Robotech Academy - You want a new Robotech series...?

[jenius]

Why would including Rick Hunter be at all dangerous? He has a different name from Hikaru Ichijo, he'd be older so he'd have a different look, and the story goes in Macross that he went on to act as Skull Leader whereas in Robotech he goes on to become Leader of Everything Ever off Earth. I don't sniff anything dangerous at all about Rick Hunter being used. Slap glasses on him, give him a little gray hair over the ears, or give him a scar. Problem solved.

Edited July 19, 2014 by jenius

[terry the lone wolf]

That's the fun part... they're ALL Harmony Gold's. Just at varying levels of "revisionist history" over the years. The one that I'm referring to is the oldest version, back before they started in with the retroactive arse-covering. Their original claim was that the Tatsunoko-supplied writers couldn't get their heads around the Robotech version of things, and tried to address the problem by relating everything to the original shows instead.

Every version of every failure story ultimately gets progressively revised by them to make them look better and displace blame to other parties. A few years ago they changed their tune from "Robotech: the Untold Story did poorly with test audiences" to "the test audiences loved it but the distributor didn't".

Kinda makes me wonder how they're going to try and dress the Robotech Academy failure up. They almost always tart the flops up with something about how it was a fantastic idea brought down by circumstance. It's gonna be hard to put a bow on a lack of support from the backers in the likely event they don't break $500k (and projections suggest they might not even break $300k!). Will they blame Creavision for not faithfully executing Carl's vision? Will they blame the backers for not supporting it enough? Or will they actually admit fault on their part for once?

Please send me the link that refutes everything I said. I love to know the "TRUE" story outside of HG's revisionist history..

[Seto Kaiba]

Why would including Rick Hunter be at all dangerous? He has a different name from Hikaru Ichijo, he'd be older so he'd have a different look, and the story goes in Macross that he went on to act as Skull Leader whereas in Robotech he goes on to become Leader of Everything Ever off Earth. I don't sniff anything dangerous at all about Rick Hunter being used. Slap glasses on him, give him a little gray hair over the ears, or give him a scar. Problem solved.

Copyright-wise, it's all a question of how close his appearance is to the original Macross designs by Mikimoto. They redesigned him once for Robotech II: the Sentinels, but there were still some visible cues to who it was supposed to be (his crestlike hairdo), even though his wardrobe was different. Ever since their legal slip-up in the early 00's, they don't seem to think even that major redesign from Robotech II is far enough from the original to be "safe", hence the use of Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles to go dispose of anyone too familiar to use and present totally new, nothing-in-common redesigns of the ones who were too important for them to dispose of. The familiar-but-distinct thing is ALWAYS a legal minefield.

The problem is that, given the overwhelmingly negative reaction to those redesigns on Robotech.com and elsewhere, their new look didn't go over well. It left them in a pretty awkward place, so they have a choice between taking a risk and making him look more like his Mikimoto origins or keeping his Hideo Kuze-clone look and alienating the long-time fans who are the ones doing all the funding of the project.

Looking at what they've done with Emerson, their attempt to Macross-ize the design (or at least his uniform), it definitely makes me think that "Rick" won't put in much of an appearance. All to the better, the fans'll feel less betrayed if Harmony Gold doesn't go for bait-and-switch again and focuses mainly on the new cast. They tend to miss the characterization when it comes to the holdovers from the show.

EDIT: On a related front, why aren't they trying to create an original ship design based on the Southern Cross aesthetic the way they did for the Shadow Chronicles movie with a MOSPEADA-esque ship? That seems like a no-brainer, but instead they made that ugly mess...

Edited July 19, 2014 by Seto Kaiba

[Einherjar]

Banking of nostalgia only goes so far. They're probably hoping for Transformers-type response.But yeah, likely the majority of the backers are people who do not know anything and have no interest in what HG has done. They see a news article, say "wow", maybe visit the KS page, maybe donate, and then move on. They won't read the comments, just hit that "Donate"-button. And they're not going to care.

That makes me feel sadder for Creavision, being stuck in the middle of all this either by choice or still genuinely unaware of the same things as those backers and possibly having to confront the ugly parts on the production side.

[jenius]

Copyright-wise, it's all a question of how close his appearance is to the original Macross designs by Mikimoto. They redesigned him once for Robotech II: the Sentinels, but there were still some visible cues to who it was supposed to be (his crestlike hairdo), even though his wardrobe was different.

There are plenty of characters in anime since Macross that you could say resemble characters from Macross. HG would not have to tread very lightly here especially given the fact the series wouldn't take place a year after the events of The Macross Saga. The only characters that would prove really problematic would be the ones with shared names. I have no idea what they'd ever do about Minmay.

The problem is that, given the overwhelmingly negative reaction to those redesigns on Robotech.com and elsewhere, their new look didn't go over well.

People didn't like the character designs in Shadow Chronicles. Rick was one of those designers but pinning that back on restrictions about how he COULD look is a leap too far. People didn't like Shadow Chronciles' treatment of Rick because he was dangled like a carrot and then barely featured. No one is expecting The Macross Saga Rick to step out in Shadow Chronicles.

HG would be smart not to focus too closely on Rick so they can try to steer the audience toward new characters. Unfortunately, we learned in Shadow Chronicles that they're not very good at giving us new characters to care about.

I wish this kickstarter was "We're going to try to redo all 85 episodes of Robotech, this time with our own animation, so we can tell the story with fewer inconsistencies and replace The Masters arch with The Sentinels."

Of course, to do that they'd need all new mech designs, characters, and severely altered plot points but that'd be something I could get behind.

[Seto Kaiba]

There are plenty of characters in anime since Macross that you could say resemble characters from Macross.

Where that matters for projects like Robotech Academy is that it can't be chalked up to simple coincidence... because there IS a demonstrable link to the original designs. Copyright law with respect to derivative works is a bit of a mess when it comes to there being provable violations, but it's not something a company in Harmony Gold's situation wants to take chances with.

People didn't like the character designs in Shadow Chronicles. Rick was one of those designers but pinning that back on restrictions about how he COULD look is a leap too far.

It's actually something Carl Macek identified as a significant problem with Robotech sequel development in an interview he did for Robocon 10 that was published in the Summer '95 run of Robotech comics. Trying to make the characters separate and distinct from the copyrighted source material while also preserving some semblance of connection to who they're supposed to be isn't an easy balancing act for properties built on someone else's IP. Harmony Gold's non-answer as to why they totally redesigned all of their returning characters that weren't from MOSPEADA made no sense, but it makes perfect sense if you look to Macek's candid explanation from '95, and factor in the souring of relations between Harmony Gold and Big West.

If it wasn't an issue, why did they even give a facelift and new uniform to Emerson when the ASC is still a thing and he doesn't survive the 2nd war?

[terry the lone wolf]

When it comes to re-designing old Macross characters well..They already done it..Rick & Lisa were redesigned for not only Sentinels but also Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles. HG already cross that bridge the rest is a moot point..

[jenius]

Yeah, the redesigning characters whose names they changed seems a mountain of a molehill sort of thing. I can definitely see where it was more of a challenge back in the late 80s when they wanted The Sentinels to look cohesive with the original saga. That's not what's going to happen with a show made 30 years later though. They don't need to try to look like Mikimoto made the design because everything in the show is going to look like it was animated this decade (well... one hopes). I guarantee some fans are going to be like "WTF? He doesn't look like Rick!" but I'd also guarantee that the vast majority of fans are going to give that a pass so really all HG needs to do is slap Rick's name on a guy with brown or gray hair. What would be more intriguing to me is how they plan on avoiding the word Zentraedi.

Terry, don't forget that comics count as merchandising so nothing done in comics matters because HG has merchandising rights.

[azrael]

That makes me feel sadder for Creavision, being stuck in the middle of all this either by choice or still genuinely unaware of the same things as those backers and possibly having to confront the ugly parts on the production side.

Which is where the "Sit back and have some popcorn" comes in. We can explain and show people what HG has done on and off screen, but we can't tell people how to spend their money. People donated to the freakin' potato-salad guy. People will donate to this project. The best we can do is educate people on what they are donating to.

[Einherjar]

We should just agree that Tommy Yune isn't Mikimoto and people will have to settle for RINO (Rick In Name Only) Hunter in whatever legally mandated capacity he'll appear outside of comic books.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Einherjar

[Guest davidwhangchoi]

wow todays pledge is 59 bucks. come on hg guys! let's go to the checkbook.

Edited July 19, 2014 by davidwhangchoi

[Einherjar]

Which is where the "Sit back and have some popcorn" comes in. We can explain and show people what HG has done on and off screen, but we can't tell people how to spend their money. People donated to the freakin' potato-salad guy. People will donate to this project. The best we can do is educate people on what they are donating to.

Of course, but the people at Creavision, as genuine as Cesar appears, no longer have that luxury. If they haven't found out yet what a lot of us here know since the C&D, it might be a rude awakening what exactly they got themselves into. The honeymoon eventually ends. Edited July 19, 2014 by Einherjar

[Atharun]

Doesn't look like this will get funded. It is tracking progressively lower and lower.

[taksraven]

Epic fail by the looks of it if HG thought that they could use this stunt as a way to drum up RT popularity and get the Live-action movie out of development hell.

[VF-15 Banshee]

Looks like everything's up to SDCC. If Tommy & Company have something really substantive set up, it might be enough to get it funded. But I REALLY hope someone asks them how exactly the money is being distributed because I refuse to believe that a 22-minute episode needs $500,000.

[EXO]

I think people should just go to the panel to repeatedly chant "Macross! Macross! Macross!..." I'd back a kickstarter that would support that project.

[jenius]

I'm glad they did this as I probably would have otherwise skipped the Robotech panel at this year's Comic-Con. I'm really looking forward to hearing the sales pitch in person.

[technoblue]

This will be an interesting week. I'm looking forward to reading the recaps and impressions from those who can make it there.

[skullmilitia]

I really wish someone would go to the panel from here.

Raise thier hand during the Q'N'A and ask...

"Where is the drop off box for Shadow Chronicles returns?"

On a side note, has anyone in Japan told Big West that HG claims Plus and DYRL?

Is it possible HG has a chokehold, because big west doesn't know?

[jenius]

Those last bits were probably addressed in the locked licensing thread. HG trademarked "Macross" everywhere so BW definitely knows.

[Apollo Leader]

Doesn't look like this will get funded. It is tracking progressively lower and lower.

It looks like the take for Friday the 18th is the lowest point yet, just $2,925 pledged for the whole day. Right now they will have to average nearly $17,000 each day for the remaining 3 weeks if they are going to make it.

BTW, does anyone know what Tom Bateman has to say about all of this? According to his profile he hasn't posted on here in almost a year.

[JB0]

Which is where the "Sit back and have some popcorn" comes in. We can explain and show people what HG has done on and off screen, but we can't tell people how to spend their money. People donated to the freakin' potato-salad guy. People will donate to this project. The best we can do is educate people on what they are donating to.

Hey, don't hate on potato salad guy!

[Duke Togo]

BTW, does anyone know what Tom Bateman has to say about all of this? According to his profile he hasn't posted on here in almost a year.

Unless someone has been talking to him, I doubt Tom knows much about what's going on with this KS.

[Mr March]

Since a lot of this is being rehashed on the Kickstarter's comments page, complete with all the vitriol and half-truths that Harmony Gold usually brings to such discussions, they're not likely to stay ignorant for long. The hostility on the comments section is very likely helping drive down the number of backers AND discourage backers from increasing their pledges.

IMO, you are vastly overestimating the attention span and level of interest the majority of people have for any entertainment they consume. Also, most people have an amazing ability to filter. Especially when someone is trying to teach them something. They hear "fanboys" speak in a litany of anger and they tune out, the fandom equivalent of rap music.

If a tiny handful of casual fans backing the Robotech Academy Kickstarter actually learn something about HG, Robotech and their business from the kickstarter comments, we can take that miniscule victory and consider ourselves lucky. Expecting any more than that is not where our hopes should lie.

I've noticed that a lot of people that do back the project are almost habitual backers. They probably see the words Robotech and remember something that they haven't thought about in years. But that's probably exactly what HG is counting on.

I'm not sure about habitual backers, but I agree that a very significant percentage of the current RA kickstarter backers probably haven't been anywhere near Robotech in decades. If we simply step outside fandom for a moment we'd know how casual folks approach their popular culture; they never get into entertainment (or back into old entertainment) UNTIL it resurfaces into mainstream popular culture. This is why 80's remakes and live action adpations from the 1980s are all the rage. Almost everyone that paid to see Michael Bay's first Transformers movie hadn't read/watched/thought about anything Transformers since they were Generation X pre-teens. They acted on nostalgia alone. Kickstarter in particular has been a huge draw for casual fans to back all kinds of nostalgia products, from Reading Rainbow to Star Citizen to Wasteland.

I'd bet good money this is EXACTLY how Harmony Gold has managed to obtain "most" of their Robotech Academy kickstarter funding thus far.

[TheLoneWolf]

Actually, you're wrong about this.

Practically every failed or aborted Robotech project has seen Harmony Gold blame one of their business partners for the failure, usually in the form of "so and so screwed up, so the project failed due to circumstances beyond our control". For instance, they laid part of the blame for the failure of Robotech: the Movie on Cannon Films, the distributor, for insisting on changes to the film because they thought it had a "downer ending" and had "too many girls, not enough robots and guns" and their decision to toss the finished product because the test audiences hated it. When the Robotech II: the Sentinels project collapsed, they blamed it not just on the exchange rate crash, but on Matchbox withdrawing its sponsorship of the project and the problems they had with writers supplied by Tatsunoko (who thought Robotech was a confusing mess). After Robotech 3000's trailer flopped, Harmony Gold canceled the project and then blamed its cancellation on financial trouble at the studio, Netter Digital... before admitting it was actually a pretty terrible idea on their part too. The Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles "movie" was delayed, and Harmony Gold pointed the finger at the distributors they were talking to, omitting that the reason distributors were reluctant to take it was Harmony Gold was asking a lot more than they had any right to. When the negative fan response to the film cropped up, they initially tried to blame it on DR Movie, and then turned to the boogeyman of "Macross purist trolls". They haven't pointed any fingers at anyone over LLA, but I'd suspect that's because it's a glorified DVD extra and didn't have a standalone release.

No, I wrote "staff members." As in, people who are under the supervision of, compensated by, and report to Harmony Gold. Creavision falls into this catergory. The examples you listed included sponsors, distributors, etc., but not actual staff members.

Netter Digital was an exception. Though, as you said, HG did eventually come clean about it.

[Hoptimus]

What other account is there of the Sentinels production, outside of HGs?

None really but the earliest is probably the most accurate and that is what was in Robotech Art 3 that Seto is making a nod too.

[azrael]

IMO, you are vastly overestimating the attention span and level of interest the majority of people have for any entertainment they consume. Also, most people have an amazing ability to filter. Especially when someone is trying to teach them something. They hear "fanboys" speak in a litany of anger and they tune out, the fandom equivalent of rap music.

If a tiny handful of casual fans backing the Robotech Academy Kickstarter actually learn something about HG, Robotech and their business from the kickstarter comments, we can take that miniscule victory and consider ourselves lucky. Expecting any more than that is not where our hopes should lie.

And look at the number of people donating at the <$100 level. Or filtering it down further, the <$50-level. Most people will not even blink donating at that level.

I'm not sure about habitual backers, but I agree that a very significant percentage of the current RA kickstarter backers probably haven't been anywhere near Robotech in decades. If we simply step outside fandom for a moment we'd know how casual folks approach their popular culture; they never get into entertainment (or back into old entertainment) UNTIL it resurfaces into mainstream popular culture. This is why 80's remakes and live action adpations from the 1980s are all the rage. Almost everyone that paid to see Michael Bay's first Transformers movie hadn't read/watched/thought about anything Transformers since they were Generation X pre-teens. They acted on nostalgia alone. Kickstarter in particular has been a huge draw for casual fans to back all kinds of nostalgia products, from Reading Rainbow to Star Citizen to Wasteland.

I'd bet good money this is EXACTLY how Harmony Gold has managed to obtain "most" of their Robotech Academy kickstarter funding thus far.

Which is why I've said, let's wait until after SDCC. SDCC has a greater audience than AX and has a lot more general entertainment-focused individuals. We will see a significant increase in donations. Which is why I would use SDCC to point out issues with this KS-project to the masses. Like I said, the majority will not read the comments page. Many will just donate some sub-$50 amount and move on. They won't know that HG has been a patent troll to anyone and everyone and have just done the bare minimum to keep the franchise alive. Don't expect them to go digging around. Don't expect them to read.

[EXO]

If you look at the list of backers, most of them have over 50 projects pledged to. I made up the term "habitual backers" but that was just the short way of saying that there's not a lot of people there that specifically went to Kickbacker for the first time just to back RT:A. Well, so much for the short way of saying it.

Funny that most of the announcements on the comments are made by Robotechx... and not even written ALL CAPS. Love the way HG keeps their hands clean by sending out drones.

[Seto Kaiba]

When it comes to re-designing old Macross characters well..They already done it..Rick & Lisa were redesigned for not only Sentinels but also Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles. HG already cross that bridge the rest is a moot point..

Whether they'll keep using those designs is another matter entirely... since they were not well-received by the fans. I'm definitely curious to learn why they felt it necessary to radically redesign Emerson to the point of jettisoning any visible references to those ugly Southern Cross Army uniforms. After all, Harmony Gold established that the Southern Cross Army was a thing even before the destruction of Earth in their reboot comics and that the uniform or something very similar was in use by their brass circa '08.

Yeah, the redesigning characters whose names they changed seems a mountain of a molehill sort of thing.

Copyright law can be a pretty f'ed up field sometimes... and doubly so where derivative works are concerned. As Harmony Gold's sequel development basically amounts to unauthorized derivative works, they have to be extraordinarily careful. It might feel like they're making a mountain out of a molehill, but the law and common sense don't overlap as often as they should. Harmony Gold has to be especially careful because they're working with IP they don't own, and so these extreme measures might be considered "playing it safe", since they seem to believe that almost anything could provoke a lawsuit from Japan.

Doesn't look like this will get funded. It is tracking progressively lower and lower.

*impressed whistle* They're losing about 3-4% a day off their projected endpoint... and the projected upper bound is now below $400,000. I wonder if the record low from yesterday is, in part, due to the entirely-predictable "Rick might appear in this" update.

Looks like everything's up to SDCC. If Tommy & Company have something really substantive set up, it might be enough to get it funded. But I REALLY hope someone asks them how exactly the money is being distributed because I refuse to believe that a 22-minute episode needs $500,000.

By now, I think a lot of folks who would attend the convention panel are pretty well conditioned to think that Harmony Gold won't be bringing anything new or interesting to the convention. They're not exactly known for being great or entertaining presenters... but there is always the chance that it might catch the attention of the people using their panel to cadge the good seats for whatever's got the room next.

There might be a brief uptick, but I very much doubt SDCC will arrest the slow plunge toward oblivion.

No, I wrote "staff members." As in, people who are under the supervision of, compensated by, and report to Harmony Gold. Creavision falls into this catergory. The examples you listed included sponsors, distributors, etc., but not actual staff members.

Netter Digital was an exception. Though, as you said, HG did eventually come clean about it.

They pointed the finger at the Tatsunoko-supplied writers working for them in Sentinels via the Robotech Art books (their original official account of what went wrong), and sort of pointed the finger at The Idol Co. (though I don't think they've ever indicated who hired 'em, HG or Cannon) over Robotech: the Movie. There's a fun little admission of guilt from them when they blamed all of the bad female character design from Shadow Chronicles on Tommy via a terrible joke at one of the small early screenings that most people misinterpreted as a racist condemnation of DR Movie.

Since it's looking like Robotech: Academy is potentially going to miss its funding target by as much as 50%, I have to wonder who they're going to blame. Will it be:

• Creavision, either for preemptively poisoning the well by publicizing the fact that they'd received a cease and desist notice from Harmony Gold over their fan-film or for not doing a "good enough" job of the animation in the trailer to get attention.
• Palladium Books, for the ill will they've stirred up with their unapologetic mishandling of the Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter, which is an ongoing mess with all the bitterness over broken promises to backers about receiving goods before they went on sale to the public.
• Carl Macek, because he's too busy being dead to defend himself, and they've pushed this as being his brainchild.
• Tommy Yune, because he supervised the execution of Carl's alleged vision, and he seems to be the man who can do no right where many of the long-time fans are concerned.
• The fans themselves, for not digging deeply enough into their pockets to fund this.

[jenius]

I think their panel is at 7PM on Thursday. They shouldn't expect much traffic from people expecting to get good seats for whatever is next.

So if this does fail, the next Kickstarter should be someone trying to buy the international Macross rights and all associated trademarks from HG. They'll have proven they can't do anything more with the franchise so at that point it will just be a game of "So, what's it worth to you?"

Edited July 19, 2014 by jenius

[azrael]

I think their panel is at 7PM on Thursday. They shouldn't expect much traffic from people expecting to get good seats for whatever is next.

Yeah, it's on 7/24 @ 7PM. The panel following them is "The Definitive History of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles - A Look Under the Shell", which is about a documentary of the same name.

[Gerli]

They are failing because there are almost nothing to see: A ship and an asteroid/academy, two character designs... that's all? Show us some Academy interiors, all the main characters, some battles, some music at least.... they can't do this thing "on the road"... or can they?

is better if they can take the time to do something right, the level of organization and planning in this campaign is way lower than the FanFilm from Creavisión.

So if this does fail, the next Kickstarter should be someone trying to buy the international Macross rights and all associated trademarks from HG. They'll have proven they can't do anything more with the franchise so at that point it will just be a game of "So, what's it worth to you?"

I'm going to buy dollars in the black market to support this.

[Einherjar]

I think their panel is at 7PM on Thursday. They shouldn't expect much traffic from people expecting to get good seats for whatever is next.

Sounds like just a normal panel for them; always on the first day of a convention and swept under the rug before the actual big news things happen, hyped up but ultimately a mundane hour of old news, and sometimes a stalker-friend videos the whole thing for the Internet confirming how repetitive it is yearly. The only difference is that about $350,000 worth of other people's money is at stake.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Einherjar

[technoblue]

Since it's looking like Robotech: Academy is potentially going to miss its funding target by as much as 50%, I have to wonder who they're going to blame. Will it be:

• Creavision, either for preemptively poisoning the well by publicizing the fact that they'd received a cease and desist notice from Harmony Gold over their fan-film or for not doing a "good enough" job of the animation in the trailer to get attention.

I think this is a stretch. Creavision has shown that they can create content. At HG, what they need is the direction that focuses their talent. It's more of a management thing. I'm not sure how the unrelated C&D drama from earlier would enter into a failed kickstarter project. That bad PR is only interesting to a small, select group of people.

I think the better question would be, will HG keep Creavision employed if the Kickstarter fails? In other words, will they try another avenue to secure the pilot and reach the same end?

• Carl Macek, because he's too busy being dead to defend himself, and they've pushed this as being his brainchild.

This is getting a little dark, even for the humor in this thread. Although the memory of Macek may be fair game, the late Carl himself is gone. It would be really, really low for HG to blame him.

• Tommy Yune, because he supervised the execution of Carl's alleged vision, and he seems to be the man who can do no right where many of the long-time fans are concerned.
• The fans themselves, for not digging deeply enough into their pockets to fund this.

I think both of these points are the most valid in your list, seto kaiba. And as nice as it would be to see Tommy Yune being held accountable at HG, along with the aging staff responsible for Robotech after so many dead ends, the more likely result will be to blame the fans. I can already imagine the end:

An aloof HG staff shrugging their shoulders, noting that the nostalgia movement has passed them by once again.

Edited July 19, 2014 by technoblue

[camk4evr]

They pointed the finger at the Tatsunoko-supplied writers working for them in Sentinels via the Robotech Art books (their original official account of what went wrong), and sort of pointed the finger at The Idol Co. (though I don't think they've ever indicated who hired 'em, HG or Cannon) over Robotech: the Movie. There's a fun little admission of guilt from them when they blamed all of the bad female character design from Shadow Chronicles on Tommy via a terrible joke at one of the small early screenings that most people misinterpreted as a racist condemnation of DR Movie.

Carl Macek also blames the Tatsunoko-supplied writers on the comentary track for the Sentinels in the Protoculture Edition boxed set (of course the comentary is him reading from the Robotech Art books)