all beyond her talent as a musician... and leaves after he feels she's finally come into her own as a performer. Then he goes and spends a few episodes on Zola acting like a tit.

Frontier is kind of the same boat... the movies actually do a better job depicting the romance between Alto and the girls, and is far more into the motivations of the individual characters. At the end of the series, Alto's still more into his plane than the girls (kinda the Basara ailment) but comes to the realization that protecting them is a motivation just as good (if not better) than flying for its own sake... and the three are free to pursue their relationships further without a war in the way. It's not an obsessively knotted-up ending but it holds water. In the movies, the characters motivations get more emphasis, so Alto actually does come to a decision at exactly the wrong time and ends up being rescued from imminent heavy quantum annihilation by the Vajra he'd just successfully established the beginnings of a mutual understanding with. It makes reasonable sense even if it's not wholly satisfying in terms of the sort of happily-ever-after romantic ending Disney has conditioned us to expect, and concludes the story reasonably enough with the beginnings of a friendly dialogue between humanity and the Vajra.

With macross 7...I was fine with that ending.

Then dynamite happened. To me it felt as if they were developing Basara's relationship with mylene over the course of the show. It's happened before where the unassuming hero realizes at the pivotal moment that "OMG...I DO love her". Did I honestly want to see him run to her and hug it out on a beach? Eff no. That would've been outta character. But the way she chased after him at the end of dynamite so she can tell him how she feels, only for him pat her on the head and...fly off?? That's the payoff? After sitting through more than 20 episodes of silent looks, shy glances, close calls...then having to wait for the OVA, where they were basically separated from eachother throughout the entirety of the show thinking their reunion is gonna be epic, to be released...and that's the payoff?

...I'm gonna put that finale in the "I don't know how to end this so eff you fans" bin over there.

No worries, reply to it at your leisure. I keep weird-as-hell hours anyway.

Macross is kind of a frustrating series sometimes if you don't have a grasp of Japanese... there's a lot of stuff out there that offers additional detail and even answers to some of these kinds of questions, but it's all in Japanese, which locks most western fans out but for the services of fan translators like sketchley (or myself, though I'm not nearly as proficient or prolific). With so much stuff out there to cover, non-Japanese-speaking fans and non-native Japanese speakers can sometimes end up missing out on a LOT, with a rate of releases that occasionally reaches "firehose-aimed-at-a-teacup" levels... to say nothing of the indifferent levels of quality and accuracy we get from fansubs sometimes.

Like they say, "It's all there in the manual"... problem is, the manual's 2,560 pages long and written in a foreign language.

Lol man that really bugs me. So many pieces of fiction are like that. SW, LOTR, ST, Street fighter. At the same time, i guess there is a bit of excitement to searching and digging for information that's not immediately given to you. Like there's a sort of privilege to all of that. On the other hand, non Japanese speakers are SOL and would have to rely on people such as yourself and my friend who was the one that told me about Hikaru and crew getting lost in the galaxy.

I like my fiction to be a bit more simplified. What's there is there. No need to "get more of the action in the prequel comic book or going online to their website to find out what REALLY happened to so and so!!"

To be fair, knowing what's being said doesn't make these movies that much better. They're pretty but otherwise kinda awful.

Lol my friend warned me with the same exact thing.

[aceoftherebellion]

Y'know, you're definitely one of the cool ones. I'm glad I can I have an actual discussion here with someone that doesn't blindly accept everything that's given to them. That's what separates fans from the fanboys I guess.

It's fine when a storyteller tries new techniques to shake things up every now and then. Prevents stagnancy.

However, in this case...I agree with everything you said. It's like some kind of itch he has to constantly scratch. There have been so many others that do the same thing and it's really irritating. Every once in a while is cool...but everytime? It loses it's impact IMO. At times It just comes off as pretentious, almost as if the storyteller is thinking "I'm going to change the face of storytelling". I know I'm exaggerating, I just can't help but feel that way. when I am so engaged in a story with running themes, motifs, compelling characters, all headed in a direction that is designed to come full circle then all of a sudden "lulz no"...it's rage inducing.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't care.

I don't hate all open ended films or shows. I just feel that it has to be done in a certain way that doesn't betray the viewer or flips the bird at them.

Ok.

Haha, thanks!

I kind of feel the same way, yeah. I love Macross and I enjoy a lot of his work, but yeah, Kowamori does come off as pretentious a lot of the time, and it does generally rub me the wrong way. I ignore it because I love the franchise.

All that said, I'm also going to echo Jenius- frankly, the Frontier films just weren't that great to me in the first place, that ending or not. Too much accelerated plot, too little development, too much of what made the TV series great just kind of dropped. They're very pretty films, and fun to mindlessly look at, but I didn't think they were very good. Personal opinion, no offense to anybody who liked them. The ending was just the last nail in a coffin.

[Brooklynwolf]

Haha, thanks!

I kind of feel the same way, yeah. I love Macross and I enjoy a lot of his work, but yeah, Kowamori does come off as pretentious a lot of the time, and it does generally rub me the wrong way. I ignore it because I love the franchise.

All that said, I'm also going to echo Jenius- frankly, the Frontier films just weren't that great to me in the first place, that ending or not. Too much accelerated plot, too little development, too much of what made the TV series great just kind of dropped. They're very pretty films, and fun to mindlessly look at, but I didn't think they were very good. Personal opinion, no offense to anybody who liked them. The ending was just the last nail in a coffin.

I'm gonna go ahead and say this....

It was pretty to look at...when the camera and cuts didn't go all coke-head on your eyes. It was too fast and messy to follow. Macross plus was, no, IS the pinnacle of hand drawn dog fights. People should go watch it again. Tell me that isnt poetry in motion??

I was hoping for the director to slow down the fights and let our eyes drink in the imagery....but nope, no time to breathe, gotta show how fast these valks go. There was a method to the camera angles, the wide shots, tight shots, and overall language to how things were framed with plus and DYRL. There were So many instances in frontier where I said out loud "wth? Dammit, get Hikaru, Roy, max, and isamu in there! They'll show these guys how do it!"

Edited September 14, 2014 by Brooklynwolf

[JB0]

I just wanted to say I thought Dynamite 7 was one of the best parts of Macross 7, and a genuinely fun OVA.

The love trinagle remains as resolved as it ever was. Gamlin loves Mylene, Mylene loves Basara, Basara loves music, and the whole dang bridge crew loves Max... err, except Exedol. None of these loves are requited.

[skullmilitia]

The Macross Frontier movies actually gave you a conclusion, for the first time since DYRL.

Alto chose Sherly. Alto folded with the Vajra
We know what happened.. so why is this frustrating?

The TV series had an ending that was worse, where

both Ranka and Sheryl choose Alto, and Alto chose flying.

MF was a much better Series overall, than the movies.

The series became week when Grace became the main antagonist. If you

switched the series ending, with the Movie taking over, it would have been

a perfect ending. Basically when Grace takes over the plot, if you switched that

to the group using Grace, and switched to the last 25 minutes or so of SNT.

You might have had a single solid show. However if you haven't watched the series

in Full, you're missing out on really the greatness of MF.

My first point still remains valid, you can't judge a show where you essentially watched it

in Mute.

[Sandman]

I'm gonna go ahead and say this....

It was pretty to look at...when the camera and cuts didn't go all coke-head on your eyes. It was too fast and messy to follow. Macross plus was, no, IS the pinnacle of hand drawn dog fights. People should go watch it again. Tell me that isnt poetry in motion??

I was hoping for the director to slow down the fights and let our eyes drink in the imagery....but nope, no time to breathe, gotta show how fast these valks go. There was a method to the camera angles, the wide shots, tight shots, and overall language to how things were framed with plus and DYRL. There were So many instances in frontier where I said out loud "wth? Dammit, get Hikaru, Roy, max, and isamu in there! They'll show these guys how do it!"

I actually found this to be the trend with early 90s mecha shows starting with Macross 2. They would speed up the action scenes so you couldnt tell what was going on unless you freeze framed through the scene. I remember when i first watched Mac 2, i was frustrated that i couldnt get a clear look at the new valkyrie.