Why did the VF-1S go from ¥10,290 in 2012 to ¥16,800 in 2013?

[YF-29 Durandal]

Theres some serious inflation right there, bro.

[SaitouSad]

Well.. they probably figured, "If Bandai can get away with charging 14,000 yen for a Valk, then so can we!" just kidding, I don't know, but I would hazard a guess that it is a mix of several factors, along with market demand.

I missed the very brief period before Yamato's closure where Valks were much cheaper and easier to procure. It's what got me down this slippery slope anyway Should have picked up a few more Yammies while I was at it.

[aceoftherebellion]

Seriously. It's kind of offputting, seeing these inflated pricetags, but I can't claim to know the workings behind things. The hubub with Yamato and the switchover couldn't have possibly helped things, though. I'm with you in wishing I had picked up a few more things when I had the chance (stupid sexy SDF-1 why do I not own you) but urgh.

[anime52k8]

inflation, increased cost of labor, increased materials cost, and the old price wasn't profitable enough since the company that made them went bankrupt.

[aaajin]

I hope the companies wont come to a conclusion that Macross is just not profitable.

On one end the companies will lose its profits to stay afloat with low MSRP, and on the other end, high MSRP will deter non-fan from buying, hence greatly constraining the number of potential customers. There has to be a narrow band between the two extremes where its a win-win for both parties.

But seeing how Bandai was able to milk molds upon molds, despite their higher than Yamato's MSRP, is a positive trend for the franchise. So hopefully people would keep buying until there is nothing to milk anymore.

I wonder why is Arcadia holding out in mold milking activities, esp for the 19, unlike Bandai?

[YF-29 Durandal]

Didn't Arcadia say that they will do one new mold and four old molds per year? Or something to that extent... sounds a little bit too cautious to me.

[Knightdramon]

It is cautious and they would be well advised to do so.

Just remember that the fandom [however limited we may be] ended up on a "wait until it hits clearance" circa early/mid 2011 or so. The only valk I got at a full price was the VF1S Max [retail] when it came out. Everything else was bought at 40-60 percent off.

The only valkyrie in recent years [from Yamato] that sold out at retail was the VF4G.

With that being said, yes, I fully support Arcadia's more or less one new mould per year, if it means keeping them in business.

And generally speaking, Bandai can afford to milk moulds [VF25 and 29 thus far] because of their smaller pricepoints. The new YF19 is uber popular as the YF19 flown by Isamu, not much else. And it carries a much higher pricetag than any of bandai's offerings.

[Gakken85]

Inflation.

Yamato wasn't charging enough after the economy dumped in 2008 and that's why they had to become part of Arcadia. I think they thought they could just print a ton to make up the difference, but I don't think that worked either.

They packed in a stand to add some value, but it's really about covering costs to make it viable to continue releasing pieces.

Now Arcadia is releasing made to order pieces to minimize costs, and charging more to make sure they can pay their people and make money.

It's never going to get cheaper haha.

It's the price people are fairly willing to pay, right around $150.

You look at Masterpiece transformers like Prime or Ultra Magnus and it's a reasonable price for a transforming piece.

Or look at Frontier by Bandai. They are roughly $150 (If you're not being gouged) and contain basically the same materials, size, and content.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Gakken85

[jenius]

You do realize the company that charged 10,290 went out of business right?

[sreichma]

Because we got a stand and option parts and less tampo printing. Also, because the Federal Reserve prints trillions of dollars out of thin air and then charges interest. If you charge interest on money you print, there is never enough money to pay what was printed off unless you print more. It's a Fiat debt based currency.

It's very well known that when Nixon ended the convertability of the dollar to Gold in 1971 that that the real purpose was to effect future Macross collectors.

Edited July 17, 2014 by sreichma

[chyll2]

it is just a matter of paying high prices now and in the future

or paying cheap now and no release in the future.

[jvmacross]

It's very well known that when Nixon ended the convertability of the dollar to Gold in 1971 that that the real purpose was to effect future Macross collectors.

[Mechapilot77]

the only thing that matters is

"It's the price people are fairly willing to pay, right around $150."

i'm not aware of their cost structure, internal company metrics or anything like that. it all starts with "if i make something like this, how much will people pay for it?". now knowing or guesstimating those two things people at the company do the math to see what makes sense in terms of "is this a viable business for us giving our cost and overhead"?

perhaps in 2008 they figured people were only willing to pay X amount. now in 2013 they figure people are willing toe pay 1.5X etc. Also we have NO CLUE whether or not the valk making part of the business ultimately caused teh "demise" of yamato, or if it was something else completely unrelated, or perhaps done for other reasons (texes, debts whatever).

[Sandman]

Yeah exactly. I not sure why people are assuming the price of the VF-1 was the cause of yamato demise. Personally I believe Bandai indirectly ran them out of business. Yamato was fine until Bandai started selling balls people wanted to buy. Because they limited stock people had to get their releases right at preorder time or else not get one. This put fans in the position of getting the Bandai's valks right away and waiting later for Yamato valks since they would still be available months after release. This led to people waiting for the yamatos to go on clearance. This also coincided with Yamato starting to release valks in the upper 200, lower 300 price range (VF-19, VF-17). This encouraged waiting for clearance sales. Read the threads back then. Every second post would be mentioning holding off buying until a clearance sale. There's probably more to it as well but I don't buy that the VF-1 was being sold too cheap.

[treatment]

Theres some serious inflation right there, bro.

Less capital to start and no factory-discounts/influences in China pushes prices up significantly.

Yeah exactly. I not sure why people are assuming the price of the VF-1 was the cause of yamato demise. Personally I believe Bandai indirectly ran them out of business. Yamato was fine until Bandai started selling balls people wanted to buy. Because they limited stock people had to get their releases right at preorder time or else not get one. This put fans in the position of getting the Bandai's valks right away and waiting later for Yamato valks since they would still be available months after release. This led to people waiting for the yamatos to go on clearance. This also coincided with Yamato starting to release valks in the upper 200, lower 300 price range (VF-19, VF-17). This encouraged waiting for clearance sales. Read the threads back then. Every second post would be mentioning holding off buying until a clearance sale. There's probably more to it as well but I don't buy that the VF-1 was being sold too cheap.

Possible, but not quite as simple I reckon.

Yamato was not making and selling Macross-toys exclusively.

They have had other lines which were not quite as profitable as their Macross-line.

[EXO]

I can't think of a way to answer this without someone else taking it to a political level... and no, not because someone posted Nixon.... I'm just keep thinking of the cost of manufacturing in China isn't what it was before.

Oh well, without getting into details, I guess I'll just watch the thread and make sure it stays in line.

[Kanedas Bike]

I can't think of a way to answer this without someone else taking it to a political level... and no, not because someone posted Nixon.... I'm just keep thinking of the cost of manufacturing in China isn't what it was before.

Oh well, without getting into details, I guess I'll just watch the thread and make sure it stays in line.

Good luck.

-b.

[no3Ljm]

One factor perhaps is cost of production too. Price increases on materials, oil, gas, labor, etc adds up on the equation too.

[locidm]

Yen rate in 2012: 77 yen per USD

Yen rate in second half 2013 / 2014: 100 yen per USD

Based on above:

2012: 10290 yen = 133 USD

2014: 16800 yen = 168 USD

note that fluctuation in yen vs. USD isn't due to USD value swing, but due to yen value swing.

Then, take into factor of Inflation rate of 3%:

2012: 10290 yen = $141 USD with 2 years of inflation of 3%

2014: 16800 yen = $168 USD

Then, add on general increases in costs for factories in China, and the cost of the stand, and you're there.

Edited July 17, 2014 by locidm

[aceoftherebellion]

I seem to recall an economic report that high-yen value is especially hard on japanese business since it has a negative impact on their supply chain thanks to importing and exporting, so that makes a lot of sense actually.

[Renato]

Gakken85, do you have sources for that? AFAIK Yamato/Arcadia never revealed the reasons why they closed their doors. Yes, we can make some intelligent and accurate guesses, but I'd advise against stating those as fact, just in case.

I think the price increase probably has more to do with two things.

1) The cost of materials and manufacturing. Look at Transformers (even though I would stay away from comparing them to Valks in general), they are getting smaller and more hollow because of this. Rather than cheapening out and making the VF-1S out of crappier materials, Arcadia are just charging more, and adding a few extra options for padding so you don't feel quite so cheated.

2) The price of acquiring the molds. Yes, they had to purchase the assets again, because Yamato and Arcadia are not the same company, and that costs a lot of money. I have no idea how much, though.

And this bonus one is purely a guess -- Licensing costs may have gone up. Back when Yamato first started, Macross really was not profitable. Since the success of Frontier, which really took off after Yamato's 1/60 v2s were out, BigWest may be charging more for the use of the design likenesses in merchandising. I know for a fact that they insisted on increasing the price on some of Bandai Visual's products.

[jenius]

I don't know, the costs of acquiring the molds might not have been very high. The molds were well-used by that point. Yamato would have depreciated them quite a bit. I do think the licensing part is probably a big part of it. The license was non-transferable so Arcadia had to acquire the license from BigWest. There would have been a lot of goodwill from BW toward Yamato but BW wouldn't just give the license away and if a third party showed interest in the license then the price could have gone up quite a bit from what Yamato paid to what Arcadia paid. There's also lots of economy of scale stuff to consider. Arcadia doesn't have a large number of products so the denominator of the overhead cost function is smaller per product. Arcadia also wouldn't receive any preferential treatment that an established company with any volume would receive from creditors or suppliers.

I also do reject the starting price. I don't think you can use a company that went out of business as a barometer. We know they didn't go out of business because they were sick of Macross. Presumably they went out of business because cash in was less than cash out. If cash in was insufficient than it's not crass to suggest that perhaps Yamato wasn't pricing well.

The downside to all of this would almost certainly be far fewer Arcadia VF-1 variants. They know higher prices will reduce sales volumes so they're going to have to stick to the heroes. We also don't know if they could afford to lock down the SDF Macross license for long with whatever start-up funds they had. Hopefully we get some news soon on other releases.

[Gakken85]

Gakken85, do you have sources for that? AFAIK Yamato/Arcadia never revealed the reasons why they closed their doors. Yes, we can make some intelligent and accurate guesses, but I'd advise against stating those as fact, just in case.

I think the price increase probably has more to do with two things.

1) The cost of materials and manufacturing. Look at Transformers (even though I would stay away from comparing them to Valks in general), they are getting smaller and more hollow because of this. Rather than cheapening out and making the VF-1S out of crappier materials, Arcadia are just charging more, and adding a few extra options for padding so you don't feel quite so cheated.

2) The price of acquiring the molds. Yes, they had to purchase the assets again, because Yamato and Arcadia are not the same company, and that costs a lot of money. I have no idea how much, though.

And this bonus one is purely a guess -- Licensing costs may have gone up. Back when Yamato first started, Macross really was not profitable. Since the success of Frontier, which really took off after Yamato's 1/60 v2s were out, BigWest may be charging more for the use of the design likenesses in merchandising. I know for a fact that they insisted on increasing the price on some of Bandai Visual's products.

Sources for what? It's common knowledge that there are Wide market releases and made to order ones. Yamato was making tons of stuff in the 08's. Giant Votoms, Chogokins, Zoids, and Valks. Not to mention the naked chicks. Everybody was going buck wild. They had their hands in lots of pies you must remember, even an American office and web store. Oh and don't forget everybody's favorite redheaded step child the Destroid.

Lets not forget too, that they perfected the mold.

They took us from the VF-1 V1 to the VF-1 V2 30th. Think of all the money lost there, and the balls it took to scrap the first mold. Not to mention the M7 molds too. Broken shoulders. Broken legs. All the other tweaks.

I dare say that if the VF-1 V1 had happened around 2008, we'd have never seen a V2 and the entire landscape of this hobby would be very different.

Now you have the fact that that company is gone and Arcadia is continuing the passion for Macross without the other properties to consider. It's a narrow focus of VF-1's and the labors of love that Yamato had on the back burner like the VF-0D and the YF-19 rework.

My source for the $150 number is the going rate for a lot of the Arcadia and secondary market valks on Man, AA, ect. And what Arcadia was asking.

I'd say the biggest thing isn't molds or materials, Plastic and the little bit of diecast isn't super rare as of yet, it's where they make the toys. Most of the factories are being pushed into Vietnam and such and out of China. The China of 2008 isn't the China of 2014.

They are cutting corners on tampo but I can't tell that the plastic is any crappier than before. It's a different color, as they aren't using the grey that Yamato used.

Also, think of it this way. Takara is a huge company, and has one of the biggest toy properties in the world with Transformers. Their Masterpiece line is still a niche. Why aren't they pumping out Mp's every month? Because it's costly and it takes time.

Just be happy Arcadia exists, take what you can and pay the price bump

Edited July 18, 2014 by Gakken85

[Guest davidwhangchoi]

Yen rate in 2012: 77 yen per USD

Yen rate in second half 2013 / 2014: 100 yen per USD

Based on above:

2012: 10290 yen = 133 USD

2014: 16800 yen = 168 USD

note that fluctuation in yen vs. USD isn't due to USD value swing, but due to yen value swing.

Then, take into factor of Inflation rate of 3%:

2012: 10290 yen = $141 USD with 2 years of inflation of 3%

2014: 16800 yen = $168 USD

Then, add on general increases in costs for factories in China, and the cost of the stand, and you're there.

+1

i think i always remind people of this factor but there's always a short sighted person looking in the past and says "damn look!!! how come it was so cheap compared to now."

i guess some looked into 1960 said damn!!! look big mac's, they were only 25 cents. and an archie comic was 5 cents. wow! look at the price now... comics are 4.95 an issue...

[Gakken85]

The Hulk was $75 cents when I was a kid in the 80's

[treatment]

Gakken85, do you have sources for that? AFAIK Yamato/Arcadia never revealed the reasons why they closed their doors. Yes, we can make some intelligent and accurate guesses, but I'd advise against stating those as fact, just in case.

Don't worry about what he said.

He's just making stuff up.

[Mommar]

Yen rate in 2012: 77 yen per USD

Yen rate in second half 2013 / 2014: 100 yen per USD

Based on above:

2012: 10290 yen = 133 USD

2014: 16800 yen = 168 USD

note that fluctuation in yen vs. USD isn't due to USD value swing, but due to yen value swing.

Then, take into factor of Inflation rate of 3%:

2012: 10290 yen = $141 USD with 2 years of inflation of 3%

2014: 16800 yen = $168 USD

Then, add on general increases in costs for factories in China, and the cost of the stand, and you're there.

Ooooooo, somebody did the maf!

[Gakken85]

( ͝° ͜ʖ͡°)ﾉ ('ºل͟º)ノ⌒.[̲̅$̲̅(̲̅ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°̲̅)̲̅$̲̅] ᕙ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕗ

[Valkyrie addict]

Supply and demand. Not enough supply, too much demand now since everyone bought them when Yamato went bust.

Similar reason the 1/100 Bandai Hi metal line died. Not enough demand, oversaturation by Yammie.

[Kanedas Bike]

+1

i think i always remind people of this factor but there's always a short sighted person looking in the past and says "damn look!!! how come it was so cheap compared to now."

i guess some looked into 1960 said damn!!! look big mac's, they were only 25 cents. and an archie comic was 5 cents. wow! look at the price now... comics are 4.95 an issue...

Well I remember when gas was .79 a gallon for unleaded regular (when I started driving).

And kudos to locidm for doing the inflation comparison.

Never really understood why the need to complain about the price of this, that or the other. Just consume less, or don't consume at all. Problem solved (at least in my head ).

Even when Yamato was in business I didn't buy every one of their releases, it was too much to keep up with, and with Arcadia my spending habits will probably be the same, especially with the VF-19 Kai.

-b.

[Vagabond Elf]

It's very well known that when Nixon ended the convertability of the dollar to Gold in 1971 that that the real purpose was to effect future Macross collectors.

I usually let the effect/affect error slide, because picking on people's grammar is mostly pointless and that specific one is well on its way to becoming a legitimate regional variation... but this one is too funny, so I have to call it out:

This sentence is actually saying that Nixon unhooked the USD from the Gold Standard in order to create future Macross collectors. And it makes me imagine him in the White House, surrounded serious men in dark suits, saying "Gentlemen! We will end this wave of social unrest by importing Japanese toys, and distracting all the young men with them!"

/crickets

...well, I thought it was funny.

[YF-29 Durandal]

+1

i think i always remind people of this factor but there's always a short sighted person looking in the past and says "damn look!!! how come it was so cheap compared to now."

i guess some looked into 1960 said damn!!! look big mac's, they were only 25 cents. and an archie comic was 5 cents. wow! look at the price now... comics are 4.95 an issue...

This is about a 63% price hike in a single year. A single year. 63% price hike.

Edited July 23, 2014 by YF-29 Durandal

[KH355hamdi]

Low demand and high tooling cost. Need to offset a little for profitability. And inflation also affect material cost.

[YF-29 Durandal]

But it's the same old mold and the inflation would be the japanese yen vs the chinese yuan and not vs the american dollar.

Edited July 23, 2014 by YF-29 Durandal

[technoblue]

I usually let the effect/affect error slide, because picking on people's grammar is mostly pointless and that specific one is well on its way to becoming a legitimate regional variation... but this one is too funny, so I have to call it out:

Heh. What?

OT: It's clearly a typo. Effect and affect are often confused or reversed, especially if English isn't one's first language (which applies to a number of members on this very forum). I'm unsure whether the evolution of language applies here, but I agree that it is funny if you pay attention to those details.

Edited July 23, 2014 by technoblue