To support Third Party or not to support.....that is the question

[Tober]

But what would it mean to Arcadia and Bandai? Could you imagine what would happen to them if a U3P created replacement ankles joints or non-exploding shoulders..!? How would they charge us for a renewal/version 2/fixed product a few years down the line?

More seriously, I'm curious to know how well received U3P product is in Japan. That's where the greater market would potentially be.

[David Hingtgen]

Bandai is first party when it comes to Frontier, or nearly so.

[matic]

Expensive hobby. Also not a fan of applying stickers.

[dodiano]

I would love a company that could make a VF-2SS 1/60... Well just a dream I guess!

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

the new hg thread. 1-3 party terminology. where are the terminology purists?

i'm first party except custom parts... it's a slippery slope but i caution venture into mass produced 3p stuff as it may hurt macross toys which may hurt my hobby. you don't know how long i finally waited to get my hands on a vf-1 toy. and finally did years later when yamato came out. with the vf-1 if 3p puts 1st party in jeopardy i'm against it.

for the valks arcadia will never come out with... i guess it's really hard choice as fans want stuff that's not released... but the long terms effects of 3p picking up steam eventually leads into KO territory. or making 3p versions directly competing with 1st party versions. that i don't want to see. espeically since Macross has such a small fanbase. there only so much money to go around.

i don't want to see a KO vf-19a ravens paint scheme bc arcadia didn't release it nor do i want to see a KO vf-4 flashback. i think that will cut into first party profits

Look at it from a realistic perspective:

If yamato were a knock off company (I'm not saying they are) and Bandai were the official license holder.

If yamato was willing to take a risk on stuff like making a Konig Monster, would Bandai have ever considered doing their version of it? I don't think so. The guys who make toys that are not popular are great tests to see what people want and this can benefit the companies who have licenses since they can copy the design of those toys rake in profit from fans who liked the toy from the company that took the initial risk, and improve on the design. (which is pretty much what bandai did with the Monster. lol)

Half the work is done! They can look at sales of the 3pp guy's stuff, make a enhanced version of it and make money selling this to the same people who bought the 3pp one.

You got to look at this realistically. You would never have stuff like the VF-4 if it was not for risk. Risk that companies like Yamato took for the fans. Now the same logic can apply to the 3pp. You may never see the vf-9 or the variable glaug unless someone else absorbs the risk first and acts as a way to test desire for that mecha.

If these companies don't like risk due to being too conservative and safe, there is high possibility you will never see them realised at all. It's just like the pioneers in Macross Plus: they take risks to do the experiments and then you see benefits later when the mass production crap is made after the dangerous testing is over. The character myung is urging the two test pilots to please be careful and stop doing dangerous and reckless stunts, but the test pilot is saying "how do you know its dangerous until you try it? You might discover something that nobody tried before and then realise dreams by going after the unknown and solving mystery". The myung character is defeatists and wants to do safe things but progress is determined by the guy that "reckless" and tries the unsafe stuff. Inventors would never get anywhere just copying what already exists would they?

Look at this from a realistic perspective please. It happens in the software industry: some dude comes up with a cool game. You see millions of clones of it to capitlise on the idea. And the clones rake in money from the guy who made the original version of it and took the risk of developing something that might not have sold. But businesses gain from the idea.

I dont see any reason to think that a third party unlicensed product can be bad since the guys making it can only produce so much at any given time right? (they are too small whereas the toy giants are big)

Bandai has lots of profits from gundam and macross.

Arcadia get there money charging premium prices.

Meanwhile, why not give the new guys a chance to do stuff that isn't even attempted yet by any toy company? Maybe it does well enough to PROVE to the suiits who make all the decisions that there is interest in unpopular mechas so that they can finally decide to make the toys for the fans after seeing the money fans are pouring into these third party toys? The reason they don't do the unpopular stuff is they are like Myung and scared to get hurt. But how do they know they will get hurt unless they try it?

They won't try it, so there is very little reason to fear them losing money. The solution is let the third party be the test pilot and test if these things can even sell. Then after they show that there is interest, the big boys can come in with their official stuff which has superior quality and durability and design etc and everyone can win.

Edited August 27, 2014 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

More talk about awesome Macross third party ideas!

1/60 Cat's Eye Recon?!!!

1/60 VF-1 Escape Booster!

1/100 Glaug with Glaug Booster. We have the Himetal at 1/100 so I would like to see enemy mecha for it to fight just like the 1/100 konig monster.

hikaru's rival was the pilot of the Glaug. Shame they neglect enemy rival characters. Max got his rival Milia through a 1/60 Qrau, but Hikaru didn't get 1/60 Glaug.

I think 1/100 is great for zentradi powered armor. (especially if they are made super posable)

I decided to vote in this poll and chose the option where it should be ok for mecha that is not already being done by the licensed companies.

The way I see things is businesses are hamstrung by needing to make big profits and this prevents us seeing the less popular things from the series since it is way too risky so that is a barrier to having them realised. But if after seeing unlicensed toys sell well, these big companies want to profit then they are going to ACTUALLY HAVE TO MAKE SOMETHING and get off their fat ass for me to care about them. You don't go into business without absorbing risk. I'm sorry but they don't deserve sympathy if they won't at least try to sell stuff that isn't already easy to sell.

You can't just sit on a property and not use it. Nothing will ever get done if there is no competing side to cater to the fans who express the interest in those risky items that is unlikely to see the light of day thanks to the reality of big business needing to make easy money in a low risk way for them to ever give a crap about such a tiny-but-devoted audience. Whatever money they potentially "lost" is outweighed by the neglect of the IP through lack of progress. You wouldn't have nice things if someone did not absorb the risk. Big guys don't want risk.

Edited August 27, 2014 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[no3Ljm]

I'm happy as long that it's not Bootlegs and Knock-Offs.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I would love a company that could make a VF-2SS 1/60... Well just a dream I guess!

One thing I remember Graham saying ages ago is that it's not going to be done because it would piss off Kawamori so they would never upset him by making toys of mecha in macross that were not accepted as canon in the macross universe. This was back when it was called yamato.

Now that bandai is doing frontier toys I wonder if they ever would do this? If not, yes I would buy a unlicensed toy if it were good.

Perhaps do a "chunky monkey" style toy first (go for durability over all other things) then over time they go for something with more realistic proportions and focus on getting it as good as the anime in posability and look.

There is plenty of money to go around since macross fanbase is growing. It's all about greed imo. You just got to time the release of your toy at the proper time. eg don't do himetals of mechas that are already getting 1/60 releases. Do some other mecha instead. Himetal line died because of yamato making the same thing at bigger size which would be on everyone's to-buy list. Of course at the time nobody had a desire for it. (expensive compared to a 1/60 vf-1) But it gained interest over time after the line is cancelled and now we are not getting the yf-21 and yf-19 hiMetal. crap timing! Same thing with the Beagle Ride Armor: it failed because everyone had spent thier money on the megahouse and cms ride armor which were no where near as good as the Beagle. But when the beagle came out people had nothing left in thier wallet. People had the money but it came out at bad time. Now we are not going to get other characters.

Edited August 27, 2014 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Newtype78]

But what would it mean to Arcadia and Bandai? Could you imagine what would happen to them if a U3P created replacement ankles joints or non-exploding shoulders..!? How would they charge us for a renewal/version 2/fixed product a few years down the line?

More seriously, I'm curious to know how well received U3P product is in Japan. That's where the greater market would potentially be.

I know you're joking around but you do make a good point. As I understand it, a couple of MW community members have work or had work available through Shapeways that fixed or improved functionality of some Macross toys.

While seemingly innocuous U3P products like joint replacement parts shouldn't raise the ire of the IP holder(s) but...you never know with businesses entities. At best, we can speculate on how a company behaves as an organization that is normally driven by business sensibility. These companies have responsibilities to investors so in some cases, the company itself may not care one way or another but if there's a matter that concerns the investors, then the company is forced to pursue further investigation or action into the matter.

I would also like to learn how Japanese collectors, at large, view U3P products or if U3P products are even on their radar to any significant degree. It seems like when that topic is discussed, there is often mention of the limited time licensing offered at Wonder Fest for garage kits but I can't recall much solid knowledge of the U3P scene in Japan as far as toys go.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Newtype78

[skullmilitia]

Not sure if you were here way back when a member here got a C&D from HG. I think his name was Spideyjerusalem or something along those lines. He was just a small time seller offering some import Macross products (I believe Yamato's) out of his house. HG came down on him and demanded he stopped selling and also to surrender all of his stock. He got a lawyer and fought them. The primary defense was to see the license that HG claimed gave them the right to Macross. Of course they refused to cough it up. People from here even donated to his cause for lawyer fees. I don't remember how it ended, but I do recall he had racked up quite a legal bill in the battle.

It boils down to who has the most money to waste on time and legal fees. Considering how poorly HG has handled the license (they actually tried to C&D Hasbro a year or so ago for the Jetfire/Skytriker vehicle!). I'd say they win in that area.

Accept they would be fighting international groups, that work in a country that is known for not being very strict on KO and infringements.

The only time China cracks down, is if the US company has an already strong presence in China (Nike ect.)

Even the almighty Apple, with billions more than HG, can't stop the bootlegs.

But again, we aren't talking about KO's, we are talking about designs. HG would have to prove these products confuse consumers with their product (lol what HG product). What I'm saying is HG doesn't have the power to stop the onslaught. Even Hasbro who at first when C&D crazy realized the 3P companies weren't affecting their bottom line. Left it alone, and even let the stuff into Hasbro funded conventions.

also, IMO If someone got a c&D from HG for selling this kind of product, I would gladly donate to the legal fund. No better way then to make HG look

stupid then to challenge their supposed "right" to everything Macross.

[technoblue]

Replacement parts were a life saver for me. Bandai, Arcadia (and Yamato before them), do not cater to international customers. Therefore, the customer support that Japanese customers are likely to receive, and do receive, for their purchases is a step above anything someone importing from North America, Europe, Australia, or any other region might receive (short of getting assistance from friendly Japanese fans).

Regarding IP issues (shouldn't this get it's own thread?)

The Internet is a great place, but it is rife with speculation. I appreciate the lawful good tone of those who are against unlicensed toys, but I don't agree with it. Just because someone creates a derivative without a Macross, Bigwest, or Harmony Gold trademark does not make it straight-up IP theft. This is a mismanagement of the actual evidence and the definition of Intellectual Property. To be true, IP disputes are quite involved and can even turn into costly lessons. Look at the recent dispute between Samsung and Apple as evidence. I agree that the morality question is more of a personal decision. No one can or should force anyone else into taking one view over another.

Regarding unlicensed competition

Takara/Hasbro has coexisted with licensed and unlicensed manufacturers. I think Macross products could coexist as well, even though Transformers have more weight than Macross. I do think Arcadia would have more to lose from direct competition than Bandai, though. Personally, I believe creativity stagnates without competition. Dealing with it is certainly one option. It's not a very good option for a community that could use more visibility, The world is organic and always changing. I think that is a good thing. Companies will come and go. The good ones learn to adapt. If Bandai and Arcadia are good companies, then they will adapt.

For those worrying about their toy collections, rest easy. This could become something or it could go nowhere. If it becomes something, then those collections may increase in value as popularity increases. My point is, no one knows what will happen. I would rather stick with the silver lining.

Edited August 27, 2014 by technoblue

[Newtype78]

Speaking of co-existing with licensed and unlicensed manufacturers/producers, Hasbro has recently partnered with Shapeways to create a sort of limited licensing opportunity for people who want to sell 3D printed work that uses select Hasbro IPs such as Transformers, GI Joe, and My Little Pony.

They use a web site called Superfanart for this initiative. The name is problematic as people have criticized it by saying "Why does fan art have to be licensed?" but I'll leave it at that. Such discussion belongs elsewhere.

An example used by the CEO of Shapeways to illustrate the breakdown of profit sharing goes like this(roughly, I know it doesn't add up exactly):

Hasbro receives a licensing fee in the way of 11.67% of the product's price.

The designer of the product receives payment of 21.67% of the product's price.

Shapeways receives 66.67% of the products price, which goes to manufacturing, materials cost, shipping cost, and basically running the virtual storefront.

Some people balk at Shapeways getting over half the profit but...is it really that unfair for what Shapeways provides as the manufacturer, shipper, facility operator, storefront administrator, etc.?

Also the designer gets just over 1/5th of the poduct's sale price. Do toy designers who work for companies normally get a 1/5th cut of all toy sales? I doubt it.

So how is this relevant to Macross and its potential 3rd party growth? Well, it could mean that in the future, there could be a viable option for IP holders to work with independent 3rd part producers for mutual gain. The Macross toy scene isn't exactly booming these days. We could benefit from the collective potential of the global creative fandom of Macross.

As already noted recently by Skullmilitia, it's very difficult to stop certain producers from doing what they do if they operate from a country like China. Instead of fighting a losing battle, why not try to approach the situation from another angle? Getting a licensing fee is better than getting nothing back when unlicensed 3rd party work is being sold in the marketplace.

[Guest davidwhangchoi]

freakin China bootlegs everything. they don't give a rats about anyone's work or IP, just want to make a buck for themselves telling themselves i don't hurt anyone while hiding in a corner. i hate people like that... but that KO lambor i have is real nice!

[Mechapilot77]

i kinda wonder if HG/Toynami will see this D-Style SDF-1 and do what they did with that GORAION (go lion) product....make it official and release it stateside (yes it IS coming)

Edited August 27, 2014 by Mechapilot77

[Arthurius]

I have yet to get a KO one day, of the MP cars or other MP out there or even of 3rd parties. I have plenty of 3rd party TF though, and some are really well built / painted / engineered for what they are, whilst others aren't. I am in for 3rd parties starting with simple Macross stuff. Yamato / Arcadia and Bandai have years of experience and bigger teams than a small 3rd party, so their engineering will be much more advanced.

That said, I want a 3rd party to make an attempt at a VF-2SS, even if it is a smaller size, say a 1/100, and it be affordable. Otherwise, who is going to make it?

[Silverstreak]

I don't think that the 3rd party Transformers explosion has really taken off in Japan. All you have to do is look at the location of the vendors. There aren't to many Japan based ones that stock 3rd Party stuff. Most of the market is Outside Japan (US, China are the biggest). So with that in mind and considering that the main Macross market is Japan, I don't think it will take off with anywhere near the pace of the TF market has.

Just speculation ofcourse

[anime52k8]

Here's a hypothetical question: would people be willing to accept unlicensed third party companies making high quality knock offs of official first party items that the original manufactures are no longer making? For instance, what if somebody started making exact replicas of the 1/48 VF-1, since we know Arcadia didn't even pick up the molds from Yamato and has no intention or revisiting that mold. Or, perhaps the VF-25 armor parts. as much as people wish they'd get a reissue, you know there's about a 90% certainty that bandai will never repop them, and the secondary market price is ridiculous right now.

[David Hingtgen]

I don't think that the 3rd party Transformers explosion has really taken off in Japan. All you have to do is look at the location of the vendors. There aren't to many Japan based ones that stock 3rd Party stuff. Most of the market is Outside Japan (US, China are the biggest). So with that in mind and considering that the main Macross market is Japan, I don't think it will take off with anywhere near the pace of the TF market has.

I very much agree with this. The 3P TF stuff is because of China primarily. North America is a side-market for most of the companies. Everything I've read is saying "Chinese TF fans are funding/supporting it"---they got the series later, grew up with it, and with more and more Chinese getting richer and starting businesses etc---they're now making the TF figures that they always wanted.

Macross, in China, doesn't have even 1/10 that fanbase AFAIK.

A 1/60 3P valk seems a long way off, if ever.

[Novareign]

If 3rd party companies start making better quality Valkyries then I'll support them. All i know is 3rd party TFers are awesome and the quality is outstanding. Now if their making super parts and armor then I'm most definitely down to support. Remember it's your money and what's important to you. Do you choose loyalty or quality? Do you pay $200 for a super part or say $50 for the same product?

[VALKYRIE ACE PILOT]

Let´s face it...Both Bandai and Arcadia seem to be decreasing their will to produce Macross toys, specially for those from the original series so it would be nice to bring fresh ideas to market though at the moment no one knows if a 3rd party Macross production could strike it, the way it has been happening with transformers.

[Novareign]

A positive out of this is it could force Arcadia and Bandai to improve quality and offer toys others cannot. It could cause innovations and more product from both companies.

[dodiano]

What will be the restrictions for 3rd party companies?? Apart from Logos? Why could I not make a VF-2SS for example and sell it as a third party and change name like transformers?? "THE V-2XS "

[GU-11]

What will be the restrictions for 3rd party companies?? Apart from Logos? Why could I not make a VF-2SS for example and sell it as a third party and change name like transformers?? "THE V-2XS "

As long as it's in China. Anything's possible in China.

[TheLoneWolf]

Here's a hypothetical question: would people be willing to accept unlicensed third party companies making high quality knock offs of official first party items that the original manufactures are no longer making? For instance, what if somebody started making exact replicas of the 1/48 VF-1, since we know Arcadia didn't even pick up the molds from Yamato and has no intention or revisiting that mold.

No, because even though the 1/48 line is dead, it could lead to confusion in the marketplace. I can see some unscrupulous sellers peddling knock-offs to unsuspecting customers as genuine Yamatos. And even if the knock-offs came with their own distinctive packaging, I'm sure some sellers would use knock-off parts in genuine Yamatos, and then pass them off as 100% genuine. eBay is flooded with Frankensteined 1/55's, I'd hate to see something similar happen to the 1/48's.

[skullmilitia]

You guys can't stray to far from the point though. With people worried about 3P products being haulted by HG.

It's not as simple as "Hey that's out trademark!".

By Law infringement only works if it confuses the consumer, between original and second party product.

HG has nothing like what this is, and they'd have to prove the TV SDF-1, looks too much like this SDF-1 looking

robot, that it's infringing on their marketplace (which they don't even have).

Again, HG has never been anything but bully tactic company. They just send C&D and hope you comply.

I highly doubt Frank would spend millions to combat a Chinese toy.

As far as BW is concerned, well.. to be honest if they got heated about product being sold outside of Japan, it might

be a wolf in sheep's clothing, because it would force them to officially document that HG does not own the rights to Macross

outside of the TV series. Then have BW claim imminent domain over the Macross trademark certifying it forever, and setting it free

from Hack Gold.

[jenius]

I was thinking about it today and I kind of felt like I supported 3P by buying and watching anything Robotech. Still, I'm going to keep my line in the sand where I'm only going to venture into "yeah, nobody else would make that' territory.

[Gakken85]

I support it just to stick it to HG.

frakk them all day and sideways.

If Bandai and Arcadia won't grow some balls on this and acknowledge their American fans, somebody else will.

3p fills gaps in markets. Macross has gaps.

Infringement? What about Bandai selling a 29 that's the same color scheme as Arcadia's 19? Or doing a D wing fighter the same time they are doing a VF-OD?

In the end, Mech toys are always going to be a niche, and not where a company brings in most of their money. And we all spend plenty of cash on Bandai and Arcadia.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Gakken85

[Lorindor]

I was thinking about it today and I kind of felt like I supported 3P by buying and watching anything Robotech. Still, I'm going to keep my line in the sand where I'm only going to venture into "yeah, nobody else would make that' territory.

Well, as I see it, buying anything Robotech at least indirectly supports Tatsunoko, for what it's worth. We are here talking about supporting companies that have nothing to do with Macross at all.

Takara/Hasbro has coexisted with licensed and unlicensed manufacturers. I think Macross products could coexist as well, even though Transformers have more weight than Macross. I do think Arcadia would have more to lose from direct competition than Bandai, though. Personally, I believe creativity stagnates without competition. Dealing with it is certainly one option. It's not a very good option for a community that could use more visibility, The world is organic and always changing. I think that is a good thing. Companies will come and go. The good ones learn to adapt. If Bandai and Arcadia are good companies, then they will adapt.

The problem with this is that the unlicensed products do not compete on the same terms as the licensed products. Without paying license fees, the U3Ps have the potential to compete with lower price points. Good for customers, yes, but remember that some of that license fee is going towards making new Macross anime productions. If unlicensed toys become too widespread, I can see how this could hurt the franchise, especially since the Macross toy market is so small and easily saturated.

[David Hingtgen]

Lower price points? That is totally not how 3P works.

[jvmacross]

Perhaps he meant that if either Arcadia or Bandai were to release a toy like the SDF-1 Makuros with the same specs and accessories....it would be more expensive? If so, probably.

[Lorindor]

Perhaps he meant that if either Arcadia or Bandai were to release a toy like the SDF-1 Makuros with the same specs and accessories....it would be more expensive? If so, probably.

Precisely. Thank you.

[Scyla]

I won't buy unlicensed Macross toys because my Macross funds are finite and I think that it is better invested in products from a small toy manufacturer called Arcadia.

With my transforming robots funds it is different because Hasbro only releases very/very tiny parts of their Transformers line in my country so even if I would like to buy main line Transformers toys I have to import them. So Hasbro is loosing no domestic sales due to my collection of toys. However the collector oriented Transformers releases come first after the transforming robots from independent toy manufacturers regular Transformers toys aimed at children come second. Due to finite shelf space my investment in regular Transformers toys is very little but I buy the stuff I can get and that fit in my collection.

I also think that --as David Hingtgen mentioned-- there is a difference between Macross and Transformers products. For a Macross product I want the version that is shown in the line art and I want it with all the appropriate markings in the right color with the correct accessories and the accurate transformation. And yes the designer of the Yamato VF-17 should go to hell for not including the markings on the Nightmare. ;)

A independent toy manufacturer that offers all of the points mentioned above is much closer to copying official and licensed goods than most of the manufacturer that produce transforming robots (I'm looking at you iGear). Not that one or the other is "more" illegal but I think it is more likely that the rights holders will strike against the first version of copy right infringement. In my eyes this makes it more of a gamble if an advertised product will be released or not.

I also think that much more individual artistic energy and engineering efforts goes into the so called 3rd party transforming robots toys than into this SD SDF-1.

I'm sure this makes me sound like a hypocrite to some but that's the way I see it.

I'm also aware that some of the transforming robots in my collection don't fit into my described modus operandi. Manly the Heart of Steel toys from MMC who are toys based on the illustrations of Guido Guidi (but I'm too much of a Black Prime/Skywarp/Shockwave fan to pass on these) and my FansToys bots.

Oh well maybe I should just preorder the SD SDF-1 because I'm such a hypocrite.

[Desty_Nova]

They should start small and make me some replacement triangles for my busted cannon fodder 171.

[xrentonx]

Now THAT is a good idea

Maybe go really small like this and it would revitalize the market on 171 CFs. Possibly build up good will and anticipation for a larger project down the line. Wonder how many 3P TF companies make the transition from small add on accessories to large full blown robots successfully...

Edited August 29, 2014 by xrentonx

[Arthurius]

Yes Scyla, you should PO that SD SDF-1, but because he looks so cute / awesome . I just hope the quality / paint will be there and this wont be a Kronos nightmare, but I doubt it, since the producer is sending samples for review, so they must be serious.

Oh by the way, so you have FT and MMC products (which happen to be my top 2 3rd party TF makers), do you have the Feralcons and some FT and FP dinos? .

Edited August 29, 2014 by Arthurius