Painting with a brush question

[vsim]

Hey guys,

I'm finally getting back to my old Hasegawa VF-0B kit that has been languishing on my desk for a few years. I starting seeing all of the awesome kits that people have been turning out on these forums and I have a question about painting. Note that I am a complete newbie to modeling building and have only ever finished a few kits in my life. I have watched a bunch of you tube videos and picked up a lot of tips so this will hopefully come out much better than past kits.

My question is, how do I get a nice flat coat of paint with a brush? I have certain areas where I just don't want to whip out the airbrush and deal with that for small areas that need to be painted before I put the big pieces together. Part of the problem being that I am painting white! I am using Mr Color paints (laquer based?). I cleaned and primed everything before painting already (Mr Surfacer). I tried thinning out the paint some, but it always seems to be either so thin that you can see through it easily, or so thick that the paint does not flatten out.

I have Mr Color Thinner, Leveling Thinner, and Retarder on hand. What is the retarder for by the way? I bought it a while back and now I forget why .

Thanks for the help!

Edited August 31, 2014 by vsim

[mickyg]

Sounds like you're on the right track as far as supplies go. Mr color is gunze's line of lacquer solvent based paints but are still technically, acrylic paints. They also have "Mr hobby aqueous" which are more of a water/alcohol based paint. Its confusing but you can actually use the lacquer based thinners, which you have, for both types of paints.

The Mr color thinner will thin the paints you have, but given its a lacquer thinner, it'll probably dry very quickly. The Mr levelling thinner contains a retarder, to slow the drying time down. The retarder you have is meant to neither thin, nor thicken the paint, but just slow down the drying time. It's likely what's in the levelling thinner, already.

Now that you know what they're supposed to do, my advice is to experiment a bit, but probably stick to the levelling thinner and retarder. White is notoriously difficult to get right, so expect to play with ratios a bit. That said, retarder is meant to help get rid of brush strokes and "level out" the paint as it dries. I don't know how much to recommend using as a ratio as its tricky stuff. Too much and the paint won't dry at all. I've got some acrylic retarder and it advises no more than 1 part retarder to 10 parts paint.

Hope that's of some help to you. You'll likely get some other comments that will also point you in the right direction.

Edited August 31, 2014 by mickyg

[David Hingtgen]

Really basic:

1. Load brush only half-way with paint. (as in, you should have the space between the middle of the bristles and the handle still bare)

2. Single stroke per coat wherever possible. "going back over" while starting to dry is often the worst possible thing. Acrylics are the least forgiving in this regard, enamel/lacquer actually gives you more than a 5-second window.

3. Retarder! Load up on the stuff. (again, more critical for acrylics)

4. Thin coats do self-level better.

[derex3592]

Simple answer.....DONT use acrylics for brush painting. It just doesn't work. Brush paint with enamels and never look back.

[CrazyDude]

Agree with derex3592.

Also hit an Arts Supply store for your brushes, I prefer to use Horse hair, red sable or Japanese calligraphy brushes.

White, Red and Yellow tend to cover poorly and multiple thin coats are needed.

Change the direction of the brush strokes for each layer.

And if course let it fully cure not just dry between layers.

[derex3592]

Good tips there as well CrazyDude.

[milhouse]

Retarder (retard) means "slow" essentially, so it is to slow down the drying time which in turn helps level out the paint.

Vallejo paints are very very good acrylic paints for hand brushing. Ever since I discovered them I've done all my model painting with them (no more enamel fumes to sniff, and i don't need to invest in an airbrush to use acrylics -- tamiya paints are best suited for the airbrush). The awesome thing about them is they thin with plain ol' water, can be cleaned with soapy water, and come in neat eye dripper type bottles so you can plop out as little or as much paint as you need!

[David Hingtgen]

I've seen many people rave about Vallejo, but from the few times I tried them, I found them "strange". I wonder if I'm doing something wrong.

[chyll2]

I've seen many people rave about Vallejo, but from the few times I tried them, I found them "strange". I wonder if I'm doing something wrong.

what "strange"-ness did you encounter? I tried vallejo before when I tried to do brush painting a whole kit. It worked good for the most part it is just that I don't have the patience needed for brush painting (multiple thin coats to get solid color) so I went back to Spray cans.

Edited September 1, 2014 by chyll2

[vsim]

Thanks for the info guys. I'll try messing with the retarder some.

Now with the white, should I expect it to take multiple coats, even if I get the ratios right? Or should there be a way to get a nice flat coat that completely covers in one coat with white?

[chyll2]

Thanks for the info guys. I'll try messing with the retarder some.

Now with the white, should I expect it to take multiple coats, even if I get the ratios right? Or should there be a way to get a nice flat coat that completely covers in one coat with white?

as crazydude posted above, White, yellow and red are hard colors to use.

I only have experience using white, but never expect to get a solid white color with one coat/stroke. Expect to get good coverage (no color bleeding) after 3 or more coats.

Of course you can may get it after 1 or 2 coats but that will usually mean a much more thicker paint which is bad for brush painting since it will make the brush stroke more visible.

[derex3592]

White is terrible to have to paint with a brush no matter what you do in my experience. Have you tried Tamiya spray can white? They are very good.

[GU-11]

The only thing I can add to this is, DO NOT use Tamiya acrylics with a paint brush, especially gloss. They're formulated for airbrushing and the second coat will lift the underlying coat, unless you thin it with something containing surfactants like window cleaner.

And I'll re-re-confirm crazydude's statement about red. white and yellow being a nightmare to paint--especially glossy finishes. Even with an airbrush (or maybe especially with an airbrush), you have to hit that sweet spot between too thick and too thin, and AB at a distance between too close and too far, in order to get a nice glossy finish. I can't imagine it being any easier with a paint brush.

[milhouse]

Don't forget... orange too is a terrible color to have to paint (cos, ya know, it's a mixture of yellow and red)... I hate painting yellow and orange!

A little more on Vallejo and brushes:

As for the "strangeness" of vallejo... to me it was easy to use as I do paintings (on canvas or paper) in watercolor, acrylics and oils; vallejo style acrylic is just another medium to get use too, and to me it handles closer to watercolor than acrylic. So, use good watercolor brushes -- I suggest a #2, #4 Round watercolor paintbrush for details (for fine details use smaller round brushes), and a watercolor glaze/wash brush that is big enough for your painting needs to cover big spaces on a model in the sam color.

[vsim]

I've done some more experimenting and it seems to me that the mix I use for the airbrush that seemed to work okay did not work so well for the brush (too thin). For the brush, a good amount of retarder seemed to help, but, as expected, white is still quite difficult to paint with the brush. But it's starting to look a little better. I'll just have to keep trying and learning and get better as I do more of these kits .

[Vifam7]

With whites and yellows, sometimes what I do is lightly rough up the surface with sandpaper.

[ultimateone]

Bunch of great tips in here.

[edstuff]

Hmmmm I'm a newbie to painting to but my advice is pretty much opposite everyone else's. I use either testor's acrylic or model master paints.

Sometimes what I do is wet the paint brush with water, dry it a lil bit on a blue shop towel and then paint. You have to do several coats with certain colors but it leaves no brush marks. Silver for one takes 7 coats. But this is just my way.

[vsim]

Well, since I managed to screw up the nose of my VF-0B, so I ordered a VF-0D from HLJ so that I can use the parts from it. At least I learned to be very careful using thinner to remove a bad paint job, because it removes the plastic as well as paint. I plan to try to recover the part and fix the panel lines, etc. but not for the 0B.

Maybe my 0D can be my first attempt at experimenting with battle damage . Anyone have any suggestions for damage to the nose section that doesn't look overly done? Or pictures would be awesome!

Edited September 19, 2014 by vsim

[edstuff]

Well, since I managed to screw up the nose of my VF-0B, so I ordered a VF-0D from HLJ so that I can use the parts from it. At least I learned to be very careful using thinner to remove a bad paint job, because it removes the plastic as well as paint. I plan to try to recover the part and fix the panel lines, etc. but not for the 0B.

Maybe my 0D can be my first attempt at experimenting with battle damage . Anyone have any suggestions for damage to the nose section that doesn't look overly done? Or pictures would be awesome!

Aah Calvin & Hobbes, nostalgia. But anyway, do you know how to sculpt? Would it be possible to repair the damage with a little sculpting?

Edited September 19, 2014 by edstuff

[vsim]

Aah Calvin & Hobbes, nostalgia. But anyway, do you know how to sculpt? Would it be possible to repair the damage with a little sculpting?

No, I do not know how to sculpt, but I plan to try . I'm sure it can be repaired and I plan to try. Any tips?

[edstuff]

well the stuff I prefer to use is called aves apoxie sculpt. I usually get it on ebay. How bad is the damage though? If it's a super thin layer of damage then sculpting may not be the way to go now that I think of it. But when I sculpt anything I usually keep a small cup of water for my fingertips. It really helps keep your sculpt smooth.

[vsim]

well the stuff I prefer to use is called aves apoxie sculpt. I usually get it on ebay. How bad is the damage though? If it's a super thin layer of damage then sculpting may not be the way to go now that I think of it. But when I sculpt anything I usually keep a small cup of water for my fingertips. It really helps keep your sculpt smooth.

It's probably not that serious. I have a few areas that will need to be built back up, but the primary issue is just the panel lines are all gone.

[edstuff]

OK. Maybe just repainting could actually cover it up too then.

[Jefuemon]

It's probably not that serious. I have a few areas that will need to be built back up, but the primary issue is just the panel lines are all gone.

If it's just missing panel lines, then get yourself a scribing tool and etch them back. I'm always losing line detail due to putty/sanding, and I've got something that looks like a dental pick to put them back when I'm finished.

Also, I can help you get Hasegawa parts, instead of springing for a whole new kit.

[vsim]

If it's just missing panel lines, then get yourself a scribing tool and etch them back. I'm always losing line detail due to putty/sanding, and I've got something that looks like a dental pick to put them back when I'm finished.

Also, I can help you get Hasegawa parts, instead of springing for a whole new kit.

I'll remember that next time, thanks for the link to the thread! I've got some scribing tools on order, so it will be my first experiment with that kind of thing . At least if I mess up, I can just fill it over, sand and try again . I think I have some dental pick style tools lying around somewhere. I guess those would be good for the little panel fastener dots maybe?

I'm going to find some time to practice airbrushing and brush painting so I don't have these issues again I hope. I also joined the local modelers club, so I should get some tips there too.

Thanks guys!