VF-27, YF-29 and YF-30

[Gubaba]

Oh, c'mon, Dude... simple yes or no... did the Gold Book say Kamujin died?

[Falconkpd]

Oh, c'mon, Dude... simple yes or no... did the Gold Book say Kamujin died?

Didn't Kawamori recently just say that "everything is canon and nothing is canon" or something along those lines?

Edited April 10, 2014 by Falconkpd

[Cdr Fokker]

Didn't Kawamori recently just say that "everything is canon and nothing is canon" or something along those lines?

This is how I've interpreted that stance:

While there isn't a set canon on specifics, there is a fixed/known/canon overall timeline of the key events, as well as canon identification of the key players. However, the exact actions taken by those players did not necessarily have to be what we have seen in one iteration or another.

For example, in the Macross universe, there really was a Space War I, and a Supernova Project, and a Protodeviln incident, etc. In each of those, some of the key players are well-known, as well as their overall contributions and/or positions. In Space War I, all of the main characters actually participated, and Minmay was certainly the key to ending the war. But the specific actions and relationships are up for debate; we only know their general roles and the outcomes, but the story in-between is somewhat up in the air. Hikaru and Misa end up together, but how did that relationship develop exactly - like SDFM or like DYRL? That is where there isn't necessarily a clear line.

The common comparison has always been to war films; they are all depicting historical events with varying degrees of accuracy. None are really "the way it happened" in terms of specifics, even though they may properly depict larger events correctly.

I actually applaud Kawamori for taking this approach; it allows for a lot more artistic flexibility (because things aren't completely set in stone) while still allowing the franchise to have some stability as well (since you can't completely rewrite things either). And it's also more realistic, if you think of all of the material actually being historical record - I'm not necessarily saying that they're all in-universe films, but rather that they reflect historical records rather than being actual fact. History is always interpreted differently in different records by different observers.

[Zinjo]

This is how I've interpreted that stance:

While there isn't a set canon on specifics, there is a fixed/known/canon overall timeline of the key events, as well as canon identification of the key players. However, the exact actions taken by those players did not necessarily have to be what we have seen in one iteration or another.

For example, in the Macross universe, there really was a Space War I, and a Supernova Project, and a Protodeviln incident, etc. In each of those, some of the key players are well-known, as well as their overall contributions and/or positions. In Space War I, all of the main characters actually participated, and Minmay was certainly the key to ending the war. But the specific actions and relationships are up for debate; we only know their general roles and the outcomes, but the story in-between is somewhat up in the air. Hikaru and Misa end up together, but how did that relationship develop exactly - like SDFM or like DYRL? That is where there isn't necessarily a clear line.

The common comparison has always been to war films; they are all depicting historical events with varying degrees of accuracy. None are really "the way it happened" in terms of specifics, even though they may properly depict larger events correctly.

I actually applaud Kawamori for taking this approach; it allows for a lot more artistic flexibility (because things aren't completely set in stone) while still allowing the franchise to have some stability as well (since you can't completely rewrite things either). And it's also more realistic, if you think of all of the material actually being historical record - I'm not necessarily saying that they're all in-universe films, but rather that they reflect historical records rather than being actual fact. History is always interpreted differently in different records by different observers.

Yes!

Kawamori likened the Macross productions and literature like "War Movies" or stories. Like a war movie, the overall events are based in historical fact, while the details are open to dramatic interpretation. So you can have SDFM and DYRL existing at the same time in the production canon because they are different interpretations of the same historical event - the Great Space War.

I agree with Cdr Fokker that ths recent position opens up the possibilities of many Macross stories. It also avoids the pitfalls the pre-Abrams Star Trek franchise faced. The problem where everything presented had to harmonize with the dozens of movies and series episodes that came before and it eventually painted the franchise into an uncomfortable corner. A corner that stifled innovative creativity for the franchise.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Zinjo

[Falconkpd]

So applying the above logic to the DYRL? Kamjin situation, in some continuities, Kamjin died, while in say, the Macross 2036 continuity, he survived his wounds.

EVERYONE WINS!

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

VF-27. It has the long range sniper weapon to go with it. Kill people in one shot and then disappear without anyone seeing you.

If you are a cyborg assassin who cares if you die you are barely human anyway? Probably the most deadly robot mode imo. All opinion of course. Screw stats. Dyson was able to avoid Guld's sophisticated brainwave control system missile spam in macross plus by simply killing the engines and pretending to be dead as he hovers and glides, while Guld cries like a little kid mourning his best friends passing; leaving himself open to an attack. It's all about who is piloting the machine. Low tech solution can sometimes beat hi tech weapons.

The ewoks (cuddly bears in a forest) beat the hardened stormtroopers in star wars FFS. Anything can happen. Maybe the machine malfunctions because the other side paid someone on the rival team to sabotage the vehicle and weapons. Didn't we see vf-11 gunpod jam in macross plus? And that is supposed to be mass production item too. Now imagine all the problems with the newer stuff?

Edited April 23, 2014 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Seto Kaiba]

VF-27. It has the long range sniper weapon to go with it.

Eh? The VF-27 doesn't have a long-range sniper weapon... its beam gun pod is a rapid-fire weapon, and the "beam grenade" mode isn't exactly precise or subtle. Functionality-wise, it's not any different from the beam gun pods carried by the YF-29 and YF-30.

I know Macross 30 substituted a beam sniper sort of affair for beam grenade mode so the gun's functionality would fit the game, but I don't think that's actually a thing...

Didn't we see vf-11 gunpod jam in macross plus? And that is supposed to be mass production item too. Now imagine all the problems with the newer stuff?

Once... once, in all the footage for the VF-11, do we see a gunpod jam. 's probably not something which any of the fighters the OP is concerned about need to worry about, since they're not firing bullets.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Seto Kaiba

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Eh? The VF-27 doesn't have a long-range sniper weapon... its beam gun pod is a rapid-fire weapon, and the "beam grenade" mode isn't exactly precise or subtle. Functionality-wise, it's not any different from the beam gun pods carried by the YF-29 and YF-30.

I know Macross 30 substituted a beam sniper sort of affair for beam grenade mode so the gun's functionality would fit the game, but I don't think that's actually a thing...

Once... once, in all the footage for the VF-11, do we see a gunpod jam. 's probably not something which any of the fighters the OP is concerned about need to worry about, since they're not firing bullets.

Well remember that bit in the movie top gun when the guy died after he ejected because of technical probs? That was not real either. Come on man. No excuses. Tech isn't as reliable when it hasn't been tried and tested for long time and had everyhthing patch fixed. Gunpod jamming is a major thing. Your life relies on it working. Same thing in the IT industry. It's best to wait until all the early bugs are dealt with and wait rather than be a guinea pig who encounters it the first. The was a whole scare that leading up to the year 2000 that when all machines encounter a y2k bug, society would collapse machines would go crazy and you'd lose all your records and other disasters like hospital equipment failing. Luckily it was all bullshit though.

But you know what? Life is cheap in the world of anime where a giant cannon can pretty much destroy armies of aliens in one single shot, maybe the rogue zentradi deserve to get a few kills at the start of the ova after all their losses in the space war I?

Edited April 25, 2014 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JerryM]

According to the Macross 30th game, the YF-30 is the latest and greates specs-wise. Highest speed, manuverability, firepower and armor.

You could say, the stock YF-29 is like a fully decked VF-25 with tornado pack. (but slimmed down). They managed to incorporate features of the tornado\armor pack into the core design of the YF-29: Wing booster, VTOL capabilities, integrated missile pods, integrated forearm canons.

They Improved the base engine, armor and Integrated fold crystals too(no need of a fold booster).

The Fast pack of the YF-29 adds extra firepower and speed to the already impressive base stats, without affecting too much the aerodynamics in atmospheric environment. No need to jettison when entering atmosphere.

The VF-27 is a more advanced fighter than the Vf-25. But not more advanced than the YF-29. A stock VF-27 was similar to a VF-25 with fast packs.

An advantage of the VF-27 was the cybernetic connection between pilot\plane. Another advantage was the firepower of the beam canon, but mostly great against Vajra.

If I had to pick one of the 3 to win a dogfight, I would choose the YF-29 with fastpacks and Isamu as pilot.

Only thing better would be Max in a blue Chronos.

[Seto Kaiba]

According to the Macross 30th game, the YF-30 is the latest and greates specs-wise. Highest speed, manuverability, firepower and armor.

That's in-game mechanics though... in terms of the objectively stated performance information, the YF-29's actually got a fair few areas of superiority over the YF-30. Engine power and thrust-to-weight ratio, for one. Armament, for two. Armor is debatable, as nothing is actually said WRT the YF-30's armor, but they both have variations on the fold wave system that enhances all their OTM systems.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Seto Kaiba

[azrael]

That's in-game mechanics though...

And the rule of thumb is NEVER TRUST IN-GAME MECHANICS. EVER.

[Mommar]

Could I ask a question? What is the official armament list for the stock YF-29, the Super Packed YF-29 (that would really only imply additional missiles) versus armaments for the YF-30, the VF-25 (Super/Armor/Tornado) and the stock VF-27 and Super Packed VF-27?

[Zinjo]

This is how I've interpreted that stance:

While there isn't a set canon on specifics, there is a fixed/known/canon overall timeline of the key events, as well as canon identification of the key players. However, the exact actions taken by those players did not necessarily have to be what we have seen in one iteration or another.

For example, in the Macross universe, there really was a Space War I, and a Supernova Project, and a Protodeviln incident, etc. In each of those, some of the key players are well-known, as well as their overall contributions and/or positions. In Space War I, all of the main characters actually participated, and Minmay was certainly the key to ending the war. But the specific actions and relationships are up for debate; we only know their general roles and the outcomes, but the story in-between is somewhat up in the air. Hikaru and Misa end up together, but how did that relationship develop exactly - like SDFM or like DYRL? That is where there isn't necessarily a clear line.

The common comparison has always been to war films; they are all depicting historical events with varying degrees of accuracy. None are really "the way it happened" in terms of specifics, even though they may properly depict larger events correctly.

I actually applaud Kawamori for taking this approach; it allows for a lot more artistic flexibility (because things aren't completely set in stone) while still allowing the franchise to have some stability as well (since you can't completely rewrite things either). And it's also more realistic, if you think of all of the material actually being historical record - I'm not necessarily saying that they're all in-universe films, but rather that they reflect historical records rather than being actual fact. History is always interpreted differently in different records by different observers.

Wait, wait, wait, Now for something completely different....

Kawamori has very recently said that all productions are "Alternate Universes"...

What kind of peyote is this man using??!!!

All I know is, that he needs to stop before he hurts himself....

Edited June 3, 2014 by Zinjo

[marthf1]

Well remember that bit in the movie top gun when the guy died after he ejected because of technical probs? That was not real either. Come on man. No excuses. Tech isn't as reliable when it hasn't been tried and tested for long time and had everyhthing patch fixed. Gunpod jamming is a major thing. Your life relies on it working. Same thing in the IT industry. It's best to wait until all the early bugs are dealt with and wait rather than be a guinea pig who encounters it the first. The was a whole scare that leading up to the year 2000 that when all machines encounter a y2k bug, society would collapse machines would go crazy and you'd lose all your records and other disasters like hospital equipment failing. Luckily it was all bullshit though.

But you know what? Life is cheap in the world of anime where a giant cannon can pretty much destroy armies of aliens in one single shot, maybe the rogue zentradi deserve to get a few kills at the start of the ova after all their losses in the space war I?

Goodness, simply because it's mass-produced doesn't mean it won't fail. It just means the manufacturing & operational failure rate will be acceptably low to some standard. Perhaps even to differing degrees. Same as in software, where a major release, as you allude to, only means it's in a stable enough state not to bug out or fail for some percentage of users.

Gun jams are still an issue. Notably, the M-16 & L85A1 used to receive plenty of flak over it & required decades to iron out via manufacturing or maintenance changes. Even 'dumb' bombs & shells have failure rates. One of note is the tragedy of events that lead to the CV-59 USS Forrestal's fire in 1967. Lots of bad decisions lead to the missile & bomb failures in that one.

As for Top Gun, according to the production interviews, the military consultant they utilized for the movie suggested that flat spin. The person went through a record of military accidents & that was the one the producers settled on. Naturally, the consultant's job is to eliminate inaccuracies with respect to military aspects.

Further, the person mentioned in the dedication right as the movie ends, Art Scholl, dies to it. Evidently, he was filming flat spin footage at the time. If there is something to complain about, it's loosing all four catapults at once. I believe each one is rated at 97% operational reliability, so while not impossible, it was....convenient.

Wait, wait, wait, Now for something completely different....

Kawamori has very recently said that all productions are "Alternate Universes"...

What kind of peyote is this man using??!!!

All I know is, that he needs to stop before he hurts himself....

What? Hasn't that been Kawamori's stance for years?

Edited June 6, 2014 by marthf1

[Zinjo]

What? Hasn't that been Kawamori's stance for years?

Nope, his stance has been that each production is a "Dramatic interpretation" of historical events. Now, every productions appears to be in a universe unto itself, further muddying the canonic waters...

I can learn to live with it, but some people here might see their heads explode anytime now....

Perhaps the M2 haters who can no longer dismiss the show as the red headed step child of the universe. It would appear that all of the shows are that now...

Edited June 7, 2014 by Zinjo

[Kanedas Bike]

Nope, his stance has been that each production is a "Dramatic interpretation" of historical events. Now, every productions appears to be in a universe unto itself, further muddying the canonic waters...

I can learn to live with it, but some people here might see their heads explode anytime now....

Perhaps the M2 haters who can no longer dismiss the show as the red headed step child of the universe. It would appear that all of the shows are that now...

Sorry to quote your post, I know that you're relaying news/discussion already had in other threads so my response is not directed at you.

That said, the whole each production is a unique universe unto itself is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read (related to Macross).

The fact that (in chronological order) Zero, SDFM/DYRL, Plus, 7 and Frontier have stories that are built and predicated on what happened in prior releases makes this alternate universe stance very irritating.

And while I'm not a fan of Macross 2 or 7 I don't hate them, they have their places in Macross-lore just like any other series or companion material (books, games, etc.).

And oh yeah, I choose the YF-29 or whatever...

-b.